Red Shirts Disappointed With Thai Democrat Verdict

[Siam Simon]

If your idol would stop his efforts to disrupt this country, it would help tremendously in their endeavor to make progress.

Thaksin and his cronies are a very noisy side issue nowadays. Thaksin won't be back. It won't be allowed. The country has moved on, and so have the politicians at the cutting edge. It's time to re-assess. The important battle now is between the modernisers led by Abhisit and the dinosaurs such as Suthep. And a battle it is. This is where you should be directing your focus if you don't want to be left behind like some museum piece.

I can appreciate your predictions on what the unpredictable man will or will not do and also appreciate your telling me what to post on, but if it bothers you that much as to what and where I choose to post, perhaps its best if you just focus on your own posting and allow others the freedom to post on what they choose to without attempting to belittle and insult them for those choices. It would make for a more harmonious discussion by toning down the noisy overly-personal rhetoric.

.

A pot and kettle argument, John, as is so often the case with you.

[Buchholz]

A pot and kettle argument

Got a quote of mine wherein I tell other members what they should post on?

[ianbaggie]

Not all Nazis supported Hitler - but they were still nazis!!

So if we swap what I take to be the equivalent terms we get: Not all reds support Thaksin - but they are still reds. Is that what you meant?

One mans "suffocatingly yellow" is another mans freedom and liberty from burnt buildings and grenade attacks - you are wrong of course!!

I see. So when I write Thaivisa is suffocatingly yellow, what I mean is that Thaivisa supports freedom and liberty...but I'm wrong.

You do seem rather confused about what you believe. Why don't you go and lie down for a year or two and think it through.

Ahhh - if in doubt twist it round till it doesnt make sense - I think my message was perfectly clear for anyone who didnt leave school before they were 13!! What I CLEARLY was stating is that being anti red shirt doesnt mean being PRO Yellow shirt - so there you have it - an explanation that even you could understand - but then I guess its hard to get the BIG picture when you have such a small SCREEN!!- Oh and well done for understanding the Hitler quote - glad some one explained it to you!! I hope my explanation move you out of Key stage 1 Primary school and into Key Stage 2 Junior school level "current affairs lessons".

[ianbaggie]

Is it really necessary to put "PRO-THAKSIN GROUPS" in the sub-title and then in red on the OP? It's a bit obvious, isn't it?

Not all reds are pro-Thaksin

Can we put this statement to bed once and for all - Thaksin is the puppet master of the red shirts - he funds them- organises them and feeds Juthaporn with his next move. The PTP have NO poliocies whatsoever except to bring back Shinawatra!! they have repeated and admitted this themselves on numerous occasions. Therefore a vote for the PTP or support for their terrorist right arm the red shirts is AUTOMATICALLY a vote for the deposed criminal ex prime minister - a great result yesterday!! best for ALL of Thailand!!

Not all Nazis supported Hitler - but they were still nazis!!

Could you not also say that a vote for Abhisit/Newin is a vote for the Military, the Bangkok Business Elite and the Amataya.

No you couldnt!!! Not really!! even if you could - the current Government have done quite well so far - unlike their predecessor who bribed and murdered and blundered and vote rigged his way through 1 and a half terms!!

[ChiangMaiFun]

Let's stop all this 'noise' and get international obervers in and hold an election - whoever wins - wins

But oh no the government won't do that because it will expose and topple their shaky edifice - not only exposing red malpractice but the Army's control etc.

[rubl]

Let's stop all this 'noise' and get international obervers in and hold an election - whoever wins - wins

But oh no the government won't do that because it will expose and topple their shaky edifice - not only exposing red malpractice but the Army's control etc.

Whoever is acknowledged as winner wins. Subtle difference, but those observers would agree with it

[Insight]

If your idol would stop his efforts to disrupt this country, it would help tremendously in their endeavor to make progress.

