Are Many Guesthouses Full During High Season ?

[dmax]

Ok, I'll have a go dmax. I'm not in the guesthouse game but am a tourist related business owner.

Firstly, 100% occupancy at all times is just not achievable, especially with current economic situation. Google has thrown up 50-60% rates for Pataya guesthouses though those figures are 1-2 years out of date. Optimistically let says you rent 6 rooms at all times at 700 Baht per night x 30= 126k Baht, if my maths is right. But, you'll have to occasionally discount for weekly rate etc, let's say 10% overall, probably more. Now your looking at 113K

113K ( being optimistic ) minus rent of 70k per month, minus key money @ 10k per month. Let's say you now have 23k in your hand. If I run aircon in one of my offices for around 10 hours per day my eccentricity bill is around 1500 bpm. So, 6 rooms x aircon is around 9k per month plus electricity for rest of building, I'd be looking at 15k per month. Your 23k after pay electricity becomes 8k whick will be easily eaten up with water bills, maintenance , 'phone bills and a hundred other smaller items.

IMO there is zero profit in your proposed business from the room letting point of view and, more likely a loss as I've been probably generous in average rental rates under current conditions. Any profit lies in the proposed bar and food side of things which, whilst I don't know Pattaya seems extremely competitive and over supplied at the minute, from what I read on TV.

P.S. Forget to even mention staff salaries, depreciation and replacement of fittings etc......

thanks judas, very good advice mate !! just wish i had asked all these questions before we put deposit down, but hindsights a wonderfull thing, i have learnt from it !! thankyou

[kennalder]

Ok, I'll have a go dmax. I'm not in the guesthouse game but am a tourist related business owner.

Firstly, 100% occupancy at all times is just not achievable, especially with current economic situation. Google has thrown up 50-60% rates for Pataya guesthouses though those figures are 1-2 years out of date. Optimistically let says you rent 6 rooms at all times at 700 Baht per night x 30= 126k Baht, if my maths is right. But, you'll have to occasionally discount for weekly rate etc, let's say 10% overall, probably more. Now your looking at 113K

113K ( being optimistic ) minus rent of 70k per month, minus key money @ 10k per month. Let's say you now have 23k in your hand. If I run aircon in one of my offices for around 10 hours per day my eccentricity bill is around 1500 bpm. So, 6 rooms x aircon is around 9k per month plus electricity for rest of building, I'd be looking at 15k per month. Your 23k after pay electricity becomes 8k whick will be easily eaten up with water bills, maintenance , 'phone bills and a hundred other smaller items.

IMO there is zero profit in your proposed business from the room letting point of view and, more likely a loss as I've been probably generous in average rental rates under current conditions. Any profit lies in the proposed bar and food side of things which, whilst I don't know Pattaya seems extremely competitive and over supplied at the minute, from what I read on TV.

P.S. Forget to even mention staff salaries, depreciation and replacement of fittings etc......

The answer is obvious to the average Thai. You rental rates are too low. Go up to about 1500 baht a night and never waiver. Problem solved.

[Soi Sauce]

Your prices are too high.

There are big numbers of excellent rooms avbl in the area from 500-700, all of which have the facilities you are offering and often more, ex 42" TVs, sub-woofer systems.

Also, you're in the wrong part of the soi. Around the LK Metro, Diana, Honey, Chayapoon area is where people want to be. Down by the market is a bit in the boonies.

[simon43]

Dmax, I cannot agree that you should cut your prices. If you do that, then you are effectively cutting your own throat and reducing your business revenue to an unprofitable level. There is a balance between charging too much and charging too little - you need to find the right balance.

As I mentioned previously, you should not try to rely on passing customers, who can rapidly compare prices in the soi and choose the cheapest option. Rather, aim to pre-sell your rooms via the internet/booking agents. With a good web site and professional photos of your guest-rooms, you can sell at a higher price than might be achieved from passing traffic, (basically, you get a higher price because the customer is not aware that there are cheaper options - same as the marketing tactic of many major hotels). You also benefit from better cash-flow because you can receive room deposits (or full payment) prior to the customer actually staying in your hotel.

Simon

Edited November 30, 2010 by simon43

[Ulysses G.]

Dmax, I cannot agree that you should cut your prices. If you do that, then you are effectively cutting your own throat and reducing your business revenue to an unprofitable level. There is a balance between charging too much and charging too little - you need to find the right balance.

