Big C Superstore Bombed

[spencer]

I agree with Lukamar. Instead of creating more paperwork for the rest of the country by requiring every one to register their sim cards, disable the entire cell phone network in the south. Then they will have to go to back to using whatever detonating device they used before cell phones became popular which may be easier to trace to its source. I also agree that you should not give in to the terrorist. As an added measure travel to and from these provinces should be controled. Every vehicle in and out should be searched.

[lukamar]

In Canada the French in Quebec have been trying to separate for years.. but.. everytime they try ....its done democratically with a vote.. why not let them vote on it. No need to blow everything up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

True the French Canadians get to vote on separation and so far the referendums have failed. They have had legal representation in the House of Commons with the Block Quebecoius party for a good while now.

Having said that, if the rest of Canada was allowed to vote on whether they are to stay or go, it probably would be a totally different outcome. A large majority of English want them to keep their distinct culture and at the same time to stop pushing it down the non French speakers gullets.

It all started with the FLQ and their terror campaign in the 60's and by mamby pambying them with little tidbits to make them feel "More Canadian". All it's got Canada in 40 years is a needless waste of dual packaging, dual programing on TV and Radio and duplication of everything in both languages. I can't refuse to have my children learn French in a school district in the West, where Chinese would be much more useful to them, as it's compulsory under the French Language law but in Quebec they only have to learn French and no English at all, to preserve their Culture.

I get heated over this. I was married to a girl from Montreal and to be honest in 10 years i never figured out what it was they really want as a group, Canada has given the French more than any other group in the country, total equality under the law. As a group they are like a bunch of spoiled children and maybe it is time for them to see what living on their own is really like and the rest of Canada can stop paying for their temper tantrums.

[vasan_blr]

Bomb hits superstore in deep south 

More than 800 people have been killed since violence erupted in the predominantly-Muslim south early last year. 

--TNA 2005-08-01

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

4 years ago I predicted this kind of terrorism on the name of Jigath can happen very soon in Thailand when I heard Thai-Muslims are going for religious studies in Pakistan. It is too late for Thais after sending them to Pakistan. Probably they should list down all the Thais visited Pakistan past 5-10 years and intelligence should watch them what they are doing now ? Sorry Thais.

Everyone show a surprise only when bombs explode in their own country, for example London now. India is screaming from 1990 about Pakistan's Islamic terrorist’s camps and spreading terrorism world wide. Even after knowing Sep-11 attack funds are transferred by ISI Pakistan Intelligence agency, US/World never realized. Still Bush is shaking hands with Mussaraf for what?. If Pakistan is not recognized as terrorist state soon, world can expect more disasters.

[BlackJack]

i dont know how many of you deal with muslims or any other group in international trade - my company does on a daily basis, and i can tell you that possibly the greatest cause of these problems is lack of education and ignorance.

if as much time was spent on doing a Business Administration Degree as it was on memorising the Koran then you would see a vast improvement in their situation.

they need to balance their life a bit more - thats all I am saying

however when you get a vulnerable kid with no education and low prospects for earning a living - then you have a canditate - a young kid who eyes the west of plenty and resents it because he may never have it - resentment turns to hate

I can remember in the 80's in Australia when there was large population of Lebanese and Vietnamese unemployed youth. Allowed in as refugees as a result of the wars in those countries.

25 years on the Lebanese run the extortion and drug trade in large parts of suburban Australia and the VIetnamese went on to control the herion import trade, by bringing in better grade heroin and cutting the price by 75%.

so i think the choice is pretty simple - sit down and read the good book or get out there and make a business for yourself

[capt_canada42]

John Lennon had it right:

Imagine there's no countries

It isn't hard to do

Nothing to kill or die for

And no religion too.

...and he was shot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes you are right on this one but people are to afraid to live with out their crutches religion and nationalism.

To think we all came from about 8 people and spread all over the world we sure have made a mess of things thinking we are all different.

[capt_canada42]

In Canada the French in Quebec have been trying to separate for years.. but.. everytime they try ....its done democratically with a vote.. why not let them vote on it. No need to blow everything up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

True the French Canadians get to vote on separation and so far the referendums have failed. They have had legal representation in the House of Commons with the Block Quebecoius party for a good while now.

Having said that, if the rest of Canada was allowed to vote on whether they are to stay or go, it probably would be a totally different outcome. A large majority of English want them to keep their distinct culture and at the same time to stop pushing it down the non French speakers gullets.

It all started with the FLQ and their terror campaign in the 60's and by mamby pambying them with little tidbits to make them feel "More Canadian". All it's got Canada in 40 years is a needless waste of dual packaging, dual programing on TV and Radio and duplication of everything in both languages. I can't refuse to have my children learn French in a school district in the West, where Chinese would be much more useful to them, as it's compulsory under the French Language law but in Quebec they only have to learn French and no English at all, to preserve their Culture.