John, if you broaden your horizon a little, you will see that Thaksin and his cronies are a very noisy side issue nowadays. Thaksin won't be back. It won't be allowed. The country has moved on, and so have the politicians at the cutting edge. It's time to re-assess. The important battle now is between the modernisers led by Abhisit and the dinosaurs such as Suthep. And a battle it is. This is where you should be directing your focus if you don't want to be left behind like some museum piece.

Who won't allow it? The people you describe below?

This is an excellent post, but i have to disagree with the opinion of political dinosaurs being in their death-throes: They appear to have allies in the very highest realm of the military, which makes the job of the genuine reformers in government difficult, to say the least.

Regardless of the minor quarrels occurring within the Dems, they no doubt all agree on the Thaksin issue. You know as well as I do however that if PTP could have their way the likelihood of Thaksin returning will increase exponentially.

[ChiangMaiFun]

Let's stop all this 'noise' and get international obervers in and hold an election - whoever wins - wins

But oh no the government won't do that because it will expose and topple their shaky edifice - not only exposing red malpractice but the Army's control etc.

Whoever is acknowledged as winner wins. Subtle difference, but those observers would agree with it

International monitors could errrr 'monitor' the fairness of the election - vote buying, rigging etc. then people would have more confidence in the outcome - I believe the Dems would not win as they are seen as the party of the rich elite (which they are).

[Siam Simon]

If your idol would stop his efforts to disrupt this country, it would help tremendously in their endeavor to make progress.

John, if you broaden your horizon a little, you will see that Thaksin and his cronies are a very noisy side issue nowadays. Thaksin won't be back. It won't be allowed. The country has moved on, and so have the politicians at the cutting edge. It's time to re-assess. The important battle now is between the modernisers led by Abhisit and the dinosaurs such as Suthep. And a battle it is. This is where you should be directing your focus if you don't want to be left behind like some museum piece.

Who won't allow it? The people you describe below?

This is an excellent post, but i have to disagree with the opinion of political dinosaurs being in their death-throes: They appear to have allies in the very highest realm of the military, which makes the job of the genuine reformers in government difficult, to say the least.

Regardless of the minor quarrels occurring within the Dems, they no doubt all agree on the Thaksin issue. You know as well as I do however that if PTP could have their way the likelihood of Thaksin returning will increase exponentially.

No, Mickey Mouse won't allow it. He's quite a popular mouse, you know. And the minor quarrels will define the future of the country. Thaksin will be excluded from the decision-making process, but let's include him on a nuisance level, if for nothing else, old time's sake.The important thing is, it diverts from the current rapists

[Buchholz]

You know as well as I do however that if PTP could have their way the likelihood of Thaksin returning will increase exponentially.

Thaksin To Return To Thailand If Pheu Thai Wins

and

I Will Return To Post Of Prime Minister: Thaksin

[phiphidon]

Depending on what you already believe either CRES e.a. come to mind, or PTP, red-shirts, 'burn-it-my-way' Arisman c.s. We both know that some is hearsay, some can be proven. Funnily enough most of the 'we can prove' part condemns UDD / red-shirts / PTP. Whenever a grenade explodes in Bangkok I hear it must be the government. Even when some red-shirts say 'it was me'. Go figure. Seems 'when in doubt spread fear' is a red-shirt saying. But don't worry dear PPD, you may sleep safe and soundly, you're an alien anyway probably

I'm an alien? Thats a new one to add to my CV. Please explain.

[Buchholz]

you're an alien anyway probably

I'm an alien? Thats a new one to add to my CV. Please explain.

Welcome to Thailand. The hub of aliens.

[jdinasia]

Back on topic - wouldn't you think that the democrats could afford one reasonably competent lawyer who would have noticed that the case was brought after the allowed time period, and applied for an early dismissal. Of course, he would have lost a fortune in fees, but might have got a bonus.

