Russian Arms Dealer Viktor Bout Arrives In US From Thailand

[mca]

Oh, and several of you made my last point so well.

Enjoy your bandwagon.

To be honest you were the first one to bring the subject of USA bashing up mate. Sort of like sticking a rather large " KICK ME " sign on your back.

No actually mine was a response to a comment on the bashing that was already in full swing in several threads.

My apologies.

[geriatrickid]

why do u think the world needs an excuse to bash the US?

There are plenty of good reasons.....i just remember the weapons of mass destruction ...lol

You mean the weapons that Bout supplied that left tens of thousands of Liberians and Sierra Leone citizens dead and produced 2 generations of emotional and physicaal cripples?

This is not a thread to discuss the errors of multiple intelligence agencies. Former President Bush has admitted the error. Although it is convenient to blame the USA for that error, the USA was not alone. Other national intelligence agencies had come to the same conclusion particularly since the Iraqi President said he had them. In any case, I think you will find that the majority of people speaking out on the need to extradite Bout opposed the Iraqi war or have expressed negative views on the WMD. I am probably one of the few people that supported the former President Bush's conclusions. So if you want a piece of me, come and try and get it. In the meantime, you are attempting to shift the attention away from Mr. Bout, a man that facilitated genocide, murder and rape.

Edited November 17, 2010 by geriatrickid

[LaoPo]

I'm not sure about the UK but the feeling here in Oz from people I know is that we don't trust or like the US because they lied to us and we blindly followed.

Don't worry about it though, many also hate our own government of the time for blindly following.

Bush lied to all Americans too, we like it as little as you do.

Sadly some are still blindly following his lead. Most are not.

Sadly, many of the Irag allies were lied upon too and it was my own (now previous) government doing ANYTHING possible to avoid a public hearing about it's role "dealing" with the GWB administration and the CIA lies in the Irag WOMD's allegations and what's worse....they succeeded and the hearing never took place, only because the PM's (J.P. Balkenende) alliance-government had a (than) majority in Parliament

He was severely punished, earlier this year, when his party lost 50% (!) of the seats in Parliament, down to 21 seats out of a total of 150 seats.

Weird enough they're now (again) in the new minority Government, supported by a new right wing party; more or less the same as in Denmark.

But, it was absolutely disgusting to see our former PM, Mr. Jan-Peter Balkenende, visiting GWB (and Dick Cheney) in the White House, looking like a 1st grade schoolboy in the presence of the all mighty GWB , so utterly impressed as he seemed to be with the great leader.

The PM of a tiny country, able shake hands with GWB.., was avoiding the wish of the majority of the Dutch people demanding an investigation about the role of the Government (my Government) before and during the Iraq "conflict" and WHY it sent troops there........

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=QE86t_VltBs

GWB: "......You''ve been one of the <can't hear> factors in the war...&.......You're one of the leaders in Europe and we thank you for that...."

Disgusting and I'm heavily criticizing my own government here!

LaoPo

[moetownblues]

Who gave the Americans the power and Authorisation to run around grabing citizens of other countries when they have not committed any offence in the U.S or broken any U.S laws. Who do these people think they are? They did this to David Hicks an Australian citizen, shackled him and locked him up for 5 yrs and never even laid a single charge on him. Finnally released him after 5 yrs without charge. Americans need to pull thier bloody heads in and look after thier own bloody back yard. They are turning the entire world against them and it could end up in thier destruction if they are not careful.

[mark45y]

Who gave the Americans the power and Authorisation to run around grabing citizens of other countries when they have not committed any offence in the U.S or broken any U.S laws. Who do these people think they are? They did this to David Hicks an Australian citizen, shackled him and locked him up for 5 yrs and never even laid a single charge on him. Finnally released him after 5 yrs without charge. Americans need to pull thier bloody heads in and look after thier own bloody back yard. They are turning the entire world against them and it could end up in thier destruction if they are not careful.

