Possible Manual Clutch Problem ?

[coconut]

Toyota Vigo 4x4, 124000Km. Clutch and clutch pedal appear to be working normally. No unusual noises in normal driving on level/flat roads.

However, when engaging first gear on a hill or steep grade, there is a momentary, perhaps a 1 second noise, when releasing the clutch pedal. This noise does not continue when shifting into 2,3 or 4th gear. This started about one week ago.

Any ideas as to what might be causing this problem?

If this is a possible major clutch problem, what would be the best solution?

From what I have read on this forum, it would appear that one should put in a new Clutch Plate, Pressure Plate, Throwout Bearing, and a new Pilot Bearing on the Flywheel. This possibly keeps the Toyota mechanics from attempting to resurface the flywheel and/or Pressure Plate, which could cause future problems and another trip to the Toyota dealer.

Can this be done in one day at a Toyota dealer? Would anyone, perhaps who has had this work done before, have an idea of the total cost in parts and labor?

Any suggestions,ideas appreciated.

[garyh]

Some Nissans have a similar fault due to a problem in the fancy dual mass clutch don't know if Toyota use the same though.

[Pib]

You didn't specify the type of noise, but if it's a squeal type noise It's probably your throwout bearing, but it could be the pilot bearing,pressure plate, or clutch.

With it only happening uphill it probably has something to do with the slightly additional load and tilt which tends to make the throw-out bearing more of the prime suspect in my opinion. Not sure what type of driving environment you are usually in, but if it a lot of stop and go, heavy traffic then the throw-out bearing is usually the first thing to fail in a clutch assembly. But if going into to replace the bearing, be sure to also replace the pilot bearing and probably the clutch plate...check the plate springs closely and ensure the surface is still in good shape if not replacing....but with a 124K on it I expect the plate surface is wearing thin. Have the pressure plate checked closely for any broken springs and resurfaced if necessary...but you may just want to play it safe and replace it along with the clutch plate, throw-out bearing and pilot bearing. A 124K is lot distance for several of the manual clutch assembly components...you've done good to get this far with no clutch problems/noises.

Edited December 5, 2010 by Pib

[Lickey]

Coconut, when you engage 1st gear, doyou stop to do this? or on the move? it could be that the sychro hubs are turing so fast in the gearbox that they are complaining a bit, so get you gearbox oil level checked,

If you think its a clutch problem, check thisyourself,, clutch pedal down, heal and toe it up to about 3.500rpm, select 3rd gear and let the clutch out quickly, if engine stalls in .5 of a second, clutch is good, if it runs on for 5/6 seconds then the clutch has had it,,,

You say it drives fine and quiet on the flat roads, a thrust bearing would scream everytime you touched the clutch pedal, so thats not the problem, the spigot shaft bearing,, in the centre of the flywheel, its a small possibillty, this bearing surports the input shaft to the gearbox, when the clutch is depressed, this shaft stops spinning, again, if there is a problem with this bearing, all gears would be dificult,

Perhaps getting the GBox oil checked or changed, try starting off in 1st on a hill, see if this helps things,

[Pib]

My experience over the years with several of my vehicles where the throw-out bearing began to fail is it can squeal "only under certain clutching conditions" in the early stages of the bearings failure....as the bearing continues to fail over the coming weeks/months it's much easier to make it squeal under most any clutching action. But I did have one occurance where one day when the bearing started making noise when pulling away in 1st gear that I could fairly easily make it squeal under other conditions. Only FYI from my personal experience over the years.

[mdechgan]

Its the throw out bearing.

But at 120,000km I suggest you seriously consider getting an entire clutch job.

clutch, pressure plate, bearings should run you about 2-3,000 baht for the parts.

Labor about 1,000 baht.

However the dealer will make you change many fluids, seals and other extras so it could be around 2-3,000 baht extra.

Total 5,000 baht if lucky, but look more towards 7,000 baht.

I don't think you have to go to a dealer to get a clutch change.

Any reputable shop can change the clutch. Not sure if A.C.T or B quick or cockpit does clutches though.

Edited December 6, 2010 by mdechgan

[coconut]

Thank for the reply's.

Pib, Could say the clutch noise is rather like a squeal. Never had any heavy traffic, stop & go type driving. Mostly long distance travel & off-road driving. Interesting that you say I have been lucky to have driven 124K without a manual clutch problem.

