Thai army chief: Political gatherings banned during UN chief's visit

[jayboy]

To help us all understand each others' viewpoints, I think it would be helpful at this point if the more vociferous amongst us declared exactly how the political struggles of this year have affected them in real terms.

For example, I know that some anti-red obsessives consider themselves to have either directly taken losses in monetary terms due to the violence, or have witnessed or been affected (or know some who has been affected) physically by the violence.

Personally, neither I nor anyone I know has been affected adversely in any way by the turmoil, so I find it easy to look for balance in arguments such as these. However, if either myself or someone I know had been effected badly by these events maybe I would find it harder to accommodate more balanced views.

I know part of the arguments may be based on 'what if the red shirts get in power', but for the sake of this discussion I think it helpful if we don't get caught up in conjecture about possible future events.

I'm not trying to diminish the integrity of any individual's grievances one way or the other, but I would like to know which of the regular contributors come to this topic without a personal axe to grind and which don't.

So in the interests of maintaining a constructive debate (if indeed it was constructive up till now), and adhering to the highest standards of public accountability, how about everyone declaring their vested interests?

Cheers.

Good question. Firstly how the protests have affected me personally this year:

Personally: My wife had booked into a clinic at Ratchaprasong a few weeks before the red shirts invaded, deposits all paid and preperation (injects, pills) had begun. Red shirts moved in a week or so beforehand giving us a 2km walk from clinic to transportation at Lumpini Park (I wrote about one walk to the clinic here). Not desirable but already financially committed. Anyhow, procedure failed - could of been for any number of reasons but obviously the walk and raised anxiety didn't help. Financially and emotionally draining.

Less personally but still significant: sis-in-law in labour and had trouble getting through the red barricade into Chula hospital where they had been booked in - this was around the same time the red shirts stormed the place. Ultimately resulted in turning around and going to Ramathibodi instead. Sis-in-law ended up giving birth in the car on the way there. He's fine now - hardly see him upset, in fact.

Anecdotal but my former place of employment is on Chid Lom which has been providing a 24/7 e-related service since 1998. Despite the infrastructure woes in Thailand it had still mostly managed to achieve this until the end of the rally when all communications lines in the area were cut - was then out for three days. Most traffic was relocated outside Thailand, however there's still downtime and resulting loss in business and customer confidence to consider.

I have lived in Thailand since 2001, married for the past three years. While Thailand has some maturity to go through politically I consider the current administration the (much) lesser evil.

In my 13 years of communicating via the 'net I have never seen the level of scummy tactics I've observed on this thread by a certain forum user, so am therefore hesitant to divulge any further personal details now publicly. There's always the PM button however...

Irritating for you no doubt, but in the overall scheme of things quite irrelevant.Get some perspective.

[Insight]

Irritating for you no doubt, but in the overall scheme of things quite irrelevant.Get some perspective.

Would a red shirt supporter put through the same sympathise? This has just reinforced a perspective accumulated since the date mentioned in the post.

[nicknostitz]

So, just to recap: It's a fake Nick Nostitz posting, but we need to discredit him just in case, right? Or something like that. What's the alternative?

Well, at least you've abandoned your attempt to proffer that I edit news and photos in a deceptive manner. Wise choice.

I simply questioned whether the poster purporting to be someone, by using that name as a Thaivisa ID, is actually that person. It certainly is a reasonable skepticism.

Whether or not that person has much credibility to begin with is a different matter and subjective, but there's probably a reason why that person isn't a salaried worker for any of the established and credible news sources and derives income from photographing prostitutes.

I am Nick Nostitz, but i guess you know that already and just want to wind me up.

There is a simple reason that i am not a salaried "worker". Let me explain you a bit about the media business - nowadays the vast majority of photographers working for western media are freelancers (and i still consider myself more a photographer than a writer as i started off as such, and only rarely write about other topics than the Red/Yellow issue). Companies that employ photographers are nowadays mostly the wire agencies. They do a very important job, but wire photography is just not my thing - running around with large tele lenses, taking images of mostly boring events, not being able to decide what i want to take photos of, and that in a very limited style that the agency dictates. I like to be my own boss, decide myself what i want to work on, and keep the copyright of my images. Nevertheless - i am a member of an agency, which represents my work, and that is Focus Agency in Hamburg. It has a very good reputation, is still an old style agency. Go and Google my agency, and read what the scope of their business is.

