Israel condemns Argentina for recognizing Palestine as an independent state

[Wallaby]

Of course yours would be right and mine would be wrong wouldn't they?

Firstly i did not say that and secondly, for the THIRD TIME, what does it have to do with the topic?

Firsly, because comment was made that people were anti making comment on the people of Israel when it should have been made about the govt.. So i made the correlation that it is the people that voted in the govt and therefore can be the actions of the govt are, in effect, condoned by the people.

Secondly, you responded and I replied. If you keep responding you are likely to have to ask me a FOURTH, FIFTH time etc.

Thirdly, I take it you did not wish me to respond to you so I will not. Not a problem.

[Ulysses G.]

So i made the correlation that it is the people that voted in the govt and therefore can be the actions of the govt are, in effect, condoned by the people.

That may be true with the Palestinian Arabs as very few condemn the tactics of violence used by Hamas and - until recently - the PLO. However, a pretty large percentage of Israelis are left-wingers who do little but protest their government's policies and want peace under any terms. It is a big stretch to say that they condone the actions of the government.

[Renbe]

No one has bothered to claim that there was, but according to every legitimate historian there was certainly a nation called Israel long before 1948. Just what do you think all the hoopla is about?

If you are referring to : "Over 3,500 years ago, according to the Book of Genesis, the land was promised by God to the descendants of Abraham through his son Isaac^[1] and to the Israelites, descendants of Jacob,

I doubt very much if you could call that " a Nation " In any case not anything that is or was anything like a nation state as we know it. In the mean time, "The Land of Israel " as well as it's inhabitants disappeared for hundreds of not thousands of years, and other people became the legitimate owners of that land. Those legitimate owners were murdered, raped, and expelled when in 1948 the modern state of Israel was "declared" on stolen land. and the immigration of thousands of people from all over the world commenced. People, I might add, who had no connection to that piece of land, nor any legitimate claim to that land, and who used their "membership" of a religious sect to claim land that did not belong to them.

[Ulysses G.]

What utter nonsense - you denying that there was ever a Jewish State before the modetrn one. There have been Jews there for thousands of years and the Arabs declared war on them, not the other way around.

That hateful propaganda belongs on a Hamas website where it will fit in with all the rest.

MYTH

"Jerusalem is an Arab City."

FACT

Jews have been living in Jerusalem continuously for three millennia. They have constituted the largest single group of inhabitants there since the 1840's. Jerusalem contains the Western Wall of the Temple Mount, the holiest site in Judaism.

Jerusalem was never the capital of any Arab entity. In fact, it was a backwater for most of Arab history. Jerusalem never served as a provincial capital under Muslim rule nor was it ever a Muslim cultural center. For Jews, the entire city is sacred, but Muslims revere a site the Dome of the Rock not the city. "To a Muslim," observed British writer Christopher Sykes, "there is a profound difference between Jerusalem and Mecca or Medina. The latter are holy places containing holy sites." Besides the Dome of the Rock, he noted, Jerusalem has no major Islamic significance.¹

Edited December 12, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[softgeorge]

• Published 13:04 07.12.10
• Latest update 13:04 07.12.10http://www.haaretz.com

Top rabbis move to forbid renting homes to Arabs, say 'racism originated in the Torah'

Edited December 12, 2010 by Scott
Full quote of article

[Ulysses G.]

I never really had a view on either side before but now I do.

Yeah sure.

[koheesti]

The Palestinians deserve thier own state and the right to live free from oppression by Israel. Every human deserves this right and hopefully the Israelies will learn this and grant it. We can only live in hope.

Just as do the Irish in Northern Ireland? Or the Kurds in Iraq? Or Chechens in Russia? Or Tibetens in China? Or Muslims in southern Thailand? Or the Muslims in The Philippines? Or the Basques in Spain? Or any of the dozens or other seperatist movements around the world? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_active_separatist_movements I guess we would hear more about them here on the pages of TV if there were Jews involved.

[kuffki]

• Published 13:04 07.12.10
• Latest update 13:04 07.12.10http://www.haaretz.com

Top rabbis move to forbid renting homes to Arabs, say 'racism originated in the Torah'

Dozens of Israel's municipal chief rabbis signed on to the ruling, which img]http://www.haaretz.com/polopoly_fs/1.318357.1291710697!/image/1547981004.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_295/1547981004.jpg[/img]

Dozens of Israel's municipal chief rabbis signed on to the ruling, which comes just months after the chief rabbi of Safed initiated a call urging Jews to refrain from renting or selling apartments to non-Jews.

Yeah, in Sydney we also have about 100 000-200 000 thousand of them and almost every drug deal, every drive by shooting, every scam is done by one of those nice people, not to mention gang rapes of Anglo Saxon girls.

