What Constitutes Working In 'Thailand?'

[mystwoodcol]

If you accompany him to the actual business meetings, it can be considered working.

So if I am not traveling with him to business meetings just on tour with him it might not be considered working?

[Forkinhades]

If you accompany him to the actual business meetings, it can be considered working.

So if I am not traveling with him to business meetings just on tour with him it might not be considered working?

Go speak with a lawyer or keep 20,000 baht in your pocket at all times

[venturalaw]

If you accompany him to the actual business meetings, it can be considered working.

So if I am not traveling with him to business meetings just on tour with him it might not be considered working?

You need not travel with him to be considered performing 'work' in Thailand. Providing advice based upon your experience is work in Thailand:

Work Permit Application

1. Definition

....“ Work ” means to engage in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits."

http://eng.mol.go.th/doe_service01.html

Edited January 30, 2011 by venturalaw

[trogers]

Any act that will deprive a local of his or her vocation. Thus, bathing yourself is considered working.

[softgeorge]

Next time the wife asks me to mow the lawn or take the rubbish out I will simply have to refuse and tell her she has to do everything herself as I don't have a work visa. God I love this country it is heaven on earth.

[trogers]

Next time the wife asks me to mow the lawn or take the rubbish out I will simply have to refuse and tell her she has to do everything herself as I don't have a work visa. God I love this country it is heaven on earth.

Same excuse can be given for your daily trips to the turkish bath...

[mystwoodcol]

If you accompany him to the actual business meetings, it can be considered working.

So if I am not traveling with him to business meetings just on tour with him it might not be considered working?

You need not travel with him to be considered performing 'work' in Thailand. Providing advice based upon your experience is work in Thailand:

Work Permit Application

1. Definition

....“ Work ” means to engage in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits."

http://eng.mol.go.th..._service01.html

Well it looks like the next time he asks me something over a bowl of noodles I will have to refuse to answer on the grounds it might get me deported, love this country

[on-on]

Any act that will deprive a local of his or her vocation. Thus, bathing yourself is considered working.

Honest to God typical Thai Visa wisdom. "Me mate once got hauled off to the IDC for shakin' off his own dingaling in the WC! It's true!" Eventually I have to come to one of these meetups to meet all these people in person, because in about five years here no single person I've met or known has ever had any of the alarmist experiences of Thai Visa's Visa forum crew who, apparently, are arrested on a regular basis for things like nailing pictures to a wall, sitting among customers at their bar or speaking English to a Thai person without a teaching work permit.

[Tatsujin]

Honest to God typical Thai Visa wisdom. "Me mate once got hauled off to the IDC for shakin' off his own dingaling in the WC! It's true!" Eventually I have to come to one of these meetups to meet all these people in person, because in about five years here no single person I've met or known has ever had any of the alarmist experiences of Thai Visa's Visa forum crew who, apparently, are arrested on a regular basis for things like nailing pictures to a wall, sitting among customers at their bar or speaking English to a Thai person without a teaching work permit.

The point is not whether you will or will not be arrested for "working" illegally here. The original thread was about WHAT is considered "work" here and pretty much everything can be construed as "work" by the wording of the law.

We all know "what" the law says, most here however seem to want to find excuses for NOT following the law to justify their actions, and that's fine and up to them. Is it likely these people will be caught, arrested, fined, jailed, blacklisted and deported? NO. Is it possible, YES. Does it happen, YES. Does it happen often, NO.

As I stated on another thread here:

If you don't want to jump through all the hoops, if you want to work 'under the radar', if you want to do things here you would never consider doing in the West, then go for it . . . just don't come back whining when you get caught out. Having personally met a number of foreigners who HAVE got caught out and won't be returning to Thailand any time soon (make that "never") because of it, I try to do things as 'straight' as I can.

Edited January 31, 2011 by Tatsujin

[talar]

Khun Tatsujin,

So suppose the following scenario.

If you run a one man company in Europe where taxes and all are properly paid for, but then want to spent some time in Thailand, it is inevitable not to work.

This means officially you would need a working permit, as being in Thailand working for your own company, even while the work is all online and no business will be done with a thai person or company, still constitutes as work by the letter of the law.

The thing is that from what I understand here and read elsewhere is that you can only get a WP from a thai company.

So even if you want to do it correctly, you cannot?

[venturalaw]

Khun Tatsujin,

So suppose the following scenario.

If you run a one man company in Europe where taxes and all are properly paid for, but then want to spent some time in Thailand, it is inevitable not to work.

This means officially you would need a working permit, as being in Thailand working for your own company, even while the work is all online and no business will be done with a thai person or company, still constitutes as work by the letter of the law.

The thing is that from what I understand here and read elsewhere is that you can only get a WP from a thai company.