Other than having taken photos pf prostitutes and having published a book on the nightlife scene in Bangkok (making books after having spend years on a subject matter is personally very fulfilling, but financially a loss), i have in my past 17 years in my profession photographed almost any subject matter all over Asia for more magazines and newspapers than i can remember - that is where i make a (nowadays during the financial crisis meager) living off. Some of my photos of prostitutes, by the way, have been exhibited many times, such as in the Noorderlicht festival in the Netherlands, which is one of the more respected photo festivals in Europe. It has been years by the way, since i have last photographed prostitutes, i don't have the time, i have very little time presently for anything else than the Red/Yellow conflict. Once a while, seldom, i still take my old film cameras out, and for a day or so take images of more creative nature of different subject matters that i have put on hold as long as long as this Red/Yellow mess lasts.

I don't really care if some anonymous chap on the internet finds my work "not credible" - i love my job. Simple as that.

[Buchholz]

So, just to recap: It's a fake Nick Nostitz posting, but we need to discredit him just in case, right? Or something like that. What's the alternative?

Well, at least you've abandoned your attempt to proffer that I edit news and photos in a deceptive manner. Wise choice.

I simply questioned whether the poster purporting to be someone, by using that name as a Thaivisa ID, is actually that person. It certainly is a reasonable skepticism.

Whether or not that person has much credibility to begin with is a different matter and subjective, but there's probably a reason why that person isn't a salaried worker for any of the established and credible news sources and derives income from photographing prostitutes.

I am Nick Nostitz, but i guess you know that already

You would guess wrong in that case as that's not been established.

The bottom line on Thaivisa's Mr. Bean has also not been established.

I don't really care if some anonymous chap on the internet finds my work "not credible" - i love my job. Simple as that.

I'm happy for you, no matter whichever anonymous person on the internet you are.

[nicknostitz]

You would guess wrong in that case as that's not been established.

Well, this is quite easy to establish - go to any Red or Yellow Shirt protest, chances are quite high that you see me running around there with a camera, and ask me if i have posted these comments on ThaiVisa. Just don't bog me down in a political discussion, please, as i am working.

[Buchholz]

You would guess wrong in that case as that's not been established.

Well, this is quite easy to establish - go to any Red or Yellow Shirt protest, chances are quite high that you see me running around there with a camera, and ask me if i have posted these comments on ThaiVisa. Just don't bog me down in a political discussion, please, as i am working.

There's even simpler methods, which rightfully put the onus on the claimer to establish that.

A scanner and an assortment of Nick's documents would be a start to separate oneself from Mr. Bean.

[nicknostitz]

.

Edited October 30, 2010 by nicknostitz

[nicknostitz]

There's even simpler methods, which rightfully put the onus on the claimer to establish that.

A scanner and an assortment of Nick's documents would be a start to separate oneself from Mr. Bean.

If you insist... here is my press card, that should suffice. I have written "copy" over it, i do not want that somebody may misuse this document.

[Buchholz]

See? That wasn't so difficult.

[nicknostitz]

See? That wasn't so difficult.

And now, as a matter of courtesy, why don't you do the same?

Lets see your photo, and your real name, one of your documents.

[animatic]

Using a nik here is not tantamount to actually being the named person.

Some few use their own names, they by all appearances seem to be a minority.

It would appear the person using NN's name is actually NN.

His choice to use his real name in the open here.

Of course being anonymous here is also legitimate and there

is no reason one NOT using their real name should have to

out themselves in such a potentially violent environment as

Thailand is at present.

Edited October 30, 2010 by animatic

[Buchholz]

See? That wasn't so difficult.

And now, as a matter of courtesy, why don't you do the same?

Lets see your photo, and your real name, one of your documents.

I'm astounded you fail to see the difference.