Are you really that uniformed? David Matthew Hicks (born 7 August 1975) is an Australian who undertook combat training in al Qaeda-linked camps and served with the ruling Taliban regime in Afghanistan in 2001. In 1999, Hicks converted to Islam and took the name Muhammed Dawood. He was captured in Afghanistan in December 2001 by the Afghan Northern Alliance and sold for a $1000 bounty to the United States military. In April 2007, Hicks was returned to Australia to serve the remaining nine months of a suspended seven-year sentence.

This guy fought for the Taliban! It is not like the US picked him up out of his backyard in Australia!

Maybe you thought Victor was in Thailand for the waters? He was selling weapons.

[lensta]

A nation that thinks it is their right to invent charges (and crimes) and apply them globally deserves ridicule.

Or for the love of Fascism, don't come complaining when others do the same.

Tawp, I have to agree with you. Also if you want to police the world then you should

make sure that your own backyard is reasonably clean. Have the US ever sold

arms and backed persons and groups from other countries? Ah that is ok because the

US says it is. What was the story with the Iran Contra and Oliver North, didn't that involve

arms sales?

[mark45y]

A nation that thinks it is their right to invent charges (and crimes) and apply them globally deserves ridicule.

Or for the love of Fascism, don't come complaining when others do the same.

What charges and crimes were invented?

[mark45y]

A nation that thinks it is their right to invent charges (and crimes) and apply them globally deserves ridicule.

Or for the love of Fascism, don't come complaining when others do the same.

Tawp, I have to agree with you. Also if you want to police the world then you should

make sure that your own backyard is reasonably clean. Have the US ever sold

arms and backed persons and groups from other countries? Ah that is ok because the

US says it is. What was the story with the Iran Contra and Oliver North, didn't that involve

arms sales?

Because the US sells arms that gives every private person in the world a right to sell arms? Because a soldier has a machine gun everyone gets to have a machine gun? Do you know how silly you sound?

[metisdead]

Who gave the Americans the power and Authorisation to run around grabing citizens of other countries when they have not committed any offence in the U.S or broken any U.S laws. Who do these people think they are? They did this to David Hicks an Australian citizen, shackled him and locked him up for 5 yrs and never even laid a single charge on him. Finnally released him after 5 yrs without charge. Americans need to pull thier bloody heads in and look after thier own bloody back yard. They are turning the entire world against them and it could end up in thier destruction if they are not careful.

David Hicks:

Yep, a model Australian citizen.

[gorillagrower]

Shouldn't this effectively end all the Victor Bout threads? The guy was caught and arrested (arrested by Thai police). The guy's extradition was approved. A second set of charges that would have slowed extradition down from Thailand were dropped. The guy's lawyers tried to get charges reinstated to slow down extradition. They weren't reinstated and he was extradited in accordance with Thai law and the extradition treaty that Thailand has with the US.

Likely there will be USA bashing threads bringing this up for sometime.

Just as yet another excuse to bash USA.

Yeah and frankly so there should be, the blatant bias in this article "Viktor Bout allegedly jumped at the chance to arm narco-terrorists bent on killing Americans with an arsenal of military grade weapons,". "for use against US helicopters in Colombia" Thats like saying Gun store owners are responsible for any murder with a gun bought from their store. The US and the UK arm Israel who on recored bomb schools with white sulpherous. How about some other real horror crimes like the rape and sodamy of childen at Abū Ghurayb, the child prostitution run by blackwater, british sas setting car bombs in Basra's central square during a a major religious event.

If I were DEA working Columbia and someone was agreeing to sell

Surface to Air Missels to FARC I would assume without equivocation

it was with the aim to kill me or coworkers in a helicopter or spotter plane.

And since gun store owners legally do not sell SAMS to people,

that fact someone is doing it doesn't put him on the same

legal level or standing as a simple gun store owner.

This has nothing to do with the army or incidents of individuals going rogue in Abu Grahb or Isreal.

So don't imagine clouding the issue changes it a bit.

Yeah off the tread topic I raise up my hands, The gun store line was clearly an example, Arms dealers like V.Bout are not allowed to sell to the Farc, under what Law? 'Spotter Plane' I think you mean the DEA coke cargo line. Your right it has no relevance to the other REAL crimes i mentioned, but the reason I included them as they are all far more worth extensive investigation than how V.Bout amassed his fortune, yet none of them will ever be looked into. The fact you claim the likes of Black waters child prostitution rings ect as "individuals going rogue" shows your not as clued in as you come aross.

