Thai-Chinese High-Speed Train Project Off Tracks

[rubl]

You talk the same as the ones who said 100 years ago that it would be impossible to fly to the other side of the world within 24 hours or less than that.

There's something called future rubl and I'm happy that a few people in The Netherlands BELIEVED that it could be done and it was an (American Built by Douglas) Dutch plane -De Uiver- that won the handicapped race from England to Australia in 1934 and flew there in just 4 days in 90 hours and 17 minutes.

Negativity won't stop the planning of realistic futuristic plans like high-speed railways, whether some are still old fashioned thinking or not.

That railway link from China to Singapore WILL come, no doubt about it; it depends on the intelligence of the Thai government if they have the vision to accept that they HAVE to realize it's of great importance to Thailand's exports also.

LaoPo

I think there's a misunderstanding. I don't say the project should be shelved. I simply try to point out that a lot of planning and preparations go into building high speed links. Even if you do not have to worry about the environment and protesting greens, you still need to overcome various technical problems. A few months ago one of the ministers said he had surveyed the traject with some Chinese and saw no problem. That type of mentality I try to fight.

I do believe in the future ever since I saw Neil Armstrong set the first foot on the moon, life thanks to the Early Bird satellite which had been revived for a moment.

[sibeymai]

I suppose it might be possible for Thailand to run a high sped rail network. After all, the BTS and MRT work well most of the time and contain similar technologies.

However, given all the bickering about 3G telephone licenses and how other "mega" projects never seem to amount to anything I'd bet on this never amounting to anything either. China might be the only country to have the patience to go through the political process. I think western companies would be very wary of getting their fingers burnt.

Anyway, regarding anything over 100km/h as a fast train indicates the fast train project is already off the rails. The cost of constructing a true fast train network at 300km/h will be significantly more than for 150km/h.

Besides, even if it can be built and people can be found to run it, how to stop the millions of Thai drivers who drive straight through level crossings completely ignoring barriers and warnings of approaching trains. They better buy a lot of extra rolling stock.

[LaoPo]

You talk the same as the ones who said 100 years ago that it would be impossible to fly to the other side of the world within 24 hours or less than that.

There's something called future rubl and I'm happy that a few people in The Netherlands BELIEVED that it could be done and it was an (American Built by Douglas) Dutch plane -De Uiver- that won the handicapped race from England to Australia in 1934 and flew there in just 4 days in 90 hours and 17 minutes.

Negativity won't stop the planning of realistic futuristic plans like high-speed railways, whether some are still old fashioned thinking or not.

That railway link from China to Singapore WILL come, no doubt about it; it depends on the intelligence of the Thai government if they have the vision to accept that they HAVE to realize it's of great importance to Thailand's exports also.

LaoPo

I think there's a misunderstanding. I don't say the project should be shelved. I simply try to point out that a lot of planning and preparations go into building high speed links. Even if you do not have to worry about the environment and protesting greens, you still need to overcome various technical problems. A few months ago one of the ministers said he had surveyed the traject with some Chinese and saw no problem. That type of mentality I try to fight.

I do believe in the future ever since I saw Neil Armstrong set the first foot on the moon, life thanks to the Early Bird satellite which had been revived for a moment.

OK, maybe I misunderstood you.

First of all it's a MEO agreement to be signed. Nothing has been finalized yet.

But I'm sure that the parties involved have studied the possibilities and impossibilities as where and how to construct the high-speed line on Thai soil.

If the Chinese can built a railway into the highest mountains on earth into Lhasa - Tibet at an altitude of more than 4.000 meters and a tunnel at 4.900 meter and the highest trainstation at 5.068 m in the mountains with a total of 675 bridges, the railway in Thailand seems a bowl of noodles to me.

http://en.wikipedia....ingzang_railway

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

Besides, even if it can be built and people can be found to run it, how to stop the millions of Thai drivers who drive straight through level crossings completely ignoring barriers and warnings of approaching trains. They better buy a lot of extra rolling stock.

High speed tracks do not have crossings; just bridges and tunnels

LaoPo

[WarpSpeed]

The know-how and expertise in China with hig-speed train railways is huge and immense

LaoPo

Well they did get a lot of experience building the railroads across the new world too..

If you mean the Chinese laborers, working under slave like conditions, building the railroads in America in prehistoric times , you're right.

LaoPo

Not quite prehistoric times but hey only off by a few thousand years nothing really in the grander scheme of things .. You're still on track, so to speak..

Edited October 26, 2010 by WarpSpeed

[rubl]

begin removed ...