I'm not proclaiming to be anyone... other than a fan of a Boston Red Sox pitcher.

I've never claimed Buchholz's picture is me or that it is my real name.

Still, you should feel good. You got one up on Mr. Bean.

Edited October 30, 2010 by Buchholz

[geriatrickid]

Well, this is quite easy to establish - go to any Red or Yellow Shirt protest, chances are quite high that you see me running around there with a camera, and ask me if i have posted these comments on ThaiVisa. Just don't bog me down in a political discussion, please, as i am working.

The person harassing you should think twice before embarking on a campaign of accusation, because he may permanently vanish from the forum this time.

If someone has a problem he can tattle to the the moderators. In any case, If you are who you claim you are, good for you. If you are not, then I think you should consider assuming the personna of someone more spectacularly hansum.

[Buchholz]

LOL @ characterizing a simple and reasonable request, totally at the discretion of the replier if he so wishes, as "harassment" and "campaign of accusation"

[philw]

See? That wasn't so difficult.

And now, as a matter of courtesy, why don't you do the same?

Lets see your photo, and your real name, one of your documents.

I'm astounded you fail to see the difference.

I'm not proclaiming to be anyone... other than a fan of a Boston Red Sox pitcher.

I've never claimed Buchholz's picture is me or that it is my real name.

Still, you should feel good. You got one up on Mr. Bean.

Interesting but not surprising.

You make a call on someone but lack the guts to do the same................

[Buchholz]

See? That wasn't so difficult.

And now, as a matter of courtesy, why don't you do the same?

Lets see your photo, and your real name, one of your documents.

I'm astounded you fail to see the difference.

I'm not proclaiming to be anyone... other than a fan of a Boston Red Sox pitcher.

I've never claimed Buchholz's picture is me or that it is my real name.

Still, you should feel good. You got one up on Mr. Bean.

Interesting but not surprising.

You make a call on someone but lack the guts to do the same................

Another who doesn't understand the simple and very obvious difference.

Amazing, but I guess it shouldn't be surprising.

[nicknostitz]

If you are not, then I think you should consider assuming the personna of someone more spectacularly hansum.

I am deeply hurt by this comment!

[Pi Sek]

OK - so hopefully we've established now that nicknostitz is indeed Nick Nostitz. Great. We've also done the topic to death already and it's clear that some minds will never be changed. I think we all know in our heart of hearts that both sides are wrong, but right-wrong is as strong an argument as black-white or indeed yellow-red.

Whilst I totally disagree with his point of view on the UDD protest and actually oppose it, I'd like to highlight the below post by a red sympathiser who has shown his intellect in many a post on Thaivisa over the last few weeks... another well written, constructive post, that detracts from the pseudo-fascism show by both sides on this forum (and, interestingly enough, also in Thai society):

To help us all understand each others' viewpoints, I think it would be helpful at this point if the more vociferous amongst us declared exactly how the political struggles of this year have affected them in real terms.

For example, I know that some anti-red obsessives consider themselves to have either directly taken losses in monetary terms due to the violence, or have witnessed or been affected (or know some who has been affected) physically by the violence.

Personally, neither I nor anyone I know has been affected adversely in any way by the turmoil, so I find it easy to look for balance in arguments such as these. However, if either myself or someone I know had been effected badly by these events maybe I would find it harder to accommodate more balanced views.

I know part of the arguments may be based on 'what if the red shirts get in power', but for the sake of this discussion I think it helpful if we don't get caught up in conjecture about possible future events.

I'm not trying to diminish the integrity of any individual's grievances one way or the other, but I would like to know which of the regular contributors come to this topic without a personal axe to grind and which don't.

So in the interests of maintaining a constructive debate (if indeed it was constructive up till now), and adhering to the highest standards of public accountability, how about everyone declaring their vested interests?

Cheers.

