US Captors Of Alleged Arms Dealer Viktor Bout Detail Thailand Sting

[mark45y]

I remembered that I've read a few years ago,that USA manufacturing russian Ak-47 inside USA (in Nevada) and selling it in huge numbers all over world, especially to South America,(including probably Columbia)

I just checked on Internet and found 16 factories all over USA making , improving,modifying and selling them.

Here is link

http://www.ak-47.us/AK47_Manufacturers.php

I think it more factories in USA producing AK-47, than in whole world...

As far as I know the cost is around $1000 new and $500 used. New Bulgarian AK-47 $419.00. In some countries, prices for AKs are very low; in Somalia, Rwanda, Mozambique, Congo and Ethiopia, prices are between $30 and $125 per weapon. The World Bank estimates that out of the 500 million total firearms available worldwide, 100 million are of the Kalashnikov family, and 75 million of which are AK-47

In 1986, an amendment to the Firearm Owners Protection Act stopped all future domestic manufacturing of fully automatic weapons for civilian use (non-military/non-LEO).

Edited November 21, 2010 by mark45y

[fridgemagnet]

I don't see much difference between Victor Bout and Dennis Thatcher, or his charming son Mark.

The crime here is the same as Sadaams' - disobedience to America.

I guess the "sting" was to cause as little embarrassment to ally Thailand as possible - extraordinary rendition is still a favourite tactic, I believe.

I can't see that the guy did anything more wrong than most governments do regularly.

[mark45y]

I don't see much difference between Victor Bout and Dennis Thatcher, or his charming son Mark.

The crime here is the same as Sadaams' - disobedience to America.

I guess the "sting" was to cause as little embarrassment to ally Thailand as possible - extraordinary rendition is still a favourite tactic, I believe.

I can't see that the guy did anything more wrong than most governments do regularly.

How many things do you get to do that a government does? Do you collect taxes? Execute people? Cop cars turn on a red light speed and chase criminals. Do you do that?

Extraordinary rendition? An ordinary tactic? How many people a day? Is it still happening? It may be but one can hardly call it ordinary. If it was so ordinary why didn't they get Bout that way? Who would have known?

[ableguy]

The agents said after two hours they had heard enough. They gave the signal and Thai police and DEA agents swept into the room. As Bout put his hands up, according to Milione, he muttered: "The game is over."

Quote of the Day as, indeed, his game is over.

The game has only just begun. How many people is Bout willing to rat out to save his own skin?

He can rat all he wnats but he is going away until he dies.

[TAWP]

I don't see much difference between Victor Bout and Dennis Thatcher, or his charming son Mark.

The crime here is the same as Sadaams' - disobedience to America.

I guess the "sting" was to cause as little embarrassment to ally Thailand as possible - extraordinary rendition is still a favourite tactic, I believe.

I can't see that the guy did anything more wrong than most governments do regularly.

How many things do you get to do that a government does? Do you collect taxes? Execute people? Cop cars turn on a red light speed and chase criminals. Do you do that?

Extraordinary rendition? An ordinary tactic? How many people a day? Is it still happening? It may be but one can hardly call it ordinary. If it was so ordinary why didn't they get Bout that way? Who would have known?

What do you mean exactly? It is companies, American, British, etc, that sell arms, not the countries governments. Private companies. Difference is ofcourse that they are 'inside' the club.

[kuffki]

One video is of Bout talking in Prison. No surprise,

The next is a Russian report (they wanted him free).

He worked for and against the Taliban. And for and against the Northern Alliance. No surprise about the hijack.

The Farah interview is I think in Russian. I don't speak Russian. Sorry. I did find an article from Farah in August of this year. Quoting, "Well, it is a day I had long predicted would never occur, but I have never been happier to be wrong. A Thai appeals court today ruled the Russian weapons merchant Viktor Bout could be extradited to stand trial in the United States.

Bout not only supplied the Taliban and the FARC in Colombia, both designated terrorist organizations. He also helped arm some of the most murderous regimes and groups in Africa (Charles Taylor, Mubut Sese Seko the RUF, UNITA etc.) and the genocidal regime in Sudan.

Bout's extradition request is based on an elaborate and successful operation by the DEA's Special Operations Division, where informants posed as representatives of the FARC seeking to buy weapons to fight in Colombia, and specifically to kill Americans. Bout took the bait and arrived in Bangkok March 2008 with a laptop full of pictures of the toys he could deliver to them, including unmanned drones, RPGs and the promise of surface-to-air missiles.

When he finished his presentation and sales pitch he was arrested by Thai police, having said more than sufficient to build a case. He then spent the next 2.5 years fighting extradition to the United States, where similar cases, using similar tactics, have led to quick convictions. In the end, although more firmly attached back to the Russian intelligence structure, his willingness to deal with anyone cost him his freedom.

End of Farah quote.

I also have a very slow internet connection because I live in the jungle. I really don't have the ability to watch utube very well. If you want to post any others and have me comment find me a transcript.

Very sorry that i was not able to accomodate you.

So out of 12 or more youtube clips you only watched 3 and already have an opinion.

Of course that would not be biased at all, because you watched the movie and read Washington Post and you come from a "free" country so everything posted is true, just like people would never lie under oath and everyone speaks truth for the greater good of the society

I do not know if you even realize how ridiculous you sound making a post when you did not even watch 1/3 of the evidence posted.

But seeing as you feel you have seen enough to comment, again even though you did not even see 1/3 of the evidence, i really do not see a point continuing to debate anything with you.

PS,for your comments on not understudying Russian, yet you are the one telling what Russian press has said and what they meant. Funny that!

