Killing The Golden Goose

[ilyelol]

doesnt cost 20k to start a stand, cost about 3k

[cardholder]

you gave money away for a coffee shop, thats your fault.

Everyone knows coffee shops are the worse idea in the world, ESPECIALLY in thailand

Wrong - he gave money away as a loan to a family. I doubt he analysed the business purpose and made a 'banking' judgement based on SIL's business plan. He was asked to loan, he obliged.

Tonto21 gave a brilliant answer.

Incidentally, I gave away 700,000 Baht on a coffee shop so I hope they are not all crap!

[torasap]

First of all, I want to thank everybody for their contributions this far. Secondly, I want to make it clear (in reference to Tonto21s posting) that I totally refrain from letting this out on my wife. She is not the one who has put me in this situation, so I won't get tough on her for what just happened. It's important that I can keep her on my side by pointing out the cold facts if ever necessary - and only then. However, I will also make it very easy for her to say 'No' next time. You can be sure I will subtly use this case for whatever it's worth until the debts are paid. I'm aware that harsh confrontations with the SIL would be un-wise and primitive, because some way or other, justice will be made even if the debts are never actually paid. Maybe especially in the latter case. But it's important to play the cards right. Where there is no discipline, there cannot exist any luck, either.

There has probably not been any initial intention to scam me, and there might be a mix of bad timing and strong temptation involved in this. How the money has been spent is in the one sense none of my business as long as I get it back. If I get it back. If they had invested it, it would likely take long time anyway. Someone would therefore say that I should cut them some slack on the downpayment. If they had made a sincere attempt to start up a business, I would likely have waived the debts (partly or in full) in the case of bankruptcy. But that has been my little secret ;-) I do not cry over the lost 20K. If I couldn't afford to lose it, I would never have transferred it in the first place.

BUT I had hopes to see it growing, even though the business wasn't mine. I had been hoping for both of my SILs to be self-employed, and for the family to depend to a lesser extent on the monthly transfers from me. That could have been a win-win, but the chance was lost because I underestimated the other one's greed. If I had known that it would be wasted, I would have wasted it myself and gotten some fun out of it, if nothing else. They didn't even make a sincere attempt to improve their situation as previously stated.

Now, my SIL's subsequent proposal about financing a new project, which entails loaning them another 20K baht (at first 150K, actually, then 60K and now only 20K), may for somebody appear as a compliment on my wallet size. I, on the contrary, see it as a blatant insult towards my intelligence. How stupid do they think I am? And this just a couple of days after admitting that the initial 20K was spent on "making things go around". Do they really expect me to believe this won't happen again next time i transfer such amounts? This is what truly fuels my rage. Not towards my wife of course, but my SIL.

[sarahsbloke]

To answer your questions

1) How can people be so stupid to ruin things for themselves like this when they are in need of funds? Answer: A lot of Thai live on a day to day basis, "a bird in the hand" sort of thing.

2) What makes them think they can screw people over and still expect to have their trust? Is it a big- person-small-person-thing? Answer: No, it's a "you have I want" sort of thing and trust! They don't care about your trust.

3) Would you expect such behavior from a 36-year-old? Answer: This is a trick question…. Yes I would, anywhere in the world, buy especially in Thailand.

I can match this story.

My Thai lady landlord has a mortgage on the house I rent and a small income from Belgium, that's been getting smaller this year (exchange rate).

So she decided to put my rent up by 15% and my neighbors rent up by 15%

We both declined and have given our notice.

If she misses renting either property for 1 month in the next year, she will have less than she started with.

She is also advertising the houses for sale at 50% more than either is worth, and that's if any houses on our estate were selling.

Very short-sighted, financially disastrous behavior. But hey, TIT

PS

I'm with Tonto (puts on mask)

My wife scrounges off everyone, not just me, as do all her family.

My stock answer is, sorry the exchange rate is killing me, can you lend me enough to pay the leccy this month ......