[TAWP]

A nation that thinks it is their right to invent charges (and crimes) and apply them globally deserves ridicule.

Or for the love of Fascism, don't come complaining when others do the same.

What charges and crimes were invented?

Any charges related to terrorism or presumed mortal threat to American soldiers and agents in regards to selling arms to two actors agents pretending to front an organization that the US conveniently have labeled a terrorist-organization, so they can bypass normal legislation. (Anything a terrorist group is doing was illegal even before special terrorist-laws was passed...)

A person is about to write contracts of wares that he sells to two individuals that might be from Micky Mouse Club or FARC, he doesn't care. He is a salesman. The latter is branded 'special' and suddenly the crime that selling wares to this group creates [making the seller a terrorist too!] makes it a big enough crime to get the person extradited for a crime that neither has taken place in the US nor ever would take place in the US. Not even the presumed, imaginary, killings of American soldiers and DEA agents would have been carried out in the US. And especially not by Bout.

I heard that someone in FARC bought a car from GM. Can we expect GM's CEO to be arrested any day now?

[gorillagrower]

A nation that thinks it is their right to invent charges (and crimes) and apply them globally deserves ridicule.

Or for the love of Fascism, don't come complaining when others do the same.

Tawp, I have to agree with you. Also if you want to police the world then you should

make sure that your own backyard is reasonably clean. Have the US ever sold

arms and backed persons and groups from other countries? Ah that is ok because the

US says it is. What was the story with the Iran Contra and Oliver North, didn't that involve

arms sales?

Because the US sells arms that gives every private person in the world a right to sell arms? Because a soldier has a machine gun everyone gets to have a machine gun? Do you know how silly you sound?

What are you talking about, do you think the US Goverment state ownes weapon manufacturers? BAE Systems a british Defence group is a "private" company as is every other Defense contractor. So yes V.Bout and his many cargo companys has as much right to be a arms trafficker as northrop grumman general dynamics or Lockheed martin.

Edited November 17, 2010 by gorillagrower

[george]

Alleged Russian arms dealer pleads not guilty

by Luis Torres de la Llosa

NEW YORK, November 17, 2010 (AFP) - Russia's so-called "Merchant of Death," accused of running a global arms empire, pleaded not guilty to terrorism charges here Wednesday, after being extradited from Thailand against Moscow's wishes.

"He will plead not guilty," a lawyer for Viktor Bout, 43, said in a New York federal court.

Judge Shira Scheindlin then ordered Bout to remain in detention until a hearing set for January 10. Bout faces a maximum penalty of life in prison and minimum of 25 years if found guilty.

US prosecutors allege he ran one of the world's most extensive arms trafficking networks and was trapped in a 2008 sting operation in which he believed he was selling a large arsenal to Colombia's FARC narco-guerrillas, designated a terrorist organization by Washington.

Despite his allegedly lucrative weapons empire, Bout insisted to the judge that he needed a court-appointed lawyer.

Bout is charged with attempting to sell Colombia's FARC rebels an arsenal of surface-to-air missiles and infantry weapons between November 2007 and March 2008.

The FARC representative he allegedly thought he was meeting in Bangkok was in fact a US undercover agent from the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA).

According to Preet Bharara, US attorney for Manhattan, Bout allegedly planned to sell FARC more than 700 surface-to-air missiles, 5,000 Kalashnikov assault rifles, landmines, millions of rounds of ammunition, and ultra-light airplanes that could be fitted with weaponry.

"It was an arsenal that would be the envy of some small countries," Bharara told a news conference.

Bout arrived in New York late Tuesday after a dramatic exit from Thailand, which only agreed to his extradition after two years of legal battles and intense pressure from Moscow and Washington.

US Attorney General Eric Holder called Bout's capture "a victory for the rule of law worldwide," and Colombian President Juan Manuel Santos told reporters in Bogota that Bout "should pay."

But Russia said the burly, mustachioed Bout had been subjected to an "illegal extradition." Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Moscow would support Bout "by all means" from "extreme injustice."