Jails are also full in Sydney with those nice people.

Half of Sydney's West has been turned into a warzone ghetto

I believe Europe is having hard time with those nice people also

I do not recall seeing Israeli's being that nice in any country of world.

Edited December 12, 2010 by Scott
Full quote of article

[kujirasan]

Often western countries have been accused of imperialism, colonialism, but the most brutal and most pernicious and vilest was Islamic Imperialist, from Iran to Morocco whole culture and languages were annihilated and replaced by Bedouin culture and tenets, in what is Morocco, Berber population put up massive resistance and 70% of adult population was annihilated, the Phonetician culture disappeared the Egyptian language and culture vanished, to day the adherent of

Zoroastrian the Religion of Iran are less than a million world wide, that is including Iran. The only country that manage to expel this plague was Spain, in a bloody and brutal struggle, finally the Holy Order was Installed and re affirmed, and the name of Our Lord and sovereignty of Jesus was established.

How the Spanish is magnificent, but the resurrection of Israeli is just glorious, it is miracle! The people who gave us Jesus, who gave us Bible, have returned to their God given land! The most pernicious illegal settlement is the Aqsa Mosque, it is utter desecration, to the sanctity of humanity.

The anal of Islam is saturated with the most violent brutality as they spread out of Yemen, uncivilised people, living and operating in their filthy tents and committing carnage, and imposing their culture of marrying 9 years old girls etc, the Golden age of Islam etc is just propaganda, how could some tent dwelling nomads come up with astronomical science etc, these were taken from Persians , Egyptians the Assyrians , The Arabs in Palastian are just those invaders, and the christians ones are Muslims who go to church, in words of Crusaders, they no better the Saracens, as they have adopted the crooked and twisted way of Muslims.

[kuffki]

• Published 13:04 07.12.10
• Latest update 13:04 07.12.10http://www.haaretz.com

Top rabbis move to forbid renting homes to Arabs, say 'racism originated in the Torah'

Dozens of Israel's municipal chief rabbis signed on to the ruling, which comes just months after the chief rabbi of Safed initiated a call urging Jews to refrain from renting or selling apartments to non-Jews.

Edited December 12, 2010 by Scott
Full quote of article

[pkspeaker]

This is non-sense, and you don't appear to have read the previous posts in which I talked about the Sudan and it's breakaway darfur region, Palestine is not a 'separatist' region necessarily. example: there are 5 million tebetans and a billion chinese, the darfur region of sudan or the chechens, the population in these breakaway regions of large countries represents a small fraction of the total.. for example in the thai south; when elections are held the people down there vote and are represented in parliament..the muslim separtists are trying to break the small region away and become independent, the government here is fighting to keep them incorporated in this union; so the Thai government has democracy on it's side.. it's kind of like if Arizona was to secede from the USA, the central government says "no you can't, you guys can vote like everyone else." This political dynamic is true of all the countries you listed, it is not true of Israel.

In Israel you have Palestinians living right next to settler neighborhoods:

http://www.stopthewall.org/news/maps.shtml

but they are not represented in the parliament because they are not allowed to vote and are not citizens, this creates a very racist government which does things like demolish their houses, confiscate their land, creates jewish only roads and housing projects, denies building permits..not to mention private oppresion like settlers detroying palestinian olive trees and poisoning their livestock and violently attacking palestinian civilians..all the stuff the discussed earlier.. The world wants israel to get out of the 22% of this country so that a 2nd state can be created there, they refuse and also refuse to create a single state, or bi-national state..

you people keep trying to make israel into the 'normal' country..it is not, it is a country with a unique history.. BTW Jews were not involved in South Africa aphartied so this perceived unfairness toward jews doesn't exist, just the opposite..people of christian european decent were not allowed to have an aphartied state in south africa, but people of jewish "" are allowed to have a worse one in israel/palestine.

The Palestinians deserve thier own state and the right to live free from oppression by Israel. Every human deserves this right and hopefully the Israelies will learn this and grant it. We can only live in hope.

Just as do the Irish in Northern Ireland? Or the Kurds in Iraq? Or Chechens in Russia? Or Tibetens in China? Or Muslims in southern Thailand? Or the Muslims in The Philippines? Or the Basques in Spain? Or any of the dozens or other seperatist movements around the world? http://en.wikipedia....atist_movements I guess we would hear more about them here on the pages of TV if there were Jews involved.

[kuffki]

This is non-sense, and you don't appear to have read the previous posts in which I talked about the Sudan and it's breakaway darfur region, Palestine is not a 'separatist' region necessarily. example: there are 5 million tebetans and a billion chinese, the darfur region of sudan or the chechens, the population in these breakaway regions of large countries represents a small fraction of the total.. for example in the thai south; when elections are held the people down there vote and are represented in parliament..the muslim separtists are trying to break the small region away and become independent, the government here is fighting to keep them incorporated in this union; so the Thai government has democracy on it's side.. it's kind of like if Arizona was to secede from the USA, the central government says "no you can't, you guys can vote like everyone else." This political dynamic is true of all the countries you listed, it is not true of Israel.

