Sak Noi

[Jeddah Jo]

Hi All,

Very often GF will say something and then put sak noi on the end. I am never quite sure if it is reaffirming what she has just said or negating it, or maybe something imbetween?

Thanks in advance (a Thai novice).

JJ

[BambinA]

Hi All,

Very often GF will say something and then put sak noi on the end. I am never quite sure if it is reaffirming what she has just said or negating it, or maybe something imbetween?

Thanks in advance (a Thai novice).

JJ

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im not sure "sak noi "

but i think it is สักหน่อย ซะหน่อย - just a lil bit

mai chai sa moi (sak noi) ไม่ใช่ (ซะหน่อย) สักหน่อย = no, its not true

gin num sa noi (sak noi) mai? กินน้ำ (ซะหน่อย) สักหน่อย ไหม= do you want some water ,alil bit?

Bambi

[Johpa]

Hi All,

Very often GF will say something and then put sak noi on the end. I am never quite sure if it is reaffirming what she has just said or negating it, or maybe something imbetween?

Thanks in advance (a Thai novice).

JJ

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Depending on the context it can mean "just a little bit" or "even a little bit" ( (ca deum sak noi) and is often placed into a question or a negative as in "mai choop sak noi" (I don't like it one iota). A very common expression.

[meadish_sweetball]

Yep. Very common in arguments:

"mai dai maai khwaam (waa) yangan (sak noi)!" = ไม่ได้หมายความ(ว่า)ยังงั้น(สัก ซัก ซะ)หน่อย

That's not what I meant (at all)!

Note that, 'sak', that should be spelt with sor seua and thus take the low tone (high class initial, dead syllable), most often takes a high tone in spoken Thai, as if it were spelt with sor soh. Very often, the silent 'k' at the end also disappears completely, leaving only ซะ (sá). It is not too uncommon to see either of these two spellings in cartoon magazines, or used in Internet chat rooms...

[samran]

I'd reckon you'd want to use 'Luuey' rather than 'Sak noi' in your situation there sweedish. (sorry no Thai keyboard today).

When your wife says something with 'sak noi' at the end of a sentance, in all likelyhood she is actually asking or in some contexts mini-pleading for you do something for her.

eg: Take your shoes of in the house sak noi

or: Don't burp at the table sak noi

she is reaffirming something she has probably asked you already. If she asks it for the first time, the 'sak' will not be used, only the 'noi'.

[Mr. Farang]

The purpose of any Thai phrase or sound with "noi" at the end is used in Thai to soften the request - to be more polite.

For example:

Can I see the menu? is often said:

"Kaw du mennu noi, krap"

Which simply uses "noi" to soften the context to be more polite. This is common in all aspects of Thai conversation and it is actually uncommon to hear most Thai people ask for a menu, a coke or anything without softening with "noi" and similar sounds like "na krap" "na ka" etc.

In Thai language is used as "music to the ears" where talking sweet and kind in all situations, even in adversity, is the cultural norm. This cultural norm (softening, polite speech) is reflected in all aspects of the culture.

(sorry, I don't have my PC set up to write Thai, as my work is all in English and I can't find my XP disk at the moment to set up Thai typing... but I will try to do it next month....).

[BambinA]

"Kaw du mennu noi,  krap"

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sorry i dont mean to beat you but it should be

Kor (Khor) Doo Me(may) Noo Noi (can add NA) Krab

ขอดูเมนูหน่อย (นะ)ครับ

[Mr. Farang]

"Kaw du mennu noi,  krap"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

sorry i dont mean to beat you but it should be

Kor (Khor) Doo Me(may) Noo Noi (can add NA) Krab

ขอดูเมนูหน่อย (นะ)ครับ

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, but I don't think the transcription you use Bambi is in the only accepted one in Thailand. In fact, there is a current article in this months edition of the Thai Airways (TG) in-flight magazine that says that Thais generally do not use the "officially approved" way ( I don't.... and neither do you...).

What method do you use?

[Mr. Farang]

"Kaw du mennu noi,  krap"

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sorry i dont mean to beat you but it should be

Kor (Khor) Doo Me(may) Noo Noi (can add NA) Krab

ขอดูเมนูหน่อย (นะ)ครับ

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Dear Bambi,

Follow this link to the (one possible) transcription:

http://www.thai-language.com/id/131310

and you will see that your method of transcription is not the only one in use ;-)

as the link above "khaaw" is very different than your "kor" or "khor"... you seem to love to put "R" sounds where they do not belong... perhaps you might change your transcription method to the one at the link above, because, from an English language prespective "khaaw" is almost 100% correct, and "Kor" is not even close to how it sounds....

Edited August 25, 2005 by Mr. Farang

[Mr. Farang]

As one final example, Bambi, you spell "Kor" and/or "Khor"... OK, let's plug those English terms of Thai into another translation service, for example at:

http://www.thai-language.com/

for your "kor" you will get the sound of "Korea" which is very different than the sound of "Khaaw" in Thai.