The row, which follows another storm over the US authorities' unmasking of a Russian spy ring earlier this year, threatened a new disruption to President Barack Obama's policy of building closer ties with Moscow.

Analysts said the harsh reaction indicated alarm in Moscow that Bout might give away secrets about the extensive and often murky weapons dealing businesses run from the ex-Soviet Union.

A former Soviet air force officer said to speak six languages and operate under even more aliases, Bout insists he is an legitimate businessman.

However, Washington alleges that the arms he has sold or brokered fueled conflicts and supported warring regimes in Afghanistan, Angola, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Liberia, Rwanda, Sierra Leone and Sudan.

His clients have allegedly included the Taliban and Al-Qaeda, while his payments allegedly ran from hard cash to blood diamonds.

His alleged exploits earned him the nickname "Merchant of Death" and "Lord of War," after a movie starring Nicholas Cage who is said to have modeled his character on Bout.

"For more than a decade, Mr Bout is alleged to have plied a deadly trade in surface-to-air missiles, land mines, bullets, death and destruction," said Michele Leonhart, acting administrator of the DEA.

"Fortunately, with his arrest, extradition, and pending prosecution in the Southern District of New York, his last alleged attempt to deal in death means that he will finally face justice."

Bout denies all those claims and his wife, Alla, told AFP that he was the real victim.

"Viktor doesn't have any secrets that can be useful to the United States. I think the US will play him as a card in their political game with the Russian government," she said.

The Russian embassy in Bangkok said it had been taken by surprise by the lightening-fast extradition.

Escorted by dozens of armed Thai police commandos and with snipers deployed along the route, Bout was whisked from a maximum security Bangkok prison to a waiting US government plane.

"The operation had to be carried out quickly because of the possibility of an ambush and assassination on the way," Colonel Supisarn Bhakdinarunart, commander of Thailand's Crime Suppression Division, told AFP.

"The embassy got no official information from the Thais. It seems a little strange for us. It was done in such a hurry," said Andrey Dvornikov, head of the consular section.

"They have given nothing, no warning for the embassy, for the wife, for the lawyer -- nothing," he told AFP.

-- (c) Copyright AFP 2010-11-18

[whybother]

Any charges related to terrorism or presumed mortal threat to American soldiers and agents in regards to selling arms to two actors agents pretending to front an organization that the US conveniently have labeled a terrorist-organization, so they can bypass normal legislation. (Anything a terrorist group is doing was illegal even before special terrorist-laws was passed...)

A person is about to write contracts of wares that he sells to two individuals that might be from Micky Mouse Club or FARC, he doesn't care. He is a salesman. The latter is branded 'special' and suddenly the crime that selling wares to this group creates [making the seller a terrorist too!] makes it a big enough crime to get the person extradited for a crime that neither has taken place in the US nor ever would take place in the US. Not even the presumed, imaginary, killings of American soldiers and DEA agents would have been carried out in the US. And especially not by Bout.

I heard that someone in FARC bought a car from GM. Can we expect GM's CEO to be arrested any day now?

What about laws stopping funding of "terrorist" groups? Where do they sit, in your opinion?

[msg362]

Shouldn't this effectively end all the Victor Bout threads? The guy was caught and arrested (arrested by Thai police). The guy's extradition was approved. A second set of charges that would have slowed extradition down from Thailand were dropped. The guy's lawyers tried to get charges reinstated to slow down extradition. They weren't reinstated and he was extradited in accordance with Thai law and the extradition treaty that Thailand has with the US.

Likely there will be USA bashing threads bringing this up for sometime.

Just as yet another excuse to bash USA.

Yeah and frankly so there should be, the blatant bias in this article "Viktor Bout allegedly jumped at the chance to arm narco-terrorists bent on killing Americans with an arsenal of military grade weapons,". "for use against US helicopters in Colombia" Thats like saying Gun store owners are responsible for any murder with a gun bought from their store. The US and the UK arm Israel who on recored bomb schools with white sulpherous. How about some other real horror crimes like the rape and sodamy of childen at Abū Ghurayb, the child prostitution run by blackwater, british sas setting car bombs in Basra's central square during a a major religious event.