In Israel you have Palestinians living right next to settler neighborhoods:

http://www.stopthewa...news/maps.shtml

but they are not represented in the parliament because they are not allowed to vote and are not citizens, this creates a very racist government which does things like demolish their houses, confiscate their land, creates jewish only roads and housing projects, denies building permits..not to mention private oppresion like settlers detroying palestinian olive trees and poisoning their livestock and violently attacking palestinian civilians..all the stuff the discussed earlier.. The world wants israel to get out of the 22% of this country so that a 2nd state can be created there, they refuse and also refuse to create a single state, or bi-national state..

you people keep trying to make israel into the 'normal' country..it is not, it is a country with a unique history.. BTW Jews were not involved in South Africa aphartied so this perceived unfairness toward jews doesn't exist, just the opposite..people of christian european decent were not allowed to have an aphartied state in south africa, but people of jewish "" are allowed to have a worse one in israel/palestine.

The Palestinians deserve thier own state and the right to live free from oppression by Israel. Every human deserves this right and hopefully the Israelies will learn this and grant it. We can only live in hope.

Just as do the Irish in Northern Ireland? Or the Kurds in Iraq? Or Chechens in Russia? Or Tibetens in China? Or Muslims in southern Thailand? Or the Muslims in The Philippines? Or the Basques in Spain? Or any of the dozens or other seperatist movements around the world? http://en.wikipedia....atist_movements I guess we would hear more about them here on the pages of TV if there were Jews involved.

And once again, truth has been mixed with rubbish.

Sadly due to rule 30 of Thai Visa, i can not highlight the rubbish to call you on it.

However can you please provide evidence that Palestinians living in Israel are NOT citizens as you claim and they do not or can not hold Israeli passport?

Also while you at it, since Israel is so racist, perhaps you can give us history lesson on why in Thailand foreigners have very little rights.

So it seems you have no problem being discriminated living in Thailand, yet you seem to have a problem with Israel doing not even half of that.

Israel-Palestinian can own a house, can get a job, pays same price for a house as everyone else, all official documents come in 4 languages, including arabic

Thailand-Foreigner can not own land or house, can only get a job is certain areas and does require work permit which cost a fortune, pays more for the condo then a Thai(new condo's), all official documents come only in Thai

PS. Also do you think you can provide links and quotes from NON Palestinian website? but rather from an impartial site

Edited December 12, 2010 by kuffki

[pkspeaker]

I'm not talking about Israeli arabs, I'm talking about the Palestinians, there are Palestinians, and then there are Palestinians who are israeli citizens..and I posted a video on #43 that illustrates the inequalities that israeli arabs face, but the Palestinians in the west bank have it much worse.. the only thing I posted from the Palestininian website are MAPS, these maps simply illustrate where the Palestinians are, where the settlements are and where the roads are, its doesn't matter if te come from wikidpedia or pcs.. your attempt to argue that israel is not an aphartied state is such a complete waste of time.

and your comparing foreigners here that are on a tourist of non-immigrant visa to the citizens in israel palestine..if you become a thai national here you have the same rights as the citizens..palestinians are not living there useing a foreign passport as an id card..they are living in their own country, apples and oranges here.

Edited December 12, 2010 by pkspeaker

[kuffki]

King David ruled Israel from 990 BCE to 968 BCE; and his son Solomon ruled after him until 928 BCE. David enlarged his kingdom and brought it to the peak of political and military power. Solomon "ruled over all the kingdoms west of the Euphrates River from Tiphsah to Gaza; he was at peace with all his neighbors" (I Kings, 4:24).

King Herod, of Edomite extraction, was king of Israel from 40 BCE to 4 BCE. He was appointed by Rome and conquered the kingdom from the Hasmoneans. When Augustus became the Roman Caesar in the year 30 BCE, Herod convinced him of his loyalty, and Augustus rewarded him by adding Jericho, the coastal region south of Dor and the region east of the Sea of Galilee. In 23 BCE, he was given the Bashan, Horen, and Tarchon regions, and three years later, the Golan Heights.

[kuffki]

In 1947, Great Britain relinquished to the UN the power to make decisions relating to the status of the Land of Israel. The General Assembly appointed a special committee that collected evidence and decided unanimously that Israel should be granted independence. Most of the committee members favored partitioning the land into two states, a Jewish state and an Arab state, with Jerusalem under international supervision. On November 29, 1947, the UN General Assembly accepted the partition resolution, 33 to 13.