I get heated over this. I was married to a girl from Montreal and to be honest in 10 years i never figured out what it was they really want as a group, Canada has given the French more than any other group in the country, total equality under the law. As a group they are like a bunch of spoiled children and maybe it is time for them to see what living on their own is really like and the rest of Canada can stop paying for their temper tantrums.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Its interesting young Canadians of French descent I have talked to here in Thailand see them selves as Candians first and French descent second. So you must be an old fart from my generation thats still see's the differences. Most of the young in Canada see things differently.

[Sir Burr]

Am going to play Devil's Advocate here.

For a powerless people that have a grievance against a government that has all the weapons and refuses to start a dialogue, terrorism is the only way to bring that government to the discussion table. Terrorism works, especially against a democracy.

Would Israel have been founded as quickly without the activities of the Stern Gang? Prime minister Menechem Begin was a member.

Would Sein Fein be in the position it is today without the IRA attrocities of the seventies and eighties?

Would the Israelis be pulling out of Gaza without having suffered the ravages of the Palistinian suicide bombers?

The violence in Iraq is already working, it is changing the opinion of the American public.

Those three provinces used to be part of Malaysia and have been grossly neglected by a succesion of Thai governments. The government won't sit down and discuss anything as they think this adds legitimacy to the southerner's claims.

I think you have to look at the underlying causes of the violence in order to understand the problem and end it.

As I've said, am just playing Devil's Advocate here. I do not support terrorism of any kind. OK, flame away.

[psychosid10]

Okay.. so we have people suggesting giving autonomy to the far south .

1. No Govt will ever do this. why? coz losing a part of your country just coz some terrorists threaten you is like losing a war without firing a round. Its an question of pride.

2. how do you imagine will this solve the problem forever ? what if 'they' creep up and ask for more. then what ? i know that wont happen for some time but it might..

3. DO you understand the implication of this on the rest of the world? The day any govt gives into such ridiculous demands , the whole world will burn . what can be more encouraging for 'them' than having seen their 'brothers' win a holy war. The next day you will see news of a new pattani or palestine..

Most govt avoid using the only method to fix this problem n that is BRUTE FORCE. Just chase them out of the country. i know it seems "uncivilized" but thats the only way it can work.. it means blood shed but peace has always been achieved at a cost ..

[ozzydom]

"What more than 95 per cent of all suicide terrorist attacks around the world have in common is not religion, but a specific political goal to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland or prize greatly."  Robert Pape

What do the three Southern Provinces have that the rest of Thailand wants?

Is there oil or other natural resources down there?

Why not just give them autonomy? Let them form their own country?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Selectively posting paragraphs of Robert Papes writings gives an erronious slant on what he really says,try reading an abstract of the full paper and you find he recommends tighter homeland security which is the way the Thai Government is proceeding.

Which brings me to my colleague, Robert Pape. The American Political Science Review just published Pape's essay, "The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism" as the lead article in its August 2003 issue.

I'd describe the topic as pretty important, and Pape has some interesting and provocative things to say about it. Here's the abstract:

Suicide terrorism is rising around the world, but the most common explanations do not help us understand why. Religious fanaticism does not explain why the world leader in suicide terrorism is the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka, a group that adheres to a Marxist/Leninist ideology, while existing psychological explanations have been contradicted by the widening range of socio-economic backgrounds of suicide terrorists. To advance our understanding of this growing phenomenon, this study collects the universe of suicide terrorist attacks worldwide from 1980 to 2001, 188 in all. In contrast to the existing explanations, this study shows that suicide terrorism follows a strategic logic, one specifically designed to coerce modern liberal democracies to make significant territorial concessions. Moreover, over the past two decades, suicide terrorism has been rising largely because terrorists have learned that it pays. Suicide terrorists sought to compel American and French military forces to abandon Lebanon in 1983, Israeli forces to leave Lebanon in 1985, Israeli forces to quit the Gaza Strip and the West Bank in 1994 and 1995, the Sri Lankan government to create an independent Tamil state from 1990 on, and the Turkish government to grant autonomy to the Kurds in the late 1990s. In all but the case of Turkey, the terrorist political cause made more gains after the resort to suicide operations than it had before. Thus, Western democracies should pursue policies that teach terrorists that the lesson of the 1980s and 1990s no longer holds, policies which in practice may have more to do with improving homeland security than with offensive military action.

[vasan_blr]

Okay.. so we have people suggesting giving autonomy to the far south .

Most govt avoid using the only method to fix this problem n that is BRUTE FORCE. Just chase them out of the country. i know it seems "uncivilized" but thats the only way it can work.. it means blood shed but peace has always been achieved at a cost ..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I completely agree what you have said. We are not Gandhi's to go for a "Hunger strike" against terrorist and they not British rulers to show some mercy on innocent people. After all the basterds are killing innocent people for no reason on the name of religion. This is time for the world to unite and bring peace even at a cost.