??? Eh Where's the bias?'Allegedly' means just that, in other words he is said to have been keen to sell weapons. And yes, there are many horrors in the world world, but a thread on Victor Bout is not the place to raise them IMHO. This guy is better behind bars and the Thai police have done a great job in catching him. Enough surely.

[geriatrickid]

What are you talking about, do you think the US Goverment state ownes weapon manufacturers? BAE Systems a british Defence group is a "private" company as is every other Defense contractor. So yes V.Bout and his many cargo companys has as much right to be a arms trafficker as northrop grumman general dynamics or Lockheed martin.

The difference is that there is transparency and public scrutiny. When the UK companies make an arm sale, it cannot be to countries under a UN embargo or for the purposes of furthering crime or genocide. Same rule applies for the USA. The difference with Russia, Ukraine and China is that there is no transparency or public review. For example, when the US government indicated its support of the sale of jet fighters to Saudi Arabia, the proposed transaction will be vetterd and will have to comply with the applicable laws governing military weapon exports. Congress still has the ability to nix the proposal. When China proposed selling its hi tech jet fighters to Iran, where was the public scrutiny or discussion? What mechanism of oversight is in place? This is why Mr. Bout sold Russian and Ukrainian sourced weapons in Liberia and Sierra Leone. Western countries would not have allowed such sales and more importantly there would have been a public outcry. Where was the outcry in Russia? Do you think it is because Russia did not allow discussion of the transactions?

[gorillagrower]

Mr Bout faces 25 years in prison if convicted for these horse s**t conspiracy to murder charges, brought about by the most blantant entrapment by the DEA, two years in BKK hilton, the whole case stinks. He is charged with conspiracy to kill US nationals and government officers, conspiracy to use an anti-aircraft missile and conspiracy to provide material support or resources to a designated foreign terrorist organisation. Yet there were never any agents of the Farc only a DEA setup.

@ Marky45----- "This guy fought for the Taliban!" Your point being what? The Taliban had tea with Bush at the white house.5 yrs without charge for what "combat training with al Ciada' God no not the men in caves with sandles and rusty ak47s. "Because the US sells arms that gives every private person in the world a right to sell arms?" REPOST- do you think the US Goverment state ownes weapon manufacturers? BAE Systems a british Defence group is a "private" company as is every other Defense contractor. So yes V.Bout and his many cargo companys has as much right to be a arms trafficker as northrop grumman general dynamics or Lockheed martin.

"Maybe you thought Victor was in Thailand for the waters? He was selling weapons" Again your point being what? Mr Bout has amassed his $6bn fortune from his arms dealing.

Not guilty case closed

[brahmburgers]

It's a matter of degrees. I'm an American, yet I admit the US has sold dangerous weapons to shady characters and their regimes in the past. Nicaragua is one prime example, though the perpetrators were later called on the congressional carpet and chastised for that at a public hearing.

Bout stepped waaaaay over the line, particularly with the alleged sales of serious weapons to places in West Africa, Colombia, NE Africa and elsewhere where blatant oppression was taking place. Again it's a matter of degrees. If someone has a gun shop, there's a difference between him selling to people who appear to be responsible adults, than selling to cracked-out members of a youth gang. A difference between selling to a police force, than selling to a group of bloodied men who come through the shop door in a vindictive rage.

There's a nasty war going on in Central east Africa as we speak. Villagers are getting killed and raped in Biblical proportions, in a wide swath of territory. Would Bout supporters condone him selling automatic weapons to the perpetrators of those crimes?

[mark45y]

A nation that thinks it is their right to invent charges (and crimes) and apply them globally deserves ridicule.

Or for the love of Fascism, don't come complaining when others do the same.

What charges and crimes were invented?

Any charges related to terrorism or presumed mortal threat to American soldiers and agents in regards to selling arms to two actors agents pretending to front an organization that the US conveniently have labeled a terrorist-organization, so they can bypass normal legislation. (Anything a terrorist group is doing was illegal even before special terrorist-laws was passed...)