Edited November 21, 2010 by kuffki

[mark45y]

I don't see much difference between Victor Bout and Dennis Thatcher, or his charming son Mark.

The crime here is the same as Sadaams' - disobedience to America.

I guess the "sting" was to cause as little embarrassment to ally Thailand as possible - extraordinary rendition is still a favourite tactic, I believe.

I can't see that the guy did anything more wrong than most governments do regularly.

How many things do you get to do that a government does? Do you collect taxes? Execute people? Cop cars turn on a red light speed and chase criminals. Do you do that?

Extraordinary rendition? An ordinary tactic? How many people a day? Is it still happening? It may be but one can hardly call it ordinary. If it was so ordinary why didn't they get Bout that way? Who would have known?

What do you mean exactly? It is companies, American, British, etc, that sell arms, not the countries governments. Private companies. Difference is ofcourse that they are 'inside' the club.

The private companies can not sell weapons of war without government approval. After government approval the weapons are purchased by other governments. The business in the West is highly regulated. In some cases not only executive branch approval but congress as well. There are treaties and international agreements governing most international arms sales. That's why countries get upset when a rouge dealer comes in and ignores sanctions and embargoes that were put in place by individual countries or the UN.

Mr Gang banger does not go the the Bulgarian manufacturer of AK-47's and order a hundred assault rifles.

Also in a lot of countries the arms makers are owned outright and controlled by the state. For example the Russian government was upset at the Chinese government for making cheap AK-47 copies and selling them. While on the other hand the Government of Venezuela bought AK-47's legally and also bought the right to produce them locally.

[mark45y]

One video is of Bout talking in Prison. No surprise,

The next is a Russian report (they wanted him free).

He worked for and against the Taliban. And for and against the Northern Alliance. No surprise about the hijack.

The Farah interview is I think in Russian. I don't speak Russian. Sorry. I did find an article from Farah in August of this year. Quoting, "Well, it is a day I had long predicted would never occur, but I have never been happier to be wrong. A Thai appeals court today ruled the Russian weapons merchant Viktor Bout could be extradited to stand trial in the United States.

Bout not only supplied the Taliban and the FARC in Colombia, both designated terrorist organizations. He also helped arm some of the most murderous regimes and groups in Africa (Charles Taylor, Mubut Sese Seko the RUF, UNITA etc.) and the genocidal regime in Sudan.

Bout's extradition request is based on an elaborate and successful operation by the DEA's Special Operations Division, where informants posed as representatives of the FARC seeking to buy weapons to fight in Colombia, and specifically to kill Americans. Bout took the bait and arrived in Bangkok March 2008 with a laptop full of pictures of the toys he could deliver to them, including unmanned drones, RPGs and the promise of surface-to-air missiles.

When he finished his presentation and sales pitch he was arrested by Thai police, having said more than sufficient to build a case. He then spent the next 2.5 years fighting extradition to the United States, where similar cases, using similar tactics, have led to quick convictions. In the end, although more firmly attached back to the Russian intelligence structure, his willingness to deal with anyone cost him his freedom.

End of Farah quote.

I also have a very slow internet connection because I live in the jungle. I really don't have the ability to watch utube very well. If you want to post any others and have me comment find me a transcript.

Very sorry that i was not able to accomodate you.

So out of 12 or more youtube clips you only watched 3 and already have an opinion.

Of course that would not be biased at all, because you watched the movie and read Washington Post and you come from a "free" country so everything posted is true, just like people would never lie under oath and everyone speaks truth for the greater good of the society

I do not know if you even realize how ridiculous you sound making a post when you did not even watch 1/3 of the evidence posted.

But seeing as you feel you have seen enough to comment, again even though you did not even see 1/3 of the evidence, i really do not see a point continuing to debate anything with you.

PS,for your comments on not understudying Russian, yet you are the one telling what Russian press has said and what they meant. Funny that!

Sorry, I like watching videos but my INTERNET connection is too slow. The Russian press? Pravda has an English language edition that is posted on their website so you can read the Russian news in English. You keep saying I did but honestly I have never watched a movie about Victor Bout. I have been reading about him for 10 years. Do you really think that news sources in Russia and the old USSR countries has the same standards of freedom as the Washington Post or London times? You keep referring to where I come from. Where do you come from? Everyone knows my bias. What is yours?

[hawksway]

Bout will say nothing except continuing to profess his innocence. Whatever the sentence He receives - if found guilty - there will be leverage at some time to swap Him. It's just necessary for Victor Bout to be forgotten in the Public Eye and in 5 years will be back in Moscow.

[mark45y]

Bout will say nothing except continuing to profess his innocence. Whatever the sentence He receives - if found guilty - there will be leverage at some time to swap Him. It's just necessary for Victor Bout to be forgotten in the Public Eye and in 5 years will be back in Moscow.

That would be true except he maintains on his own website he was never a KGB employee. Why would the Russians want him back if he never worked for them?

He also claims he does not have any money. You don't think he could be lying do you?

[fridgemagnet]

In some ways the Russian press has greater freedom than that of the west. At least the Russian press talked about Americas' desperate currency war well before our press did - our press still does not acknowledge the war against the Euro. Should the Euro become the reserve currency America would have to buy oil with real money, not just print paper.

Even Aljazeera has had it's teeth drawn, never mind the American so-called news channels.

I suppose congress approved arming the Contras....

Israel is a terrorist state, but America is unstinting in the aid it gives them.

Perhaps reading Noam Chomsky might help you see how much you are being treated like cattle - tranquilised, & fed crap.