Another long term solution is closing down the religious educations centers in Pakistan and open free academic schools for the children whose parents cannot afford to send their children to general education. This requires at least 15-20 years to get some results.

[johnh101]

If there is an answer then nobody has found it yet. Whether Northern Ireland, Spain, the Middle East, South East Asia, you name it and nothing stops fanatics. If they are allowed to take over and form sone sort of administration they just kill all their opponents and anybody else who they take a dislike to.

Has anyone else noticed that all of these conflicts involve RELIGION. Who needs it?

In Canada the French in Quebec have been trying to separate for years.. but.. everytime they try ....its done democratically with a vote.. why not let them vote on it. No need to blow everything up.

There are seperatist movements in Spain, France, Canada, Scotland, Germany, etc, the list is endless, which are nothing to do with religion (admittedly many are non violent) . But every seperatist movement has its own unique ideals, albeit some are similar. Perhaps it is better not try to solve an Asian or Thai issue with ideas that were formulated to deal with Palestine or Ulster.

[stoneman]

"What more than 95 per cent of all suicide terrorist attacks around the world have in common is not religion, but a specific political goal to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland or prize greatly."  Robert Pape

What do the three Southern Provinces have that the rest of Thailand wants?

Is there oil or other natural resources down there?

Why not just give them autonomy? Let them form their own country?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Of the 25 posts so far, this is the only sensible one that trys to identify the source of the problem, and brings us closer to a solution.

The rest of us seem to accept and label the terror incidents in Thailand, London, Egypt and so on as "Muslim". Why is this label being applied? What assumptions come along with the use of the term "Muslim"? How does this allow politicians to avoid responsibility for solving the problem?

First, I cant remember any CREDIBLE reports where the perpetrators claim that their aim is to convert the attacked nation to islam. These acts are political violence, with a political aim or to get revenge for percived injustice, or to resist occupation.

Second, Unless the general public wake up to the implication of the use of the label "Muslim", there will no end to this problem. The motivation for these acts is not the spread of Islam. This is not an apology for that religion, which I also find distasteful, but a statement of fact.

Thirdly, The ruling politiclans and compliant media have created this label, precisely to stop the public thinking about the reasons for these terror actions. They dont want us to see what is driving these attacks, and they hijack our feeling of outrage, by presenting us with "eye for a eye" solutions that lead nowhere. They appeal to the desire for revenge so that they can continue to carry on with the policies that cause the problem in the first place. The american public is a prime example of an unthinking and gullible electorate, and we must not become like them, otherwise we will end up losing our values of justice and civilisation, just as they have in the fight against political violence.

From palestine, iraq, alqueida, pattani, the reasons are different and varied, and if we simplify all these to "Muslim" then we have no chance of a peaceful future.

Finally, Stop using the term Muslim and start thinking about the problem in the context of poltical terror, or political violence, and start asking what can be done to choke this problem at the source

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The one thing that I find interesting is that in the South we do not have an identifiable group that is coming out after each incident and saying "We did it". This has always been a part of most terrorists acts..this seemed to be a trademark and made their group more visible. Where is this definable group and who is the leader of it and who can we sit down with to discuss an end to the violence. As far as I know, there is no answer to this question and until there is an answer, it will continue.

Also, are we sure that all these killings are religious oriented...maybe we are seeing settlement of old scores...remember the 2,500 killed in the drug campaign.

There are a lot more questions than there are answers..

Stoneman

[Lefty]

Bomb hits superstore in deep south 

PATTANI: -- A small bomb exploded at a giant superstore in Pattani Monday afternoon, injuring one person and forcing the evacuation of customers and staff, in the latest of a string of attacks in the troubled region within less than 24 hours.

Police said the bomb, hidden in a plant pot, was triggered remotely by a cell phone signal at Big C Superstore in Pattani's Nong Chik district, and damaged two cars parked near the store.

The store was closed temporarily for further investigation.

In a separate incident, a police bomb squad in Yaring district successfully defused a bomb planted under a car belonging to a local defense volunteer.

The bomb, which weighed 10 kilogrammes, was set to be detonated by a cell phone signal.

Police suspected that it was the work of the same insurgents who wanted to detonate a bomb at the Yaring District Office. Fortunately, the volunteer's wife noticed the suspicious object and alerted the police.

In the neighbouring province of Narathiwat, insurgents planted a bomb in a fire-extinguisher along a road leading to a teachers housing unit. The bomb was timed to explode while a security team escorting teachers back home.

No one was hurt in the incident which police suspected was the work of insurgents who want to create disturbances in the region.