A person is about to write contracts of wares that he sells to two individuals that might be from Micky Mouse Club or FARC, he doesn't care. He is a salesman. The latter is branded 'special' and suddenly the crime that selling wares to this group creates [making the seller a terrorist too!] makes it a big enough crime to get the person extradited for a crime that neither has taken place in the US nor ever would take place in the US. Not even the presumed, imaginary, killings of American soldiers and DEA agents would have been carried out in the US. And especially not by Bout.

I heard that someone in FARC bought a car from GM. Can we expect GM's CEO to be arrested any day now?

Do you really equate buying a GM auto with thousands of tons of arms and ammunition to groups under a UN weapons embargo?

[TAWP]

It's a matter of degrees. I'm an American, yet I admit the US has sold dangerous weapons to shady characters and their regimes in the past. Nicaragua is one prime example, though the perpetrators were later called on the congressional carpet and chastised for that at a public hearing.

Bout stepped waaaaay over the line, particularly with the alleged sales of serious weapons to places in West Africa, Colombia, NE Africa and elsewhere where blatant oppression was taking place. Again it's a matter of degrees. If someone has a gun shop, there's a difference between him selling to people who appear to be responsible adults, than selling to cracked-out members of a youth gang. A difference between selling to a police force, than selling to a group of bloodied men who come through the shop door in a vindictive rage.

There's a nasty war going on in Central east Africa as we speak. Villagers are getting killed and raped in Biblical proportions, in a wide swath of territory. Would Bout supporters condone him selling automatic weapons to the perpetrators of those crimes?

In both your examples you are condemning the selling of arms to colored people?

People in Africa is only allowed to own farming-tools?

Non-withstanding that the biggest genocide in recent history in Africa was carried out with machetes and axes. And was mostly ignored before, during and after the event by the UN Security Counsel.

[craigt3365]

What are you talking about, do you think the US Goverment state ownes weapon manufacturers? BAE Systems a british Defence group is a "private" company as is every other Defense contractor. So yes V.Bout and his many cargo companys has as much right to be a arms trafficker as northrop grumman general dynamics or Lockheed martin.

The difference is that there is transparency and public scrutiny. When the UK companies make an arm sale, it cannot be to countries under a UN embargo or for the purposes of furthering crime or genocide. Same rule applies for the USA. The difference with Russia, Ukraine and China is that there is no transparency or public review. For example, when the US government indicated its support of the sale of jet fighters to Saudi Arabia, the proposed transaction will be vetterd and will have to comply with the applicable laws governing military weapon exports. Congress still has the ability to nix the proposal. When China proposed selling its hi tech jet fighters to Iran, where was the public scrutiny or discussion? What mechanism of oversight is in place? This is why Mr. Bout sold Russian and Ukrainian sourced weapons in Liberia and Sierra Leone. Western countries would not have allowed such sales and more importantly there would have been a public outcry. Where was the outcry in Russia? Do you think it is because Russia did not allow discussion of the transactions?

Seems the USA bashers can't see the reality behind this. In their mind, it's just an example of the USA trying to take over the world. Thailand did the arrest...and the US was here as part of the operation. I'm sure it would be difficult for a Thai to pass themselves off as a Colombian! No way could the US just "drop" in. Just like many other countries who are here helping Thailand out in a variety of other matters. I.E. Child prostitution, drugs, terrorist threats, etc.

LaoPo: you indicate we are too sensitive to bashing of the US. I am from the US, but live here now. And I haven't lived in the US for many years. Here is a ridiculous statement made on another thread yesterday:

American junk food in Thailand we do not need...................!!!

i agree buddy .

ps. we dont need americans ,,,,anymore.

DIE DOLLAR DIE

Here's another in this thread:

Okay, not so much americans, even though the trend for this unhealthy eating began there. No, it's the corporate companies to blame, but they're all mostly american, so yep, it's back to blaming the americans! It's them producing all this food that is unhealthy, yet they deliberately make the foods addictive. It's them who do the advertising and entice the citizens to eat all this stuff.

Their previous post had blamed the American's for Thai's current unhealthy food diet. Unreal. And then in this post blame the American's for creating unhealthy food. And then say all corporate companies involved in unhealthy food are from America.