Sounds like great business advice.

One of the biggest problems with doing business in Thailand is competing against inept businesspeople who subsidize their meager profits (if they make any at all) with their pension and make it difficult for those who have to rely on earnings.

[actiondell4]

You would of been better buying a shophouse in that area.

I have seen 6 room shophouses at 4 million baht.

[Bedrockguesthouse]

let me ask any of you this , have any of you owned a bar or business in thailand before ? all im getting is shit and negitive flaming comments !!! apart from jamie and sarayu . and as jamie says if everyone thought the same as you lot then where would you all drink in thailand ?

the reason for sale is because the landowner renovated it to rent out, key money per year 120-000 plus 70-000 pm rent . how can a fking beer bar make money and still pay 40-50 k per mth rent ?

how does canterbury arms survive ? how does crazy daves survive ? murphys law ? you want me to go on ? lets here your answers on this quetion i ask you all ( the experts ) now !!!

I run a guesthouse opposite koh samet island. a few points from me after running this place for over 2 years and by the way my wife and i have never done this business before.

1) i think yr electric bill calculation is wrong. Our place has 7 aircon rooms 4 fan rooms, bar/grill and seperate thai kitchen. Hi season for us is December to end of april. these months our elec bill is 28k to 32k. other months probably averages 15-18k dependant on occupancy.

2) u wont average 700 baht per nite for a calendar year better work out yr calculation on half of that 350 per nite.

3) we have we have 3 staff plus my mrs and me and help from friends when we need our total salary bill is 20,000 p/mth. We dont do the girl thing cause ban phe has that covered in a few places. So my point in yr salary cost is important. BIB we dont worry about. or shud i say they dont bother us..

One other thing i didnt factor in is month to month maintenance which probably is around 5k per month

Anyway not sure if thats much help but if u got other questions let me know

We break even to a small profit monthly and we dont draw a salary. Our website has helped us greatly once we got in the front page of google yahoo etc. Also we have not had to pay key money. Our rent is 30k month. However we hav a place to stay, eat our food/drink so its more a lifestyle approach to biz

Cheers mark

[cardholder]

Let me pre-empt my comments with stating that I applaud any Farang attempting to do business in Thailand and wish them every success.

However, in this case my initial reaction is (rather unusually) to follow pipo1000's advice to "Run Forrest Run".

Advice has been asked for and in a previous life I have reviewed many business plans. I accept that we do not have the written business plan which would no doubt incorporate a comprehensive break-even analysis plus analyses of competitor information, market conditions, impact of exchange rate fluctuations, sensitivity analysis and a few 'what if' scenarios.

Experience tells me that no business ever performs exactly to plan - they under or over perform. I have to say that 99% under-perform. Experience also tells me that capital costs are usually understated by 20-30%, costs by at least that and revenue projections overstated by a minimum of 25% (often a lot more). In this case there is no existing trade to base performance on, it is a cold start and that does not usually score brownie points in a business that has no USP. I am also ignoring employment of bar girls as that would be suicidal.

So, to take the figures at face value and apply my 'sensitivity' the numbers would come out something like this (based on a 50 week year):-

Room revenue: 11 rooms x 350 x 25% x 450 Bt = 433k. Bar sales 30 x 350 x 25Bt = 263k. Food, say, 1k gross profit per day = 350k. Total 'gross profit' 1,046k Baht.

Overheads:- Rent 840k, Electric/water/gas 360k, Chef 150k, Staff 240k, legal/prof/maintenance 120k (min) = Total overheads 1,710k Baht.

Projected loss 664k Baht.

I know that somebody is going to tell me my figures are pessimistic. That being the case show me where additional revenue of 2,000 per day can be generated. There will be more days in the year when you will be under 25% occupancy than above. Someone mentioned that pubs like the Queen Vic have electric bills in excess of 50,000.

The above calculations take no account of cost of capital to which I would add 4% of 1.4m = 56k..

No mention is made of the amount of deposit paid but I would most seriously consider sacrificing it. Next time, avoid pressure from your missus, put a proper business plan together and seek advice before expending a Satang.

Finally, I would suggest that the majority of Falang businesses are 'lifestyle businesses' ie they are not necessarily designed to make a profit and any losses can be funded by the operator in the knowledge that they are doing what they want to do - and they could not afford to do it in their own country.