Licky, To test this noise problem, went half way up a hill, stopped, than engaged 1st gear. Did this 4 times,to insure that the noise and duration of the noise, was the same.

Before I wrote the OP, did check the transmission oil & looked for any sign of an oil leak into the clutch area.Everything looked OK.

Honestly, don't know if I have the gonads to rev up to 3500RPM, select 3rd gear & release the clutch pedal. Have a mental image of clutch parts coming through the truck floor. Will have to think about that.

Would it be better to go to an authorized Toyota dealer or find a good truck repair shop and bring authentic Toyota clutch parts?

[coconut]

Transam, What if the clutch does not slip, and the engine suddenly stops. Would that sudden engine stoppage, perhaps, do some damage to the engine, clutch or transmission?

[Pib]

Thank for the reply's.

Pib, Could say the clutch noise is rather like a squeal. Never had any heavy traffic, stop & go type driving. Mostly long distance travel & off-road driving. Interesting that you say I have been lucky to have driven 124K without a manual clutch problem.

A squeal sound is usually caused by dry metal to dry metal contact. When the throw-out bearing fails it usually due to rusting and/or the ball bearing lubricant drying up which usually causes a squeal sound. The clutch plate getting wore down to the rivets would also cause the metal rivets to rub against the flywheel and/or pressure plate. Grease behind pilot bearing drying up could also cause a squeal. But in my person experience with my vehicles over the years I could not definitely say from visual inspection that a pilot bearing was causing a problem but I could definitely see that the throw-out bearing or clutch plate was worn way down to rivets.

Since you say most of your driving is "not" stop and go, to me that would indicate the clutch plate is probably still good unless there is a spring broken because clutch plates driven under those conditions aand not being engaged and released as much as stop and go driving significantly lowers the wear rate of the clutch plate material. But it just seems technology still hasn't advanced as far for throw-out bearings. You problem could be several things. You might just want to go to the Toyota place to get a price estimate of what would it cost to do clutch work with separate parts pricing. Since fully serving/repairing a clutch assembly pretty much requires disassembling the whole clutch assembly, whether you change just one thing or all the things, it's the "parts" cost that going to be the incremental cost driver. That is, say 2000 Baht to check the clutch which includes removal, disassembly, and reinstallation...add another 1000 Baht for a throwout bearing, another 200 Baht for pilot bearings, another 1000 Baht for a clutch plate, etc. I don't have a clue what the actually individual costs may be...this was just for example. But I do know personally I would only take my Toyota Fortuner to the Toyota dealership which is close to me as they do good work, have the right tools, you can watch them do the work from the customer window lounge, Toyota parts will be used, and their prices are only a little (just a little) more than Somchai's garage.

But with all this talk on it's probably the clutch, it may be something else in the drive train. Some times long distance/forum troubleshooting is hard without being there to touch, hear, see, smell, etc., the problem. Good luck.

.

[MoonRiverOasis]

I have nothing of value to add, but I'd just like to nominate this thread as being the most helpful, informational (and civil) thread on the Motoring Forums (and perhaps all of TV), ever

Edited December 6, 2010 by MoonRiverOasis

[Pib]

I've learned over the years that vehicles can seemly break in a million different ways and the intermittent problems are the ones that can drive you up the wall in trying to find the problem.

[coconut]

As was suggested, as there is more than 124K on the Vigo, will have a new clutch kit installed. My problem is, should I have the flywheel resurfaced, if necessary, and risk the problem Riley's Life, a Forum Member, had last December or just have a new flywheel installed.

The problem is, that all parts EXCEPT the flywheel are in stock. So, if when the clutch comes out and a new flywheel is needed, have to wait until it arrives after being ordered. That takes 4-5 days.

If I order one before the clutch repair and the original flywheel is in good condition, will still have to pay for the unneeded flywheel because I ordered it. Seems no one,at this dealership has ever needed a new flywheel.

Can not really be without transportation for 4-5 days, so guess will have to order one and hang the original flywheel on the garage wall.

The Toyota dealer's head mechanic said it will only take 3-4 hours to uninstall, repair, install the clutch. The question was asked 2 times, so no mistake. Can this be possible?? The labor cost for this work is only Baht 840. Seems unbelievable to me. Was also told they do not drain the transmission gear oil when they move it.