But I'm sure that the parties involved have studied the possibilities and impossibilities as where and how to construct the high-speed line on Thai soil.

... end removed

I'm sure the Chinese can build a high speed link. As you pointed out they've done so even in the Himalayas.

It's not the building I'm concerned, it's the planning. As I mentioned when a minster start saying 'I've surveyed the traject' it only suggests he doesn't really know what he talked about.

The Chinese have reason to support a high speed link and if willing to finance, can build it. But remember 'China is the first and only country to have commercial high-speed train service on conventional rail lines'. Their HSL's do not conform to requirements you see in most European countries (see link I provided). They have level crossings amongst others. That's a bit more of a problem especially with Thai culture.

[LaoPo]

begin removed ...

But I'm sure that the parties involved have studied the possibilities and impossibilities as where and how to construct the high-speed line on Thai soil.

... end removed

I'm sure the Chinese can build a high speed link. As you pointed out they've done so even in the Himalayas.

It's not the building I'm concerned, it's the planning. As I mentioned when a minster start saying 'I've surveyed the traject' it only suggests he doesn't really know what he talked about.

The Chinese have reason to support a high speed link and if willing to finance, can build it. But remember 'China is the first and only country to have commercial high-speed train service on conventional rail lines'. Their HSL's do not conform to requirements you see in most European countries (see link I provided). They have level crossings amongst others. That's a bit more of a problem especially with Thai culture.

Good points; but I have no doubt that the Chinese will demand the supervision of the constructing and building; if you leave that to the Thai the project better not start at all.

The Chinese are already negotiation, financing ane building railroads all over Africa; Sierra Leona alone plans to build 5.000 km of railroad but such countries lack the experience and know-how also.

And, about the different gauges in railroads; yes, they excist but Im sure the engineers, both from the west and east know how to deal with that.

The new long distance high-speed railroads will use new trains at a new railroad, not using the existing ones.

LaoPo

[rubl]

begin removed ...

But I'm sure that the parties involved have studied the possibilities and impossibilities as where and how to construct the high-speed line on Thai soil.

... end removed

I'm sure the Chinese can build a high speed link. As you pointed out they've done so even in the Himalayas.

It's not the building I'm concerned, it's the planning. As I mentioned when a minster start saying 'I've surveyed the traject' it only suggests he doesn't really know what he talked about.

The Chinese have reason to support a high speed link and if willing to finance, can build it. But remember 'China is the first and only country to have commercial high-speed train service on conventional rail lines'. Their HSL's do not conform to requirements you see in most European countries (see link I provided). They have level crossings amongst others. That's a bit more of a problem especially with Thai culture.

Good points; but I have no doubt that the Chinese will demand the supervision of the constructing and building; if you leave that to the Thai the project better not start at all.

The Chinese are already negotiation, financing ane building railroads all over Africa; Sierra Leona alone plans to build 5.000 km of railroad but such countries lack the experience and know-how also.

And, about the different gauges in railroads; yes, they excist but Im sure the engineers, both from the west and east know how to deal with that.

The new long distance high-speed railroads will use new trains at a new railroad, not using the existing ones.

LaoPo

Just to check. When I mention 'conventional rail lines' I don't worry about 'gauge', it's more level crossings, wind-blast, security rails to prevent carriages to tumble if derailed, etc., etc. I'm aware some security details being a problem in densely populated Europe are less of a concern here. Still ... Thais manage to cross highways on foot or by motorbike, make U-turns at the most dangerous spots. High speed of 250 km/hour means about 70 metres/second. Whoosh.

Sure let the project be run by the Chinese, it will assure proper, speedy execution. Only openly discuss technical issues like traject and preventive measures BEFORE starting to dig.

[LaoPo]

Just to check. When I mention 'conventional rail lines' I don't worry about 'gauge', it's more level crossings, wind-blast, security rails to prevent carriages to tumble if derailed, etc., etc. I'm aware some security details being a problem in densely populated Europe are less of a concern here. Still ... Thais manage to cross highways on foot or by motorbike, make U-turns at the most dangerous spots. High speed of 250 km/hour means about 70 metres/second. Whoosh.

Sure let the project be run by the Chinese, it will assure proper, speedy execution. Only openly discuss technical issues like traject and preventive measures BEFORE starting to dig.

AFAIK all high-speed tracks have no crossings but tunnels and bridges for passing people/vehicles. Next to that the tracks will probably be "gated" and secured, especially in areas where people live and work.