In the spring and summer of 1949, agreements were signed between Israel and its neighbors establishing Israel's armistice lines. To some extent, these lines overlapped the borderline of Palestine during the British Mandate period, or they were close to it, with the exception of the Judea and Samaria region, and the surrounding area of the Gaza Strip. These lines were drawn up, on the assumption that they would be temporary, and would be replaced within a few years by permanent borders.

Much of the international border between Mandatory Palestine and Egypt became the armistice line between Israel and Egypt. The armistice line with Lebanon was close to the international border that existed during the British Mandate period, and overlapped it.

These two lines did not correspond to the battle frontlines as they existed during the cessation of hostilities, and Israel withdrew in both cases to the mandatory borderline, which became the armistice line. The armistice lines with Syria and Jordan closely corresponded to the frontlines.

[koheesti]

The Palestinians deserve thier own state and the right to live free from oppression by Israel. Every human deserves this right and hopefully the Israelies will learn this and grant it. We can only live in hope.

Just as do the Irish in Northern Ireland? Or the Kurds in Iraq? Or Chechens in Russia? Or Tibetens in China? Or Muslims in southern Thailand? Or the Muslims in The Philippines? Or the Basques in Spain? Or any of the dozens or other seperatist movements around the world? http://en.wikipedia....atist_movements I guess we would hear more about them here on the pages of TV if there were Jews involved.

This is non-sense, and you don't appear to have read the previous posts in which I talked about the Sudan and it's breakaway darfur region, Palestine is not a 'separatist' region necessarily. example: there are 5 million tebetans and a billion chinese, the darfur region of sudan or the chechens, the population in these breakaway regions of large countries represents a small fraction of the total.. for example in the thai south; when elections are held the people down there vote and are represented in parliament..the muslim separtists are trying to break the small region away and become independent, the government here is fighting to keep them incorporated in this union; so the Thai government has democracy on it's side.. it's kind of like if Arizona was to secede from the USA, the central government says "no you can't, you guys can vote like everyone else." This political dynamic is true of all the countries you listed, it is not true of Israel.

So, those untold millions of people around the world are exempt from your "Every human deserves this right " to "deserve thier own state and the right to live free " because of semantics? They've lived on their lands probably as long as if not longer than the Palestinians in what is now Israel. I don't see how that means they don't deserve to have their own state or the right to live free. Selective outrage on your part?

btw - Arizona isn't made up of a different ethnic group than the rest of the USA so that analogy doesn't work.

Edited December 12, 2010 by koheesti

[kuffki]

The Six Day War was the first major Arab attempt since 1948 to destroy Israel. In November 1966, an Egyptian-Syrian Defense Agreement was signed, encouraging the Syrians to escalate tensions, which reached a climax in the spring of 1967.

May 14: Egypt mobilizes its forces in and around the Suez Canal.

May 16: Egypt moves it forces eastward across the Sinai desert towards the Israeli border, demanding the withdrawal of UN Emergency Force (UNEF) stationed along the frontier.

May 19: The Egyptians expelled the UN Emergency Force (UNEF) from the Gaza Strip and Sinai, and continued pouring its military forces into these areas.

May 22: Egypt closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping, constituting a casus belli for Israel.

May 24-June 4: Answering the Egyptian call, the governments of Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Syria and Lebanon moved their forces toward the Israeli border. Israel mobilized its reserve forces, and launched a diplomatic campaign to win international support for ending the Egyptian blockade of Israeli shipping through the Strait of Tiran.

Once it became clear that the diplomatic campaign had failed, and following Jordan's participation in the Egyptian-Syrian alliance, Israel launched action in self-defense against the massing threat from Egypt on June 5, 1967. Once Jordan and Syria initiated the fighting against Israel, the war also included those countries. In the course of the war, the Israeli forces captured the Sinai peninsula, reaching the Suez Canal, and captured the territories of Judea and Samaria as well as the Golan Heights - from which the Syrians had shelled Israel.

A few days after the end of the Six-Day War, on June 27, 1967, the Israeli Parliament passed a law that Israeli administration and jurisdiction apply to all the territory of Jerusalem acquired in the war. The following day, the Jerusalem municipal boundaries were extended to include eastern Jerusalem, as well as Atarot and Neve Yaakov in the north and Gilo in the south.

[kuffki]

and icing on the cake

Based on agreements reached between Israel and the Palestinians in the 90s, arrangements for Palestinian self-government were established. The Palestinians rejected the proposals made at the Camp David Summit of July 2000, which would have resulted in the establishment of a Palestinian state in most of Judea and Samaria (as well as in the Gaza Strip). The Palestinians followed their rejection with a bloody terror campaign. Israel in 2003 accepted the Roadmap which would lead to the establishment of a Palestinian state alongside Israel, provided the Palestinians fulfill their obligations to end terrorism and incitement. The final status of Judea and Samaria - determining the borders between Israel and the Palestinian state, and those parts of Judea and Samaria which are to be correspondingly under Israeli and Palestinian jurisdiction - is yet to be resolved and is currently the subject of negotiations between the Government of Israel and the Palestinian Authority.