Not in Pattaya but I spent 700k refurbishing, furnishing, equipping, stocking and providing working capital (3 months overheads) for a business. That money I am prepared to lose as the cost of doing something I want to do. I pay the rent (which includes our 3 bed accommodation) of 9k p.m.

We open 6 days a week and my daily breakeven figure is 2k - somedays we don't make it, but on a weekly basis we are over target.Itwill not make us rich !!

Edited November 30, 2010 by cardholder

[Tolley]

It seems that the OP has been pushed into this venture by his woman.

You have only paid the deposit so I would back off this plan and sacrifice the deposit safe in the knowledge in the long term you are saving money.

Most Thai women i have known will try and push you into some silly business because they think it is a good idea.

My girl hassled me for years to buy a business in Pattaya and I decided to acquiesce and gave her 60K baht for a shop front selling food in soi 4 off second road. I told her i reckoned she would only last three months and low and behold it was almost three months to the day that the business folded.

It was however a wise 60k investment for me because when she started pestering me to buy a bar at one time and then a laundry I pointed out her failure on the previous venture as sound reason to forget about any more business ventures in Pattaya as we would be better off spending the money on ourselves instead.

[cardholder]

I forgot to add that, IMO, very few places are making much money at the moment and most fear that there will not be a 'noticeable' high season.

It should also be noted that many of the established businesses are exactly that - established. They have round long enough to have acquired freehold (or largely paid off mortgages) or put some fat on the business when times were good.

Frankly, this is not a good time to start a business in Pattaya. Too many controls, too many players, too few customers.

[dmax]

You would of been better buying a shophouse in that area.

I have seen 6 room shophouses at 4 million baht.

why pay 4 mill baht for a shop house with only 6 rooms ? i was thinking this place was a decent deal because it had 12 good big rooms, ok high rent but its right on the soi. with scope for bar plus resturaunt plus 12 rental rooms.

i could buy the hole in one guesthouse on soi lankee ( now closed and in need of renovation ) for 1.4 mill but i would need to put 1 mill into it at least. the rent there is 45-000 per month.

is that a better deal ? i dont think so .

Edited November 30, 2010 by dmax

[dmax]

It seems that the OP has been pushed into this venture by his woman.

You have only paid the deposit so I would back off this plan and sacrifice the deposit safe in the knowledge in the long term you are saving money.

Most Thai women i have known will try and push you into some silly business because they think it is a good idea.

My girl hassled me for years to buy a business in Pattaya and I decided to acquiesce and gave her 60K baht for a shop front selling food in soi 4 off second road. I told her i reckoned she would only last three months and low and behold it was almost three months to the day that the business folded.

It was however a wise 60k investment for me because when she started pestering me to buy a bar at one time and then a laundry I pointed out her failure on the previous venture as sound reason to forget about any more business ventures in Pattaya as we would be better off spending the money on ourselves instead.

well there was a certain amount of pressure from the mrs i will be honest there with you. and she gave her thai gold as deposit so now im pulling the plug on this idea as its only 50-000 baht, would rather walk away from 50k than 2 mill or more !!! im getting it in the ear now but it will only last for a day or two.

i will definately be giving a lot more thought on anything else in the future, and not make rash decisions whilst half drunk and listening to my wife yes i have learnt a lesson here, and that is the 3 t,s , think hard , think long , think twice !!

just hate the thoughts of spending time back in uk , fkin hate the place !!

anyway thanks to all who gave me some positive advice

[pipo1000]

You would of been better buying a shophouse in that area.

I have seen 6 room shophouses at 4 million baht.

why pay 4 mill baht for a shop house with only 6 rooms ? i was thinking this place was a decent deal because it had 12 good big rooms, ok high rent but its right on the soi. with scope for bar plus resturaunt plus 12 rental rooms.

i could buy the hole in one guesthouse on soi lankee ( now closed and in need of renovation ) for 1.4 mill but i would need to put 1 mill into it at least. the rent there is 45-000 per month.

is that a better deal ? i dont think so .

I guess you don't understand the difference between buy and takeover.What I think actiondell means is a one time expense,no rent or keymoney ever .

