Silver Coins And Bullion

[heliox]

Hi All,

I was just wanting to put it out there and gauge what your thoughts were about jumping on the silver bandwagon which is starting to make the news lately. I see that Thailand is not into the silver scene as it is with gold and it would be difficult to unload it should the need arise but I see it as a way of getting rid of a few US dollars and holding what you have until such a time and transport it out to sell it.

Am sure some will say why not just buy gold or get a silver/gold account etc.I would rather have something physical and I think silver will give a bigger gain over the long run. Theres probably guys like me with a little bit of cash in $US with the bank making basically no interest, and in the back of their minds thinking the poo is going to hit the fan with the way the Fed Reserve are planning things & they just might end up making the dollar worth nothing.

Now I am not some business guy with heaps of financial knowledge or cash for that matter just a guy that's worked hard like most, earning dollars and wanting a safer way of keeping what I have rather than continually losing it's spending power due to inflation etc. 

So how does the average middled age guy protect his and his familys nest egg?Invest in silver now?

Cheers all  :jap:

http://www.cnbc.com//id/40415761

http://www.silverbullion.com.sg/

[Naam]

add 7% Singapore tax on goods and services!

[heliox]

add 7% Singapore tax on goods and services!

I think you can claim the GST back but there is a 1% admin fee.

3.         Goods and Services Tax ('GST')

3.1               All listed prices, with  exception of prices listed for export, are inclusive of Singapore  GST at the prevailing rate.

  3.2               When you complete a  purchase with Silver Bullion (GST Registration 200907537M) you will be  issued a Singapore Tax Invoice detailing the GST paid. If you are buying  silver as a GST-registered entity you may use this invoice to claim GST  back

. 3.3               Should you plan to take  the bullion out of Singapore,  a refundable deposit equivalent to the prevailing GST rate applicable  to the purchase price will be collected from you upon the delivery or  pick up of the bullion.

3.4               The deposit will be  fully refunded to you within seven business days of receipt of either of  the following:(a)     For customers, flying  from Changi  Airport, the  original custom endorsed (stamped) export permit. This can be easily  obtained by HCEP stands at departure terminal.(  For commercial non  Singaporean customers leaving by means other than Changi Airport,  a copy of your passport, showing the Singapore exit stamp for the  appropriate date, and if applicable, a copy of your boarding pass /  ferry ticket showing your name is required.

3.5              If we do not receive the  above documents within fifteen calendar days from the invoice date, it  is assumed that the goods have not been exported or declared when  exported. In this case, Silver Bullion will pay the GST due on the  invoice, and you hereby agree that the deposit will be forfeited.

3.6               Please note that Silver  Bullion charge a 1% or 130.00 SGD (whichever is higher) export  processing charge for the export paperwork. 

[gregb]

add 7% Singapore tax on goods and services!

And 7% Thai VAT when you bring them in, unless your plan is to smuggle 'em. Just don't get caught doing it. Otherwise, you will have purchased a nice little gift for some lucky customs official.

Yes, they do know what they are, and yes, you are required to pay VAT on them. No import duties though.

[Microwave]

I know that you're looking for physical silver, but there's a fund called the Central Fund of Canada (CEF) which holds 55% physical gold and 45% physical silver. For U.S. citizens, the capital gains tax is 15% instead of the normal 28%. CEF is up over 40% this year, combining the best of both worlds without having to bother with VAT etc. associated with holding the actual physical silver. CEF can be purchased through any brokerage account.

[heliox]

                                         bullionvault.com

Just looking at other SAFE ways to try an put abit of cash into silver.

A friend suggested the site bullionvault.com has anyone got good things to say about this method of buying gold/silver or bad for that matter?

I think there is no VAT sales tax due to the company being a member of the wholesale market's professional trade body, the London Bullion Market Association...need to check that out .Also I seem to remember China and India recieving tungston plated gold from these special bullion vaults that hold this special delivery large gold bars, so are these vaults audited and checked? 

This is all new to me and it's not physical silver, but not a bad thing to mix it up, eggs in one basket thing. I would really bum out having to pay the 7% Thai VAT bringing a large lump into the country. 

http://www.bullionva...AQs_whyBV.html 

Thanks in advance for your input  :jap:  

[patongster]

I have a nice 1 kilo Perth mint silver coin, year of the ox design. Purchased it around 18 months ago for $650 aud now it's worth smack on $1000 if I chose to sell it. Silver is tracking better then gold that's for sure, just need more of it.