I have been affected by the Red Shirt protests indirectly. I do business in Thailand and the business environment here is certainly worse than if the protests didn't happen. But I don't think that has any bearing on my point of view (otherwise I would surely have felt the same after the 2005 and 2008 Yellow Shirt protests). The main reason that I don't accept the Red Shirt protest as valid is the root cause of the protest: they are in the place they are unhappily in because of Thaksin, yet they want him back. The one guy that is doing something for them is the guy who they want out: Abhisit.

I have come to this point of view by experiencing life as a foreign businessperson since 2002, with a year as a bum before that, and was only really interested in Thai politics since about 2004, when Thaksin's level of corruption wasn't funny any more (as it was at first!). I'd heard about his human rights abuses, but I didn't know enough about them at the time to form an opinion. I now know Thaksin to be at least as evil as any of the bad guys in James Bond films. He certainly fits the persona in my honest opinion and would be a good choice to base any future James Bond bad guys on.

Thaksin deserved to be removed. The coup was necessary. Let me go a little further into that - Thaksin definitely did not help the Thai people, least of all the poor. His 30 Baht healthcare idea was Chuan's, and has since been made free of charge by Abhisit. His loans-for-farmers scheme made them poorer and entrenched in debt for at least a generation. He changed laws at will to allow his businesses to exploit them, then changed them back as soon as he was finished. He had no plans to develop education as it was contrary to his own agenda. Not to mention the war on drugs, human rights lawyer abductions, Tak Bai incident... He wasn't even the Prime Minister when he was removed, but decided (on his own) that he would be the "caretaker PM" until a new one was elected. That wasn't going to happen until he and only he allowed a fair election process (that's why the Democrats boycotted the 2005 election) - so, it wasn't going to happen. Besides, the Thai people elected a party with ideals and policies, not a man who was allowed to rape the country with no recourse to the Law (to borrow a phrase from Pink Floyd).

In truth, I suppose, he should have been impeached an replaced democratically rather than ousted in a military coup. But unfortunately, because he was allowed to put his own people in most of the country's other top positions, doing so would not have made any change. Thaksin brought this on himself.

The Red Shirt movement had a valid cause, but it's been hijacked by Thaksin. If they were protesting for someone in power who didn't ignore them, then they should not have protested in 2010. Abhisit is looking after them, pretty well I might add - he had and continues to have no choice as a politician in power in a democratic (even if this is just a convenient term) country. Their 2009 protest was the aftermath of the court dissolving PPP and the defection of many PPP-led coalition partners to the Democrat side. Sorry, this is democracy - so you can't protest against it on the grounds of "we want democracy". You have a democracy, developing though it may be. The 2010 protest was really just a load of gangsters who are fed up with all this "official accountability" rubbish duping impressionable people who had been duped by these gangsters for generations. This is why Abhisit is trying so hard to improve the standard of their education.

So, this is why I am fervently against Thaksin and those who he paid to usurp the genuine Red Shirt cause and turn it into an anti-monarchist, violent insurrection campaign. But I still maintain that more than 95% of Red Shirts are generally honest people with no desire to see their country in flames and who love the King. Still, those protesters and their sympathizers who support and accept violence on the grounds of a fictional murderous government - sorry, I can’t accept these people’s points of view as valid. If the army killed people (which I’m sure they did), you just can’t pin it on the government as the government’s instructions to the army were pretty clear.

Despite the good question and the answers that have been written from the heart, it's a shame that some of the usual suspects feel the need to show their own shortcomings with the same venom that seems to manifest itself in all their posts:

Irritating for you no doubt, but in the overall scheme of things quite irrelevant.Get some perspective.

What a stupid remark - or am I showing my shortcomings here?

[Hitch22]

If you are not, then I think you should consider assuming the personna of someone more spectacularly hansum.

I am deeply hurt by this comment!

Nick ,please tell the little Nazis on this board what really happened on the streets of Bangkok.

[Pi Sek]

If you are not, then I think you should consider assuming the personna of someone more spectacularly hansum.

I am deeply hurt by this comment!

Nick ,please tell the little Nazis on this board what really happened on the streets of Bangkok.

Well, I think those of us who were there don't need to be told.

Oh, and another thing:

Liberals call me a fascist.

Right-wing conservatives call me a lefty.