So even if you want to do it correctly, you cannot?

You could form your own company in Thailand (therefore it is a Thai company) that would allow you to work in collaboration with your company overseas. I know of people who have done this.

[talar]

....

So even if you want to do it correctly, you cannot?

You could form your own company in Thailand (therefore it is a Thai company) that would allow you to work in collaboration with your company overseas. I know of people who have done this.

Ok, but forming your own company in Thailand by a farang is pretty difficult from what I've understood and opens a whole range of new questions.

Does the 50k Baht per month rule apply?

To be able to start a thai company you either need to be married to a thai wife or have some amount of money on a thai bank account. Not sure on the amount, read things like 2 million Baht, 10 million Baht.

Read also in the past that you would have to employ at least 5 thai residents permanently in order to even be able to start a thai company.

thanks

[jazzbo]

For the situation described above post #220 I would suggest that you spend enough time ex-Thailand in neighboring countries such that you could say that your 'work' was all done outside of Thailand and your time spent in the Kingdom is purely for enjoyment -- that and keep a low profile.

[Tatsujin]

Khun Tatsujin,

So suppose the following scenario.

If you run a one man company in Europe where taxes and all are properly paid for, but then want to spent some time in Thailand, it is inevitable not to work.

This means officially you would need a working permit, as being in Thailand working for your own company, even while the work is all online and no business will be done with a thai person or company, still constitutes as work by the letter of the law.

The thing is that from what I understand here and read elsewhere is that you can only get a WP from a thai company.

So even if you want to do it correctly, you cannot?

Talar: Even if you want to do it correctly, you cannot . . . why do you say that? What's so hard about setting up a Thai Limited Company and working here legitimately? Many, many people do it very easily and with few problems. Just check the threads to see the rules about setting up a Limited Company here. The rules are different depending where you are from however. Check the U.S-Thai Treaty of Amity for example which applies to those from the USA. BOI approved companies also allows for more relaxed rules on the number of Thais employed for example. See here for details.

As a hypothetical scenario, if you were a resident in the UK (as an example), and you knew of a 'foreigner' who had come to visit on a Tourist Visa and was busily working away on his laptop earning money locally or overseas and not paying taxes anywhere, do you not think the UK Govt would be upset with this? They would be and don't allow it, same as in Thailand.

As with everywhere of course, there are numerous rules and laws but how many of them are actually enforced is another matter. If people choose NOT to follow the law wherever they visit or reside, then they will potentially face the consequences of those actions. That's their choice.

I think the question is more whether people can be bothered to do it right or not, rather than whether it can be done or not.

Edited January 31, 2011 by Tatsujin

[tombkk]

Any act that will deprive a local of his or her vocation. Thus, bathing yourself is considered working.

Who says that? Kindly provide a link to the law you are referring to.

[tombkk]

Khun Tatsujin,

So suppose the following scenario.

If you run a one man company in Europe where taxes and all are properly paid for, but then want to spent some time in Thailand, it is inevitable not to work.

This means officially you would need a working permit, as being in Thailand working for your own company, even while the work is all online and no business will be done with a thai person or company, still constitutes as work by the letter of the law.

The thing is that from what I understand here and read elsewhere is that you can only get a WP from a thai company.

So even if you want to do it correctly, you cannot?

If you run a company in Europe and just come for vacation and have to take care of emails and make some phone calls, you won't be arrested. In fact, today's managers and business owner are expected (by their customers) to be reachable at all time. Technically, this requires a WP in Thailand if you follow the letter of the law. However, I am not aware of a single case in which the foreign manager was arrested for doing his emails while on vacation in Thailand. Probably because this would kill the tourist industry.

However, if you live in Thailand as a "tourist", doing visa runs to extend your stays but bvasically live here, it's a different situation. You are not on vacation any more and you are not a tourist, you are making a living with the intent to stay here as long as possible from the revenues you make in Europe. This, of course, requires you to follow the regulations about working in Thailand.

Is this really difficult to understand? The Thai law makes sense to me.

[talar]

Talar: Even if you want to do it correctly, you cannot . . . why do you say that? What's so hard about setting up a Thai Limited Company and working here legitimately? Many, many people do it very easily and with few problems. Just check the threads to see the rules about setting up a Limited Company here. The rules are different depending where you are from however. Check the U.S-Thai Treaty of Amity for example which applies to those from the USA. BOI approved companies also allows for more relaxed rules on the number of Thais employed for example.

As a hypothetical scenario, if you were a resident in the UK (as an example), and you knew of a 'foreigner' who had come to visit on a Tourist Visa and was busily working away on his laptop earning money locally or overseas and not paying taxes anywhere, do you not think the UK Govt would be upset with this? They would be and don't allow it, same as in Thailand.