More than 800 people have been killed since violence erupted in the predominantly-Muslim south early last year. 

--TNA 2005-08-01

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[kidtongue]

Actually, I think ThaiPauly is onto something.  How about color coding the helmets by province and then the number bit.  You don't have the proper helmet, you're in trouble.  Banning the wearing of helmets would work too.  Cowards don't like to be known.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't think that color coding the helmet will quite make it, but how about color coding the license plates? Nah, that would mean the provinces would actually begin to govern themselves

[seonai]

Do any of you racists out there - that is most of you atlking on this forrum about the bomb near Big C - REALLY know the history of the "DEEP SOUTH" of Thailnd or indeed the true meaning of the KORAN and ISLAM ???? I think not. I am not going to go on about it as I am too busy doing more important things with my life but I just wanted to say... Please think before you let your nifty fingers hit your keyboards.

I am a farang, converted to Islam due to marriage. I am trying to read about the relgion and understand it. I do not condone violence and NEITHER DOES ISLAM. It is AGAINST Islam to kill randomly.

You, buy saying bad things about Muslims in general, are perpetuating the myth that all Muslims are bad. Grow up or go back to school.

Myself and my family and all those who live around me are Muslims and are the nicest people you could imagine.

Get a life before you start condeming ALL Muslims for the sake of a few twisted youths. There are millions of good Muslims.

Finally - maybe you've been living on palnet Zorg, but the goody goody Budhist population in the south have been popping off Muslims for DECADES. Check out the history books.

From - a happy, kind and caring Muslim living in south Thailand

[seonai]

Me again, just saw John Doe's post on previous page. Still gettin used to using this rather ugly looking web site ! John Doe - thanks for something intelligent.

[VanZam]

I think its only the minority that are blaming muslims in general.

If yourd bothered to actually read the posts here, youd find that most people are blaming the misguided teachings of a few, and not the entired muslim population.

read before you moan.

[VanZam]

Do any of you racists out there - that is most of you atlking on this forrum about the bomb near Big C - REALLY know the history of the "DEEP SOUTH" of Thailnd or indeed the true meaning of the KORAN and ISLAM ???? I think not. I am not going to go on about it as I am too busy doing more important things with my life but I just wanted to say... Please think before you let your nifty fingers hit your keyboards.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I dont think the "real meaning" of the koran or islam is in question here..and in fact, if they were followed (ie not killing innocent people) then there would be no problem.

Im not quite sure who your meaning when you say "racists" as this is a religious issue and not a race based one.

I think it is you who should think before letting your "nifty" fingers hit the keyboard

[seonai]

okay sure, some of you were not accusing Muslims ! Just wanted to say a few things. Sorry to have sounded offish. Venting my own frustrations. I am just, like you all, a bit tired of all this bombing in the world. And I am also scared. Where will it end? I kknow from living in an Islamic community that there is solidarity and that the fundamentalists will never stop. So it's scary.

Hey on a silly note, I am new to using this forum, how do I do things like change my user name or add a little picture please. Also, if I bookmark it will it come up on the same page or on different topics? Cheers in advance.

[stoker]

" Never give into terrorists " I remember Tony Blair saying similar words about the troubles in Northern Ireland. Never a more untrue word was spoken , the British Government gave in hook, line, and sinker. What price is peace!!!!

[WhiteShiva]

Me again, just saw John Doe's post on previous page. Still gettin used to using this rather ugly looking web site ! John Doe - thanks for something intelligent.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ditto that, John - well written!

What you have in the south is a turf war and there are several parties involved. Sure there are seperatrists, but how come no one ever seems to take credit for the attacks taking place? Could it be other interests at stake than seperatism?

How many hundreds of people have been killed by the army and police forces, or simply vanished after having been abduced over the last few years? It has even happend here in Bangkok. People arrested and tortured without good cause. There is clearly a lot more to this situation than meets the eye. I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would like to kill munks, teachers or simple farmers, but I can understand people wanting to strike back at the very government (and its representatives) that are behind all the injustce in the south.

Thaksin has proved that he has no idea how to deal with the situation in the south. Anyone remember who's idea it was to drop millions of paper birds on the south? - it didn't change a thing. Kept the press and general publics mind off the real issues for a while, that's all.

Let the NRC do its job, and listen to its ideas - strengthening the army and police will only make things worse.

[vasan_blr]

Do any of you racists out there - that is most of you atlking on this forrum about the bomb near Big C - REALLY know the history of the "DEEP SOUTH" of Thailnd or indeed the true meaning of the KORAN and ISLAM ???? I think not. I am not going to go on about it as I am too busy doing more important things with my life but I just wanted to say... Please think before you let your nifty fingers hit your keyboards.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear Mr.Seonai,

Thanks for your post. At least one Muslim had come forward to post here, so that we can clarify some of our doubts. We do agree every religions wants love, peace and human kind.