Edited November 30, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[F1fanatic]

First of all, I want to thank everybody for their contributions this far. Secondly, I want to make it clear (in reference to Tonto21s posting) that I totally refrain from letting this out on my wife. She is not the one who has put me in this situation, so I won't get tough on her for what just happened. It's important that I can keep her on my side by pointing out the cold facts if ever necessary - and only then. However, I will also make it very easy for her to say 'No' next time. You can be sure I will subtly use this case for whatever it's worth until the debts are paid. I'm aware that harsh confrontations with the SIL would be un-wise and primitive, because some way or other, justice will be made even if the debts are never actually paid. Maybe especially in the latter case. But it's important to play the cards right. Where there is no discipline, there cannot exist any luck, either.

There has probably not been any initial intention to scam me, and there might be a mix of bad timing and strong temptation involved in this. How the money has been spent is in the one sense none of my business as long as I get it back. If I get it back. If they had invested it, it would likely take long time anyway. Someone would therefore say that I should cut them some slack on the downpayment. If they had made a sincere attempt to start up a business, I would likely have waived the debts (partly or in full) in the case of bankruptcy. But that has been my little secret ;-) I do not cry over the lost 20K. If I couldn't afford to lose it, I would never have transferred it in the first place.

BUT I had hopes to see it growing, even though the business wasn't mine. I had been hoping for both of my SILs to be self-employed, and for the family to depend to a lesser extent on the monthly transfers from me. That could have been a win-win, but the chance was lost because I underestimated the other one's greed. If I had known that it would be wasted, I would have wasted it myself and gotten some fun out of it, if nothing else. They didn't even make a sincere attempt to improve their situation as previously stated.

Now, my SIL's subsequent proposal about financing a new project, which entails loaning them another 20K baht (at first 150K, actually, then 60K and now only 20K), may for somebody appear as a compliment on my wallet size. I, on the contrary, see it as a blatant insult towards my intelligence. How stupid do they think I am? And this just a couple of days after admitting that the initial 20K was spent on "making things go around". Do they really expect me to believe this won't happen again next time i transfer such amounts? This is what truly fuels my rage. Not towards my wife of course, but my SIL.

Which neatly answers Torasaps question about why the SIL didn't ask for more in the first place - it starts off small and, if it works, the requested amounts get bigger....

To be blunt, un-educated Thais believe ALL farang are unbelievably stupid - experience has shown this to be true. We've all heard the multitude of horror stories.

Even the educated Thais realise that there are a lot of farang out there that easily give their money away. You have cottoned on early and will not make their mistakes. If only all farang were so sensible!

[torasap]

Very short-sighted, financially disastrous behavior. But hey, TIT

Spot on! +1

Edited November 30, 2010 by torasap

[evanson]

I agree, well moderated - this topic is worthy of discussion and whilst it will focus on some of the cultural aspects of Thais, it need not be a Thai-bashing thread. I think we alll know of examples where people (often Thais ) if they have 100 baht they spend 100 Baht, if they have 20,000 Baht they spend 20,000 Baht.

WRONG. SOME Thais will blow the lot, rich AND poor. SOME will save save save. I have had long associations of all different income groups within the Thai community and found them to be, SURPRISE!, exactly the same as farang.

Enough with the 'they'.

Edited November 30, 2010 by metisdead
Off topic insulting comment removed

[Moonrakers]

I think the point has evaded you evanson.

Edited November 30, 2010 by metisdead
Off topic insult removed.

[JusMe]

A lot of people in Thailand simply feel or consider nothing today for what might happen tomorrow. The concept of consequence is non existent in most and in those whom this concept does reside they are considered to 'worry too much', 'think too much', 'be too detailed' etc....

I'll completely agree with this. Not to change the subject, but I've recently noticed that most Thais are annually surprised by the rain and floods, as if it was a new experience. Don't worry about what's just happened because if you think it might happen again next year, you will 'worry too much', 'think too much.' And so the same thing happens next year, and everyone's surprised by it.

Forethought? Consequences? Doesn't matter if it's a national or individual matter. There isn't / aren't any.

[IanForbes]

Tonto21 got it right. As I've said many times, treat all offers of cash as a charity gift. If you get it back then fine. If you don't then it's also okay. Anything that doesn't kill or maim you should teach you a valuable lesson. I have helped out a Thai family for 7 years. I send them about 6000 baht each month and ask nothing in return. I get annoyed when I see the mother make stupid decisions, but that is her problem, not mine. I also helped the family set up a small business. It has helped the family financially, but that is their decision to make it work.