As with everywhere of course, there are numerous rules and laws but how many of them are actually enforced is another matter. If people choose NOT to follow the law wherever they visit or reside, then they will potentially face the consequences of those actions. That's their choice.

I think the question is more whether people can be bothered to do it right or not, rather than whether it can be done or not.

I am asking to get info for doing it correctly, not for finding excuses.

Thanks for the links and details, I will study those.

re. the "you cannot" quote. It's maybe because I just don't know all rules yet, there's a lot of them and they are not always very clear or logical.

If you need 10 million Baht and have to create a company and keep 4 thai employed for being in Thailand for 6 to 12 months, then the "you cannot" refers to needing a lot of capital. You need to have more as 10 million Baht in order to do that then. (I think the real amount is 2 million? and even then it is a LOT of money for a small one man company to put overseas on a bank account)

Starting a new company for 6 to 12 months is also a lot of trouble to go through.

thanks

[talar]

However, if you live in Thailand as a "tourist", doing visa runs to extend your stays but bvasically live here, it's a different situation. You are not on vacation any more and you are not a tourist, you are making a living with the intent to stay here as long as possible from the revenues you make in Europe. This, of course, requires you to follow the regulations about working in Thailand.

Is this really difficult to understand? The Thai law makes sense to me.

As mentioned in the first post, I understand it falls under work and needing a WP.

I am not talking about moving permanently to Thailand, just for a limited time frame. I understand that it makes no difference for the rules.

thanks!

[jazzbo]

Post # 220 So even if you want to do it correctly, you cannot? Shy of establishing your own Thai company, being employed by another Thai company, or contracting for services with a Thai programming company that is a perfectly accurate statement assuming that one considers other options as 'finding excuses' ...

It seems the gentlemen has a priori come to the conclusion that being an upstanding citizen of the Realm there must be some 'correct' way to do this in Thailand that meets all his given parameters ... but Toto, we're not in Kansas anymore.

[Naam]

to the best of my knowledge you need a work permit before you can have sex with your wife, prepare food for your dogs, buying vegetables in a super market or pulling a drawer open to select a pair of socks you will wear.

some of you beancounters provide an endless stream of amusement for me. keep up the good job!

[jazzbo]

Kuhn Naam -- It becomes interesting for us bean-counters on this Forum when you are presented with these type conundrums:

I do not qualify for any long-term visa or extension of visa to remain in Thailand; how can I stay long-term in Thailand?

I cannot legally work in Thailand without a work permit and I cannot -- short of starting / registering my own Thai company or being employed by an existing Thai company -- obtain a work permit; how can I legally work in Thailand?

[Nuff Said]

Kuhn Naam -- It becomes interesting for us bean-counters on this Forum when you are presented with these type conundrums:

I do not qualify for any long-term visa or extension of visa to remain in Thailand; how can I stay long-term in Thailand?

I cannot legally work in Thailand without a work permit and I cannot -- short of starting / registering my own Thai company or being employed by an existing Thai company -- obtain a work permit; how can I legally work in Thailand?

If what Namm said was true, few visitors to Thailand would even get as far as customs at the airport, as those with checked in luggage would be arrested by immigration police for not emplying a porter, and lifting their own bags off the carousel. Enough of the daftness. There's a huge difference between working and simply carrying out your normal daily personal activities.

Jazzbo. You answered your own question in the last paragraph of your post. You eliminated both possibilities, then said 'what can I do?' But if you live in or visit Europe, you could tap up the Thai Consulate in Hull regarding the possibility of a Multiple Entry Non Immigratnt 'O' visa. They deal with postal applications from throughout the EU.

Thailand's labour laws are designed to prevent foreigners from taking Thai's jobs, by listing occupations, most of which are unskilled, in which they cannot engage in under any curcumstances, and ensuring those in permitted occupations such as teaching have the appropriate paperwork. But they are not intended to persucute the vacationing salesman who's boss insists he checks and answers his work E-Mail and take business phone calls when on holiday, something that would be well nigh impossible to enforce.

But there's one thing that we should never overlook, and that is those who are entrusted with enforcing the labour laws so often betray those they are intended to protect.

[Naam]

Kuhn Naam -- It becomes interesting for us bean-counters on this Forum when you are presented with these type conundrums:

I do not qualify for any long-term visa or extension of visa to remain in Thailand; how can I stay long-term in Thailand?