[kuffki]

I'm not talking about Israeli arabs, I'm talking about the Palestinians, there are Palestinians, and then there are Palestinians who are israeli citizens..and I posted a video on #43 that illustrates the inequalities that israeli arabs face, but the Palestinians in the west bank have it much worse.. the only thing I posted from the Palestininian website are MAPS, these maps simply illustrate where the Palestinians are, where the settlements are and where the roads are, its doesn't matter if te come from wikidpedia or pcs.. your attempt to argue that israel is not an aphartied state is such a complete waste of time.

and your comparing foreigners here that are on a tourist of non-immigrant visa to the citizens in israel palestine..if you become a thai national here you have the same rights as the citizens..palestinians are not living there useing a foreign passport as an id card..they are living in their own country, apples and oranges here.

What is the difference between Arab-Israeli and Palestinian? How many Arab-Israeli's are there?1 million at least?! Since they so discriminated is there any reason why Arabic is one of the oficial languages?

How many foreigners do you know who managed to become Thai Nationals?

You posted a video from where?A Pro Palestinian website again, how about a video from impartial site?

How can Palestinian living in Israel be living in his own country? his own country would be Palestine, certainly not Israel.

[pkspeaker]

This historical perspective. smaks of a perspective that refers to the USA as nothing but barbarians invading other countris and killing their people, true all super powers have had abuses, there are good things and many bad things about them..

At the time of the Islamic Caliphate, it was the super power in the western hemisphere and the center of economic activity, it had the worlds most advanced universities and they made advances in engineering, architecture, and most importantly mathematics-having developed the advanced mathematics like algebra - which would later pave the way for chemistry and the industrial revolution, had the arabs not invented advanced mathematics you wouldn't be typing your hate on a computer right now..

take for example Palestine, the arabs rolled over the represive Byzantine regime that controlled syria, palestine, etc. the Byzantines had been very repressive toward Jews or anyone who wasn't christians and most of the jews were thrown out and took refuge in arab controlled areas, when the arabs took over jews and christians were allowed to worship freely and live where ever they wanted, that is why you had arab jews and christians in the modern era.. Spain was a wonderful place at that time having been home to inquisitions and witch burning.. but ultimatly, the places where the Islamic Caliphate was welcomed and benefited the local populations;islam and arabic culture stuck, from iran to morocco, the places wherethey tried to forced their more 'civilized' ways on places like Spain and Corsica, it didn't stick..super powers always go to far with their arrogance.

BTW later when Crusaders arrived in Palestine-they murdered every muslim and jewish man, woman, and child in Jerusalem..88 years later when Saladin finally took Palestine back-the arabs didn't murder every european man, woman, and child; instead they were give safe passage to acre where they retreated, until they were finally finished off there (defeated but not murdered).. and again the arabs allowed jews to live in Palestine again..the reason you had iraqi, syrian, iranian, and Palestinian jews in the modern era is because the arab policy of letting jews live where ever they wanted, some returned to Palestine, some stayed in the countries that they were expelled to by the Byzantines and Crusaders..

Study real history, not hate mongering garbage.

Often western countries have been accused of imperialism, colonialism, but the most brutal and most pernicious and vilest was Islamic Imperialist, from Iran to Morocco whole culture and languages were annihilated and replaced by Bedouin culture and tenets, in what is Morocco, Berber population put up massive resistance and 70% of adult population was annihilated, the Phonetician culture disappeared the Egyptian language and culture vanished, to day the adherent of

Zoroastrian the Religion of Iran are less than a million world wide, that is including Iran. The only country that manage to expel this plague was Spain, in a bloody and brutal struggle, finally the Holy Order was Installed and re affirmed, and the name of Our Lord and sovereignty of Jesus was established.

How the Spanish is magnificent, but the resurrection of Israeli is just glorious, it is miracle! The people who gave us Jesus, who gave us Bible, have returned to their God given land! The most pernicious illegal settlement is the Aqsa Mosque, it is utter desecration, to the sanctity of humanity.

The anal of Islam is saturated with the most violent brutality as they spread out of Yemen, uncivilised people, living and operating in their filthy tents and committing carnage, and imposing their culture of marrying 9 years old girls etc, the Golden age of Islam etc is just propaganda, how could some tent dwelling nomads come up with astronomical science etc, these were taken from Persians , Egyptians the Assyrians , The Arabs in Palastian are just those invaders, and the christians ones are Muslims who go to church, in words of Crusaders, they no better the Saracens, as they have adopted the crooked and twisted way of Muslims.