Unfortunately, the OP's sister in law killed the Golden Goose. I see it happen all the time. Some Thais learn from the experience, but many more don't and keep repeating the same mistakes. I would say the OP got of light and long before he was more deeply involved. it could easily been a half azzed business that KEPT losing money due to laziness or poor business practises..

[cardholder]

I think the point has evaded you evanson.

Yes - that Scooter song "Sounds above my head" seems to apply. Right over !!

Edited November 30, 2010 by metisdead
Off topic insult removed.

[torasap]

I would say the OP got of light and long before he was more deeply involved. it could easily been a half azzed business that KEPT losing money due to laziness or poor business practises..

Thank you for helping me seeing things in perspective, IanForbes :-)

[jdinasia]

I would say the OP got of light and long before he was more deeply involved. it could easily been a half azzed business that KEPT losing money due to laziness or poor business practises..

Thank you for helping me seeing things in perspective, IanForbes :-)

My only question is ... do you really see yourself as the "golden goose"?

[torasap]

My only question is ... do you really see yourself as the "golden goose"?

It's a figure of speech. I do of course not see myself as a stupid bird. But it's the same mechanisms behind. Killing the opportunity of long-term profit only for short-term pleasure, and harming others in the act. Same-same but different.

Do I make myself clear in this?

[bangkokrick]

I lent a similar sum to my sister in law to set up a small business. She said that she would return the money in 3 months, to which I agreed. 6 weeks later she turned up and repaid the full amount. Not al Thais have the same attitude as the OP's sister in law.

Cheers, Rick

[jdinasia]

My only question is ... do you really see yourself as the "golden goose"?

It's a figure of speech. I do of course not see myself as a stupid bird. But it's the same mechanisms behind. Killing the opportunity of long-term profit only for short-term pleasure, and harming others in the act. Same-same but different.

Do I make myself clear in this?

Yes, you do.

I certainly have never considered myself the "golden goose" for anybody. Just a different way of seeing things I guess

[jdinasia]

I lent a similar sum to my sister in law to set up a small business. She said that she would return the money in 3 months, to which I agreed. 6 weeks later she turned up and repaid the full amount. Not al Thais have the same attitude as the OP's sister in law.

Cheers, Rick

I borrowed a similar amount from my Thai BF (and paid him back when my new ATM card arrived .. the old one died an ignominous death

[bangkokrick]

I lent a similar sum to my sister in law to set up a small business. She said that she would return the money in 3 months, to which I agreed. 6 weeks later she turned up and repaid the full amount. Not al Thais have the same attitude as the OP's sister in law.

Cheers, Rick

I borrowed a similar amount from my Thai BF (and paid him back when my new ATM card arrived .. the old one died an ignominous death

Boyfriend????

Rick

[MiG16]

deleted a story that was way too long

[F1fanatic]

My only question is ... do you really see yourself as the "golden goose"?

It's a figure of speech. I do of course not see myself as a stupid bird. But it's the same mechanisms behind. Killing the opportunity of long-term profit only for short-term pleasure, and harming others in the act. Same-same but different.

Do I make myself clear in this?

You make yourself v clear. But, do you pay money to her parents every month? If so it is likely to make her family think you are a 'golden goose'.

[jdinasia]

I lent a similar sum to my sister in law to set up a small business. She said that she would return the money in 3 months, to which I agreed. 6 weeks later she turned up and repaid the full amount. Not al Thais have the same attitude as the OP's sister in law.

Cheers, Rick

I borrowed a similar amount from my Thai BF (and paid him back when my new ATM card arrived .. the old one died an ignominous death

Boyfriend????

Rick

Yes, of 7 years (tyvm)

[bangkokrick]

I lent a similar sum to my sister in law to set up a small business. She said that she would return the money in 3 months, to which I agreed. 6 weeks later she turned up and repaid the full amount. Not al Thais have the same attitude as the OP's sister in law.

Cheers, Rick

I borrowed a similar amount from my Thai BF (and paid him back when my new ATM card arrived .. the old one died an ignominous death

Boyfriend????

Rick

Yes, of 7 years (tyvm)

It was a joke JD. You wrote it as if your old boyfriend ignominously died.

Rick

[F1fanatic]

[original post deleted]

NAME AND SHAME!!