[Microwave]

The silver etf (SLV) is also a good way to purchase physical silver without having to actually have it on hand. The Tocqueville Gold fund (TGLDX) holds about 8% in physical gold bullion with the remaining 92% in companies which mine gold, silver, palladium, copper, nickel, etc. This fund is up 50% ytd. (look at www.morningstar.com for this funds' growth over the past 10 years). I consider a mutual fund such as TGLDX, CEF and the SLV etf as being as safe as owning physical silver and gold.

I can't comment on bullionvault.com, I've never dealt with them. I agree that silver has more upside than gold, but it's also more volatile. When gold appreciates, silver appreciates more. The same correlation occurs when gold depreciates in value. Hold on for the ride and invest for the long term as precious metals are a very volatile sector.

I've been invested for 9 years in this lifetime bull market in gold, silver and other precious metals and I've seen a greater appreciation in the mining stocks than in the actual bullion. I've also seen silver outperform gold bullion. I'm not trying to steer you away from purchasing silver, I'm simply relating my 9 years of experience.

This precious metals bull market has MUCH further to go imho. Best wishes whatever you decide to do.

[greasemonkey]

What a coincidence. I've just been surfing the web looking at how to buy silver bullion, and how much to pay. Seems the cost of bars is way above spot price, although Im only looking at 100 grams.

Makes me nervous buying over the phone from a dealer, possibly my lack of experience, and there are not many dealers in rural mid wales, so I think I will have a word with my bank.

I see a positive future for silver, and at worst it will always be worth something, so not a great lot to loose with the amount I plan to spend.

Could have made a fortune with gold if I did a little more doing and a little less thinking, so dont want to make the same mistake with silver.

Regards.

Edit. Does anyone know if there is a set way of selling silver and other metals? Do you just take it to a dealer and they all give the same price per weight? Any one know how it works. Thanks.

Edited December 1, 2010 by greasemonkey

[jsflynn603]

Edit. Does anyone know if there is a set way of selling silver and other metals? Do you just take it to a dealer and they all give the same price per weight? Any one know how it works. Thanks.

I suggest looking at kitco.com and/or Apmex.com I would have no trouble, were I interested in sending them a hundred grand (oh how I wish I had it to send). They are both absolutely reliable.

Metals, be it silver, palladium, platinum, gold or rhodium can be purchased and can be shipped to you. With kitco and with Apmex the "sale-back" price is often very close to the "spot price." You can see the spot price which changes literally minute by minute at either site, and buying, let's say, a 1 oz gold Maple Leaf coin can vary literally from one minute to the other. As a matter of fact, if you put a 1 oz US gold eagle in your "shopping basket" and over the next ten minutes gold rises by $5, you will find that your "shopping basket" is locked out.

The margin (price above spot price (spot = the price for 1000 oz good delivery bars) can range from a few percent to 10 or more percent depending upon the product.

There are many problems with buying silver while in Thailand, as has been pointed out--if you must pay VAT taxes and/or transportation, these will eat up some of your "profit" (profit if silver rises above the margin). Further, there are capital gains tax. Uncle Sam (if you are American) does his level best to "own you." Last year, as a rider in the Health Act, there is an insidious requirement that any business entity that you deal with at a value at or above $600 over the year must take your data, and at the end of the year return a 1099-M (for miscellaneous income) to you and to the IRS.

Bullion coins, bullion, ingots, etc. are considered "collectables." Capital gains tax is 25%. I am confused about ETF (Exchange Traded Funds) like SLV or GLD and how capital gains play out there, and though someone pointed out that capital gains on CEF (Central Fundsof Canada) was 15% I'm not sure I believe that. Capital gains are based upon how long you hold any shares (as in CEF) but as of January 1st the % to be paid jumps. I believe that next year, even if held for one year that the Capital gains rate might be 25% (but I admit I may be wrong).

Perth Mint and CEF, along with the mentioned Toqueville Gold Fund (TGLDX) are (in my opinion only) good and reliable places to invest in the precious metals. CEF as mentioned is about half gold and half silver. The Perth Mint will store gold for you, and Perth is probably considered the most reliable in the world.