Can you please explain the what so called "Jihad" going on this world ?. As you said if Islam loves humans and peace, why are they killing innocent people on the name of "Jihad".

Does Islam respect other religions like Christianity, Buddhism, Sikh, Hindu,... etc. Do you also respect there are other ways to reach the heaven or God than Islam. Do you respect other human’s life and blood. Do you respect other religious places like Church, Wat, Temple, Etc.

Why does Parvaz Musharaf suddenly cracking down the religious institutions in Pakistan?. Why he is sending back all the foreign students learning religious studies back to their own country? What is the urgent necessity now ?

Don’t you think Muslims also need other technical education like Mathematics and Science for their own living skills ?

Do you respect your own women’s rights?. If you allow them to have proper education and knowlede about the world to allow them think. Then only they can teach good thinking to their children better than anyone else in the world. Then only the entire world can change.

One thing is for sure religious extremism is not good for any religion not only Islam. If everyone practices their beliefs at home, in side the doors there will not be any problem in the world.

Racism is an outdated history now. We are talking about religious extremism and wrong interpretation in the world.

Read, think and answer. Thanking in advance for answering my questions.

[ozzydom]

In the absence of a list of demands from the hierarchy behind the murderers operating in the South, indeed no person has had the guts to come out of the shadows and say "i am the leader of this particular movement"and this is what we want.

The facts are that they are young and Muslims and if as seonai says,the Muslim community is so close knit,then other more moderate members of their community must be aware of who among them is carrying out these brutal killings,so IMHO if these so called moderates are as concerned about the situation as they claim why dont they give up these murderers, until they do,I think they are all guilty of aiding and abetting in the murders.

[IMA_FARANG]

okay sure, some of you were not accusing Muslims ! Just wanted to say a few things. Sorry to have sounded offish. Venting my own frustrations. I am just, like you all, a bit tired of all this bombing in the world. And I am also scared. Where will it end? I kknow from living in an Islamic community that there is solidarity and that the fundamentalists will never stop. So it's scary.

Hey on a silly note, I am new to using this forum, how do I do things like change my user name or add a little picture please. Also, if I bookmark it will it come up on the same page or on different topics? Cheers in advance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Glad to see an intelligent post. You must remember that often when bad things happen it is human nature to lash out at those who are "different'. This is often just a knee-jerk reaction to the pain felt at what was done. Some of the posters on this forum reacted just that way. It just proves they are human beings. They feel pain, they feel anger, and they want to strike back at anyone without really thinking why and who they hit.

I spent 5 years in Saudi Arabia, and I have spent some time studying Islam. I never converted, but a good friend of mine did, (Honestly so he could marry a Muslim woman), and I also studied at the same time. Like every religion, if the core religious teachings were followed, it would be a liberating thing. There are however always those who bring their own hates and prejudice to what they read into the religion. That is true of Chritianity, Judisim, or Buddhism. It is human nature.

Having said that let me make two points. First, some people on this forum are blaming Pakistan and the Madressa system. While that is partly true, the fundamentalist Islamic problem is much closer to home in Thailand's case. Are there not provinces in Malaysia that are trying to make Sharia the law for their province. Don't they want to establish a Islamic law for Malaysia? Don't they want to insist of establishing their particular Islamic view for all Muslims in Malaysia? Please don't get me wrong, I have seen some Sharia law in effect, and unlike others I have on occasion been impressed by the core of honesty and respect for true justice in the Sharia law. For example, no case may be brought against a person unless their is a complainant that will publically stand against the person accused. no anonymous accustations. There was a case in Jeddah in which an anonymous letter accused a person of defrauding from a Saudi company. The police investigated this anonymous letter, and found out the claim of fraud was true. However, the Sharia court refused to bring a case against the defendent. Reason was, there was no person willing to piblically accuse the alleged defrauder. It is a prime point of Sharia, that for every accustation, someone must come from to bring the accusation. In the case above, the only charge was given by an anonymous source. Therefore no charge could be made, as no public accuser came forward. However, to return to the point, there are certain people in Malysia who want to extend the Sharia law to everyone. The right to choose, or refuse, the Sharia law must be maintaned.

Second point, the Thai authorities must respect those muslims living in the Southern provinces, and give equal rights and a feeling of dignaty and worth to everyone, Buddhist or Muslim living in the area. That means opening university places to Muslim or Buddhist, (or Christian for that matter) on the basis of merit not religion or ethnic derivation. That means that Thai born Buddhists must compete with Muslims not from Thai ethnic families fairly, and the results be percieved by everyone as fair and without religous bias.If that is not done, Moslims will always regard themselves as second-class Thais. If that perception continues, there is little chance to build respect and tolerence out of fear and predjudice.