[cardholder]

well there was a certain amount of pressure from the mrs i will be honest there with you. and she gave her thai gold as deposit so now im pulling the plug on this idea as its only 50-000 baht, would rather walk away from 50k than 2 mill or more !!! im getting it in the ear now but it will only last for a day or two.

i will definately be giving a lot more thought on anything else in the future, and not make rash decisions whilst half drunk and listening to my wife yes i have learnt a lesson here, and that is the 3 t,s , think hard , think long , think twice !!

just hate the thoughts of spending time back in uk , fkin hate the place !!

anyway thanks to all who gave me some positive advice

Takes a brave man to do this. I congratulate you dmax.

it is a very wise man who has never made a mistake, but a wiser man who recognises when it is time to cut and run.

[SOMCHAISBROTHER]

You would of been better buying a shophouse in that area.

I have seen 6 room shophouses at 4 million baht.

Someone with a brain. That's why 99% of business's fail here because 99% haven't got one.

[prefabs]

dmax, how you gonna explain to her about her gold? And that deposits are lost when not followed up? Glad I am not in your shoes

[jori]

There was no need to take advice from anyone,just take a walk along what would have been your catchment area,deader than dead,as though it never existed,at least a third worse than this time last year and only 3 weeks from Xmas,imagine 3 weeks after Xmas, then this time next year and so on.See just how quiet 2nd road is,seemed impossible a few years ago to estimate the fall off here. One hotel had 15% occupancy at Xmas last year close by,and another large hotel being built only a few hundred yards from it,crazy.

[changnaam]

Dmax,

Firstly well done, I think this is not a decision you will regret. You still have the money in the bank (or most of it) and have learned a few things along the way. I agree it takes a man to stand up and say you got it wrong and lets take a step back.... especially to the wife.

If you really want to stay then why not look at working for a while, there is work out there for those who are prepared to graft. If your wife wants a business then what about something small that could be built up over time. If you pulled in 40k a month and she made 10k then I am sure it is more than you would ever have made with this business and you still have your cash in the bank.

You worked hard to get the money which you saved so try and protect that and work out how you can add to it rather than waste it.

Also fair play to you for taking the advice as it was intended and listening to what people were saying.

Good luck

[morphious]

Glad you are not going into this venture it really does sound to good to be true altho i totally agree with your thoughts about returning to the uk, there are other ventures available if you really feel so strong about running a business here but perhaps try something out of pattaya where everything is not going to drain your resorces including the BIB. Good luck on anything you may try, and rest assured if you keep us informed, i will definatley come and have a few scoops with you.

[ciaociao]

It seems that the OP has been pushed into this venture by his woman.

You have only paid the deposit so I would back off this plan and sacrifice the deposit safe in the knowledge in the long term you are saving money.

Most Thai women i have known will try and push you into some silly business because they think it is a good idea.

My girl hassled me for years to buy a business in Pattaya and I decided to acquiesce and gave her 60K baht for a shop front selling food in soi 4 off second road. I told her i reckoned she would only last three months and low and behold it was almost three months to the day that the business folded.

It was however a wise 60k investment for me because when she started pestering me to buy a bar at one time and then a laundry I pointed out her failure on the previous venture as sound reason to forget about any more business ventures in Pattaya as we would be better off spending the money on ourselves instead.

well there was a certain amount of pressure from the mrs i will be honest there with you. and she gave her thai gold as deposit so now im pulling the plug on this idea as its only 50-000 baht, would rather walk away from 50k than 2 mill or more !!! im getting it in the ear now but it will only last for a day or two.

i will definately be giving a lot more thought on anything else in the future, and not make rash decisions whilst half drunk and listening to my wife yes i have learnt a lesson here, and that is the 3 t,s , think hard , think long , think twice !!

just hate the thoughts of spending time back in uk , fkin hate the place !!

anyway thanks to all who gave me some positive advice

Thank god you made the right decision. It would be a shame to loose a lot of money that you worked so hard to obtain.

[Tolley]

Well done mate.

You have saved yourself a lot of money and heartache.

If you want to stay in Thailand and make a living you would be far better off in some sort of on line business or where you can work remotely on a computer.

Unfortunately the odds are stacked way too far against you to make any money and I was serious before when i said you had far better odds at the casion betting on red or black which is almost 50 percent chance of success as opposed to almost nil with most small business ventures in Pattaya.

[cardholder]

Dmax, Thailand is all about how much it costs or how much you can/want to pay.