Large corporations planning major infrastructure ALWAYS discuss technical problems first before they start digging. It won't be anything else here.

I suppose the China Railway Group is the company that will be doing the job and they are a major global railway tracks' player and belong to the largest corporations in the world and amongst the Fortune top 500 companies with more than 275.000 employees.

They have a turnover of $ 50 Billion.

And, although China Railways published that they will increase their profits by 60% between Jan-Sept in 2010 they also face problems from time to time since they also had to publish that they are expecting a loss of $ 623 Million in a Saudi deal....SO: if the Thai negotiaters are clever they might make a dollar or two

And, developing hasn't come to a standstill yet:

China developing 500 kph trains

http://www.chinaecon...kph_trains.html

LaoPo

[SergeiY]

Perhaps now, but check out the Chinese inventions of Gunpowder, Paper, Banknotes and the Compass, the lattter before the birth of Christ and more than a thousand years before the Europeans, who reckon they invented nearly everything! see:http://www.sacu.org/greatinventions.html

Greatness in the past gives no guarantee for the future. Still with 1.5 billion people there should be a few geniuses and inventive minds in China. In the Netherlands with 17 million people we have some, but it tends to be hard work, elaborate schooling system, stressing individualism and thinking for yourself, etc., etc.

Yes, the superiority of the great white man in the West is a thing of the past. The future is in the East.

[jayjay0]

Methinks the point has been lost in translation. With a better choice of words it could read as follows (please forgive the editorial licence I've assumed):

Senator Narumol Siriwat said the project would be useful for rail development in Thailand.

"We ... just want the government to seek more options and choices for Parliament to consider," she said.

"What about Japanese, South Korean or European technology? They are also experienced in running high-speed trains but why doesn't the government propose these countries for comparison?" she queried.

The government's proposal lacked a risk analysis, business returns and an environmental impact assessment report, she said.

The senator says some things that sound logical and fair-minded. We would expect our own home governments to do likewise when considering work projects.

Having technology and maintaining it are two separate things.

[chantorn]

And I always thought the Chinese High Speed trains were built with European (German) technology. Isn't the Maglev train in Shanghai a German product?

So let the Chinese finance the project while the European (German, French) supply the technology.

Not the Tibetan high speed rail just completed, it is all Chinese technology..

In his book "Riding the Iron Rooster" (1988), American train traveler Paul Theroux wrote, "The Kunlun Range is a guarantee that the railway will never get to Lhasa."

Who knows better about low speed train than Paul Theroux.

[Frankster]

And I always thought the Chinese High Speed trains were built with European (German) technology. Isn't the Maglev train in Shanghai a German product?

So let the Chinese finance the project while the European (German, French) supply the technology.

Not the Tibetan high speed rail just completed, it is all Chinese technology..

The train to Tibet was built in Canada ..

[anterian]

And I always thought the Chinese High Speed trains were built with European (German) technology. Isn't the Maglev train in Shanghai a German product?

So let the Chinese finance the project while the European (German, French) supply the technology.

In a recent article on BBC, just a couple weeks back. BBC reported that Chinese copy everything, I mean everything. Nothing is pretty much original work. Look at their military advances in Technology. They've been busted several times for computer hacking, books, even degrees. Same as Korean everything is a copy of a copy from another company.

Perhaps now, but check out the Chinese inventions of Gunpowder, Paper, Banknotes and the Compass, the lattter before the birth of Christ and more than a thousand years before the Europeans, who reckon they invented nearly everything! see:http://www.sacu.org/greatinventions.html

But Europeans invented dynamite, plastic paper, forgery resistant banknotes, and GPS.... Your call:lol:

[patcharapun]

Having spent several more tedious hours than expected on Thailand's rail system yesterday, I can't believe that Thailand is serious about a decent rail line, especially if it has to pay for it.

Look at the stark differences; the national highway network is in excellent shape, effortlessly whisking the owners of big pick-up trucks all round the country.

The trains are slow, dirty, and uncomfortable, clearly maintained in an appropriate way for the peasants who make up the bulk of the customers.

I love train travel, but a 'Special Express' that takes over 8 1/2 hours to cover 450 kilometers is taking the p*ss somewhat when you could do it in half the time by car.

agreed!

[Seanextra]

;)The First Hi Speed Train in China was designed iin Germany i wonder how similar the new Chinese Designs look under under the Hood ! Ive been to the China Hobby Expo in Beijing and Shanghai they are affectionately known as the Copy Shows ! They may well have good designers but they have far more Reverse Engineers than designers !