Hope I didn't make this reply to long. And for Muslims, remember please that the core of Islam is true submisson to Allah and his law.

Edited August 2, 2005 by IMA_FARANG

[vasan_blr]

Don't they want to establish a Islamic law for Malaysia? Don't they want to insist of establishing their particular Islamic view for all Muslims in Malaysia? Please don't get me wrong, I have seen some Sharia law in effect, and unlike others I have on occasion been impressed by the core of honesty and respect for true justice in the Sharia law.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

By implementing Sharia, you mean to bring Thaliban (Previous rulers of Afganisthan) state to Malaysia ?. Do you want all the women to stay home, wearing Burka(a black cloth covering woman in full) in public places. If every country accepts Sharia, soon Thalibans may ask for a permanent seat in UN security council.

In Saudi Arabia Sharia works some how. There are no poor people to oppose this. Everyone is wealth and happy, no need to work or no stuggle in the life. There are foreign workers who takes care their oil sites and business. So, it works for them. Once oil is run out let us see Sharia works or not?.

[zaz]

Well said IMA_FARANG!

I will reiterate the last line "remember please that the core of Islam is true submisson to Allah and his law" if there was ever such thing as a Muslim fundamentalist then this is the fundamental principle of Islam that he/she would uphold.

Edited August 2, 2005 by zaz

[Artisan]

"What more than 95 per cent of all suicide terrorist attacks around the world have in common is not religion, but a specific political goal to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland or prize greatly."  Robert Pape

What do the three Southern Provinces have that the rest of Thailand wants?

Is there oil or other natural resources down there?

Why not just give them autonomy? Let them form their own country?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Of the 25 posts so far, this is the only sensible one that trys to identify the source of the problem, and brings us closer to a solution.

The rest of us seem to accept and label the terror incidents in Thailand, London, Egypt and so on as "Muslim". Why is this label being applied? What assumptions come along with the use of the term "Muslim"? How does this allow politicians to avoid responsibility for solving the problem?

First, I cant remember any CREDIBLE reports where the perpetrators claim that their aim is to convert the attacked nation to islam. These acts are political violence, with a political aim or to get revenge for percived injustice, or to resist occupation.

Second, Unless the general public wake up to the implication of the use of the label "Muslim", there will no end to this problem. The motivation for these acts is not the spread of Islam. This is not an apology for that religion, which I also find distasteful, but a statement of fact.

Thirdly, The ruling politiclans and compliant media have created this label, precisely to stop the public thinking about the reasons for these terror actions. They dont want us to see what is driving these attacks, and they hijack our feeling of outrage, by presenting us with "eye for a eye" solutions that lead nowhere. They appeal to the desire for revenge so that they can continue to carry on with the policies that cause the problem in the first place. The american public is a prime example of an unthinking and gullible electorate, and we must not become like them, otherwise we will end up losing our values of justice and civilisation, just as they have in the fight against political violence.

From palestine, iraq, alqueida, pattani, the reasons are different and varied, and if we simplify all these to "Muslim" then we have no chance of a peaceful future.

Finally, Stop using the term Muslim and start thinking about the problem in the context of poltical terror, or political violence, and start asking what can be done to choke this problem at the source

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OK, I stand to be corrected but, if they are not "Muslim", what are they then?

[ozzydom]

okay sure, some of you were not accusing Muslims ! Just wanted to say a few things. Sorry to have sounded offish. Venting my own frustrations. I am just, like you all, a bit tired of all this bombing in the world. And I am also scared. Where will it end? I kknow from living in an Islamic community that there is solidarity and that the fundamentalists will never stop. So it's scary.

Hey on a silly note, I am new to using this forum, how do I do things like change my user name or add a little picture please. Also, if I bookmark it will it come up on the same page or on different topics? Cheers in advance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Glad to see an intelligent post. You must remember that often when bad things happen it is human nature to lash out at those who are "different'. This is often just a knee-jerk reaction to the pain felt at what was done. Some of the posters on this forum reacted just that way. It just proves they are human beings. They feel pain, they feel anger, and they want to strike back at anyone without really thinking why and who they hit.

I spent 5 years in Saudi Arabia, and I have spent some time studying Islam. I never converted, but a good friend of mine did, (Honestly so he could marry a Muslim woman), and I also studied at the same time. Like every religion, if the core religious teachings were followed, it would be a liberating thing. There are however always those who bring their own hates and prejudice to what they read into the religion. That is true of Chritianity, Judisim, or Buddhism. It is human nature.

