Loss Of Face ... Can Someone Tell Me What It Is Really All About ?

[lannarebirth]

Loss of face can also occur if someone tries to cheat you and you don't let them get away with it. In the end it's a good trade off, for you, though it may seem not worth the effort at the time.

[GooEng]

i have discussed this with thai friends who have agreed that at certain points in certain circunstances where loss of face is imminent, lying is generally what happens to save the day. some of them have been more critical of the practice than others, but all agree it goes on, on a huge scale here in thailand.

to preserve face, lies are told. end of story.

small ones, big ones and sometimes grandious, blatant, evil lies that beggar belief.

the idea that this is an acceptable social strategy, is to a western mind quite simply idiotic. it is a destructive attitude that promotes and excuses dishonesty and allows the sins of the powerful to go unpunished.

for the members of this forum who ARE western and DO think the above, i think it's quite acceptable for them to say it, i don't think there is necessarily any bitterness or vindictiveness involved.

[inzman]

Dealing with thais, you have to treat them as children when it comes to embarassing them. Just remember that and you will be ok. When they get embarassed they act irationally, so try not to embarass them

[dansat]

don't tell us you only have smart people in your motherland.

Good point, now you'll be labelled as an " apologist ", " man with rose tinted specs ", " wait till you've been here longer ", " you'll see what they're like " etc etc.

On ThaiVisa, you're either with the Thai Bashing majority, or you're against them, contentment with your lot will not be tolerated, to be in Thailand must be a time of suffering, it's not possible to actually enjoy living in the place you travelled thousands of miles to live in.

If you're not moaning on this forum and are content, people think there's something wrong with you.

Says a lot about many posters here. They screwed up and have many many regrets, they're unhappy and find it hard to integrate, blown all their money and can't afford to leave cos they blew the lot on a misguided dream, the dream that they could come to Thailand and live like a Lord for the rest of their lives and every day would be a holiday.

The dream fades into reality, and reality isn't pleasant for the dreamer, the dream becomes a nightmare. Bitterness, despair and hopelessness cast a doom cloud over the unfortunate expat, not knowing where to turn, he joins ThaiVisa to find like minded people to complain with, kindred spirits if I may be so bold.

Along comes guys that are content and financially secure to ruin their last place of refuge, how dare these people be content when i'm totally kin' miserable, they must be new here, you wait, they'll find out what Thailand is really like.

They hope you end up just like them, otherwise they failed and you didn't, if everyone fails, they don't feel so bad.

Wow Gm1955. I know some people do a bit of Thai Bashing here.... but i think you have had to much time to think and seem to have gone the other way. You seem very bitter towards TV posters. Is TV member bashing a term yet ?

Lighten up a bit :jap:

[CaptHaddock]

 The main difference between the face concept in Asia, including Thailand, and status in the West is that the Asians are much more frank about acknowledging its importance.  Here in the US people go to some lengths to avoid admitting the extent to which status drives their behavior.  So that when people buy expensive and overpriced products that are marketed as status symbols, they will mostly attribute their choice to simple personal preference, higher functionality or value rather than status seeking.  Here are some examples of products whose appeal looks to me to be 100% status seeking, but for which status will never be reported as the motivator:

weddings, which among the lower income folks may cost a year's salary (for a party to impress your friends).

Swiss watches for men

high-fee credit cards in colors that identify the more expensive

clothing with visible designer names

SUVs

fashions in clothing that makes new products valueless by making them "obsolete"

Apple products

Neighborhoods 

Public charitable donations - I am thinking of those fund-raisers where people are called upon to stand up and make a pledge or have their name displayed on a public list of donors organized by the size of the gift.  

waste in general - as the sociologist Thorstein Veblen pointed out, the wasteful part of conspicuous consumption is not incidental since it establishes status in a way that lower income folk cannot imitate.

So, it is my observation that Americans care deeply about status and will pay wildly in the hopes to achieving and maintaining it, but they won't admit it.  The advertisers and marketers understand status as a motivation quite well.

Another aspect of face/status in Asian and Thai culture is that since wealth and opportunity are dispensed more usually in patronage networks the economic value of face/status may be higher in Asian societies.

I would think twice before I viewed face in Asian cultures as a basis for self-congratulation.

[stiggy]

It means

You ask someone can they do something for eg: Fix a car , open an account , deliver items by a set date etc etc

Then when it cant be done ,or dosent show up ,or cant be opened.You cannot talk about it with them for risk of them getting upset or losing face.