Why not GLD or SLV? Simple...many believe that much of the gold or silver is not really there. What is there are "derivatives" or promises to deliver the gold or silver. This is vastly different than having physical in a vault. JP Morgan and other "bullion" players often have Comex future positions where a mere 4 or 5% of margin (real money) is backing the derivatives. Therefore if the proverbial brown stuff hits the fan, it is possible that the whole house of cards will fall.

Scotia Bank (aka Scotia Mocatta), (the precious metals bank of Nova Scotia, Canada, which in the 70's I considered the premier precious metals bank in the world (there were probably some in Switzerland but I never managed to get there). At that time Scotia Bank's literature said: "we hold physical metal for every ounce sold." Today the wording is very, very different, it says something to the effect: "The assets of our bank is pledged to our holdings." Many believe that in fact Scotia Mocatta has less than 10% physical to represent what clients think is there on hold, sequestered for them. Again--it is thought that the metals are not there, only derivatives--or promises.

Sterling is (in my opinion) not a good thing to buy in any form. Why? Because it is 90% (and usually 10% Copper) and must be refined. Many dealers will pay you a flat 85% of spot plus a buck an ounce "refining fee."

If you do buy physical silver I recommend that you only buy pure silver, in a global recognized form. This includes American Eagles; Canadian Maple Leaf silver, Philharmonics (one ounce coins), but you will probably also do ok with Pandas, and Oz's Koalas. The margin in about 10% on all which means that silver must rise 10% before you even break even.

If you buy "bars" the premium will drop to as low as 2% above spot. But that can be tricky. If you buy 10oz, let's say Kitco bars from Kitco, and keep the paperwork, Kitco will most likely honor them and pay for them, but if you, for instance, purchased some pretty "no-name" 10oz bars, wherever you sell them might only offer 85% of spot + a refining fee.

There is one exception to all this. American 90%. This means dimes, quarters, halve dollars and silver dollars. These are 90% silver, but are "recognized." Other country silver coins are not as readily "recognized" for instance I believe that Canadian dimes, quarters, halfs were 800 fine or 80% and thus are not as desirable. But in Thailand, American 90 (old pre-1964 silver coins) will probably not be desired either.

The concept behind owning some American 90, or Oz pandas, is that in horrid times, silver is valuable. People say you cannot eat it--but I disagree. Even in horrid times, silver and gold are recognizable and often can be traded for food or survival.

There was an article recently that stated: "In Germany there are no safe deposit boxes left." Why? Because the Germans remember the horrid times of the '30's and the 40's when ONLY silver and gold held value. This is a visible sign that there is fear in Germany. There is not the same level of fear in the US because we never experienced the hyperinflation of the Weimar Republic, or the destruction of finance after WWII.

So holding some silver should be considered an "insurance policy," I think, not really an investment.

But you are wise in wondering about the US $. If I were to say that the dollar will lose 90% of its purchasing power over the next 5 years many will laugh But they will not laugh if I remind them that the four quarters that I had in my pocket when I was 14, today, at any coin or pawn shop will bring me $24 in greenbacks. That is a reduction of purchasing power since I was 14 of 94%. If this does happen over the next five years, it is likely that one ounce of silver will rise in value to a great extent.

About CEF: I believe that CEF is far more trustworthy than GLD or SLV but realize that you are paying a 7-10% premium related to the underlying metal. But if you sell and the premium is still 7-10% who cares? Then there are silver stock. There are not many pure silver stocks since most silver is a byproduct of (for instance) lead mining. Silver Wheaton (SLW) is the premier silver "stock" but it mines no silver. Instead it is a royalty company who pays x million $ in advance to a mining company, in exchange for the silver that comes out of the ground (the mining company keeps the lead and copper). I recommended SLW.T (the Canadian version) to friends when it was $2.88. Today it is $38.51 Canadian. Will it rise further--I think so but I am not a financial adviser (and advise you not to listen to whatever I say) and consider that since that low in November 2008, it has increased 13x. For it to do the same silver must rise to over $200 an ounce. Other pure silver plays are Silvercorp and Fortuna Silver Mines. But realize that silver is volatile, much more so than gold, and silver could drop $5 an ounce tomorrow and if that will keep you awake at night, keep away from silver investing.

Good luck and don't listen to anything that I have said.....you are warned.