See what we are up against? A lot of ridiculous people making ridiculous statements. So, sure...we're gonna defend ourselves against this crazy stuff. If you saw this on a daily basis for your country, what would you do? I know where you are from, I know your country is not in the news as much...but you understand my comment.

American is the biggest economy in the world. The biggest in many areas. So our visibility is naturally going to be higher than, say, Sri Lanka. Just makes sense.

[mark45y]

Mr Bout faces 25 years in prison if convicted for these horse s**t conspiracy to murder charges, brought about by the most blantant entrapment by the DEA, two years in BKK hilton, the whole case stinks. He is charged with conspiracy to kill US nationals and government officers, conspiracy to use an anti-aircraft missile and conspiracy to provide material support or resources to a designated foreign terrorist organisation. Yet there were never any agents of the Farc only a DEA setup.

@ Marky45----- "This guy fought for the Taliban!" Your point being what? The Taliban had tea with Bush at the white house.5 yrs without charge for what "combat training with al Ciada' God no not the men in caves with sandles and rusty ak47s. "Because the US sells arms that gives every private person in the world a right to sell arms?" REPOST- do you think the US Goverment state ownes weapon manufacturers? BAE Systems a british Defence group is a "private" company as is every other Defense contractor. So yes V.Bout and his many cargo companys has as much right to be a arms trafficker as northrop grumman general dynamics or Lockheed martin.

"Maybe you thought Victor was in Thailand for the waters? He was selling weapons" Again your point being what? Mr Bout has amassed his $6bn fortune from his arms dealing.

Not guilty case closed

My point is. There is no such thing as free trade in weapons of war.

There are things in the world that are not legal for private individuals or companies to sell without approval from governments. There are UN sanctions and prohibitions against selling weapons to many countries. There are governments at war with other countries who prohibit weapons sales to those countries.

For example during the 1930's Japan invaded China and the US embargoed petroleum products and scrap steel from being sold to Japan. Anyone who sold petroleum or scrap steel to Japan was in violation of US law.

Now the UN looks at conflict situations and also embargoes weapons sales to certain countries. Sales of nuclear weapons along with conventional weapons of war are also under control of UN agencies.

Viktor Bout made his fortune violating weapons embargoes. He got caught. It is not legal to sell weapons of war to anyone who you want to sell them to. These sales have to be vetted through a government. If you don't do it you are may be in violation of international law and or UN sanctions.

Not guilty case closed!!! Hardly. He will be tried in a court of law. Maybe he will be found guilty maybe not. We will see.

[mark45y]

What are you talking about, do you think the US Goverment state ownes weapon manufacturers? BAE Systems a british Defence group is a "private" company as is every other Defense contractor. So yes V.Bout and his many cargo companys has as much right to be a arms trafficker as northrop grumman general dynamics or Lockheed martin.

The difference is that there is transparency and public scrutiny. When the UK companies make an arm sale, it cannot be to countries under a UN embargo or for the purposes of furthering crime or genocide. Same rule applies for the USA. The difference with Russia, Ukraine and China is that there is no transparency or public review. For example, when the US government indicated its support of the sale of jet fighters to Saudi Arabia, the proposed transaction will be vetterd and will have to comply with the applicable laws governing military weapon exports. Congress still has the ability to nix the proposal. When China proposed selling its hi tech jet fighters to Iran, where was the public scrutiny or discussion? What mechanism of oversight is in place? This is why Mr. Bout sold Russian and Ukrainian sourced weapons in Liberia and Sierra Leone. Western countries would not have allowed such sales and more importantly there would have been a public outcry. Where was the outcry in Russia? Do you think it is because Russia did not allow discussion of the transactions?

Other posters may be ignoring the obvious. The fact that I am in complete 100% agreement with everything geriatrickid has said on this topic and he has said it eloquently has got to tell you something. Geriatrickid and I never agree on anything.

[cdnvic]

Some off topic content deleted. Please return to discussing Viktor Bout.