Oh - I used the term "extraordinary rendition" because you might not have understood other than the correct term. However, in Newspeak, the prefix "extraordinary" is used to create the impression that this is something that happens infrequently. Reverse the prefix to "ordinary" and the truth of the matter is approached. And yes, governments keep this sort of stuff very secret. The fact that it has a government given name at all should ring alarm bells.

Edited November 22, 2010 by fridgemagnet

[mark45y]

In some ways the Russian press has greater freedom than that of the west. At least the Russian press talked about Americas' desperate currency war well before our press did - our press still does not acknowledge the war against the Euro. Should the Euro become the reserve currency America would have to buy oil with real money, not just print paper.

Even Aljazeera has had it's teeth drawn, never mind the American so-called news channels.

I suppose congress approved arming the Contras....

Israel is a terrorist state, but America is unstinting in the aid it gives them.

Perhaps reading Noam Chomsky might help you see how much you are being treated like cattle - tranquilised, & fed crap.

Oh - I used the term "extraordinary rendition" because you might not have understood other than the correct term. However, in Newspeak, the prefix "extraordinary" is used to create the impression that this is something that happens infrequently. Reverse the prefix to "ordinary" and the truth of the matter is approached. And yes, governments keep this sort of stuff very secret. The fact that it has a government given name at all should ring alarm bells.

I know governments have a license to kill (MI6 and CIA). I read all the 007 books as a child. I used to watch Aljazeera everyday. It was interesting to compare BBC with Aljazeera. I don't get any American news channels and have not for 6 years, only BBC and Aljazeera and Bloomberg. I do think the American press is biased MSNBC and FOX. They fight with each other daily. It is in that adversarial relationship that truth comes out. I also think Noam Chomsky has an agenda. However few news people in the US are assassinated. I think this does happen on a regular basis in Russia.

My question to you is this. If rendition is so common and easily accomplished, why didn't they just render Bout? Would not it have saved a lot of money, time and diplomatic hassle?

[Tod Daniels]

FWIW: Alla Bout is going to give a 'press conference' today at 2:00PM. It'll be at the Foreign Correspondents Club of Thailands main place on the top floor of the Maneeya Center Building near Chitlom Station;

Here's the FCCT blurb about it;

Alla Bout Speaks Out on Viktor Bout's Sudden ExtraditionPress Conference; 2:00 pm Monday, November 22

(This is not an FCCT-sponsored event. It is a paid function and responsibility for program content is solely that of the event organizer)

Alla Bout, the wife of Russian alleged arms dealer Viktor Bout, will hold a press conference to discuss his sudden extradition to the United States to face terrorism charges lasts week by Thai cabinet order, information she has been given on the matter by Thai and Russian authorities, her position regarding the U.S. charges and the extradition, and upcoming plans as the legal process against her husband moves now to New York.

And I have NO affiliation with FCCT!! I just thought it might be something people might wanna go listen to; seeing as the threads about "ol' Vik" are runnin' hot 'n heavy on T/V right about now.

I think it'll be quite interesting to hear her 'take' on things.

Oh, and BTW, it's free too!

Edited November 22, 2010 by tod-daniels

[Buchholz]

FWIW: Alla Bout is going to give a 'press conference' today at 2:00PM. It'll be at the Foreign Correspondent’s Club of Thailand’s main place on the top floor of the Maneeya Center Building near Chitlom Station;

Here's the FCCT blurb about it;

Alla Bout Speaks Out on Viktor Bout's Sudden ExtraditionPress Conference; 2:00 pm Monday, November 22

(This is not an FCCT-sponsored event. It is a paid function and responsibility for program content is solely that of the event organizer)

Alla Bout, the wife of Russian alleged arms dealer Viktor Bout, will hold a press conference to discuss his sudden extradition to the United States to face terrorism charges lasts week by Thai cabinet order, information she has been given on the matter by Thai and Russian authorities, her position regarding the U.S. charges and the extradition, and upcoming plans as the legal process against her husband moves now to New York.

And I have NO affiliation with FCCT!! I just thought it might be something people might wanna go listen to; seeing as the threads about "ol' Vik" are runnin' hot 'n heavy on T/V right about now.

I think it'll be quite interesting to hear her 'take' on things.

Maybe she'll expound more on her plans to sue Thailand.

[kuffki]

One video is of Bout talking in Prison. No surprise,

The next is a Russian report (they wanted him free).

He worked for and against the Taliban. And for and against the Northern Alliance. No surprise about the hijack.

The Farah interview is I think in Russian. I don't speak Russian. Sorry. I did find an article from Farah in August of this year. Quoting, "Well, it is a day I had long predicted would never occur, but I have never been happier to be wrong. A Thai appeals court today ruled the Russian weapons merchant Viktor Bout could be extradited to stand trial in the United States.

Bout not only supplied the Taliban and the FARC in Colombia, both designated terrorist organizations. He also helped arm some of the most murderous regimes and groups in Africa (Charles Taylor, Mubut Sese Seko the RUF, UNITA etc.) and the genocidal regime in Sudan.

Bout's extradition request is based on an elaborate and successful operation by the DEA's Special Operations Division, where informants posed as representatives of the FARC seeking to buy weapons to fight in Colombia, and specifically to kill Americans. Bout took the bait and arrived in Bangkok March 2008 with a laptop full of pictures of the toys he could deliver to them, including unmanned drones, RPGs and the promise of surface-to-air missiles.