I believe I am more fascist than liberal - so does that make me a liberal (see above)?

[rubl]

If you are not, then I think you should consider assuming the personna of someone more spectacularly hansum.

I am deeply hurt by this comment!

Nick ,please tell the little Nazis on this board what really happened on the streets of Bangkok.

No need to talk of 'little Nazis' if someone doesn't agree with you.

As for Nick, he already told his story, just read it:

"Mourning and defiance

April 15th, 2010 by Nick Nostitz, Guest Contributor"

http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2010/04/15/mourning-and-definance/

PS this link I already provided in #295

[nicknostitz]

If you are not, then I think you should consider assuming the personna of someone more spectacularly hansum.

I am deeply hurt by this comment!

Nick ,please tell the little Nazis on this board what really happened on the streets of Bangkok.

I will, but in the form of a book, when i finished researching and writing.

Things were/are far too complex to simplify them here in places like this forum so that the whole thing turns into a useless clash of opinions. Some of the experiences i and many others have made during those terrible days are also a bit too painful to have a few cynics take them apart by cheap little point scoring matches. The anonymity of places like these are not exactly conductive for reasonable discussions - people often tend to say very hurtful things otherwise good manners would prevent them to.

Also we journalists are human as well, and some what i have seen is still very fresh in my mind. I am not just turning into a robot when i take photos, and when things are over i just have a laugh about it. I can't switch off like that, and i don't think i am supposed to do that.

Just one example: I have followed up with Channarong Pongsrila, the man who was shot in front of me, and who i had to pull out of a pool in a garden in the compound we escaped into, and whose last words i possibly have heard. I am still in contact with his family. How can i convey here how difficult it is having had to tell his children and his wife how horribly their father and husband has died, while they were crying, and at the same time i am also close to tears? That i have survived, while their father, a few meters away from me, has not? I am sure than many here would appreciate me to talk about these things, but then there will some people that shoot out of the anonymity with the same cynic and nasty comments i have read here already, while chuckling over their computers how great they are to have scored a point.

I am not a masochist.

[philw]

If you are not, then I think you should consider assuming the personna of someone more spectacularly hansum.

I am deeply hurt by this comment!

Nick ,please tell the little Nazis on this board what really happened on the streets of Bangkok.

I will, but in the form of a book, when i finished researching and writing.

Things were/are far too complex to simplify them here in places like this forum so that the whole thing turns into a useless clash of opinions. Some of the experiences i and many others have made during those terrible days are also a bit too painful to have a few cynics take them apart by cheap little point scoring matches. The anonymity of places like these are not exactly conductive for reasonable discussions - people often tend to say very hurtful things otherwise good manners would prevent them to.

Also we journalists are human as well, and some what i have seen is still very fresh in my mind. I am not just turning into a robot when i take photos, and when things are over i just have a laugh about it. I can't switch off like that, and i don't think i am supposed to do that.

Just one example: I have followed up with Channarong Pongsrila, the man who was shot in front of me, and who i had to pull out of a pool in a garden in the compound we escaped into, and whose last words i possibly have heard. I am still in contact with his family. How can i convey here how difficult it is having had to tell his children and his wife how horribly their father and husband has died, while they were crying, and at the same time i am also close to tears? That i have survived, while their father, a few meters away from me, has not? I am sure than many here would appreciate me to talk about these things, but then there will some people that shoot out of the anonymity with the same cynic and nasty comments i have read here already, while chuckling over their computers how great they are to have scored a point.

I am not a masochist.

All fair points and I fully understand.

Can't say I blame you for such reticence on this forum.

It is however a loss to ThaiVisa that intelligent debate and opinion would rather stay away.....................

It's becoming an ugly place.

[Insight]

And anybody questioning Nick's account risks being labelled cold and insensitive?

[rubl]

JD are you in Thailand ???

The army were shooting to kill and the evidence is incontrovertible.

The only people who say the army did not kill anybody are you,the army and a couple of others on TV.

To the rest of the world it's a given.

This is a wee bit one-sided.