[moetownblues]

Mr Bout faces 25 years in prison if convicted for these horse s**t conspiracy to murder charges, brought about by the most blantant entrapment by the DEA, two years in BKK hilton, the whole case stinks. He is charged with conspiracy to kill US nationals and government officers, conspiracy to use an anti-aircraft missile and conspiracy to provide material support or resources to a designated foreign terrorist organisation. Yet there were never any agents of the Farc only a DEA setup.

@ Marky45----- "This guy fought for the Taliban!" Your point being what? The Taliban had tea with Bush at the white house.5 yrs without charge for what "combat training with al Ciada' God no not the men in caves with sandles and rusty ak47s. "Because the US sells arms that gives every private person in the world a right to sell arms?" REPOST- do you think the US Goverment state ownes weapon manufacturers? BAE Systems a british Defence group is a "private" company as is every other Defense contractor. So yes V.Bout and his many cargo companys has as much right to be a arms trafficker as northrop grumman general dynamics or Lockheed martin.

"Maybe you thought Victor was in Thailand for the waters? He was selling weapons" Again your point being what? Mr Bout has amassed his $6bn fortune from his arms dealing.

Not guilty case closed

Charges were first filed against Hicks in 2004 under a military commission system newly created by Presidential Order. Those proceedings failed in 2006 when the Supreme Court of the United States ruled, in Hamden V. Rumsfeld, that the Military Commission System was unconstitutional.Hicks should have been released then, but no the Americans lost face. (Just like Thais)

The military commission system was re-established by an act of the United States Congress, Revised charges were filed against Hicks in February 2007. (Double Jeopardy) If Hicks wanted to be released and go home he was conviced to accept an Alford plea (where the defendant does not admit the act and asserts innocence) Worked out for both parties Hicks was sent home and the Americans saved face. (Reminds you of the Thai Judicial System)

Former Pentagon chief Prosecutor Colonel Morris Davis later alleged political interference in the case by the Bush Administration in the United States and the Howard government in Australia. He also said that Hicks should not have been prosecuted.

Hicks was a political pawn and Victor Bout is going down the same path. The Victor Bout case is all about Politics and has nothing to do with alledged terrorism or the arms trade.

[craigt3365]

Hicks was a political pawn and Victor Bout is going down the same path. The Victor Bout case is all about Politics and has nothing to do with alledged terrorism or the arms trade.

All about politics? Tell that to the mothers who lost their children or husbands due to his weapons...or the children who no longer have a father...I would love you to try and explain that to them.

[moetownblues]

Hicks was a political pawn and Victor Bout is going down the same path. The Victor Bout case is all about Politics and has nothing to do with alledged terrorism or the arms trade.

All about politics? Tell that to the mothers who lost their children or husbands due to his weapons...or the children who no longer have a father...I would love you to try and explain that to them.

This man is not accused of starting wars or trible conflicts. It is alledged and only alledged that he dealt in arms. What if he was dealing then what do we say to the wives and mothers who's husbands and sons are still breathing. They would still be beating each other and defending themselves with clubs and spears regardless.

[hammered]

Hicks was a political pawn and Victor Bout is going down the same path. The Victor Bout case is all about Politics and has nothing to do with alledged terrorism or the arms trade.

All about politics? Tell that to the mothers who lost their children or husbands due to his weapons...or the children who no longer have a father...I would love you to try and explain that to them.

That is true. It equally explains why certain western ocuntries are hated by the people as opposed to governments in certain regions of the world. It would be interesting to see if there are more who have the feeling for Bout or for our own governments and military apparatus.

[mark45y]

Hicks was a political pawn and Victor Bout is going down the same path. The Victor Bout case is all about Politics and has nothing to do with alledged terrorism or the arms trade.

All about politics? Tell that to the mothers who lost their children or husbands due to his weapons...or the children who no longer have a father...I would love you to try and explain that to them.

This man is not accused of starting wars or trible conflicts. It is alledged and only alledged that he dealt in arms. What if he was dealing then what do we say to the wives and mothers who's husbands and sons are still breathing. They would still be beating each other and defending themselves with clubs and spears regardless.

Do you think it is OK for a person to sell weapons of war to anyone and an Australian national to join an Army fighting the Australian army in Afghanistan?