[Microwave]

CEF is taxed at a rate of 15% because it's not classified as a "collectable". I have no idea why CEF isn't classified as a "collectable", but I won't complain...

SLW.T is an excellent play on silver, but the OP wants something "safe", and SLW/SLW.T is extremely volatile as it's an actual equity as opposed to a fund. Great return though, and the future certainly looks good imho. I like the idea of buying silver coins such as American Eagles, Canadian Maple Leaf silver, Pandas & Oz Koalas for actual physical holdings. CEF does pay a small dividend, so it's actually NOT the same as physical silver and gold. CEF's advantage is that one doesn't have to determine where and how to store their physical holdings as well as pay the VAT...

To the OP - I don't know if it's difficult to purchase physical silver in S'pore and bring it into Thailand, but I would guess that you'd have to pay at least the VAT on your import. If you want to purchase physical silver, go for the aforementioned coins if you can find them and also consider CEF via an online brokerage account. TGLDX is another great and safe option imho. jsflynn603 also has many excellent ideas to consider in his/her postie.

Edited December 2, 2010 by Microwave

[heliox]

Just came across this interesting article regarding the audit of the US gold reserves.

Is it possible the Fed Reserve could somehow lower the value of gold??

http://www.nzmint.com/bullion/news/us-gold-reserve-has-not-been-audited-1950

[a99az]

O' how sad, did you think that the doller was worth something. Take a look a good look at this, it might help you to understand just how much in dept the people of the US are. thezeitgeistmovement.com

[gregb]

About CEF: I believe that CEF is far more trustworthy than GLD or SLV but realize that you are paying a 7-10% premium related to the underlying metal. But if you sell and the premium is still 7-10% who cares?

I am far from an expert on this, but as a novice I would advise staying away from closed end funds like CEF. The only reason they are around is because of the artificial tax incentives created by the US.

As I understand it (and I'm sure a more knowledgeable member will jump in to deride my poor understanding if I'm not), on a closed end fund you are purchasing stock in the fund. This is only loosely tied to the value of the bullion they hold. This allows it to qualify for lower capital gains in the US, but also puts you at more risk. You see, every so often the board of directors gets together and decides to issue more stock to meet demand. The kicker is, when they do that, and buy more PM's with the proceeds, that 7% or so premium you paid to buy the "stock" gets reset back to 0. Then, the price will slowly climb back above the PM value again as demand increases, until the board decides to do another share offering and purchase more PMs.

So that premium you pay on a closed end fund is highly volatile. Depends entirely on when you get in, and when the board decides to issue new shares.

Contrast this with an ETF like SLV, which is constantly balancing its portfolio to keep the share price exactly in line with the underlying price of the metal. If they get a big surge of investment, they buy more bullion immediately. If people start selling, they sell. It is like a closed end fund, but acting in near real time so the premium never builds. Both an ETF and a closed end fund will track the metal price over the long term, but you're taking a bigger risk on premiums if you go the closed end route. Of course, if you are in the US you may get that back by lower capital gains taxes.

In short, there are risks no matter what you do. The best idea for wealth preservation is simply to buy the physical metal and sit on it. That way, you know exactly what you've got. There are no trust issues with anyone. You may take a hit with VAT on silver in Thailand, but you have to offset that against how you feel it will perform relative to gold. There is no VAT on gold.

[heliox]

O' how sad, did you think that the doller was worth something. Take a look a good look at this, it might help you to understand just how much in dept the people of the US are. thezeitgeistmovement.com

Saw the VDO you refer to a few years ago and I think most people that have answered on this thread all sort of know the dollar is on a spiral downwards due to debt owed to the Fed Reserve, so that is why I started the thread asking members what their views were on hedging I think is the correct word  against the dollar and if silver/gold is the way and how to do it.

There has been some good advice given (even if I don't listen to what he said) 555

It's all a learning curve for me.

  :jap:

[midas]

Too big too fail banks like JPM and HSBC have been artificially manipulating the price of silver and gold, scamming the tax payer, and ultimately will lead to the biggest financial disaster in the history of human financial civilization. The run on the comex has begun. The COMEX offered dollars instead of physical metal on December 1st silver deliveries. GAME OVER.