That point was argued in the summation (that the court has had for awhile now --- the actual summation is a formality). I am not sure that Thai law allows for "early dismissal" but the time-frame for charges was certainly one of the points raised by the Dems. ((and their team was led by a Dem -- not sure he got paid anything extra!)

[phiphidon]

you're an alien anyway probably

I'm an alien? Thats a new one to add to my CV. Please explain.

Welcome to Thailand. The hub of aliens.

Excellent, I'm exempt due to me and hirsuteness (is that a word, it should be) being strangers and the Dutch get a free ride as well as long as they're in national costume!

[Insight]

No, Mickey Mouse won't allow it. He's quite a popular mouse, you know. And the minor quarrels will define the future of the country. Thaksin will be excluded from the decision-making process, but let's include him on a nuisance level, if for nothing else, old time's sake.The important thing is, it diverts from the current rapists

It's quite interesting how Mickey has suddenly been placed in the sights of the UDD given the last time he was in any way linked to what has been happening is when the red shirts delivered a large number of red boxes to Disneyland apparently containing a large number of letters asking to show forgiveness to Thaksin (actually IIRC the red shirts themselves had trouble agreeing on what the letters were requesting). Can't help but wonder if this "appeal" was successful would they be targeting poor old "Mickey" now? I doubt it.

[OzMick]

Let's stop all this 'noise' and get international obervers in and hold an election - whoever wins - wins

But oh no the government won't do that because it will expose and topple their shaky edifice - not only exposing red malpractice but the Army's control etc.

Whoever is acknowledged as winner wins. Subtle difference, but those observers would agree with it

International monitors could errrr 'monitor' the fairness of the election - vote buying, rigging etc. then people would have more confidence in the outcome - I believe the Dems would not win as they are seen as the party of the rich elite (which they are).

And PTP is the party of the criminal rich elite - hard to choose isn't it?

[jdinasia]

International monitors could errrr 'monitor' the fairness of the election - vote buying, rigging etc. then people would have more confidence in the outcome - I believe the Dems would not win as they are seen as the party of the rich elite (which they are).

And PTP is the party of the criminal rich elite - hard to choose isn't it?

Ummm the Dems "are seen as the party of the rich elite (which they are)." --- please explain that to the people in the South etc. You can believe the Dems wouldn't win but that is probably just wishful thinking. In the 2007 elections the Dems got more raw votes than PPP. PPP then encompassed what was then the 'friends of Newin' faction, who have since left and founded BJT. Thaksin had bought up some of the other regional political machines back then too. They have left. The next election is likely to see as a result a VERY similar government elected as the one we have now.

[hammered]

Same old arguments. The court gives a verdict on a contentious poltical case and the ones who dont like it try to capitalise on using it to fire up or increase their political support. Realpolitik

[rubl]

Let's stop all this 'noise' and get international obervers in and hold an election - whoever wins - wins

But oh no the government won't do that because it will expose and topple their shaky edifice - not only exposing red malpractice but the Army's control etc.

Whoever is acknowledged as winner wins. Subtle difference, but those observers would agree with it

International monitors could errrr 'monitor' the fairness of the election - vote buying, rigging etc. then people would have more confidence in the outcome - I believe the Dems would not win as they are seen as the party of the rich elite (which they are).

My last reply didn't mention any party, just tried to emphasize 'acknowledged winner' who ever that may be. No party mentioned, only objective what and how things may / should be.

To include the 'Dems wouldn't win' would be same as including 'PTP wouldn't win'.

AS you said 'lets stop this noise and get observers in', although I'm not sure having observers would really help. But that's a different matter .

[Throatwobbler]

Let's stop all this 'noise' and get international obervers in and hold an election - whoever wins - wins

But oh no the government won't do that because it will expose and topple their shaky edifice - not only exposing red malpractice but the Army's control etc.

Or it may show the rampant vote buying and voter intimidation that's happening in the North and Issan. I know many Thai's who are scared of voicing their opinion in Issan and the North because of the intimidation. By the way I live in Chiang Mai.