Cost of the Toyota parts: Clutch Disk Baht 3500, Pressure Plate Baht 3630, Pilot Bearing Baht 160, Throwout Bearing Baht 1630 and the Flywheel Baht 7500. With VAT and labor Total Cost Baht 18,409. This is in writing.

A question: How far from the floor should a clutch pedal be before engaging and disengaging the gears, if it is working correctly??

Any comments, suggestions appreciated.

[transam]

What was the outcome .?

[Pib]

The flywheel has to be pretty scored up to need replacing. If it is bad and not replaced it will wear out your new clutch in short order. Would have to see it to advise. The trans oil has nothing to do with the clutch. If they are auto ' engineers ' they will advise if the flywheel is naff. If they say it is OK then forget it.

Definitely agree. I've changed around 3 clutch assemblies (including my 1984 Firebird) on my own vehicles over my decades and helped my friends with more...and just seen more under repair. Even with cars/light trucks that had well over 100,000 miles/160,000 kilometers none of them required a flywheel change. But the flywheel condition can indeed be bad if a lot of hard driving was done, broken disc/loose parts caused damage to the flywheel. The labor cost does seem cheap, but the shop does have all the lifts, tools, and experience to make it a easy and quick job barring unforeseen problems. Like you said, the transmission oil has nothing to do with the clutch, but if I was the OP I would get it changed while the car is undergoing the repair...would only take the shop a few minutes to drain and refill.

I too am interested in the OP's outcome. Cheers and Welcome to 2011.

[Pib]

A question: How far from the floor should a clutch pedal be before engaging and disengaging the gears, if it is working correctly??

Any comments, suggestions appreciated.

That can vary by manufacturer/clutch design but usually it should start engaging/be fully engaged approx one-half to one inch from the top and be completely disengaged/start reengaging several inches from the floor. Your flywheel condition won't have any real impact on this clutch play adjustment other than maybe causing more or less slip or grabbing if the flywheel is in bad condition. Now, your clutch disc and pressure plate or clutch pedal linkage components can definitely make a difference in clutch play/travel. Good luck.

Oh yea, any outcome yet as transam asked about?

[coconut]

Pip, Transam. For the past 7 weeks, took a chance, and have been traveling only on flat roads, so no real problems or weird noise.

Few days ago had appointment at a Toyota Dealer. A very interesting day.

From 08:30 to about 10:45, they attempted to remove the clutch/transmission. The head mechanic said some bearing had broke, so very difficult to remove. Said this had never happened before and normally takes about 45 minutes.

Watched for about one hour, as three men pushed, pulled, shook and used small to large crowbars in an attempt to remove the clutch/transmission by force. Finally had to walk outside. Truthfully, was concerned a few times that the truck would fall off the four arm vehicle lift. Thought for sure something had to be damaged. Was really worried about the Transmission Input Shaft.

After removal, the Pilot Bearing and the Throwout Bearing looked OK. The flywheel was in good shape, no deep scratches or gouges. The only damaged part was the center flange? area of the Clutch Disk. It was very loose with fine hairline cracks from the center to the outside.

If this was caused by the violent removal of the clutch/transmission or if this was the cause of the noises I was hearing while engaging the clutch on hills and while attempting to go over small hills and ruts/holes off-road, or the cause of the difficulty to remove the clutch/transmission, really have no idea.

Attaching a few photos of the Clutch Disk. Might help to better understand my writing.

The Transmission Input Shaft appears OK and not loose. Just hope there are no problems later. Have driven about 400 Km and everything appears normal.

Can only hope that if anything happens it will be during the three month guarantee period.

Would appreciate your thoughts on what might have caused the damage to the Clutch Disk Center.

[transam]

Pip, Transam. For the past 7 weeks, took a chance, and have been traveling only on flat roads, so no real problems or weird noise.

Few days ago had appointment at a Toyota Dealer. A very interesting day.

From 08:30 to about 10:45, they attempted to remove the clutch/transmission. The head mechanic said some bearing had broke, so very difficult to remove. Said this had never happened before and normally takes about 45 minutes.