JP Morgan Silver Manipulation Explained

[midas]

it appears that among the tens of thousands of viewers who have subsequently gone to the goldsilvergold.com website, there have been quite a few conversions. So much so that as of today, the company is not taking any orders and is sold out of all products . The company goes on to say that it will not be accepting any new orders until December 6. ihope that the profits JPM will make in its copper market manipulation will be sufficient to offset the ever increasing pain it will experience courtesy of what is gearing up to be a massive margin call.

" We are current SOLD OUT of products. Due to intense buying this AM (December 4, 2010) we will NOT be accepting ANY new orders until Dec 6, 2010 "

http://silvergoldsilver.com/

[elbicho]

I have 2 10 oz. silver bars I would be willing to part with at spot. I am in Chiangmai now.

[SURREYCOUPLE]

I have 2 10 oz. silver bars I would be willing to part with at spot. I am in Chiangmai now.

In Bangkok until 16th, would take them off you for sure

[JimsKnight]

I've got a couple of 1 oz silver coins I'm willing to do a sale on, if the price is right that is

Silver coins aren't widely available in Thailand....

[heliox]

I have 2 10 oz. silver bars I would be willing to part with at spot. I am in Chiangmai now.

Hi.I am keen to buy them, can pick up.Drop me a PM with your number and we will get it organized.

[patongster]

My silver coin.

[opac]

Hi everyone, this will be my first post and I'm glad I found this forum before moving to Thailand this summer... I've just recently been waken up from our hypnotized society by reading and learning from independent media and books. Namely authors such as Peter Schiff, Robert Kiyosaki, Mike Maloney, Marc Faber, Ron Paul, Gerald Celente. And of those independent media such as Max Keiser's RTnews and Alex Jones' Infowar.

On the financial part, it just shocked me of how stupid was I that I spent most of my earning and saving throughout the years on toys and nonsense gadgets... It was just last year that I turned all my small saving into gold bullions and now I'm stacking silver on every dollars earned.

Now here's the challenge... having a solid plan to move to Thailand this summer. And I'm carrying (2) of one troy ounce gold bars, (7) of ten troy ounce silver bars, (10) one ounce Canadian maple silver rounds, (20) one ounce silver bars... total of 100 ozt silver with me as personal saving. So I really want to get pass custom without any penalty or fees or at least getting it minimized. Any suggestions?

I'm thinking of ISO 4217 (constituted by UN through international trade treaty) which states that gold bullion with purity of 99.99 and silver bullion with purity of .999 can be regarded as currency XAU and XAG. And that in Thai's custom currency exchange law it states that the value to carry in must not exceed 20,000 USD, so I believe this legal ground can be argued over taxing.

So my scenario goes...

Custom Guy: "Sir, you carry precious metals into the kingdom and it subjects to charge 7% VAT over the market value."

Me: "Um no? I'm not carrying any commodity here. I just have my currency in my wallet which is my own saving. Here I got 100 XAG and 2 XAU."

Custom Guy: "....."

Me: "Well I don't know if you have ever been to Switzerland. But if you go there and withdraw money from the bank this currency is what you can get from over the counter."

Custom Guy: ".............."

Me: "Alright, if this is 10,000 USD bill, will you charge me 7% VAT?.... No? why? Oh that's right USD is a currency. Well that's too bad XAG and XAU are currency too. So if you're not gonna honor that international trade treaty rules, I suppose THB is not going to be accepted in the world market as well."

just a thought....

[gregb]

Now here's the challenge... having a solid plan to move to Thailand this summer. And I'm carrying (2) of one troy ounce gold bars, (7) of ten troy ounce silver bars, (10) one ounce Canadian maple silver rounds, (20) one ounce silver bars... total of 100 ozt silver with me as personal saving. So I really want to get pass custom without any penalty or fees or at least getting it minimized. Any suggestions?

You will pay nothing for importing the gold, and 7% for importing the silver. You can try all the games you want and think you're clever.

Unfortunately, it is coded quite clearly in the customs handbook. Silver, whether bullion or coins with a face value, has 0% duty and 7% VAT. End of story. Paper money does not have this, because it isn't specified as having it in the regulations.

So, are you going to pay your 7% on the silver, or are you going to try and smuggle it in? The choice is yours, but your fancy word games are meaningless. Don't waste your breath.

[Chunky1]

"CEF is taxed at a rate of 15% because it's not classified as a "collectable". I have no idea why CEF isn't classified as a "collectable", but I won't complain..."

because they do not loan out or allow delivery of their pm's.