When he finished his presentation and sales pitch he was arrested by Thai police, having said more than sufficient to build a case. He then spent the next 2.5 years fighting extradition to the United States, where similar cases, using similar tactics, have led to quick convictions. In the end, although more firmly attached back to the Russian intelligence structure, his willingness to deal with anyone cost him his freedom.

End of Farah quote.

I also have a very slow internet connection because I live in the jungle. I really don't have the ability to watch utube very well. If you want to post any others and have me comment find me a transcript.

Very sorry that i was not able to accomodate you.

So out of 12 or more youtube clips you only watched 3 and already have an opinion.

Of course that would not be biased at all, because you watched the movie and read Washington Post and you come from a "free" country so everything posted is true, just like people would never lie under oath and everyone speaks truth for the greater good of the society

I do not know if you even realize how ridiculous you sound making a post when you did not even watch 1/3 of the evidence posted.

But seeing as you feel you have seen enough to comment, again even though you did not even see 1/3 of the evidence, i really do not see a point continuing to debate anything with you.

PS,for your comments on not understudying Russian, yet you are the one telling what Russian press has said and what they meant. Funny that!

Sorry, I like watching videos but my INTERNET connection is too slow. The Russian press? Pravda has an English language edition that is posted on their website so you can read the Russian news in English. You keep saying I did but honestly I have never watched a movie about Victor Bout. I have been reading about him for 10 years. Do you really think that news sources in Russia and the old USSR countries has the same standards of freedom as the Washington Post or London times? You keep referring to where I come from. Where do you come from? Everyone knows my bias. What is yours?

Russians unlike Thai and many other countries are very careful in what words they use and while saying everything, they said nothing.

Pravda stated he was involved in sales(which does not clarify in what capacity) followed by delivered the arms. He did own a cargo freight company, so delivering the cargo is part of the involvement but does not always means he was part of the actual operation and had the knowledge of the cargo. Just to clarify i am not saying that this is the case, i am only stating what the meaning of the statement printed can translate to.

I am sorry but why do you think that Russian press is any less credible then USA press?

But since Russian press is not credible in your opinion, what about BBC, is it also not good enough?

I do not have bias at all. You keep pointing fingers yet can not provide any evidence, only speculations. I have provided you with links and facts which breaks down every single one of those speculations and allegations. Things like Attorney General(i think it was or State Department) they have all the evidence, but can can not get right the number of planes he owned. Things like man who testified under oath after sometime when confronted confirms he was pretty much lying.

One so called reliable witness who does not know the different between ak-47 and Kalashnikov and the list goes on.

No one has any hard evidence yet here you are trying to prove your point of his guilt based on speculations.

Perhaps you should see both sides of the story prior to jumping to conclusions again based only on speculations, because just as there are enough sources alleging his guilt, there are just as many clearing him of all the guilt and going further by showing how it all started, who started it and for what purpose.

PS.I am sorry but you got your fact wrong again. I do not keep referring to where you come from, it was you who started this line of posting, just see your own post 141 and i quote

"There is an adversarial relationship between the press and the American government. I don't think you have an understanding of that. Perhaps the part of the world you come from has a government controlled press. I don't know. It is not that way in the US. "

[mark45y]

Kuffki,

You are very biased. I think it is fair to state that you think Russia's press is as credible as the US.

List of journalists killed under your current President.

2008

1.31 August - Magomed Yevloyev, Ingush oppositionist, founder of Ingushetiya.ru, Moscow-based lawyer, shot on return to country while in custody of Ingush police officers.[113][114][115]. Killer convicted of negligent homicide, sentence subsequently mitigated. Homicide. Conviction [J].

2.2 September - Abdulla Alishayev, (aka Telman Alishayev), TV presenter on Muslim channel, shot dead in car, Makhachkala [116]. Homicide [J].

2009

1.4 January - Shafig Amrakhov, Murmansk, shot in stairwell entrance in late December 2008. Homicide [nJ].

2.4 January - Vladislav Zakharchuk, manager with Arsenyevskie vesti newspaper, Vladivostok. Arson suggested cause of death. Incident not Confirmed [?J].

3.19 January - Anastasia Baburova, Novaya gazeta, Moscow.On 19 January Stanislav Markelov, lawyer for Novaya gazeta, anti-fascist activist and opponent of human rights abuses in Chechnya, was shot and killed in the centre of Moscow.[118] With him died Anastasia Baburova a trainee reporter with Novaya Gazeta, and a fellow anti-fascist activist.[119][120] In early November 2009 a man and a woman were arrested for the killing.[121]. Homicide [J].

4.30 March - Sergei Protazanov, layout artist with Grazhdanskoye soglasie newspaper, Khimki nr. Moscow. Link to work questioned. Incident not Confirmed [nJ].

5.29 June - Vyacheslav Yaroshenko, chief editor of Corruption and Criminality newspaper, Volgograd. Cause of death remains unclear. Incident not Confirmed [?J].

6.15 July - Natalia Estemirova[122], a human rights activist with Memorial, who worked with journalists from Novaya gazeta, especially Anna Politkovskaya, and occasionally published in the newspaper herself, having been a TV reporter pre-1999. After years of investigating murders and kidnapping in Chechnya Estemirova was herself abducted that morning in Grozny and found, shot dead, by the roadside several hours later in neighbouring Ingushetia.[123]. Homicide [J].

7.11 August - Malik Akhmedilov, [124] deputy chief editor of the Avar language newspaper Khakikat (Truth), was found shot dead near the Dagestan capital Makhachkala. Homicide [?J].