Edited December 12, 2010 by pkspeaker

[pkspeaker]

You can become a Thai natioal, you just have to lean the language well and go thru a process that takes 8 years, its not easy but this is apples and oranges, Palestinians are not people who arrived on a plane with a foreign passport as an id card,

there are appox 1.3million arab israelis, they can vote but their political parties are always in opposition, but at least they are allowed freedom of movement.. then 1.5million aplestinians stuck in gaza, and 2.5million in the west bank..these are the people that can't vote and have no freedom of movement.. the video I posted is from aljazeera (#43), you can say it's not impartal, but that doesn't matter, it clearly illustrates that israeli policies toward arab israelis is outrageously racist, no building permits, jewish only housing, demolishing 'illegal' structures that were built w/o permit. dumping sewage and garbage on them..ITS A VIDEO ok

your post on #108 clearly illustrates the aphartied, but what I said earlier is that a 'good' offer was not made to the Palestinians in 2000, more apharttied was offered on 2000, AND it's now almost 2011 and NEGOTIATIONS HAVE NOT RESTARTED FROM WHERE THEY LEFT OFF IN 2000, even though thats exactly was Abbas and the PA wants to do, they have wanted since then to pick up from where they left off at Taba which is when the ISRAELIS ended those negotiations.. again the ISraelis terminated final status negotiations in 2000 not the palestinians.. saying an 'offer was rejected' you don't just throw an offer like a bone and then not make another offer for 11 years..

I'm not talking about Israeli arabs, I'm talking about the Palestinians, there are Palestinians, and then there are Palestinians who are israeli citizens..and I posted a video on #43 that illustrates the inequalities that israeli arabs face, but the Palestinians in the west bank have it much worse.. the only thing I posted from the Palestininian website are MAPS, these maps simply illustrate where the Palestinians are, where the settlements are and where the roads are, its doesn't matter if te come from wikidpedia or pcs.. your attempt to argue that israel is not an aphartied state is such a complete waste of time.

and your comparing foreigners here that are on a tourist of non-immigrant visa to the citizens in israel palestine..if you become a thai national here you have the same rights as the citizens..palestinians are not living there useing a foreign passport as an id card..they are living in their own country, apples and oranges here.

What is the difference between Arab-Israeli and Palestinian? How many Arab-Israeli's are there?1 million at least?! Since they so discriminated is there any reason why Arabic is one of the oficial languages?

How many foreigners do you know who managed to become Thai Nationals?

You posted a video from where?A Pro Palestinian website again, how about a video from impartial site?

How can Palestinian living in Israel be living in his own country? his own country would be Palestine, certainly not Israel.

[kuffki]

You can become a Thai natioal, you just have to lean the language well and go thru a process that takes 8 years, its not easy but this is apples and oranges, Palestinians are not people who arrived on a plane with a foreign passport as an id card,

there are appox 1.3million arab israelis, they can vote but their political parties are always in opposition, but at least they are allowed freedom of movement.. then 1.5million aplestinians stuck in gaza, and 2.5million in the west bank..these are the people that can't vote and have no freedom of movement.. the video I posted is from aljazeera (#43), you can say it's not impartal, but that doesn't matter, it clearly illustrates that israeli policies toward arab israelis is outrageously racist, no building permits, jewish only housing, demolishing 'illegal' structures that were built w/o permit. dumping sewage and garbage on them..ITS A VIDEO ok

your post on #108 clearly illustrates the aphartied, but what I said earlier is that a 'good' offer was not made to the Palestinians in 2000, more apharttied was offered on 2000, AND it's now almost 2011 and NEGOTIATIONS HAVE NOT RESTARTED FROM WHERE THEY LEFT OFF IN 2000, even though thats exactly was Abbas and the PA wants to do, they have wanted since then to pick up from where they left off at Taba which is when the ISRAELIS ended those negotiations.. again the ISraelis terminated final status negotiations in 2000 not the palestinians.. saying an 'offer was rejected' you don't just throw an offer like a bone and then not make another offer for 11 years..

I'm not talking about Israeli arabs, I'm talking about the Palestinians, there are Palestinians, and then there are Palestinians who are israeli citizens..and I posted a video on #43 that illustrates the inequalities that israeli arabs face, but the Palestinians in the west bank have it much worse.. the only thing I posted from the Palestininian website are MAPS, these maps simply illustrate where the Palestinians are, where the settlements are and where the roads are, its doesn't matter if te come from wikidpedia or pcs.. your attempt to argue that israel is not an aphartied state is such a complete waste of time.

and your comparing foreigners here that are on a tourist of non-immigrant visa to the citizens in israel palestine..if you become a thai national here you have the same rights as the citizens..palestinians are not living there useing a foreign passport as an id card..they are living in their own country, apples and oranges here.