Watched for about one hour, as three men pushed, pulled, shook and used small to large crowbars in an attempt to remove the clutch/transmission by force. Finally had to walk outside. Truthfully, was concerned a few times that the truck would fall off the four arm vehicle lift. Thought for sure something had to be damaged. Was really worried about the Transmission Input Shaft.

After removal, the Pilot Bearing and the Throwout Bearing looked OK. The flywheel was in good shape, no deep scratches or gouges. The only damaged part was the center flange? area of the Clutch Disk. It was very loose with fine hairline cracks from the center to the outside.

If this was caused by the violent removal of the clutch/transmission or if this was the cause of the noises I was hearing while engaging the clutch on hills and while attempting to go over small hills and ruts/holes off-road, or the cause of the difficulty to remove the clutch/transmission, really have no idea.

Attaching a few photos of the Clutch Disk. Might help to better understand my writing.

The Transmission Input Shaft appears OK and not loose. Just hope there are no problems later. Have driven about 400 Km and everything appears normal.

Can only hope that if anything happens it will be during the three month guarantee period.

Would appreciate your thoughts on what might have caused the damage to the Clutch Disk Center.

Wow, looks like thats your probem all right. Stress fractures, but no sign of excessive heat. Would suggest there has been distortion cos of the fractures and thats why probs removing the box. At least we can see a problem and the new plate solves it. The problem l see is power stress, bit like launching a drag race car and putting excesive load on stuff, but it could just be down to a poor or faulty plate, which l think. Nice it's solved. Keep us up to date if it reappears, which l doubt.

PS.Thanks for the update, might help others in the future.

Edited January 27, 2011 by transam

[Lickey]

Coconut, are those pics without cleaning the plate of after? if without cleaning, then the cracks would show some kind of dust on them, by the way, all these plales do is cover the cush drive, and should not be subject to tourque atall, The inner spline transmits torque via levers to the cush drive springs, so i think your suspicions are right, it has been known that quik fit centers in the UK remoce all bolts and just loosen a couple, thus having to shake the gearbox violently and cracking that cover plate,

Like i said before, heel and toe it, if the engine stops in0.5 sec, there is nothing wrong with the clutch, they do this out of your view, but they have to find something to show you and make money.

Do you have the spigot/input shaft bearing with you? if so, you can pry off the seals, clean with diesel or petrol, and inspect the inner surfaces, any pitting atall would point to a noise.

If it were my truck, i would want the friction plate put back in, even with the cracks, looks like another 50,000ks wear left in it..

Cheers, Lickey..

[Lickey]

A few more thoughts have just sprung to mind, now if the spigot shaft and clutch centre was rusted, [in your pics it wasnt] they should release all bolts 1 turn, then press the clutch pedal, this pushes the box away from the clutch, another question, were they using a transmission jack or man handling the box?

Another thing i would be concerned about is the use of crow bars, these will cause indents on the alloy flywheel housing and the bell housing of the clutch, did they clean of these indentations ? if not, the gearbox might shake loose in a week or so, get the bolts re-torqued soon.

Just an engineers point of view, Lickey..

[transam]

Coconut, are those pics without cleaning the plate of after? if without cleaning, then the cracks would show some kind of dust on them, by the way, all these plales do is cover the cush drive, and should not be subject to tourque atall, The inner spline transmits torque via levers to the cush drive springs, so i think your suspicions are right, it has been known that quik fit centers in the UK remoce all bolts and just loosen a couple, thus having to shake the gearbox violently and cracking that cover plate,

Like i said before, heel and toe it, if the engine stops in0.5 sec, there is nothing wrong with the clutch, they do this out of your view, but they have to find something to show you and make money.

Do you have the spigot/input shaft bearing with you? if so, you can pry off the seals, clean with diesel or petrol, and inspect the inner surfaces, any pitting atall would point to a noise.

If it were my truck, i would want the friction plate put back in, even with the cracks, looks like another 50,000ks wear left in it..

Cheers, Lickey..

Have a closer look where the cracks emanate ( start ).

The pilot bearing is in the photo.

To advise someone to put that plate back is very bad advise and fool hardy. If those cracks progress and the thing disintegrates, the repair bill will/could be horrendous just for the sake of a few $ for a new ''peace of mind'' plate.