Instead you have to say its your fault, as you didnt give correct paperwork or tell them properly what was needed. All of this whilst smiling and keeping the fact you think its total <deleted> to yourself.

Quite simple really when you get the hang of it.

[IanForbes]

neanderthals.

It takes one to knows one, but funny you are the first one I see that have no hair

:lol:

But one of my female friends has enough for both of us...

[Heng]

Here's one. Foreign tenant had apparently just finished giving a tour of 'his house/restaurant' (went all out on lighting and decor, will give him that) and was enjoying a shower of compliments from friends visiting from abroad. Armed with her 20 or so lines of half decent English, one of our rent collectors announces how many weeks (at that point) overdue his rent is and that said tenant had in fact not made a deposit which he had said was made. Not a big deal at all, a lot of people 'play house' here, but the guy who was just 'outed' to be a delinquent tenant and not a home owner (or at least someone who pays their bills on time) didn't find it too amusing. I don't recall him laughing about it either, although I was a few houses down in my minivan sipping some coffee.

Have plenty of locals and foreigners who owe us debts, and in my experience, both groups don't appreciate a loss of face.

[KeyserSoze01]

Can this really happen to someone over the age of 21 with a brain ?

You just answered your own question.

Any more silly questions?

[KeyserSoze01]

Loss of face? sure. it's the #1 reason why Thailand will never progress. that and lack of decent education. these peeps don't even know their own history...

Isn't it funny that the stupid people and culture of Thailand able to provided you all the good life, roof over your head, which can not be said of your motherland, the fact that you chose this country over your birth place, although you have a negative view of Thailand and its people, speak volume. It is like a hypocrite that hates the chickens but loves the eggs, and please don't tell us you only have smart people in your motherland.

You have entirely missed the point. It's not a matter of how intelligent someone is, it's a matter of how someone handles criticism.

The only hypocrite in your post is you, defending a backward society that you have adopted as your own, overlooking the obvious flaws.

[dansat]

Can this really happen to someone over the age of 21 with a brain ?

You just answered your own question.

Any more silly questions?

DO YOU UN-DER-STAND ENG-LISH ?

[Tonto21]

I have a story of face saving in Thailand…….Mine. It happened the year before last, I went out to cut back the hedge row leading to my front gate, it had rained heavy the night before and the vegetation was hanging down into the lane. Armed with my parang, (machete) I was happily hacking away….until it slipped from my hand, to tell a long story short, it cut both my feet…….Bad, (Bonehead or what) luckily my local builder was there, drove me to the clinic to get me all stitched up. My wife asked me what happened, me being of a Western mind set just told her the truth; the thing slid out my hand, no excuses, simple my fault! It took a day for the story going around my village to get back to me as to what had really happened that day, (enter the Thai spin doctors) well; apparently it wasn’t my fault at all! The updated version of the events that day was that the blade had come away from the handle! So I was faultless, another face saved. I have to admit I tend to view the act of face saving a little different these days.

[Tonto21]

It means

You ask someone can they do something for eg: Fix a car , open an account , deliver items by a set date etc etc

Then when it cant be done ,or dosent show up ,or cant be opened.You cannot talk about it with them for risk of them getting upset or losing face.

Instead you have to say its your fault, as you didnt give correct paperwork or tell them properly what was needed. All of this whilst smiling and keeping the fact you think its total <deleted> to yourself.

Quite simple really when you get the hang of it.

You’re so right Stiggy! I never leave home without taking a child’s metal coat hanger so when I need to smile, (at the most inappropriate time) I can bend, said c/h to the correct/appropriate smile shape….and insert in my gob! Still trying to get the hang of saving every buggers face that I simple ask a question to.

[Kwasaki]

Losing face applies to Thai people who ever you are.

are you Thai. ?

[Tokay]

Isn't it funny that the stupid people and culture of Thailand able to provided you all the good life, roof over your head, which can not be said of your motherland, the fact that you chose this country over your birth place, although you have a negative view of Thailand and its people, speak volume. It is like a hypocrite that hates the chickens but loves the eggs, and please don't tell us you only have smart people in your motherland.

Did it ever occur to you that some people may have come here because they enjoy the weather or the scenery? One does not have to move to another country because he loves the people who live there. There are many reasons to relocate and not like the locals. Employment would be one of those reasons.

It's not always as cut and dry as a chicken or an egg.

[Tokay]

Dealing with thais, you have to treat them as children when it comes to embarassing them. Just remember that and you will be ok. When they get embarassed they act irationally, so try not to embarass them

Agreed.