What courses are you studying in university Zhang Kin ? "Oh Reverse Engineering":jap:

Edited October 27, 2010 by Seanextra

[LTGTR]

There's a problem with Chinese technology?What does they plan to use instead,Thai tech?LOL!

Using the Land Of Dirty Diesels dealing with 3G as a guide,we'll NEVER see that rail line.

[fire and ice]

Look at the stark differences; the national highway network is in excellent shape, effortlessly whisking the owners of big pick-up trucks all round the country.

Sorry, but I had to chuckle at this description of the highway network, especially the "... effortlessly whisking ... of big pick-up trucks ..." I do agree that the general comparison of the existing rail and highway systems is a fair one. Unfortunately, the integrity of the highway construction is terribly inconsistent. One trip up the Mithrapap Highway will prove my point. There are too many instances of big pick-up trucks making big efforts to un-whisk their way through, around (and create) craters in the road surface - all of which has exacerbated in the recent floods.

As an Aussie I cannot criticise the Thai highway system, ours are an absolute joke! As an example, we STILL don't even have a dual carrigeway all the way from Sydney to Brisbane!

[Igor]

If you read a little better it says "at least 100km/hr";

Excuse me but how many contractors will strive to exceed the minimum requirements of their agreement. I'd be embarrassed to even call something that travels "at least 100 km/hr" a high speed system.

But, at 7-800 billion baht, I'm sure specifics are spelled out in that 13 page document!

A skeptic might be inclined to say that after the bribes and kickbacks there might be enough money left to build a 100 km/hr system. Not ME you understand.

[OZEMADE]

They will be able to get their Tanks and Troops down here in No-Time

[tigermonkey]

They will be able to get their Tanks and Troops down here in No-Time

Now that is a truly nonsensical statement -- what on earth does Thailand have that China could possibly want ? If they have a rail line to move things through Thailand undisturbed, that would be quite sufficient. That is exactly what the Japanese looked for when they built the "Death Railway"

" Tanks and Troops" -- no way -- no need -- the Chinese will just tell the Thai governemnt what they want, and they will sign a MOU with the Chinese -- just like they did with the Japanese.

The Thai army has never really fought anyone, unless you count the Vimy French -- we have Victory Monument to celebrate the surrender of those 2 or 3 trrops.

Edited October 27, 2010 by tigermonkey

[sibeymai]

Besides, even if it can be built and people can be found to run it, how to stop the millions of Thai drivers who drive straight through level crossings completely ignoring barriers and warnings of approaching trains. They better buy a lot of extra rolling stock.

High speed tracks do not have crossings; just bridges and tunnels

LaoPo

Unless every centimeter of track is elevated like the airport link it will be a disaster waiting to happen.

Remember, Thailand is a country where high voltage electricity transmission towers collapse because thieves steal the bolts holding them together. What do you think will happen to kilometers of unprotected and expensive overhead copper cable ?

Sorry to say it but it can never work safely. Regardless of being able to instill the concept of safety in the Thais who run it there are still too many others for whom the concept of safety has no meaning. It'll only take one drunken idiot on a motorcycle taking a short cut across the track through a gap in the fencing which wasn't fixed to cause complete carnage.

The only way to avert this is to elevate all of the track as I stated earlier. The chances of that happening seem slim (might pay to buy some shares in SCG just in case).

Would you travel on a fast train in Thailand at ground level ? No, I didn't think so.

Edited October 27, 2010 by sibeymai

[swerver]

Sorry to bring this nagging point up again, but it's all about the Chinese tea money. With a project this big there has to be large payouts. If you think the 3G fiasco was a cluster "fornication", this rail system will be worse. Every other politician from either side jockeying to head this up.

"Corrupt politicians make the other ten percent look bad.- Kissinger" Somehow I think he must have quoted this after his trip to Thailand.

You Girls and Guys are all missing the point.

Senator Supot Phothongkham said the government whip proposed that a 35- member joint committee conduct a further study on the framework agreement as well as the project. The Senate has already submitted a list of nine senators who will be part of the committee, he said.

The point is right at the end,,, proposed that a 35-member joint committee … Senate has already submitted a list of nine (9) senators …

[midas]

Thailand only has this :-

but only yesterday China got this ........350 klms per hour

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Photos+China+inaugurates+bullet+train+line+from+Shanghai+Hangzhou/3725123/story.html

[sunanta]

Look at the stark differences; the national highway network is in excellent shape, effortlessly whisking the owners of big pick-up trucks all round the country.