8.25 October - Maksharip Aushev was shot dead in Nalchik, capital of Kabardino-Balkaria.[125] When Magomed Yevloyev gave up running Ingushetia.ru, and his replacement (Rosa Malsagova) had to flee abroad to escape threats and harassment, Aushev ran the successor website Ingushetia.org. Link to past or present work unclear. Homicide [?J].

9.16 November - Olga Kotovskaya, Kaskad radio & TV company, Kaliningrad. Fall from height? Incident not Confirmed. Investigation under "Incitement to suicide" (Article 110) [?J].

2010

1.20 January - Konstantin Popov died from a beating received a fortnight earlier by Russian police, in a detoxification centre for drunk and disorderly.[127]. 26-year-old police sergeant charged with his killing. Homicide [nJ].

2.23 February - Journalist Ivan Stepanov was murdered at his dacha [128]. Homicide [nJ].

3.20 March - Maxim Zuyev was found murdered in a Kaliningrad flat he was renting. Seven years earlier he was interrogated by the city's police for publishing an anonymous letter alleging corruption among high-ranking police officers in the enclave.[129][130][131][132]. "Crime solved", says Investigative Committee [?J].

4.05 May - Shamil Aliyev, founder of radio stations, director of local TV, showbiz impresario, Makhachkala, Dagestan[133]. Homicide [?J]

5.13 May - Said Magomedov, director of local television station, Sergokalinsky district, Dagestan. Shot dead when travelling with repairmen to restore sabotaged TV transmitter. Terrorist act [J].

6.25 June - Dmitry Okkert, Moscow. A presenter with the Expert TV channel, Okkert was found stabbed to death in his own apartment. The director of the Expert media holding, Valery Fadeyev, does not believe that the brutal killing of his colleague was linked to his journalistic activities. Homicide [?J].

7.25 July - Bella Ksalova, Cherkessk. A correspondent for the Caucasian Knot website and news agency, Ksalova died after being hit by a car on the street where she lived. Not confirmed [?J]

8.1 August - Malika Betiyeva, Grozny-Shatoi highway. The deputy chief editor of Molodyozhnaya smena, and Chechnya correspondent of the "Dosh" (Word) magazine, died with four of her immediate family in a car crash. Not confirmed [?J]

9.11 August - Magomed Sultanmagomedov, Makhachkala. The director of the "Makhachkala TV" station was assassinated in the Dagestan capital when his vehicle came under gunfire [?J]

To state that anything said in the Russian press about Victor Bout is highly suspect.

[kuffki]

List of journalists killed under your current President.

sEE here you go again SPECULATING AND ASSUMING that i am Russian yet i only said i can speak Russian fluently.

I rest my case in regards to your case, because all you do is speculate and then develop theory's on your speculations.

There is really no need to respond or continue this debate

[mark45y]

List of journalists killed under your current President.

sEE here you go again SPECULATING AND ASSUMING that i am Russian yet i only said i can speak Russian fluently.

I rest my case in regards to your case, because all you do is speculate and then develop theory's on your speculations.

There is really no need to respond or continue this debate

I understand where you are coming from. I don't think you are Russian. I also understand it is very difficult to defend Russian freedoms when journalists are bumped off with terrifying frequency.

It would be understandable for me if you were a Russian. What I find puzzling is how you can use any media in Russia as a source of facts.

What kind of education or world view and from where, is so naive?

No one except his associates, business partners and wife debate the fact that Victor Bout is an immoral scoundrel and a very bad man.

The debate centers around the way he was apprehended and its legality.

[kuffki]

List of journalists killed under your current President.

sEE here you go again SPECULATING AND ASSUMING that i am Russian yet i only said i can speak Russian fluently.

I rest my case in regards to your case, because all you do is speculate and then develop theory's on your speculations.

There is really no need to respond or continue this debate

I understand where you are coming from. I don't think you are Russian. I also understand it is very difficult to defend Russian freedoms when journalists are bumped off with terrifying frequency.

It would be understandable for me if you were a Russian. What I find puzzling is how you can use any media in Russia as a source of facts.

What kind of education or world view and from where, is so naive?

No one except his associates, business partners and wife debate the fact that Victor Bout is an immoral scoundrel and a very bad man.

The debate centers around the way he was apprehended and its legality.

Because all the clips i provided from Russian media are interviews with people, not 1 man's opinion.

while the links you provided is just that, 1 man opinion on the matter.

You really need to see all the clips prior to making any judgements and again speculate what is in them.

I am sure US state department is a much more credible source then anyone else, this is why they do not even know how many planes he owned, 40-50-60(not my words, but from the interview)

Since they can not even get this right, i really doubt much else is credible.

The legality, again see the clip, he was released from prison because Thailand could not charge him with anything and did not have any evidence, he was then held on request from USA, again watch the clip and listen to his lawyer, again not my words but facts.

[mark45y]

List of journalists killed under your current President.

sEE here you go again SPECULATING AND ASSUMING that i am Russian yet i only said i can speak Russian fluently.

I rest my case in regards to your case, because all you do is speculate and then develop theory's on your speculations.

There is really no need to respond or continue this debate

I understand where you are coming from. I don't think you are Russian. I also understand it is very difficult to defend Russian freedoms when journalists are bumped off with terrifying frequency.

It would be understandable for me if you were a Russian. What I find puzzling is how you can use any media in Russia as a source of facts.

What kind of education or world view and from where, is so naive?

No one except his associates, business partners and wife debate the fact that Victor Bout is an immoral scoundrel and a very bad man.

The debate centers around the way he was apprehended and its legality.

Because all the clips i provided from Russian media are interviews with people, not 1 man's opinion.

while the links you provided is just that, 1 man opinion on the matter.