Because many of them have the minds of children. When you drop out of school in the 8th grade (or lower) or didn't go at all, you will have the mind of a child. Hence their LOVE for cartoons, hence the live shows with cartoon sound effects, hence not accepting accountability for anything, hence acting irrational when angered or embarrassed, and so on.

This is how children act, not adults.

[phetaroi]

In the west its called embarrassment.

No big mystery.

In Thailand, the mystery is the (over) reaction to it.

I think you're both correct. What's the big mystery. All of us, no matter what society we are from, react to a loss of face. Take almost any American bar on a Saturday night. A girl dumps a guy for another guy. Loss of face. Possible fight. The difference is the extent to which one in one society reacts, as compared how one reacts in another society.

My Thai language teacher was once lamenting loss of face as the problem with consumerism in Thailand. We had been talking about clerk's attitudes when something goes wrong with a product, and how the consumer is usually blamed. I hadn't thought of it as a loss of face issue to the clerk/store if they were at fault.

Lots of aspects to it all, but still, not so different from any other society...just the degree and sort of reactions.

[KeyserSoze01]

Can this really happen to someone over the age of 21 with a brain ?

You just answered your own question.

Any more silly questions?

DO YOU UN-DER-STAND ENG-LISH ?

Quite well, thank you very much.

You though, are obviously a little thick. The implication is that there are no Thais over the age of 21 that have a brain. Doh!!! :jap:

[SweeneyAgonistes]

Agreed.

Because many of them have the minds of children. When you drop out of school in the 8th grade (or lower) or didn't go at all, you will have the mind of a child. Hence their LOVE for cartoons, hence the live shows with cartoon sound effects, hence not accepting accountability for anything, hence acting irrational when angered or embarrassed, and so on.

This is how children act, not adults.

On the one hand, this is just racist drivel and you're clearly a first-class wanke_r. On the other, thank you for reminding me why I almost never read this website and why it's best to stay as far away as possible.

[TheLaughingMan]

Dealing with thais, you have to treat them as children when it comes to embarassing them. Just remember that and you will be ok. When they get embarassed they act irationally, so try not to embarass them

Agreed.

Because many of them have the minds of children. When you drop out of school in the 8th grade (or lower) or didn't go at all, you will have the mind of a child. Hence their LOVE for cartoons, hence the live shows with cartoon sound effects, hence not accepting accountability for anything, hence acting irrational when angered or embarrassed, and so on.

This is how children act, not adults.

I like Japanese animation......

[IanForbes]

My main complaint on this thread and many other topics is the arrogance of some people who ALWAYS believe that THEIR way is always better. If you want to debate a topic on how lack of education, or a different TYPE of education affects how people react when dealing with foreigners who don't understand their culture, then do so. Start your OWN topic. Just don't change a thread on a perfectly legitimate question. If someone wants to spout off on racial drivel then take it elsewhere. Or, do it in a manner that is both respectul and understanding in a country like Thailand. Certainly, we all know things in every country that aren't right, but unless you have the power to change them then just accept the country as it is. Enjoy the good things, and put up with the bad, or ignore them completely. As I've said many times, there are ALWAYS two ways to say the same thing. One way is respectful and the other is an arrogant put-down. Self righteous, arrogant bigots are annoying.

[bifftastic]

Dealing with thais, you have to treat them as children when it comes to embarassing them. Just remember that and you will be ok. When they get embarassed they act irationally, so try not to embarass them

Agreed.

Because many of them have the minds of children. When you drop out of school in the 8th grade (or lower) or didn't go at all, you will have the mind of a child. Hence their LOVE for cartoons, hence the live shows with cartoon sound effects, hence not accepting accountability for anything, hence acting irrational when angered or embarrassed, and so on.

This is how children act, not adults.

School is not the end of education. You could quite easily spend most of your life in school and still be an idiot with no concept of how people have varying levels of understanding. You seem to have a very simplistic view of things that you don't understand, a kind of 'I don't get it, therefore it must be stupid' way of looking at it.

Just because you don't understand something doesn't make it wrong or bad, it just means you don't understand it.

It is also important to remember that just because you have seen something every day (and measure it in your own terms), that still doesn't necessarily mean you understand it either.

You recognise it, but you don't get it. So you decide that it's childish. You're applying your own set of rules to it, and it seems to make you quite angry. Maybe that's why what you said seems irrational to me?