Sorry, but I had to chuckle at this description of the highway network, especially the "... effortlessly whisking ... of big pick-up trucks ..." I do agree that the general comparison of the existing rail and highway systems is a fair one. Unfortunately, the integrity of the highway construction is terribly inconsistent. One trip up the Mithrapap Highway will prove my point. There are too many instances of big pick-up trucks making big efforts to un-whisk their way through, around (and create) craters in the road surface - all of which has exacerbated in the recent floods.

PASS ON THE TRAIN....LEAD PAINT N THE WHEELS COME OVER FIFTY......

[rametindallas]

Don't fight this project. Think of the 'skim' think of the 'kickbacks'. There is enough to make all the polititians richer. /sarcasm

My real opinion is they should hire the Chinese to bring the railway system up to at least 1960 standards. You know, stop all the derailings, breakdowns, etc. The govt. is not able to maintain the system they have; does anyone think they can/will maintain a high-tech, high-speed rail system? Get real! Any project initiated by the current Transportation Minister Sophon is suspect from the beginning. This project is a huge opportunity for GRAFT. Fix what you have and it you still want to spend money, spend it on floodwalls and flood prevention so the farmers are not put out of business every year.

[OZEMADE]

They will be able to get their Tanks and Troops down here in No-Time

Now that is a truly nonsensical statement -- what on earth does Thailand have that China could possibly want ? If they have a rail line to move things through Thailand undisturbed, that would be quite sufficient. That is exactly what the Japanese looked for when they built the "Death Railway"

" Tanks and Troops" -- no way -- no need -- the Chinese will just tell the Thai governemnt what they want, and they will sign a MOU with the Chinese -- just like they did with the Japanese.

The Thai army has never really fought anyone, unless you count the Vimy French -- we have Victory Monument to celebrate the surrender of those 2 or 3 trrops.

Actually it was a bit of a joke, dont take things toooo seriously.

The Thai army actually fought in Vietnam with the U.S and Australians.

[chantorn]

Don't fight this project. Think of the 'skim' think of the 'kickbacks'. There is enough to make all the polititians richer. /sarcasm

My real opinion is they should hire the Chinese to bring the railway system up to at least 1960 standards. You know, stop all the derailings, breakdowns, etc. The govt. is not able to maintain the system they have; does anyone think they can/will maintain a high-tech, high-speed rail system? Get real! Any project initiated by the current Transportation Minister Sophon is suspect from the beginning. This project is a huge opportunity for GRAFT. Fix what you have and it you still want to spend money, spend it on floodwalls and flood prevention so the farmers are not put out of business every year.

Think of the 'skim' think of the 'kickbacks'?

No way SRT take kickbacks. Else they won't be so poor, and still running old stocks.

[eljeque]

You talk the same as the ones who said 100 years ago that it would be impossible to fly to the other side of the world within 24 hours or less than that.

There's something called future rubl and I'm happy that a few people in The Netherlands BELIEVED that it could be done and it was an (American Built by Douglas) Dutch plane -De Uiver- that won the handicapped race from England to Australia in 1934 and flew there in just 4 days in 90 hours and 17 minutes.

Negativity won't stop the planning of realistic futuristic plans like high-speed railways, whether some are still old fashioned thinking or not.

That railway link from China to Singapore WILL come, no doubt about it; it depends on the intelligence of the Thai government if they have the vision to accept that they HAVE to realize it's of great importance to Thailand's exports also.

LaoPo

I think there's a misunderstanding. I don't say the project should be shelved. I simply try to point out that a lot of planning and preparations go into building high speed links. Even if you do not have to worry about the environment and protesting greens, you still need to overcome various technical problems. A few months ago one of the ministers said he had surveyed the traject with some Chinese and saw no problem. That type of mentality I try to fight.

I do believe in the future ever since I saw Neil Armstrong set the first foot on the moon, life thanks to the Early Bird satellite which had been revived for a moment.

OK, maybe I misunderstood you.

First of all it's a MEO agreement to be signed. Nothing has been finalized yet.

But I'm sure that the parties involved have studied the possibilities and impossibilities as where and how to construct the high-speed line on Thai soil.

If the Chinese can built a railway into the highest mountains on earth into Lhasa - Tibet at an altitude of more than 4.000 meters and a tunnel at 4.900 meter and the highest trainstation at 5.068 m in the mountains with a total of 675 bridges, the railway in Thailand seems a bowl of noodles to me.

http://en.wikipedia....ingzang_railway

LaoPo

Until it rains.