You really need to see all the clips prior to making any judgements and again speculate what is in them.

I am sure US state department is a much more credible source then anyone else, this is why they do not even know how many planes he owned, 40-50-60(not my words, but from the interview)

Since they can not even get this right, i really doubt much else is credible.

The legality, again see the clip, he was released from prison because Thailand could not charge him with anything and did not have any evidence, he was then held on request from USA, again watch the clip and listen to his lawyer, again not my words but facts.

I understand what you are saying. There is reason to question the legality of what was done.

But why in the world, when everyone in the West thinks he is a terrible person responsible for many thousands of deaths and hardship and wars would you care about this man?

Do you believe what you read in the Russian media ? Even they said he was involved in gun running.

How could have any sympathy for this man? He is one of the major villeins of the last 20 years.

I think some of the methods used by the CIA and the US government are terrible. How did I find out about these things? I read the US press. It is a free press.

You don't strike me as an ignorant person. How does an intelligent man come to feel sorry for a criminal like Bout?

[ryladie99]

Why the do the sting op in Thailand? Because that is where Bout finally agreed to meet. Stupid Bout...he did not research that the DEA and CIA were always based in Thailand.

That many AKs? FARC should know not to make themselves a target by using a different weapon system vs the ones carried by the US-supported Colombian army - M16s. Bout should have noted this discrepancy before placing the order or flying to meet the customer.

Scopes to kill pilots... Really? The ones flying at 30K feet?

The order was too good to be true.

Lesson: Never agree to meet. Use the www. Still there always watching.

According to U.S. intelligence (such as CIA), the FARC-EP has purchased thousands of AK-47 rifles from Russia, through connections with the Russian mafia. Colombian and regional authorities believe that the FARC has bought possibly greater quantities of such weapons from black market dealers in Peru and Central America, as well as corrupt military officials.

Based on these facts and believing that the FARC is looking for additional AK-47 suppliers, the United States opposed the 2004 announcement of Venezuelan arms purchase of 100,000 AK-103 rifles from Russia, for the purposes of upgrading the military equipment in Venezuelan army. Despite US opposition the purchase went ahead as planned. The United States has not been able to show any link between the democratic socialist government of Venezuela and the Marxist-Leninist FARC.

Prices for black-market guns vary. A new AK-47 will cost you $250 in Russia. A Chinese built weapon will cost $100. Second hand AKs in Baghdad cost just $10!

A fully transferrable M16, that is one made before the 1986 machinegun ban and thus ownable by a civilian with the correct tax stamp, sells in the neighborhood of $10,000.

US military contract price for the M16 was $420 per unit in 1988 when Fabrique Nationale won the contract from Colt.

You are so right and tonight I was watching 60 minutes from CBS and if anyone wants to see..try CBS.com

Thanks for posting and Happy Thanksgiving to all....

[kuffki]

I understand what you are saying. There is reason to question the legality of what was done.

But why in the world, when everyone in the West thinks he is a terrible person responsible for many thousands of deaths and hardship and wars would you care about this man?

Do you believe what you read in the Russian media ? Even they said he was involved in gun running.

How could have any sympathy for this man? He is one of the major villeins of the last 20 years.

I think some of the methods used by the CIA and the US government are terrible. How did I find out about these things? I read the US press. It is a free press.

You don't strike me as an ignorant person. How does an intelligent man come to feel sorry for a criminal like Bout?

But everyone in the West also thought Russia was evil and everyone in the east thought West was evil.

As i have said many times, without any evidence i have no doubt that he in involved in something, for the reasons i explained in my first post.

However with no evidence but only speculations i do not think its fair to find an escape goat and crucify him, irrespective of what he allegedly has done.

Even the smartest criminal eventually makes a mistake and gets caught red handed and if the entire West was after him, i am sure they could catch him in action, yet no one has.

His current charge is not even for arms dealing its for conspiring to kill USA citizens, which is clearly a fabrication.

I do not know if he crossed someone, nor do i know if he really is a gun runner, i really do not know anything, but only what media choses to post.

Washington Post prints an opinion that he is a gun runner, but with no evidence

Belgian Police arrest him on the same charges, but release him because of lack of evidence

Thailand does the same

BBC world runs a number of interviews which clear him of any wrong doing

So in a nutshel no one knows anything about the man, but every one is too busy speculating.

Lets see how his trial goes and what comes out of it before jumping to any conclusions

[mark45y]

I understand what you are saying. There is reason to question the legality of what was done.

But why in the world, when everyone in the West thinks he is a terrible person responsible for many thousands of deaths and hardship and wars would you care about this man?

Do you believe what you read in the Russian media ? Even they said he was involved in gun running.

How could have any sympathy for this man? He is one of the major villeins of the last 20 years.

I think some of the methods used by the CIA and the US government are terrible. How did I find out about these things? I read the US press. It is a free press.

You don't strike me as an ignorant person. How does an intelligent man come to feel sorry for a criminal like Bout?

But everyone in the West also thought Russia was evil and everyone in the east thought West was evil.

As i have said many times, without any evidence i have no doubt that he in involved in something, for the reasons i explained in my first post.

However with no evidence but only speculations i do not think its fair to find an escape goat and crucify him, irrespective of what he allegedly has done.

Even the smartest criminal eventually makes a mistake and gets caught red handed and if the entire West was after him, i am sure they could catch him in action, yet no one has.

His current charge is not even for arms dealing its for conspiring to kill USA citizens, which is clearly a fabrication.