This venture would have cost too much, perhaps lower your sights a bit and explore the costs in the boonies like I did.

[Beardog]

Good decision Dmax- better to make money on a calculated risk than on a whim especially from advice from any Thai women telling how rich you will become. Better a small loss now than the almost assured heartbreak with lots of sweat equity to go along with it. Most businesses around the world do not make money the first year the second year can break even & the third if it is going to make it . I have had 6 businesses 4 solid winners 2 dogs with fleas & can thank Macy's for the eye opener of a lifetime for destroying me when I was 18 in wholesaling merchandise. Best dam_n lesson I ever got & kept me on the watch for booking winners instead of losers............Make that 3 losers. When I moved here I put my gal together with a beauty salon. It made money. She took in 8000-9000 baht clear for 3 months. She worked 15 hours a day & was sooooo bored waiting for the next customer. Then being Pattaya & all 5 more beauty salons in a 2 block radius popped up. We quickly took at that time $750.00 loss a little less than 60,000 baht & found a new owner that went tits up in 4 month.

In business (especially here) one really needs to dig & find out the skinny before making the plunge. I think you did the right thing.Thailand has way to many variables & you really need something special & out of the norm & hope to god some club like Lucifers with loud driving music does not open or the road crew doesn't tear your road to shreds like Jomtien for years.

better to think of it is a small price for a well earned lesson. And Never let anyone guide you into a deal-best if you are the one gungho on the event.

[actiondell4]

See.you would all think different if he owned the building wouldn't you all.

Suddenly he could make a go of it.

Dmax,how much to BUY a 8 room shophouse in that area ?

I think about 4 million ?

Couldn't you beg borrow steal another 3 mil to BUY the building ?

NO RENT that way

[Tolley]

See.you would all think different if he owned the building wouldn't you all.

Suddenly he could make a go of it.

Dmax,how much to BUY a 8 room shophouse in that area ?

I think about 4 million ?

Couldn't you beg borrow steal another 3 mil to BUY the building ?

NO RENT that way

Of course if you owned the building you wouldn't bother you would rent it out to some poor suckers to do the hard work while you sat back and collected your rent.

[mark45y]

It seems that the OP has been pushed into this venture by his woman.

You have only paid the deposit so I would back off this plan and sacrifice the deposit safe in the knowledge in the long term you are saving money.

Most Thai women i have known will try and push you into some silly business because they think it is a good idea.

My girl hassled me for years to buy a business in Pattaya and I decided to acquiesce and gave her 60K baht for a shop front selling food in soi 4 off second road. I told her i reckoned she would only last three months and low and behold it was almost three months to the day that the business folded.

It was however a wise 60k investment for me because when she started pestering me to buy a bar at one time and then a laundry I pointed out her failure on the previous venture as sound reason to forget about any more business ventures in Pattaya as we would be better off spending the money on ourselves instead.

well there was a certain amount of pressure from the mrs i will be honest there with you. and she gave her thai gold as deposit so now im pulling the plug on this idea as its only 50-000 baht, would rather walk away from 50k than 2 mill or more !!! im getting it in the ear now but it will only last for a day or two.

i will definately be giving a lot more thought on anything else in the future, and not make rash decisions whilst half drunk and listening to my wife yes i have learnt a lesson here, and that is the 3 t,s , think hard , think long , think twice !!

just hate the thoughts of spending time back in uk , fkin hate the place !!

anyway thanks to all who gave me some positive advice

What was the straw that broke the camels back and you changed your mind? Electric cost? Projected occupancy? What was the one thing that pushed you from positive to negative?

[prefabs]

He probably sobered up

[dmax]

It seems that the OP has been pushed into this venture by his woman.

You have only paid the deposit so I would back off this plan and sacrifice the deposit safe in the knowledge in the long term you are saving money.

Most Thai women i have known will try and push you into some silly business because they think it is a good idea.

My girl hassled me for years to buy a business in Pattaya and I decided to acquiesce and gave her 60K baht for a shop front selling food in soi 4 off second road. I told her i reckoned she would only last three months and low and behold it was almost three months to the day that the business folded.