Having said that let me make two points. First, some people on this forum are blaming Pakistan and the Madressa system. While that is partly true, the fundamentalist Islamic problem is much closer to home in Thailand's case. Are there not provinces in Malaysia that are trying to make Sharia the law for their province. Don't they want to establish a Islamic law for Malaysia? Don't they want to insist of establishing their particular Islamic view for all Muslims in Malaysia? Please don't get me wrong, I have seen some Sharia law in effect, and unlike others For example, no case may be brought against a person unless their is a complainant that will publically stand against the person accused. no anonymous accustations. There was a case in Jeddah in which an anonymous letter accused a person of defrauding from a Saudi company. The police investigated this anonymous letter, and found out the claim of fraud was true. However, the Sharia court refused to bring a case against the defendent. Reason was, there was no person willing to piblically accuse the alleged defrauder. It is a prime point of Sharia, that for every accustation, someone must come from to bring the accusation. In the case above, the only charge was given by an anonymous source. Therefore no charge could be made, as no public accuser came forward. However, to return to the point, there are certain people in Malysia who want to extend the Sharia law to everyone. The right to choose, or refuse, the Sharia law must be maintaned.

Second point, the Thai authorities must respect those muslims living in the Southern provinces, and give equal rights and a feeling of dignaty and worth to everyone, Buddhist or Muslim living in the area. That means opening university places to Muslim or Buddhist, (or Christian for that matter) on the basis of merit not religion or ethnic derivation. That means that Thai born Buddhists must compete with Muslims not from Thai ethnic families fairly, and the results be percieved by everyone as fair and without religous bias.If that is not done, Moslims will always regard themselves as second-class Thais. If that perception continues, there is little chance to build respect and tolerence out of fear and predjudice.

Hope I didn't make this reply to long. And for Muslims, remember please that the core of Islam is true submisson to Allah and his law.

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I have on occasion been impressed by the core of honesty and respect for true justice in the Sharia law. Isnt this the law that dictates that a womans testimony is only half the value of a mans,can only inherit half the value of a mans and after divorce must hand any children back to the man after weaning.Some law

[Artisan]

"What more than 95 per cent of all suicide terrorist attacks around the world have in common is not religion, but a specific political goal to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland or prize greatly."  Robert Pape

What do the three Southern Provinces have that the rest of Thailand wants?

Is there oil or other natural resources down there?

Why not just give them autonomy? Let them form their own country?

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Of the 25 posts so far, this is the only sensible one that trys to identify the source of the problem, and brings us closer to a solution.

The rest of us seem to accept and label the terror incidents in Thailand, London, Egypt and so on as "Muslim". Why is this label being applied? What assumptions come along with the use of the term "Muslim"? How does this allow politicians to avoid responsibility for solving the problem?

First, I cant remember any CREDIBLE reports where the perpetrators claim that their aim is to convert the attacked nation to islam. These acts are political violence, with a political aim or to get revenge for percived injustice, or to resist occupation.

Second, Unless the general public wake up to the implication of the use of the label "Muslim", there will no end to this problem. The motivation for these acts is not the spread of Islam. This is not an apology for that religion, which I also find distasteful, but a statement of fact.

Thirdly, The ruling politiclans and compliant media have created this label, precisely to stop the public thinking about the reasons for these terror actions. They dont want us to see what is driving these attacks, and they hijack our feeling of outrage, by presenting us with "eye for a eye" solutions that lead nowhere. They appeal to the desire for revenge so that they can continue to carry on with the policies that cause the problem in the first place. The american public is a prime example of an unthinking and gullible electorate, and we must not become like them, otherwise we will end up losing our values of justice and civilisation, just as they have in the fight against political violence.

From palestine, iraq, alqueida, pattani, the reasons are different and varied, and if we simplify all these to "Muslim" then we have no chance of a peaceful future.

Finally, Stop using the term Muslim and start thinking about the problem in the context of poltical terror, or political violence, and start asking what can be done to choke this problem at the source

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Ok, if they are not "Muslims" are they "freedom fighters"or "warriors". What about the Taliban, were they at the receiving end of injustice or were they victims of occupation? After the London bombings, one correspondent on this Forum said that all Muslims should be assumed to be terrorists until they can prove otherwise. Hear! Hear!

[zaz]

vasan_blr - Make that two Muslims. Allow me to attempt to anwser your questions...

"Can you please explain the what so called "Jihad" going on this world ?. As you said if Islam loves humans and peace, why are they killing innocent people on the name of "Jihad". "

Answer:

Jihad is the name given to Holy war. Jihad was fought in the time of the Prohet Mohammed (PBUH) when the opposers of Islam and the Muslims fought an "official" battle ON A BATTLEGROUND. Even during such a war there were rules and regulations for the Muslims i.e. not to harm certain people or kill innocents etc etc. HOWEVER, this "Jihad" you are referring to which is supposedly in your opinion taking place right now is actually no Jihad whatsoever in its true meaning. No one Muslim in the World who has the appropriate authority according to his standing has declared a Jihad. It is not possible for this to happen. As many of you have openly discussed, this is happening purely as a result of the narrow-minded few who are using religion to their political advantage. Therefore, all this killing of innocent people is not in the name of Jihad as Islam forbids this UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, fact.