There are many many people from all different parts of the world who don't accept accountability for things.

Most people act irrationally when angry or embarrassed, that's human nature.

What is cultural (ie. almost sub-conscious) is what kind of behaviour the loss of rationality leads to. Where I come from it's usually aggression, in one form or another (such as an attempted 'put down' like "they're all stupid children"). In other places it will be different.

What the question in this thread is, (and I've not seen anything that answers it yet) is what exactly is 'the loss of face' and how does it differ from western culture?

Cultural traits are easy to spot in other cultures, what is difficult is spotting our own. It seems to me that this thread has made that somewhat easier!

And if you don't love cartoons, there's something wrong with you

[JurgenG]

First misconception, you can criticize someone in Thailand, just don't do it in front of everybody. Translated in plain english Loss of Face means "public humiliation".

Second, your action, as a foreigner, don't carry the same weight that similar action from a Thai. For a "loss of face" to occur, it has to be intended. Thai people are not stupid, they know we don't have the same culture, the same values. Most of the time Thais just take advantage of foreigners naivety to get away with things they wouldn't otherwise

[dansat]

Agreed.

Because many of them have the minds of children. When you drop out of school in the 8th grade (or lower) or didn't go at all, you will have the mind of a child. Hence their LOVE for cartoons, hence the live shows with cartoon sound effects, hence not accepting accountability for anything, hence acting irrational when angered or embarrassed, and so on.

This is how children act, not adults.

On the one hand, this is just racist drivel and you're clearly a first-class wanke_r. On the other, thank you for reminding me why I almost never read this website and why it's best to stay as far away as possible.

Why is it anyone can post bad comments about Brits, Germans , Russians or what ever country people are from and nothing is said. But as soon as someone points out a fault with Thai people they are called racist.. Thai people can say whatever they want about farangs no matter how racist it is there is always some farang to come on and defend them and say it must have been a mis-understanding. But if its farangs saying anything bad ( no matter how small ) about Thai's they are racists and should quickly go home becuase they dont love all Thai people. !!

I and many other Farangs who live here would say it is 100% ture what Tokay posted.

[Loz]

 The main difference between the face concept in Asia, including Thailand, and status in the West is that the Asians are much more frank about acknowledging its importance.  Here in the US people go to some lengths to avoid admitting the extent to which status drives their behavior.  So that when people buy expensive and overpriced products that are marketed as status symbols, they will mostly attribute their choice to simple personal preference, higher functionality or value rather than status seeking.  Here are some examples of products whose appeal looks to me to be 100% status seeking, but for which status will never be reported as the motivator:

weddings, which among the lower income folks may cost a year's salary (for a party to impress your friends).

Swiss watches for men

high-fee credit cards in colors that identify the more expensive

clothing with visible designer names

SUVs

fashions in clothing that makes new products valueless by making them "obsolete"

Apple products

Neighborhoods 

Public charitable donations - I am thinking of those fund-raisers where people are called upon to stand up and make a pledge or have their name displayed on a public list of donors organized by the size of the gift.  

waste in general - as the sociologist Thorstein Veblen pointed out, the wasteful part of conspicuous consumption is not incidental since it establishes status in a way that lower income folk cannot imitate.

So, it is my observation that Americans care deeply about status and will pay wildly in the hopes to achieving and maintaining it, but they won't admit it.  The advertisers and marketers understand status as a motivation quite well.

Another aspect of face/status in Asian and Thai culture is that since wealth and opportunity are dispensed more usually in patronage networks the economic value of face/status may be higher in Asian societies.

I would think twice before I viewed face in Asian cultures as a basis for self-congratulation.

In the west we have subtlety which is a "civilised" tool common to developed nations. Thais have subtlety but they use it in all the places we don't.

I think this maybe the root cause of face saving confusion.

[Berkshire]

Dealing with thais, you have to treat them as children when it comes to embarassing them. Just remember that and you will be ok. When they get embarassed they act irationally, so try not to embarass them

Agreed.

Because many of them have the minds of children. When you drop out of school in the 8th grade (or lower) or didn't go at all, you will have the mind of a child. Hence their LOVE for cartoons, hence the live shows with cartoon sound effects, hence not accepting accountability for anything, hence acting irrational when angered or embarrassed, and so on.

This is how children act, not adults.

Tokay, if all you ever do is hang out with bargirls and other disenfranchised Thais at the lowest level of the status totem pole, I can see how you would have this perspective. Perhaps you should consider engaging with Thais who are a little more educated. Or is it more of a "birds of a feather, flock together" sort of thing?