I cannot legally work in Thailand without a work permit and I cannot -- short of starting / registering my own Thai company or being employed by an existing Thai company -- obtain a work permit; how can I legally work in Thailand?

i don't have solutions for your problems Khun Jazzbo and my sarcastic remarks are directed at those who interprete thai law to an extent which is ridiculous. according to the latter the majority of foreigners who live in Thailand based on a retirement visa violate Thai laws by just handling their investments via internet or phone. if their "that's the law" theories apply i'd need a work permit in order to instruct my bankers to buy or sell an asset no matter whether i make profit or loss.

a renowned law firm claims on Thaivisa that a foreign director who signs a tax return for a Thai company needs a work permit if he signs the documents in Thailand but not when he signs them abroad. a signature requires a work permit? my àss!

Edited February 2, 2011 by Naam

[jazzbo]

Kuhn Naam -- While it may generally be the case that there are in this Thai 'universe' some persons who cannot legally stay long-term in the Kingdom to their heart's content and there may also be persons who cannot legally operate their UK/EU/USA based websites or web development businesses while remaining in perpetuum within the Kingdom, nobody is willing to reckon that such person might be themselves.

... just like in Thailand that no car is willing to be the next-to-the-last car through the intersection.

[Rastaputin]

Take photography as an example.

A hobby, a favorite pastime of the typical tourist.

As well as a respected art form, and a profession.

Doing Fotography in Thailand while on holiday?

I would assume the tourist with his phone camera would not be considered working.

What about the pro shooter who also uses a phone cam (iPhone) and later publishes a book?

Is he working as he intends to sell the photos, i.e. he is doing it for money?

Does that set him apart from the tourist?

In the words of the Thai law: NO!

Does the high qualification of the Pro set him apart from the noob tourist snapper? Is that stated in the Thai work law? is there any hint in the law that could be used to construct the difference? NO!

So, what distinguishes the pro with the 10000 $ Nikon set from auntie Martha with her Kodak snap camera? Why is the first one (illegally) working and she ain't, when both snap away at a common friend's wedding in Thailand?

It ain't the payment. (that's the law). Also the Pro might well do it for free for a friend. And auntie gets a free meal and drinks, too. So: What is it?

Or are both legal? Or both illegal?

[Soutpeel]

Take photography as an example.

A hobby, a favorite pastime of the typical tourist.

As well as a respected art form, and a profession.

Doing Fotography in Thailand while on holiday?

I would assume the tourist with his phone camera would not be considered working.

What about the pro shooter who also uses a phone cam (iPhone) and later publishes a book?

Is he working as he intends to sell the photos, i.e. he is doing it for money?

Does that set him apart from the tourist?

In the words of the Thai law: NO!

Does the high qualification of the Pro set him apart from the noob tourist snapper? Is that stated in the Thai work law? is there any hint in the law that could be used to construct the difference? NO!

So, what distinguishes the pro with the 10000 $ Nikon set from auntie Martha with her Kodak snap camera? Why is the first one (illegally) working and she ain't, when both snap away at a common friend's wedding in Thailand?

It ain't the payment. (that's the law). Also the Pro might well do it for free for a friend. And auntie gets a free meal and drinks, too. So: What is it?

Or are both legal? Or both illegal?

Dependent on which official is interpreting the law both scenarios could be interpreted as working or maybe neither are interpreted at working....so the answer is yes, no, maybe...there is no hint in the law, as has been said on numerous occassions on this thread, the definition of working is left to the specific official interpreting the law.

[Nuff Said]

Tourists taking holiday snaps, regardless of the quality of the camera, have nothing to fear in my opinion, unless snapping away in prohibited locations.

But a professional photographer, who enters Thailand masquerading as a tourist but with the sole intention of taking photo's for publication, and without the appropriate visa and paperwork, is, in my opinion, working, and should have the relevent visa and documents, presumably the same as those issued to journalists.

It all comes down to what is considered to be simply going about your normal personal daily affairs. Taking holiday snaps, not working, but doing a photo shoot in pursuance your profession, yes.

Coinsidering that many tourists have very sophisticated cameras, it would be well nigh impossible for immigration to weed out professional photographers who simply mingle in with the crowds.

Edited February 4, 2011 by Nuff Said

[jazzbo]

To embellish upon Kuhn NS's opinion above at #237 "It all comes down to what is considered by the relevant authorities to be ..." your intentions while in the Kingdom once your activities have been brought by some circumstance to the relevant authority's attention... and that might apply to most any situation not just photography.

[ESB7]

People work on he black market the world over....its no different in Thailand......the Thai wordhippers really should get a grip of their senses

[jazzbo]

People work on the black market the world over ... Yes but persons the world over mostly work in the black market in their own country ... you are vulnerable in Thailand as an alien in the albeit rare event you are challenged by the authorities but also when each 3 months or year you have to get yourself a new visa or extension thereof ... and a lot of people are now it seems having their senses gripped for them.