Thai Police Launch Major Crackdown On Drugs

[Deeral]

Silom has had raids nothing targeting westerners only local Thais. Seen Silom Soi 2 and 4 raided and a number of arrests in DJ Station.

Silom Police are offering cash rewards for info on local Drug Dealers and it seems to have worked with word that the street has dried up considerably.

I have never seen it this tough and its good to see its truly working. I know of 6 staff in restaurants and Bars that failed pee tests and got arrested and cant get out for 3 months. Only problem is 1 of them is on HIV medication and that often triggers a positive result for drugs when I fact they have not taken anything illegal. Thai Police don't seem to understand this and further education is required.

Its suprising however the amount of boys in Silom that pass the pee test and are not worried. Drug usage amongst the Gay Silom crowd is much less then people think.

They offer cash rewards? I'd hate to point out the wrong protected man...

"its good to see its truly working" - what an absurd thing to say!

this is a real ostrich-head-in-the-sand view - "if I can't see it, it can't be there!"

Try to establish that you would have to come back in one two or three years - at least! - this is what epitomises so many people's attitude to "drugs" - they seem to think that there is a quick solution to a black and white situation - - it really is sad that seemingly rational even educated people should be so ill-informed on an issue that affects such a broad spectrum of society.

Edited January 9, 2011 by Deeral

[Deeral]

I have to add that I find it very discouraging considering there have been some pretty well-informed posts on this thread that after all that this poster still manages to ignore everything and come up with such a banal and inane comment.

Edited January 9, 2011 by Deeral

[MaiChai]

The 'other' newspaper reported a drugs crackdown in Little Africa soi on Sukhumwit soi 3. They did not say when; assume last few days? Why has this been allowed to go on for so long under the noses of the police?

Police seem very vigilent enforcing the law at the moment; more so than the normal end/beginning of month money collection exercises. Thus my advice is make sure you 100% legal/don't drink drive/etc. Police also activly targeting foreigners in tourist areas. Maybe leave the car/bike at home if you have a night out and take a taxi instead? Maybe this is the Thailand of the future?

[TheyCallmeScooter]

Um noose, I wrote out what I hope is a glorious rant, outlining almost every aspect of the logical fail that is Prohibition, but it's slightly over the word limit. Only slightly....

Below is a mere excerpt. A tiny excerpt even...sigh.

----------------------------------

You can execute every drug user, abuser, supplier, manufacturer you can find. You will need to keep on killing for a very long time. Because until you wipe out a pretty massive % of humanity, or until you recode the human genome, or until they develop a medication which (selectively) erases memories of trauma...then people will continue to try to live without pain. As surprising and alien that concept must be to most of you. I don't mean to shock your socks off, but I'm not telling tales when I assure you that someone who is trying to live in chronic emotional pain, is going to try and find ways to alleviate that pain. You can call it self-medication, you can call it escapism, you can call it recreational. At the end of the day, if everything was acceptably painless, it's pretty unlikely that someone would feel the need to self-medicate, escape or recreationally use illegal drugs. But don't listen to me, of course. Try for yourselves! Execute away, threaten death for all who even think about drugs. Kill and slaughter those who fail to comply. Worst case scenario, you'll have heaps of fun. Hopefully, at some point, you'll make the startling realisation that the human psyche - when enduring pain - is simply not wired to focus on further unknowns, regardless of how unfair and disproportionate your threatened penalties may be. Users will use on. You would too, if you felt (or had the empathy to understand the nature of) their pain.

And unless you plan on eradicating poverty, hunger and anything which might give someone the incentive to Supply that overwhelming Demand, you will have people flooding into that vacuum. The vacuum created by governments too stupid to understand that you eradicate poverty by simply outlawing it. And you cannot simply ban ignorance or stupidity either. You can rant, threaten, cajole or execute everyone you please, and the inability of the desperately hungry or desperately stupid of our race to think about anything in the future instead of whatever is happening in the present (where they are desperate or starving) is best exemplified in this recent example:

Thai Mule Swallows 1200 Ecstasy Pills, Indonesia Considering Death Penalty

Oh, the evil is simply too much. This criminal Thai mule, probably hyped up on a cocktail of killer drugs, clearly intending to kill our children with these pills he was smuggling over a border where there are stern warnings anyone attempting such a thing would be executed. And yet, he forged on regardless!

Hmm! We need harsher penalties, even stricter laws. What other options do we possibly have? We need to teach these criminals a lesson! They need to know the punishment will be grossly disproportional to their crime, which isn't so much a crime as an example of tragic exploitation. What will can we do? We must do something! Our message needs to be stronger than "Look, you're going to be executed if you do this. We're not even playing yo."

Not strong enough. Perhaps....you should torture them? It would make as much sense. And it would be equally as ineffective.

Risks aren't considered by desperate, ignorant or hungry people. They will swallow 1200 ecstasy tablets and attempt to nervously ferry them over a border, risking certain death, for the princely sum of $600. The risks involved are irrelevant. The stupid and the desperate and the starving only think in terms of their immediate present. Threatening them with outrageously horrific penalties? You will achieve nothing. Because no matter how unjust and disproportionate (or even how...terminal / final) the penalties might be, they're simply ignored because the Future is not important to such an individual, who is battling through the Present.