Edited November 30, 2010 by MiG16
removed original post that was already deleted from thread. sorry F1fanatic :D - miggy

[IanForbes]

Everyone is a bit different, and many of us change over time. I know I'm 180 degrees different than I was about 50 years ago. Some of us learn from our mistakes and some don't. For me it was an epiphany to change from being miserly to being open and generous. It's much nicer now and the karma I get in return seems to be working. Now I feel like I own the world and walk around free as a bird. It's a good state to be in.

[Tonto21]

Hey torasap, at the risk of my coming off to you a self appointed all knowing, everything about Thais, (I’m most certainly not) allow me to explain in a little more detail what I was trying to convey and the situation you now find yourself in. The fact that you feel I was calling you on pressuring your wife over her sister’s taking and spending this money. Sorry, a misunderstanding, I didn't think you were directly blaming your wife for what’s happened. You seem an intelligent bloke, of course you don’t blame her for her SIL actions…………But you might as well of in her eyes! Simply saying anything bad about her family is a direct attack on her.

This, I know sounds rude, it’s not meant to be, but you just don’t get it, do you? Why are these Thais so stupid? Why can’t they see I’m trying to help them? Talk about the hand that feeds, they just don’t think like us!……………………………….And so on!

Being a farang married to a Thai woman can be very rewarding, (home cooked Thai food for one thing) but can lead to major conflict due to cultural background, sad thing is Thais culture being so different to our own, we (the royal we) may never see a problem coming till it’s too late. She is Thai; she is not some girl from Manchester who’s going to confront you about calling her sister, not in this contects.

I’ve heard it said, by more than one person with long time experience with Thai wives, and girlfriends and believe it to be true; you can tell when all the respect has gone for you when your wife/gf still tells you she loves you but, doesn’t wash you cloths, cook, or do anything for you any more……No disrespect torasap, but wake up mate and smell the coffee, you are married to a Thai, she or her family are incapable of changing there cultural blueprint, as are you, but you on the other hand are more than capable of learning, (just a little) about what makes Thais tick, as said before it will help keep you sane!

Sorry, I know you wrote about your wife’s sister, so why am I going on about your wife? I don’t think you appreciate the pressure your wife is under to “deliver the bacon” so to speak! Trust me you have no “ace” not in Thailand. What you do have is an unhappy wife trying to save her face and that of her families. You are so right not to hand any more money over….But do it, (or not as this case may be) in the Thai way of doing it. Think Thai. Good luck.

[cardholder]

[original post deleted]

NAME AND SHAME!!

I have many stories about being cheated by a Farang but this thread is about how someone could 'waste' intended for business use without any consideration for the consequencies. That is, in my view, a Thai trait - it was not a pre-meditated attempt to defraud, just irresponsibility with money.

[Tonto21]

Hey torasap, at the risk of my coming off to you a self appointed all knowing, everything about Thais, (I’m most certainly not) allow me to explain in a little more detail what I was trying to convey and the situation you now find yourself in. The fact that you feel I was calling you on pressuring your wife over her sister’s taking and spending this money. Sorry, a misunderstanding, I was not referring to you directly blaming her for what’s happened. You seem an intelligent bloke, of course you don’t blame her for her SIL…………But you might as well in her eyes! Simply saying anything bad about her family is a direct attack on her.

This, I know sounds rude, it’s not meant to be but you just don’t get it, do you? Why are these Thais so stupid? Why can’t they see I’m trying to help them? Talk about the hand that feeds, they just don’t think like us!……………………………….And so on!

Being a farang married to a Thai woman can be very rewarding, (home cooked Thai food for one thing) but can lead to major conflict due to cultural background, sad thing is Thais culture being so different to our own, we (the royal we) may never see a problem coming till it’s too late. She is Thai; she is not some girl from Manchester who’s going to confront you about calling her sister.

I’ve heard it said, by more than one person with long time experience with Thai wives, and girlfriends and believe it to be true; you can tell when all the respect has gone for you when your wife/gf still tells you she loves you but, doesn’t wash you cloths or cook for you any more……No disrespect torasap, but wake up mate and smell the coffee, you are married to a Thai, she or her family are incapable of changing her cultural blueprint, you on the other hand are more than capable of learning, (just a little) about what makes Thais tick, as said before it will help keep you sane!