[Berkshire]

don't tell us you only have smart people in your motherland.

Good point, now you'll be labelled as an " apologist ", " man with rose tinted specs ", " wait till you've been here longer ", " you'll see what they're like " etc etc.

On ThaiVisa, you're either with the Thai Bashing majority, or you're against them, contentment with your lot will not be tolerated, to be in Thailand must be a time of suffering, it's not possible to actually enjoy living in the place you travelled thousands of miles to live in.

If you're not moaning on this forum and are content, people think there's something wrong with you.

Says a lot about many posters here. They screwed up and have many many regrets, they're unhappy and find it hard to integrate, blown all their money and can't afford to leave cos they blew the lot on a misguided dream, the dream that they could come to Thailand and live like a Lord for the rest of their lives and every day would be a holiday.

The dream fades into reality, and reality isn't pleasant for the dreamer, the dream becomes a nightmare. Bitterness, despair and hopelessness cast a doom cloud over the unfortunate expat, not knowing where to turn, he joins ThaiVisa to find like minded people to complain with, kindred spirits if I may be so bold.

Along comes guys that are content and financially secure to ruin their last place of refuge, how dare these people be content when i'm totally kin' miserable, they must be new here, you wait, they'll find out what Thailand is really like.

They hope you end up just like them, otherwise they failed and you didn't, if everyone fails, they don't feel so bad.

Well written, GM. Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Berkshire]

Loss of face? sure. it's the #1 reason why Thailand will never progress. that and lack of decent education. these peeps don't even know their own history...

Yet they know enough to build a country that you travelled thousands of miles to live in because it's preferable to your own country.

Another good one, GM. I'll bet this torres character doesn't even know the history of his own country.

[Berkshire]

Agreed.

Because many of them have the minds of children. When you drop out of school in the 8th grade (or lower) or didn't go at all, you will have the mind of a child. Hence their LOVE for cartoons, hence the live shows with cartoon sound effects, hence not accepting accountability for anything, hence acting irrational when angered or embarrassed, and so on.

This is how children act, not adults.

On the one hand, this is just racist drivel and you're clearly a first-class wanke_r. On the other, thank you for reminding me why I almost never read this website and why it's best to stay as far away as possible.

Why is it anyone can post bad comments about Brits, Germans , Russians or what ever country people are from and nothing is said. But as soon as someone points out a fault with Thai people they are called racist.. Thai people can say whatever they want about farangs no matter how racist it is there is always some farang to come on and defend them and say it must have been a mis-understanding. But if its farangs saying anything bad ( no matter how small ) about Thai's they are racists and should quickly go home becuase they dont love all Thai people. !!

I and many other Farangs who live here would say it is 100% ture what Tokay posted.

Dansat, you've obviously started this as a Thai-bashing thread. Anything that anyone posts that doesn't follow this theme pisses you off, doesn't it? You and tokay should seriously consider getting together for a love-fest of Thai-bashing twits. Then you can bash away with impunity, never having to worry about these evil "defenders of Thailand" whom you so obviously detest.

[Berkshire]

First misconception, you can criticize someone in Thailand, just don't do it in front of everybody. Translated in plain english Loss of Face means "public humiliation".

Second, your action, as a foreigner, don't carry the same weight that similar action from a Thai. For a "loss of face" to occur, it has to be intended. Thai people are not stupid, they know we don't have the same culture, the same values. Most of the time Thais just take advantage of foreigners naivety to get away with things they wouldn't otherwise

Some good points here. The idea of "loss of face" occurs in EVERY society, although it IS different in Asia. Back in America, I would pull one of my staff aside and chew him/her out in private. I would generally refrain from doing this publicly, as all good American managers would do. What the heck is wrong with that? It's about respect and decency, as well as manners.

The difference in Thailand and Asia is that they take the idea of trying to maintain peace and harmony much more seriously. Essentially, why insult a person and cause him/her to lose face IF it's not necessary? Is there another way to handle it? And what is wrong with respecting the elders? My parents are often wrong about a great many things, but I don't beat them about the head and shoulders over it. That's really all it is. If your grandmother went through the trouble of getting you a Christmas present that you just hated, are you going to be honest and tell her that you hate it? Of course not. Any decent human being would lie and say that "it's just lovely." Many other examples, but the point is that similar sorts of lying and saving face is going on all over the world. So the Thai haters and other idiots that try to make more of it than what it is should really get a grip.