I do not know if he crossed someone, nor do i know if he really is a gun runner, i really do not know anything, but only what media choses to post.

Washington Post prints an opinion that he is a gun runner, but with no evidence

Belgian Police arrest him on the same charges, but release him because of lack of evidence

Thailand does the same

BBC world runs a number of interviews which clear him of any wrong doing

So in a nutshel no one knows anything about the man, but every one is too busy speculating.

Lets see how his trial goes and what comes out of it before jumping to any conclusions

Do you think he will get a fair trial in the US?

[kuffki]

I understand what you are saying. There is reason to question the legality of what was done.

But why in the world, when everyone in the West thinks he is a terrible person responsible for many thousands of deaths and hardship and wars would you care about this man?

Do you believe what you read in the Russian media ? Even they said he was involved in gun running.

How could have any sympathy for this man? He is one of the major villeins of the last 20 years.

I think some of the methods used by the CIA and the US government are terrible. How did I find out about these things? I read the US press. It is a free press.

You don't strike me as an ignorant person. How does an intelligent man come to feel sorry for a criminal like Bout?

But everyone in the West also thought Russia was evil and everyone in the east thought West was evil.

As i have said many times, without any evidence i have no doubt that he in involved in something, for the reasons i explained in my first post.

However with no evidence but only speculations i do not think its fair to find an escape goat and crucify him, irrespective of what he allegedly has done.

Even the smartest criminal eventually makes a mistake and gets caught red handed and if the entire West was after him, i am sure they could catch him in action, yet no one has.

His current charge is not even for arms dealing its for conspiring to kill USA citizens, which is clearly a fabrication.

I do not know if he crossed someone, nor do i know if he really is a gun runner, i really do not know anything, but only what media choses to post.

Washington Post prints an opinion that he is a gun runner, but with no evidence

Belgian Police arrest him on the same charges, but release him because of lack of evidence

Thailand does the same

BBC world runs a number of interviews which clear him of any wrong doing

So in a nutshel no one knows anything about the man, but every one is too busy speculating.

Lets see how his trial goes and what comes out of it before jumping to any conclusions

Do you think he will get a fair trial in the US?

i think as fair as one could get anywhere.

I am sure many charges will be dismissed, but the sentencing for the remaining ones will be the max.

[TAWP]

The private companies can not sell weapons of war without government approval. After government approval the weapons are purchased by other governments. The business in the West is highly regulated. In some cases not only executive branch approval but congress as well. There are treaties and international agreements governing most international arms sales. That's why countries get upset when a rouge dealer comes in and ignores sanctions and embargoes that were put in place by individual countries or the UN.

So what you are saying is that you support corporatism?

[Pi Sek]

The private companies can not sell weapons of war without government approval. After government approval the weapons are purchased by other governments. The business in the West is highly regulated. In some cases not only executive branch approval but congress as well. There are treaties and international agreements governing most international arms sales. That's why countries get upset when a rouge dealer comes in and ignores sanctions and embargoes that were put in place by individual countries or the UN.

So what you are saying is that you support corporatism?

I think he's saying he supports regulatory bodies in the arms industry. I think I do, too. It would mean that every war-grade weapon would be accounted for. You'd have to get everyone to fall in line though... that means private traders like Bout, N Korea, Thai soldiers who steal RPGs from their armouries and so on. Not easy I'd imagine. Or should I say impossible?

[mark45y]

The private companies can not sell weapons of war without government approval. After government approval the weapons are purchased by other governments. The business in the West is highly regulated. In some cases not only executive branch approval but congress as well. There are treaties and international agreements governing most international arms sales. That's why countries get upset when a rouge dealer comes in and ignores sanctions and embargoes that were put in place by individual countries or the UN.

So what you are saying is that you support corporatism?

It is very difficult to follow Bout. He had hundreds of different companies and worked for many people.

One of the things you can check are his aircraft registrations and what countries registered them.

This trail alone is damning. This trail tipped off investigators about his business 15 years ago.

The laws are on the books. There is already government regulation of military weapons and equipment. There is unfortunately no country other than the US that has the means to go after international arms dealers. And the US I would imagine is only interested in sellers than negatively effect the US and or it citizens.

I think the whole world pretty much ignored much of what was happening in Africa.

It is kind of a you are damned if you do and damned if you don't situation. If the US intervenes we are trying to be the policeman of the world and if we don't why is the most powerful nation on earth letting genocide go on.

Whatever side the US comes down on it will offend someone. Look at the posts on this thread for confirmation. The British special forces tried to arrest Bout in Greece. I wish they would have succeeded. It would have saved the US a lot of headaches. I wonder if the same kind of discussion would be going on? I doubt if the same number of Americans would be condemning the Brits as is the reverse now.

Don't forget 007. The legal killing star of British Intelligence.

I don't have the answer. I guess knock off as many as you can with what resources your country is willing to commit.

America has been controlled by corporations since about 5 years after WWII. The corporations took control by changing the primary voting rules, ensuring only a two party system. It is quite a complicated process but the end result is there has not been an American President since WW II who was trustworthy.

Maybe one out of a million Americans knows anything about it. Whether I support it or not is a moot point.

Like I said it has been controlling America since the 1950's and without changes in the primary Presidential candidate selection process it will continue.

Seems the Chinese will be the next superpower. Maybe a corrupt party dictatorship is what the world wants.

I would imagine they could do a better job at controlling illegal arms sales if they were a superpower. The do put a lot of people in jail and that head shot and then selling the body parts would work well for arms dealers like Bout. Think of all the money they save by not having phony elections like the West. You could put that into catching international crooks.