[Lickey]

Yes, i can see very well where the cracks start,,, that is what they do, pull the box back a little, shake it like hell, this cracks the cover, hence they sell you a new plate,,

And I said IF it was MY truck, i would put the plate back in !!!!!!!! up to others what they would do,

The pilot/spigot bearing is in the photo, whats that supposed to mean?? has it been checked for roughness?

Coconuts pics are very clear, all the cush-drive springs are intact, the center drive is clean, if the cush drive relied on the cover plate, surely the cracks would be more open and show signs of chaffing ect?but no signs atall, as Coconut suggested, he wondered if the cracking was caused by the ecessive shaking and the use of crowbars caused the cracks, in my mind, Yes!! All that cover does is cover the levers that operate the cush drive, it wiill be fine without this cover, its there to keep the dust out ect..

If you are having problems reading and understanding technical posts, then just stick to V8 drag racing,

Thankyou..

[transam]

Yes, i can see very well where the cracks start,,, that is what they do, pull the box back a little, shake it like hell, this cracks the cover, hence they sell you a new plate,,

And I said IF it was MY truck, i would put the plate back in !!!!!!!! up to others what they would do,

The pilot/spigot bearing is in the photo, whats that supposed to mean?? has it been checked for roughness?

Coconuts pics are very clear, all the cush-drive springs are intact, the center drive is clean, if the cush drive relied on the cover plate, surely the cracks would be more open and show signs of chaffing ect?but no signs atall, as Coconut suggested, he wondered if the cracking was caused by the ecessive shaking and the use of crowbars caused the cracks, in my mind, Yes!! All that cover does is cover the levers that operate the cush drive, it wiill be fine without this cover, its there to keep the dust out ect..

If you are having problems reading and understanding technical posts, then just stick to V8 drag racing,

Thankyou..

If your telling me that those dozens of hair line cracks are to do with box removal then the word daft comes to mind.

If the OP's problem has been solved by the simple replacement of this unhappy item/centre plate, then it was obviously the problem ( I hope ). You suggest re-installing the problem if it were your ride. God help us.

As for drag racing, l did have at one time run a twin plate clutch and l KNEW how to look for a problem.

[Lickey]

So im waiting for you to explain how the cracks appeared, dont tell me it was power stress, thats daft!!

And then explain to readers why the box was difficult to remove,,

Twin plate clutches in a drag racer, i seem to remember you telling me theres a lot of difference between a comercial auto trans and a car trans, really? and when you posted anybody have probs with auto trans, no replies, not even boiling brake fluid or warped discs or overheating leaving in drive at the lights ect,

When you can read the lines rather than in-between them, you might learn something,

Perhaps Cocnuts Toyota will start another world record breaking re-call, would i have a Toyota,? No way!!

[transam]

So im waiting for you to explain how the cracks appeared, dont tell me it was power stress, thats daft!!

And then explain to readers why the box was difficult to remove,,

Twin plate clutches in a drag racer, i seem to remember you telling me theres a lot of difference between a comercial auto trans and a car trans, really? and when you posted anybody have probs with auto trans, no replies, not even boiling brake fluid or warped discs or overheating leaving in drive at the lights ect,

When you can read the lines rather than in-between them, you might learn something,

Perhaps Cocnuts Toyota will start another world record breaking re-call, would i have a Toyota,? No way!!

Mr. ' engineer ', let me explain, just for you.Problems removing a gear box. Suspect, mainshaft splines hooked up, ( resistance) inside the splines of the centre plate, why, perhaps distortion. Removal, access the pressure plate (cover) bolts via the underside of the bell housing, slacken off a few turns at a time, rotating the engine to do so, so equal pressure release. With luck with the application you can remove the bolts totally then the box will fall off taking the cover and plate with it.

Any pressed steel that is cracked up like the photo had a problem, no way a bit of levering of a bell housing would cause dozens of cracks. If the new plate has cured the problem, then the cause was a distorted plate, thats why box removal was a problem.

What on earth has autos and brake fluid got to do with this topic .

As l recall l eventually ignored your advice on stuff cos it was daft. But lets not go there eh.

Just to enlighten you my race twin plate, was in a manual gearbox car.

Think you just got a thing about not liking Toyota's eh.

Lastly, any body (you) advising to put a badly fractured clutch centre plate, or anything that can spin at 5000rpm back into an engine is no motor engineer.