[Naam]

Now here's the challenge... having a solid plan to move to Thailand this summer. And I'm carrying (2) of one troy ounce gold bars, (7) of ten troy ounce silver bars, (10) one ounce Canadian maple silver rounds, (20) one ounce silver bars... total of 100 ozt silver with me as personal saving. So I really want to get pass custom without any penalty or fees or at least getting it minimized. Any suggestions?

You will pay nothing for importing the gold....

...and GregB will reimburse you for all your losses because his advice is <deleted> wrong!

[opac]

Now here's the challenge... having a solid plan to move to Thailand this summer. And I'm carrying (2) of one troy ounce gold bars, (7) of ten troy ounce silver bars, (10) one ounce Canadian maple silver rounds, (20) one ounce silver bars... total of 100 ozt silver with me as personal saving. So I really want to get pass custom without any penalty or fees or at least getting it minimized. Any suggestions?

You will pay nothing for importing the gold, and 7% for importing the silver. You can try all the games you want and think you're clever.

Unfortunately, it is coded quite clearly in the customs handbook. Silver, whether bullion or coins with a face value, has 0% duty and 7% VAT. End of story. Paper money does not have this, because it isn't specified as having it in the regulations.

So, are you going to pay your 7% on the silver, or are you going to try and smuggle it in? The choice is yours, but your fancy word games are meaningless. Don't waste your breath.

Whoa, uber fast response in this forum. And hey, thanks a bunch for the enlightenment.... dang, that is so true from what I heard. The customs ain't got no humor to settle things logically, they only look for profit and advantage. I suppose it won't hurt much playing by the rule once silver explodes to over 1:10 ratio. Go Go $500 silver baby!!

[JimsKnight]

There's few silver merchants in Bangkok.

I took the silver I have into one of the goldshops for advice and he suggested that the Post Office (of all places) is a place you can possibly take silver coins for whole-sale buying and selling...

[heliox]

Hi everyone, this will be my first post and I'm glad I found this forum before moving to Thailand this summer... I've just recently been waken up from our hypnotized society by reading and learning from independent media and books. Namely authors such as Peter Schiff, Robert Kiyosaki, Mike Maloney, Marc Faber, Ron Paul, Gerald Celente. And of those independent media such as Max Keiser's  RTnews and Alex Jones' Infowar.

On the financial part, it just shocked me of how stupid was I that I spent most of my earning and saving throughout the years on toys and nonsense gadgets... It was just last year that I turned all my small saving into gold bullions and now I'm stacking silver on every dollars earned.

Now here's the challenge... having a solid plan to move to Thailand this summer. And I'm carrying (2) of one troy ounce gold bars, (7) of ten troy ounce silver bars, (10) one ounce Canadian maple silver rounds, (20) one ounce silver bars... total of 100 ozt silver with me as personal saving. So I really want to get pass custom without any penalty or fees or at least getting it minimized. Any suggestions?

I'm thinking of ISO 4217 (constituted by UN through international trade treaty) which states that gold bullion with purity of 99.99 and silver bullion with purity of .999 can be regarded as currency XAU and XAG. And that in Thai's custom currency exchange law it states that the value to carry in must not exceed 20,000 USD, so I believe this legal ground can be argued over taxing.

So my scenario goes...

Custom Guy: "Sir, you carry precious metals into the kingdom and it subjects to charge 7% VAT over the market value."

Me:                  "Um no? I'm not carrying any commodity here. I just have my currency in my wallet which is my own saving. Here I got 100 XAG and 2 XAU."

Custom Guy: "....."

Me:                  "Well I don't know if you have ever been to Switzerland. But if you go there and withdraw money from the bank this currency is what you can get from over the counter."

Custom Guy: ".............."

Me:                  "Alright, if this is 10,000 USD bill, will you charge me 7% VAT?.... No? why? Oh that's right USD is a currency. Well that's too bad XAG and XAU are currency too. So if you're not gonna                   honor that international trade treaty rules, I suppose THB is not going to be accepted in the world market as well."

just a thought....

Good Luck.

[Chunky1]

Why not just buy the etf SIL for some exposure to silver? it seems impractical to horde it physically. fwiw, i have about 40 oz of silver in physical (for bribing border patrols in the future).