The same is true for your "khor" which will sound like "Korat" (a city in Thailand) which is also very different that "Khaaw" which has a That vowel with no "R" sound anywhere in the aspiration.

I am very interested in what method you use... ?????

Please point to the book (provide ISBN) or method on line?

Yours sincerely,

Mr. Farang

[BambinA]

I am very interested in what method you use... ?????

Please point to the book (provide ISBN) or method on line?

Yours sincerely,

Mr. Farang

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my method i use?? i just imagine it ..no book ..sorry (in TH , sometime some alphabets are dead sound)

Bambi

[Mr. Farang]

I am very interested in what method you use... ?????

Please point to the book (provide ISBN) or method on line?

Yours sincerely,

Mr. Farang

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my method i use?? i just imagine it ..no book ..sorry (in TH , sometime some alphabets are dead sound)

Bambi

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Dear Bambi,

Yes, thank you. That is what I suspected from your posts. You are so helpful to everyone and your posts are so great! Please permit me to also help you with transcription a bit, from your Thai to English.

I have noticed that when you terminate your English spellings for example, "Khaaw" you transcribe as "Kor" or "Khor"... however, in English, "Khaaw" or "Kaw" is correct, as an English spelling with an "R" at the end would not sound correct for this vowel.

I found this site to have some really good transcription capability that actual works as it should sound in both Thai and English: http://www.thai-language.com/

BTW, I met someone a few years ago who also used "R" as the end of some words, where then should not, and they did it because the book had "R"s as footnotes (in their early studies) indicating "Rising Tone"..... and they started to think all the words ended in "R"...... they really laughed when they found out there were no "R"s at the end after a year of confusion!

I have seen many of your posts and they are so great! You are wonderful and I really admire you. My I kindly suggest that, instead of "developing you own transcription method" (as you say, you just imagine it) and then comparing your "just imagined" method to others "just imagined" method it might be useful to study a professional transcription method, like the one at the link above. I have found this one:

http://www.thai-language.com/

.... to be the most accurate of all the ones "pinned" in the TV Thai language section.

I am pleased we now understand together why there is some small confusion. Thanks for letting me know the method you use - Bambi's Imagination! You are so excellent!!!

Your sincerely,

Mr. Farang

Edited August 25, 2005 by Mr. Farang

[Richard W]

I have noticed that when you terminate your English spellings for example, "Khaaw" you transcribe as "Kor" or "Khor"... however, in English, "Khaaw"  or "Kaw" is correct, as an English spelling with an "R" at the end would not sound correct for this vowel.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They sound fine if you speak the Queen's English.

I often use such spellings as the Nation uses them in the names of government forms.

Richard.

[meadish_sweetball]

We have had transcription discussions on the board before, and the standard that was proposed then has not been adopted - people are rather territorial about their own systems as it seems.

It is a more or less impossible task to base a working transcription of Thai on English spelling, simply because there are too many dialects of English confusing the issue - base it on American English and the Brits, Aussies and Kiwis will mispronounce and vice versa.

In RP British English (the Queen's English) which is taught in many places, the 'r's are silent, hence the use of 'kor' or 'khor' for ข make perfect sense for anyone speaking that dialect or a similar one.

Your suggestion with 'aw' is a good solution (especially from an American standpoint), but it fails to provide a consistent system that reflects vowels and consonant sounds in the original Thai text. The IPA based systems used by the AUA instruction books, Farland's and Mary Haas's dictionaries use 'w' to represent ว. With the system you are suggesting (and the one in thai-language.com) you have to either use 'o' to represent ว in for example เขา (khao or kao), or you will already have a consistency problem. I personally don't think thai-language.com have the best solution (perhaps because I am neither American nor British) - I prefer the IPA systems, because once learned, they are more consistent, and can be applied to other languages as well.

I am not sure there is much point in arguing about transcription. What learners really need is to learn proper Thai spelling; this must be the end goal. What 'crutch' you use along the way is up to you, basically - whatever works for you and does not confuse you or make you mispronounce things is good.

It would be nice with a standard transcription used in the forum, but I have no hopes of seeing one in the near future, and it might put people off from posting as well, or it would mean somebody would have to volunteer to edit other peoples' transcription.

I'd reckon you'd want to use 'Luuey' rather than 'Sak noi' in your situation there sweedish. (sorry no Thai keyboard today).

When your wife says something with 'sak noi' at the end of a sentance, in all likelyhood she is actually asking or in some contexts mini-pleading for you do something for her.

eg: Take your shoes of in the house sak noi

or: Don't burp at the table sak noi

she is reaffirming something she has probably asked you already. If she asks it for the first time, the 'sak' will not be used, only the 'noi'

I do use เลย myself; what I wrote above is an accurate representation of what my GF says in that situation (native Thai, lived in Thailand all her life, university educated, 30 yrs old). It is possible she muddled up the sentence of course, but this is not the first time I have heard her use 'sak noi' in similar sentence constructions, and it would make me surprised if she makes a flat out mistake (unless it is a rather widespread non-standard usage or a dialect variation). In your examples, 'sak noi' is used in imperative sentences, in my example it is a more colloquial alternative to เลย and can be translated as 'even in the slightest'. Is anyone else familiar with this usage?

mai chai sa noi (sak noi) ไม่ใช่ (ซะหน่อย) สักหน่อย = no, its not true

This is the same type of usage as in my sentence, confirmed by Bambi, so it appears my GF is not the only one who uses it.