It was however a wise 60k investment for me because when she started pestering me to buy a bar at one time and then a laundry I pointed out her failure on the previous venture as sound reason to forget about any more business ventures in Pattaya as we would be better off spending the money on ourselves instead.

well there was a certain amount of pressure from the mrs i will be honest there with you. and she gave her thai gold as deposit so now im pulling the plug on this idea as its only 50-000 baht, would rather walk away from 50k than 2 mill or more !!! im getting it in the ear now but it will only last for a day or two.

i will definately be giving a lot more thought on anything else in the future, and not make rash decisions whilst half drunk and listening to my wife yes i have learnt a lesson here, and that is the 3 t,s , think hard , think long , think twice !!

just hate the thoughts of spending time back in uk , fkin hate the place !!

anyway thanks to all who gave me some positive advice

What was the straw that broke the camels back and you changed your mind? Electric cost? Projected occupancy? What was the one thing that pushed you from positive to negative?

it was the thought of going back to the uk next year skint staying in a sally army hostel with no wife or kid or job, i listened to the advice on here, i summed up the electricity costs wrong for a start, also the occupancy rate, like i say i have been constantly looking for somewhere for 10 years now wether its a shop in isaan or a guesthouse, just never fancied a beer bar , seen my dad come here 5 years ago after selling his business and house, he bought a bar on walking street, he lived like a king for 2 years then next thing he was back in uk broke and divorced, i dont want that to happen to me, also i got some work ( hopefully ) coming up on rigs offshore in holland in feb so fingers crossed, my wife lost 50-000 deposit in gold, she will get it back, would rather lose 50k than 2-3 mill baht !!!

LESSON LEARNT !! thanks everyone for your advice.

[dmax]

It seems that the OP has been pushed into this venture by his woman.

You have only paid the deposit so I would back off this plan and sacrifice the deposit safe in the knowledge in the long term you are saving money.

Most Thai women i have known will try and push you into some silly business because they think it is a good idea.

My girl hassled me for years to buy a business in Pattaya and I decided to acquiesce and gave her 60K baht for a shop front selling food in soi 4 off second road. I told her i reckoned she would only last three months and low and behold it was almost three months to the day that the business folded.

It was however a wise 60k investment for me because when she started pestering me to buy a bar at one time and then a laundry I pointed out her failure on the previous venture as sound reason to forget about any more business ventures in Pattaya as we would be better off spending the money on ourselves instead.

well there was a certain amount of pressure from the mrs i will be honest there with you. and she gave her thai gold as deposit so now im pulling the plug on this idea as its only 50-000 baht, would rather walk away from 50k than 2 mill or more !!! im getting it in the ear now but it will only last for a day or two.

i will definately be giving a lot more thought on anything else in the future, and not make rash decisions whilst half drunk and listening to my wife yes i have learnt a lesson here, and that is the 3 t,s , think hard , think long , think twice !!

just hate the thoughts of spending time back in uk , fkin hate the place !!

anyway thanks to all who gave me some positive advice

What was the straw that broke the camels back and you changed your mind? Electric cost? Projected occupancy? What was the one thing that pushed you from positive to negative?

it was the thought of going back to the uk next year skint staying in a sally army hostel with no wife or kid or job, i listened to the advice on here, i summed up the electricity costs wrong for a start, also the occupancy rate, like i say i have been constantly looking for somewhere for 10 years now wether its a shop in isaan or a guesthouse, just never fancied a beer bar , seen my dad come here 5 years ago after selling his business and house, he bought a bar on walking street, he lived like a king for 2 years then next thing he was back in uk broke and divorced, i dont want that to happen to me, also i got some work ( hopefully ) coming up on rigs offshore in holland in feb so fingers crossed, my wife lost 50-000 deposit in gold, she will get it back, would rather lose 50k than 2-3 mill baht !!!

LESSON LEARNT !! thanks everyone for your advice.

[NALAK]

great idea apart from 1. there is going to be no high season, Europe is nearly bankrupt, millions losing jobs, that i assume would be your target market. 2. what happens 8 months of the year when your empty.

who comes to pattaya to sit in room and watch dvds.

40 beers per day 365 days per year, never happen, i can only assume you never ran a business before in Europe or done any serious fesablility studies of running a business for a year, during the worlds worst recession. what beer could you sell at 50 baht and make 30 baht profit on. cost price 20 baht? maybe it can be done but you will never sell 40 perday to many other places around to visit.

i spent 3 years at uni studying business amanagement trust me its a non starter.

Edited December 1, 2010 by NALAK