[COXYATCITY]

The private companies can not sell weapons of war without government approval. After government approval the weapons are purchased by other governments. The business in the West is highly regulated. In some cases not only executive branch approval but congress as well. There are treaties and international agreements governing most international arms sales. That's why countries get upset when a rouge dealer comes in and ignores sanctions and embargoes that were put in place by individual countries or the UN.

So what you are saying is that you support corporatism?

It is very difficult to follow Bout. He had hundreds of different companies and worked for many people.

One of the things you can check are his aircraft registrations and what countries registered them.

This trail alone is damning. This trail tipped off investigators about his business 15 years ago.

The laws are on the books. There is already government regulation of military weapons and equipment. There is unfortunately no country other than the US that has the means to go after international arms dealers. And the US I would imagine is only interested in sellers than negatively effect the US and or it citizens.

I think the whole world pretty much ignored much of what was happening in Africa.

It is kind of a you are damned if you do and damned if you don't situation. If the US intervenes we are trying to be the policeman of the world and if we don't why is the most powerful nation on earth letting genocide go on.

Whatever side the US comes down on it will offend someone. Look at the posts on this thread for confirmation. The British special forces tried to arrest Bout in Greece. I wish they would have succeeded. It would have saved the US a lot of headaches. I wonder if the same kind of discussion would be going on? I doubt if the same number of Americans would be condemning the Brits as is the reverse now.

Don't forget 007. The legal killing star of British Intelligence.

I don't have the answer. I guess knock off as many as you can with what resources your country is willing to commit.

America has been controlled by corporations since about 5 years after WWII. The corporations took control by changing the primary voting rules, ensuring only a two party system. It is quite a complicated process but the end result is there has not been an American President since WW II who was trustworthy.

Maybe one out of a million Americans knows anything about it. Whether I support it or not is a moot point.

Like I said it has been controlling America since the 1950's and without changes in the primary Presidential candidate selection process it will continue.

Seems the Chinese will be the next superpower. Maybe a corrupt party dictatorship is what the world wants.

I would imagine they could do a better job at controlling illegal arms sales if they were a superpower. The do put a lot of people in jail and that head shot and then selling the body parts would work well for arms dealers like Bout. Think of all the money they save by not having phony elections like the West. You could put that into catching international crooks.

policeman of the world should have sent him to a country where he is accused of committing crimes,

[mark45y]

The private companies can not sell weapons of war without government approval. After government approval the weapons are purchased by other governments. The business in the West is highly regulated. In some cases not only executive branch approval but congress as well. There are treaties and international agreements governing most international arms sales. That's why countries get upset when a rouge dealer comes in and ignores sanctions and embargoes that were put in place by individual countries or the UN.

So what you are saying is that you support corporatism?

It is very difficult to follow Bout. He had hundreds of different companies and worked for many people.

One of the things you can check are his aircraft registrations and what countries registered them.

This trail alone is damning. This trail tipped off investigators about his business 15 years ago.

The laws are on the books. There is already government regulation of military weapons and equipment. There is unfortunately no country other than the US that has the means to go after international arms dealers. And the US I would imagine is only interested in sellers than negatively effect the US and or it citizens.

I think the whole world pretty much ignored much of what was happening in Africa.

It is kind of a you are damned if you do and damned if you don't situation. If the US intervenes we are trying to be the policeman of the world and if we don't why is the most powerful nation on earth letting genocide go on.

Whatever side the US comes down on it will offend someone. Look at the posts on this thread for confirmation. The British special forces tried to arrest Bout in Greece. I wish they would have succeeded. It would have saved the US a lot of headaches. I wonder if the same kind of discussion would be going on? I doubt if the same number of Americans would be condemning the Brits as is the reverse now.

Don't forget 007. The legal killing star of British Intelligence.

I don't have the answer. I guess knock off as many as you can with what resources your country is willing to commit.

America has been controlled by corporations since about 5 years after WWII. The corporations took control by changing the primary voting rules, ensuring only a two party system. It is quite a complicated process but the end result is there has not been an American President since WW II who was trustworthy.

Maybe one out of a million Americans knows anything about it. Whether I support it or not is a moot point.

Like I said it has been controlling America since the 1950's and without changes in the primary Presidential candidate selection process it will continue.

Seems the Chinese will be the next superpower. Maybe a corrupt party dictatorship is what the world wants.

I would imagine they could do a better job at controlling illegal arms sales if they were a superpower. The do put a lot of people in jail and that head shot and then selling the body parts would work well for arms dealers like Bout. Think of all the money they save by not having phony elections like the West. You could put that into catching international crooks.

policeman of the world should have sent him to a country where he is accused of committing crimes,

He is accused of committing crimes against the US. Is this news to you?

[fridgemagnet]

The private companies can not sell weapons of war without government approval. After government approval the weapons are purchased by other governments. The business in the West is highly regulated. In some cases not only executive branch approval but congress as well. There are treaties and international agreements governing most international arms sales. That's why countries get upset when a rouge dealer comes in and ignores sanctions and embargoes that were put in place by individual countries or the UN.

So what you are saying is that you support corporatism?

I think he's saying he supports regulatory bodies in the arms industry. I think I do, too. It would mean that every war-grade weapon would be accounted for. You'd have to get everyone to fall in line though... that means private traders like Bout, N Korea, Thai soldiers who steal RPGs from their armouries and so on. Not easy I'd imagine. Or should I say impossible?

You've as much chance of regulating the banks.

To get back to topic:

I've read the book, AND seen the film -

so he's obviously guilty.

As if our media would in any way mislead us.