[Throatwobbler]

To add to the above post do you think that Democrat politicians could travel freely and without fear to the North and Issan to put forward their point of view. If they can't then there is no way we can have afree and fair election. PTP were allowed to campaign in Bangkok.

Edited December 1, 2010 by Throatwobbler

[rubl]

To add to the above post do you think that Democrat politicians could travel freely and without fear to the North and Issan to put forward their point of view. If they can't then there is no way we can have afree and fair election. PTP were allowed to campaign in Bangkok.

Small PS: even in the Dem's stronghold of Surat Thani the PTP candidate could travel freely. It was known he wouldn't get many votes against k. Suthep, but none the less he could walk around and talk freely with those who wanted to listen.

[Throatwobbler]

To add to the above post do you think that Democrat politicians could travel freely and without fear to the North and Issan to put forward their point of view. If they can't then there is no way we can have afree and fair election. PTP were allowed to campaign in Bangkok.

Small PS: even in the Dem's stronghold of Surat Thani the PTP candidate could travel freely. It was known he wouldn't get many votes against k. Suthep, but none the less he could walk around and talk freely with those who wanted to listen.

I agree. I forgot to mention that the PTP could campaign in Bangkok for elections after they held a city hostage and burnt some of it down on their leaders orders. You must have heard the bring a litre of petrol speech.

Edited December 1, 2010 by Throatwobbler

[termad]

To add to the above post do you think that Democrat politicians could travel freely and without fear to the North and Issan to put forward their point of view. If they can't then there is no way we can have afree and fair election. PTP were allowed to campaign in Bangkok.

There's nothing to stop them going to the North or North East as long as somebody is willing to pay the cost of the required security. There would be exactly the same problem if the National Front tried to campaign in Southall.

Edited December 2, 2010 by termad

[termad]

Could you not also say that a vote for Abhisit/Newin is a vote for the Military, the Bangkok Business Elite and the Amataya.

Probably could make a valid argument for that (fair is fair, after all), but what is your point?

First you have to define the "Amataya". Is Thaksin an "Amataya?" I would say he is. So all groups support their own "Amataya". So let's throw that out. It's a distinction without a difference. Same with the Bangkok Business Elite. This is an ill defined "snarl" term defined to do nothing more than evoke emotion. Please define Bangkok Business Elite using specific organizations and we'll talk further. There is a large list of elite Bangkok businessmen who are pro Thaksin.

About the only real comment you can make is that support for the Dems means support for the military and the coup that ousted Thaksin. And yes, I think it is fair to say most people who support the Democrats would sign their name to supporting the military to this point. The military, watermelon soldiers excluded, have actually done a pretty good job of keeping the country together during exceedingly difficult times.

I can be proud to say I tentatively support the military. If they get out of line, I will withdraw my support, and I believe so will Abhisit.

Can you say that you are proud to support a convicted fugitive billionaire?

To be a member of am Amataya family means that you can trace your family descent from Rama 1 or possibly be a member of a family that has married into the Amataya. Before 1932 the Amataya ran the country on behalf of the highest authority and were therefore the de facto Thai Civil Service. Below the Amataya were the Nai who carried out the instructions of the Amataya and below the Nai were the Phrai (serfs) who are now referred to as the rural poor.

What has that got to do with anything? Well after the bloodless coup that brought about the Constitutional Monarchy the Amataya carried on as the de facto Civil Service as there was nobody else to do the job and they still run every branch of the Civil Service to the extent that nobody can get a senior position in the Civil Service unless he/she is Amataya. Thaksin is not and never could be Amataya so you're totally wrong in believing that he is.

You say that if the Military get out of line Abhisit would withdraw his support but you have it the wrong way around. Abhisit was installed by the Military and Amataya and if they withdraw their support Bye Bye Abhisit.

After the next election will you be proud to say that you support a politician (on the run) who is facing charges of crimes against humanity.

Edited December 2, 2010 by termad