Sorry, I know you wrote about your wife’s sister, so why am I going on about your wife? I don’t think you appreciate the pressure your wife is under to “deliver the bacon” so to speak! Trust me you have no “ace” not in Thailand. What you do have is an unhappy wife trying to save her face and that of her families. You are so right not to hand any more money over….But do it, (or not as this case may be) in the Thai way of doing it. Think Thai. Good luck.

[F1fanatic]

Hey torasap, at the risk of my coming off to you a self appointed all knowing, everything about Thais, (I'm most certainly not) allow me to explain in a little more detail what I was trying to convey and the situation you now find yourself in. The fact that you feel I was calling you on pressuring your wife over her sister's taking and spending this money. Sorry, a misunderstanding, I was not referring to you directly blaming her for what's happened. You seem an intelligent bloke, of course you don't blame her for her SIL…………But you might as well in her eyes! Simply saying anything bad about her family is a direct attack on her.

This, I know sounds rude, it's not meant to be but you just don't get it, do you? Why are these Thais so stupid? Why can't they see I'm trying to help them? Talk about the hand that feeds, they just don't think like us!……………………………….And so on!

Being a farang married to a Thai woman can be very rewarding, (home cooked Thai food for one thing) but can lead to major conflict due to cultural background, sad thing is Thais culture being so different to our own, we (the royal we) may never see a problem coming till it's too late. She is Thai; she is not some girl from Manchester who's going to confront you about calling her sister.

I've heard it said, by more than one person with long time experience with Thai wives, and girlfriends and believe it to be true; you can tell when all the respect has gone for you when your wife/gf still tells you she loves you but, doesn't wash you cloths or cook for you any more……No disrespect torasap, but wake up mate and smell the coffee, you are married to a Thai, she or her family are incapable of changing her cultural blueprint, you on the other hand are more than capable of learning, (just a little) about what makes Thais tick, as said before it will help keep you sane!

Sorry, I know you wrote about your wife's sister, so why am I going on about your wife? I don't think you appreciate the pressure your wife is under to "deliver the bacon" so to speak! Trust me you have no "ace" not in Thailand. What you do have is an unhappy wife trying to save her face and that of her families. You are so right not to hand any more money over….But do it, (or not as this case may be) in the Thai way of doing it. Think Thai. Good luck.

Don't quite understand what you're saying.

Obviously Thai culture is different to the culture we know, but should the OP give more money to the SIL or not?

Yes, his wife is under pressure to deliver the bacon as you put it - but that on its own says everything - whether you realise it or not...

As for knowing when the "respect" has gone, the same thing applies when the realisation hits that money is not going to be as forthcoming as they thought....

Edited November 30, 2010 by F1fanatic

[jdinasia]

I borrowed a similar amount from my Thai BF (and paid him back when my new ATM card arrived .. the old one died an ignominous death

Boyfriend????

Rick

Yes, of 7 years (tyvm)

It was a joke JD. You wrote it as if your old boyfriend ignominously died.

Rick

LOL ... missed that (oversensitive from posting in the political threads I guess

[cardholder]

I am not going to copy Tonto21's post but I shall certainly endorse it.

It is getting close to the secret of survival in Thailand. Western emotions will swing from indescribeable love for their partner (and Thailand) to abject frustration (when you realise that after 3 years they still only listen to/understand less than 50% of what you say) to hatred of everything Thai from the appalling driving standards, building standards,inability to admit 'fault' for the smallest of errors and the inability to get the simplest of food orders right.

The ability to partly understand what is happening, and to deal with your position in the Thai food chain, is paramount to survival and enjoyment.

In this case, I agree that the transaction with the SIL is history and must be buried without trace. Your wife knows what has happened but she will not favour you in an argument against the family. I really like he get-out option of stalling for time and eventually coming up with a reason by you cannot find the money.

Plan B (which I have also seen used) - is to tell your wife that you will never lend her lazy, good for nothing family one more Satang and if she cannot understand then she can sling her hook. On top of that if she trys to bring any more pathetic attempts to extort money to you she can also p!ss off.

The latter may vent your spleen but would not auger well for the longevity of the relationship.

To answer F1's point it is invariably HOW something is handled irrespective of the result being the same.

Edited November 30, 2010 by cardholder