Lastly, lastly, is there anyone else reading this that would re-install, put back in service a badly fractured clutch centre plate, that had been stuck on mainshaft, to save a few bucks.?

[Lickey]

Edited January 31, 2011 by Lickey

[Lickey]

Ok Mr Apprentice, <BR> If the clutch plate was that badly cracked and distorted, how come it changed gear perfecty well, and only made a small noise on a certain hill???????????<BR><BR>It showed no signs of heat or the plate breaking up, if it was possible to take the box out YOUR way, then it still would be stuck, it was hanging up in the spigot bearing..

[transam]

Ok Mr Apprentice, <BR> If the clutch plate was that badly cracked and distorted, how come it changed gear perfecty well, and only made a small noise on a certain hill???????????<BR><BR>It showed no signs of heat or the plate breaking up, if it was possible to take the box out YOUR way, then it still would be stuck, it was hanging up in the spigot bearing..

As on previous topics it is pointless arguing the toss with you. But, the clutch would release on disengagement on ONE surface if stuck with resistance on the splines, PERHAPS, but, I was not inside the bell housing to take notes .

Has the OP stated the spigot bearing had collapsed, or welded itself to the main shaft ?, eeeeeer no, but if it had, then would add to plate distortion.

AND, l am not a motor engineer , just stuff from hands on experience. From this motoring topic and others you are not a motoring engineer, but a motor fitter, BIG difference, as you do not understand the basics about fixing a problem and rubbish all other input.

Edited February 1, 2011 by transam

[Lickey]

Yes, it is rather pointless, because you dont really have any idea do you!

The plate HAS to free from both surfaces before gear change can be made!

The spigot bearing hasnt collapsed otherwise a severe vibration would occur, and i did tell OP how to check bearing,if the bearing was "rusted" onto the input shaft this will cause difficult box removal,and severe indentations in the alloy hsgs ect by the use of crowbars.which must be cleaned off before re-assembly or the box will shake loose.

How much easier do you want me to explain this? even the OP said he left the workshop because of the frantic shaking, and that changing gear was perfect,except for a little noise, 2nd to 1st ..

Motor Fitter, Really? what should i do then? Re-take my Volvo engine transmission Cummins engine 4.8 to 19ltr engine Perkins/Rolls Royce engine, Eaton twin Splitter gbox with twin plate and trans brake fault finding, Allison Automatic boxes , Scania 2-speed axle courses? then would i be qualified to answer tech questions?

[transam]

Yes, it is rather pointless, because you dont really have any idea do you!

The plate HAS to free from both surfaces before gear change can be made!

The spigot bearing hasnt collapsed otherwise a severe vibration would occur, and i did tell OP how to check bearing,if the bearing was "rusted" onto the input shaft this will cause difficult box removal,and severe indentations in the alloy hsgs ect by the use of crowbars.which must be cleaned off before re-assembly or the box will shake loose.

How much easier do you want me to explain this? even the OP said he left the workshop because of the frantic shaking, and that changing gear was perfect,except for a little noise, 2nd to 1st ..

Motor Fitter, Really? what should i do then? Re-take my Volvo engine transmission Cummins engine 4.8 to 19ltr engine Perkins/Rolls Royce engine, Eaton twin Splitter gbox with twin plate and trans brake fault finding, Allison Automatic boxes , Scania 2-speed axle courses? then would i be qualified to answer tech questions?

Well no. With a list of diploma's like that, how can you use your qualifications to advise that you would put a badly fractured/cracked up centre plate BACK into service when the vehicle in question has a CLUTCH PROBLEM.

Sounds like you got your diploma's in Thailand.

The End.

[Pib]

Coconut,

Glad to hear you got things fixed. Stress fractures can be caused by many factors, to include metal that was not properly heat treated during manufacturer and the cracks takes years to appear just from normal usage (or they can appear early through overstress). Wasn't clear to me if you replaced the pilot and throwout bearing also (maybe I just missed it), but if it had been me I would have replaced both of these in addition to the clutch plate since pilot bearings are cheap (although they generally last a long, long time) and throw-out bearings can be prone to failure/not last longer than a clutch plate.

Cheers,

Pib

Edited February 2, 2011 by Pib