What is the difference between Arab-Israeli and Palestinian? How many Arab-Israeli's are there?1 million at least?! Since they so discriminated is there any reason why Arabic is one of the oficial languages?

How many foreigners do you know who managed to become Thai Nationals?

You posted a video from where?A Pro Palestinian website again, how about a video from impartial site?

How can Palestinian living in Israel be living in his own country? his own country would be Palestine, certainly not Israel.

Some 1.8 million people, which is 24 percent of Israel's population, are Arabs. Although defined collectively as Arab citizens of Israel, they include a number of different, primarily Arabic-speaking, groups, each with distinct characteristics.

Muslim Arabs, over 1.2 million people, most of whom are Sunni

Bedouin Arabs, also Muslim (estimated at approximately 250,000)

Christian Arabs, some 123,000

Druze, some 122,000 Arabic-speakers

The majority of Israel's Arab population lives in self-contained towns and villages in Galilee, including the city of Nazareth, the central area between Hadera and Petah Tikva, the Negev, and in mixed urban centers such as Jerusalem, Akko (Acre), Haifa, Lod, Ramle, and Yafo (Jaffa).

Politically, Arab involvement is manifested in national and municipal elections. Arab citizens run the political and administrative affairs of their own municipalities and represent Arab interests through their elected representatives in the Israel's parliament.

Arab citizens are exempted from compulsory service in the Israel Defense Forces out of consideration for their family, religious, and cultural affiliations with the Arab world

Furthermore,each religious community is free, by law and in practice, to exercise its faith, to observe its holidays and weekly day of rest, and to administer its internal affairs.

Each has its own religious council and courts, recognized by law and with jurisdiction over all religious affairs and matters of personal status such as marriage and divorce.

Each has its own unique places of worship.

How can you call this not fair or discrimination?Do you think or know of any Jewish community's living in Arab states who enjoy even the 10th of what Israeli-Arabs have?S

PS. About the peace negotiations. They have not re-started because of Hamas. You do not see or hear of Fatah shooting rockets into Israel, do you?

Abbas was and is a good leader for Palestine who would have achieved some progress but he was toppled by Hamas who even refuse to recognizes e Israel. What negotiations can take place with someone who does not recognize your right to exist?!

Those living under Fatah govern are not repressed nor attacked, but certainly can do better if and when Palestine is united under 1 rule of government who are not known terrorist organization and not only terrorist by Israel's standards but by most country's in the world

Edited December 12, 2010 by kuffki

[pkspeaker]

You keep making the same argument that was countered ealier in the thread, earlier in the thread I posted links from ynet and foxnews and someone posted something from wikidpedia, Hamas has offered recognition of israel in some shape or form along the 1967 border, but more importantly they have told Abbas he can negotiate with israel, and the aggreement will be put to referendum and the Palestinians can vote on it and Hamas will accept the outcome..

so there is no reason Israel cannot negotiate in good faith.. The israeli governement is made up of extremist likud and settler parties, the reason they don't negotiate is because they are always looking for excuses not to, so they can continue their agenda aphartied and outrageous oppression..

[kuffki]

You keep making the same argument that was countered ealier in the thread, earlier in the thread I posted links from ynet and foxnews and someone posted something from wikidpedia, Hamas has offered recognition of israel in some shape or form along the 1967 border, but more importantly they have told Abbas he can negotiate with israel, and the aggreement will be put to referendum and the Palestinians can vote on it and Hamas will accept the outcome..

so there is no reason Israel cannot negotiate in good faith.. The israeli governement is made up of extremist likud and settler parties, the reason they don't negotiate is because they are always looking for excuses not to, so they can continue their agenda aphartied and outrageous oppression..

Hamas has NEVER offered to recognize Israel.

Even in the latest statement made by one of the leaders, they will not recognize Israel under any terms or conditions.

Really unsure where you source your information from.

As for 1967 borders, if you recall who attacked whom? and whose lands was taken? Jordan and Syria, pretty much has nothing to do with Palestine

[Ulysses G.]

This is non-sense...

And once again, truth has been mixed with rubbish.

At one time, some peon in Hamas said they might negotiate if Israel met some absurd conditions that would never happen - a typical Hamas tactic - but that fallacious offer has been denied repeatedly ever sense by other leaders.

The little bits of truth in pkspeaker's tales is very sparse indeed.