The army shot, the army killed, red-shirts shot, red-shirts killed, black-shirt shot, black-shirts killed. Then there are further unknowns who in March - May shot about 60 grenades, killing and wounding non-red-shirts (army, police, BTS users, etc.)

That for the rest of the world is a given, as far as they care that is.

[rubl]

begin removed (long list of quotes) ...

All fair points and I fully understand.

Can't say I blame you for such reticence on this forum.

It is however a loss to ThaiVisa that intelligent debate and opinion would rather stay away.....................

It's becoming an ugly place.

It is a loss for TV if intelligent debate and opinion stays away, including those I don't agree with, but accept under the conditions philw stated. I have no problems with extremists of any colour, or trolls avoiding this forum.

PS philw, you may stay

[bulmercke]

If you are not, then I think you should consider assuming the personna of someone more spectacularly hansum.

I am deeply hurt by this comment!

Nick ,please tell the little Nazis on this board what really happened on the streets of Bangkok.

I will, but in the form of a book, when i finished researching and writing.

Things were/are far too complex to simplify them here in places like this forum so that the whole thing turns into a useless clash of opinions. Some of the experiences i and many others have made during those terrible days are also a bit too painful to have a few cynics take them apart by cheap little point scoring matches. The anonymity of places like these are not exactly conductive for reasonable discussions - people often tend to say very hurtful things otherwise good manners would prevent them to.

Also we journalists are human as well, and some what i have seen is still very fresh in my mind. I am not just turning into a robot when i take photos, and when things are over i just have a laugh about it. I can't switch off like that, and i don't think i am supposed to do that.

Just one example: I have followed up with Channarong Pongsrila, the man who was shot in front of me, and who i had to pull out of a pool in a garden in the compound we escaped into, and whose last words i possibly have heard. I am still in contact with his family. How can i convey here how difficult it is having had to tell his children and his wife how horribly their father and husband has died, while they were crying, and at the same time i am also close to tears? That i have survived, while their father, a few meters away from me, has not? I am sure than many here would appreciate me to talk about these things, but then there will some people that shoot out of the anonymity with the same cynic and nasty comments i have read here already, while chuckling over their computers how great they are to have scored a point.

I am not a masochist.

Indeed - some of the heroic - and they were - Red-Shirt protesters died in truly desperate - shocking circumstances.

And what is just as sickening is that there has been to date - as far as I know - scant if any media reporting of the plight and terrible suffering of the loved ones left behind.

[philw]

begin removed (long list of quotes) ...

All fair points and I fully understand.

Can't say I blame you for such reticence on this forum.

It is however a loss to ThaiVisa that intelligent debate and opinion would rather stay away.....................

It's becoming an ugly place.

It is a loss for TV if intelligent debate and opinion stays away, including those I don't agree with, but accept under the conditions philw stated. I have no problems with extremists of any colour, or trolls avoiding this forum.

PS philw, you may stay

how gracious..........

[bulmercke]

begin removed (long list of quotes) ...

All fair points and I fully understand.

Can't say I blame you for such reticence on this forum.

It is however a loss to ThaiVisa that intelligent debate and opinion would rather stay away.....................

It's becoming an ugly place.

It is a loss for TV if intelligent debate and opinion stays away, including those I don't agree with, but accept under the conditions philw stated. I have no problems with extremists of any colour, or trolls avoiding this forum.

PS philw, you may stay

rubl - we'll make a Red-Shirt of you yet.

[hammered]

begin removed (long list of quotes) ...

All fair points and I fully understand.

Can't say I blame you for such reticence on this forum.

It is however a loss to ThaiVisa that intelligent debate and opinion would rather stay away.....................

It's becoming an ugly place.

It is a loss for TV if intelligent debate and opinion stays away, including those I don't agree with, but accept under the conditions philw stated. I have no problems with extremists of any colour, or trolls avoiding this forum.

PS philw, you may stay

rubl - we'll make a Red-Shirt of you yet.

Bit of a TV love in today. Must be something to this cooler air.

Did anyone see the Phayao red and yellows working together in the other paper today? It is infectious

Edited October 30, 2010 by hammered