"Does Islam respect other religions like Christianity, Buddhism, Sikh, Hindu,... etc. Do you also respect there are other ways to reach the heaven or God than Islam. Do you respect other human’s life and blood. Do you respect other religious places like Church, Wat, Temple, Etc."

Answer:

Yes Islam absolutely respects other religions and their places of worship - Many religions have similar basic beliefs anyway. I personally think Wats and many churches are absolutely beautiful places to visit in terms of appreciating their architecture/design and just getting a sense of peace by being inside them. Islam absolutely forbids any form of violence/grievance towards people of other religions. However, Islam suggests to Muslims to be a good example to others so that they may be attracted to Islam themselves but never force Islam upon others as this will sway them away.

No Islam does not accept there are other ways to reach heaven/God. This is because Islam was the last religion/message from God and hence supercedes all previous messages that were also sent by the same God. It's kind of like successions in governments. You have one political party in govt at one time but when its term is finished and another get's elected then you follow the rules and laws of the new govt not the old one. That's a very brief and basic analogy and this particular point is a very lengthy one to discuss so I will leave it there for now.

Yes of course Islam respects other human life/blood.

"Why does Parvaz Musharaf suddenly cracking down the religious institutions in Pakistan?. Why he is sending back all the foreign students learning religious studies back to their own country? What is the urgent necessity now ?"

Answer:

He is doing this (following the London bombings) because of the accused link of terrorism with the Madrassa's in Pakistan and wants to be seen as trying to cut this link as best he can. Why is this urgent now? Better late than never I guess!

"Don’t you think Muslims also need other technical education like Mathematics and Science for their own living skills ?"

Answer:

Absolutely agree. But don't forget in some Muslim nations they cannot afford an education. I personnally am an accountant. I went to shcool and college and then university and obtained an BA(Hons) degree. My family are very well educated also. I am very grateful to God for this as many don't have the same opportunities in life. Islam explicitly encourages education and knowledge alongside knowledge of Islam (not in place of, obviously).

"Do you respect your own women’s rights?. If you allow them to have proper education and knowlede about the world to allow them think. Then only they can teach good thinking to their children better than anyone else in the world. Then only the entire world can change."

Answer:

The subject of women in Islam is always one that is very much misunderstood. The fact is if women were actually treated according to Islam then they would certainly not be assumed to be mistreated. A lot of what is actually going on is a result of very old traditions and cultures. Islam protects and respects women. Is it not true that the man (the male!) is...well...weak at controlling his sexual desires?...ahem. Now let me put it to you - Compare a situation where women are fully covered, there is no sexual commercialisation, TV, advertising etc with a situation where women are scantily clad, there is sex in your face in advertising, on TV etc etc now which situation is actually shows respect for a woman? I know this will be a matter of debate...

"One thing is for sure religious extremism is not good for any religion not only Islam. If everyone practices their beliefs at home, in side the doors there will not be any problem in the world."

Answer:

I agree with the first sentence but not the second. Because in Islam we believe this to be the true and final message from God then if we practice it behind closed doors then we are denying non-Muslims the opprotunity to come to Islam and obtain success in the hereafter (heaven) and save themselves from Hellfire. If I practiced Islam behind closed doors and my next door neighbour of another religion died and went to hellfire then I would be partly responsible for him and also be punished because I didn't invite him to share the success Islam offers.

"Racism is an outdated history now. We are talking about religious extremism and wrong interpretation in the world."

Answer:

There is no place for racism at any time or place but it probably always will be around. Did you know Islam also encourages marriages of mixed race?

Religious extremism is actually a bit of a misnomer. Because people don't understand the concept of the religion in question they assume certain people are taking that religion to the extreme, hence, extremism. This is actually untrue and should be called political extremism because if Islam was taken to the extreme then what a wonderful and peaceful World we would live in today...?

"Read, think and answer. Thanking in advance for answering my questions."

Answer:

Read, thought about and answered as honestly as I could.

Let me just take the opportunity to say that some of the comments I have read on this post are particularly disturbing and upsetting to me as a Muslim. I can speak on behalf of millions of Muslims around the world and say that we absolutely, without reservation, condemn all acts involving killing innocent people. There is no place for terrorism in Islam now and there never has been in the past and there never will be in the future - Amin.

May God protect us from this evil, may God help us learn from each other and respect each others beliefs and may God help us all live in peace TOGETHER.

This World is a beautiful place with beautiful people let's try and keep it that way. As a Muslim I forgive any of the above comments that have caused me offence and offer a peaceful handshake to each and every one of you....

Yours,

Zaz, in the UK

Edited August 2, 2005 by zaz