Edited December 12, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[pkspeaker]

But they have agreed to let Abbas negotiate with israel, when he signs a final peace aggreement (for a Palestinian state along the 1967 borders-which is what we know he will negotiate on) that agreement will be put to referendum and the Palestinians can vote on it and Hamas will accept the outcome.. in other words since they were democratically elected, they will not obstruct an agreement that polls show the Palestinian people support.

Hamas is an islamic political organization, right wing jewish israeli parties like the ones in netanyahoos coalition do not accept the existence of Palestine either, it doesn't mean that netanyahoo can't peice together a different coalition and make an agreement and push it through..

The whole 'recognition' issue is just a ploy to sabotage a solution.. who the hell cares what is 'recognized' .. the idea is to draw a border for 2 states, make a permanent ceasefire, and then for israel to end its occupation of the Palestinian state.

[kuffki]

But they have agreed to let Abbas negotiate with israel, when he signs a final peace aggreement (for a Palestinian state along the 1967 borders-which is what we know he will negotiate on) that agreement will be put to referendum and the Palestinians can vote on it and Hamas will accept the outcome.. in other words since they were democratically elected, they will not obstruct an agreement that polls show the Palestinian people support.

Hamas is an islamic political organization, right wing jewish israeli parties like the ones in netanyahoos coalition do not accept the existence of Palestine either, it doesn't mean that netanyahoo can't peice together a different coalition and make an agreement and push it through..

The whole 'recognition' issue is just a ploy to sabotage a solution.. who the hell cares what is 'recognized' .. the idea is to draw a border for 2 states, make a permanent ceasefire, and then for israel to end its occupation of the Palestinian state.

and for Hamas to stop firing rockets into Israel. I do not recall seeing Israeli right wing parties sit on the roofs of houses and fire rockets into Palestine, do you?!

What land is occupied? Israel has pulled out of most Palestinian territories only keeping control over the areas where rockets are usually fired from.

Who is they? who have agreed to negotiate with Israel?

Fatah and Hamas do not agree on most issues, and if you recall both have split Palestine into 2 sub states. so who is they who agreed?

[Ulysses G.]

But they have agreed to let Abbas negotiate with israel

More Hamas double talk.

However, an Israeli government official pointed out that Haniya never explicitly said Hamas would be prepared to end its conflict with Israel in such a case.

"They never say that a Palestinian state living alongside Israel will be enough for them, but rather that they will accept it," he said, speaking on condition of anonymity. "Notice that he never says that they will then be willing to live with Israel after that."

"Ultimately they are committed to an Islamist Palestinian state that will replace Israel," the official added.

[pkspeaker]

israeli right wing parties bombed the hell out of gaza recently, killing 1500 people, in response to rockets that maybe killed 1 person, the 'terrorism' is harassing resistance to an extremely repressive apartheid state; israel has a big army, they don't need to fire rockets, but these right wing settlers do however attack Palestinian farmers, destoy their crops, etc as mentioned before.. the maps posted by me and you clearly show that israel has not 'pulled out of most f the territories' they only pulled out of most of gaza, leaving this tiny strip of land with 1.5 million people cramed into it isolated and cut off from the rest of the country..they are split because they are physically split, they need cooperation from israel to reunite, likie with passage between the 2 territories..once israel signs the final agreement with abbas on borders, the minor terrorist attacks that are taking place now, and they ARE minor as an israeli hasn't been killed by a Palestinian for months, and the rocket fire from gaza is way down, at that point militant resistance to israel can be stopped for good.. the israel can just make a few adjustments in their laws to address the grievances of israeli-arabs .. it's alot easier to solve this conflict than the western media and politics have people believe.

hamas may not really 'accept' the israeli state as this israeli official you mentioned points out, but the only thing that matters is that they stop militant attacks.. this can be done, a permanent ceace fire.. they are hardly fireing right now and thats with a brutal blockade in place and being cut off from the rest of the country.

Edited December 12, 2010 by pkspeaker

[Ulysses G.]

israeli right wing parties bombed the hell out of gaza recently, killing 1500 people, in response to rockets that maybe killed 1 person,

Hamas was trying to kill as many people as possible. What a lame excuse.

"What casualties have the Hamas rockets caused?

Since 2001, when the rockets were first fired, more than 8,600 have hit southern Israel, nearly 6,000 of them since Israel withdrew from Gaza in August 2005. The rockets have killed 28 people and injured hundreds more. In the Israeli town of Sderot near Gaza, 90% of residents have had a missile exploding in their street or an adjacent one.

The range of the missiles is increasing. The Qassam rocket (named after a Palestinian leader in the 1930s) has a range of about 10km (6 miles) but more advanced missiles, including versions of the old Soviet Grad or Katyusha, possibly smuggled in, have recently hit the Israeli city of Beersheba, 40km (25 miles) from Gaza and brought 800,000 Israelis into range".

Edited December 12, 2010 by Ulysses G.