[Johpa]

mai chai sa noi (sak noi) ไม่ใช่ (ซะหน่อย) สักหน่อย = no, its not true

This is the same type of usage as in my sentence, confirmed by Bambi, so it appears my GF is not the only one who uses it.

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Geez, I have can't recall ever hearing "mai chai sak noi". If one wants to emphasize that something is "not true" then you are likely to hear "mai chai lok" which emphasizes holding a contrary opinion.

[samran]

mai chai sa noi (sak noi) ไม่ใช่ (ซะหน่อย) สักหน่อย = no, its not true

This is the same type of usage as in my sentence, confirmed by Bambi, so it appears my GF is not the only one who uses it.

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Geez, I have can't recall ever hearing "mai chai sak noi". If one wants to emphasize that something is "not true" then you are likely to hear "mai chai lok" which emphasizes holding a contrary opinion.

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I can't recall hearing it either, and simply to my ears it sounds 'wrong', if you know what I mean.

Having said that, language changes, and so does colloquial use of it, so there must be something to what Sweedish says.

[katana]

Google lists 217 hits for the phrase ไม่ใช่ซะหน่อย.

http://tinyurl.com/9szor

[Mr. Farang]

mai chai sa noi (sak noi) ไม่ใช่ (ซะหน่อย) สักหน่อย = no, its not true

This is the same type of usage as in my sentence, confirmed by Bambi, so it appears my GF is not the only one who uses it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Geez, I have can't recall ever hearing "mai chai sak noi". If one wants to emphasize that something is "not true" then you are likely to hear "mai chai lok" which emphasizes holding a contrary opinion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can't recall hearing it either, and simply to my ears it sounds 'wrong', if you know what I mean.

Having said that, language changes, and so does colloquial use of it, so there must be something to what Sweedish says.

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This phrase is perfectly reasonable, a very polite way to say "no" , in a way, kindly requesting the other person to accept your apology for saying "no" in advance by softening the "no" signficantly. I have never used it, but will now. Thank you!

[meadish_sweetball]

I have tried this phrase on four Thai friends, who all claim it to be in common usage among Thais.

A word of warning: Actually, 'sak noi' in this context does not soften the utterance or make it more polite, on the contrary, it means exactly what I stated above: "not at all, not in the slightest, not even one little bit", so

'mai chai sak noi' means 'That's completely wrong' / 'No way' (to be understood as 'That is not right' = mai chai '(even) a little bit' (sak noi).

'Chan mai dai phuud yaang nan sak noi' = 'I didn't say that at all.'

[Mr. Farang]

I have tried this phrase on four Thai friends, who all claim it to be in common usage among Thais.

A word of warning: Actually, 'sak noi' in this context does not soften the utterance or make it more polite, on the contrary, it means exactly what I stated above: "not at all, not in the slightest, not even one little bit", so

'mai chai sak noi' means 'That's completely wrong' / 'No way' (to be understood as 'That is not right' = mai chai '(even) a little bit' (sak noi).

'Chan mai dai phuud yaang nan sak noi' = 'I didn't say that at all.'

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Thank for further explaination. I've asked my Thai girlfriend about this and she agrees that "sak noi" does not make it more polite, as I thought. However, she disagrees that "sak noi" makes it more "stronger" or "not in the slightest" or "not even a little bit"....

So, probing further, to seek clarity and usage, I asked her "what does it mean and how to use it" and she says "you can use sometimes".... and I reply use "for fun?" or "when in a hurry?" or "for emphasis?" and she says "no".... just uses sometimes, if you want, Thai people will understand you - its OK" :-)

After continue probing we simply laughed and I changed the subject ;-)

[katana]

I asked some Thais about this too. In negative sentences, like eg MAI CHAI SA NOI ไม่ใช่ซะหน่อย, some Thais said it's a mild intensifier (for emphasis), as Meadish says. (Although others said it's not an intensifier, just makes the sentence eg 'more colourful'. )

With no MAI ไม่ in the sentence, it's a softener eg Bambina's example earlier:

GIN NAM SA NOI MAI กินน้ำซะหน่อยไหม - Would you like a little water?

Anyone (Thais?) care to comment further on this?

[BambinA]

I asked some Thais about this too. In negative sentences, like eg MAI CHAI SAI NOI ไม่ใช่ซะหน่อย, some Thais said it's a mild intensifier (for emphasis), as Meadish says. (Although others said it's not an intensifier, just makes the sentence eg 'more colourful'.  )

With no MAI ไม่ in the sentence, it's a softener eg Bambina's example earlier:

GIN NAM SA NOI MAI กินน้ำซะหน่อยไหม - Would you like a little water?

Anyone (Thais?) care to comment further on this? 

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katana and Meadish_sweetball are correct