Anyone who thinks it's somehow rational (let alone fair or just) to execute someone either desperate enough, hungry enough or stupid enough to do something like that for $600? Speak now, please.

Anyone who thinks the killing of humans who are so obviously a victim....that person is a vile animal who does not deserve the liberty they have. And I will argue this logical position until the day I die, with anyone who wishes to discuss the issue with me. And I will never lose. It would be impossible.

Because what I'm saying is the irrefutable Truth, and infuriatingly simple.

[ginjag]

Thai police crack down on drugs, Hopefully things are moving slowly in the right direction, but such a vast distance yet, as in a few of the most replied to posts, assumptions, logic, i,m right your wrong, correction here and there, battles of intelligence, so very long posts. As in English government we were taught to make it clear short and simple, other posters simply can't get a word in edgeways. discussions are good, this is thai police subject, they will have to get their act together not go on the rampage now and again

Edited January 9, 2011 by cdnvic
removed excessive quotation

[hughben]

Did they do a bust in Soi Lagos in Bangkok?

Someone mentioned something to me, but no news report on this site?

[TheyCallmeScooter]

Thai police crack down on drugs, Hopefully things are moving slowly in the right direction, but such a vast distance yet, as in a few of the most replied to posts, assumptions, logic, i,m right your wrong, correction here and there, battles of intelligence, so very long posts. As in English government we were taught to make it clear short and simple, other posters simply can't get a word in edgeways. discussions are good, this is thai police subject, they will have to get their act together not go on the rampage now and again

They may as well punch air. Your hope is irrationally misplaced. Things are obviously going the other way. The vastness will increase, when that happens. Nothing I write is assumed logic. It's all supported by facts and evidence, much of which I provide which can contribute to lengths of posts. There is no justification for brevity unless you're attempting wit, but virtue of the impossibility in making anything lengthy witty throughout. Unless you're Oscar Wilde, perhaps. I haven't once seen any posters fail to manage. Rather they simply don't read in order to proffer their grossly inferior words in edgeways. Discussions are good, I don't have many of them. Discussions require the reading comprehension on the other side to be in existence. And some level of willingness to improve their understanding. This is a Thai police thread, yes. They do need to get their act together, on a whole stack of pretty important issues. I agree rampaging police are rarely a good thing. But whether or not they rampage, or whether or not they get their act together, the fact remains (which I explain, leaving no potential for doubt) that...

They may as well punch air. For all the good it will do on this issue.

It would be far better if they did punch air. There would be far less miscarriages of their 'justice'.

My posts are all ON topic, in this thread anyway.

Police should not launch crackdowns on drugs, whether major or minor. Drugs can be instantly taken back from the criminals who control the industry any time the government wishes.

For the same reason that you don't buy your alcohol from violent criminals. Capiche?

[cdnvic]

The topic is Thai police launching a crackdown on drugs, not a general discussion on prohibition in the US and Europe. Please discuss the topic and stop simply pasting info at each other.

[TheyCallmeScooter]

Roger that.

For those who hold out hopes of this recent crackdown being the crackdown which will swing the tide of this losing war our way (perhaps the others simply weren't major enough), can you answer these questions for me please?

1. Have the Thai police ever - at any point - launched any form of crackdown (major or minor) previously?

2. If they have, can you outline the new, improved variables which will make this crackdown successful, when all others have clearly failed?

----------

Some guy once said "The definition of insanity to do the same thing over and over, expecting a different result."

I do not think the Thai police are insane. I think they are a political option, employed by politicians under pressure from the more brilliant of our societies who demand that someone "just do something". Forced to "just do something", but prevented from doing anything that might actually do, the police are sent in to go through the rigmarole of the charade.

Unless of course, this is the crackdown to end all crackdowns. I remember a war that was similarly believed to be something similar. That war ended in 1918.

***Spoiler: It didn't live up to it's name. Something happened a decade or two later than suggested it was maybe the opposite of the war to end all wars.***

[Valentine]

The kingpins, drug lords, whatever you want to call them, until a good number of these are arrested, thrown in jail &/or executed there will never be a decrease in the drug problem as there will always be far too many desperate, gullible people willing to participate in some form or other. Unfortunately these type of people always seem to be untouchable.

[ginjag]

The topic is Thai police launching a crackdown on drugs, not a general discussion on prohibition in the US and Europe. Please discuss the topic and stop simply pasting info at each other.

Thanks cdnvic, scooters forum it was getting to be, full of their own importance. many posters I noticed were not getting involved like before. most speak from what they believe others rely on books.

[Deeral]

somebody mentioned "executing" the "kingpins" - Never gonna happen - you do realise that could be some very high ranking people in the power elite?

[TheyCallmeScooter]

The kingpins, drug lords, whatever you want to call them, until a good number of these are arrested, thrown in jail &/or executed there will never be a decrease in the drug problem

somebody mentioned "executing" the "kingpins" - Never gonna happen - you do realise that could be some very high ranking people in the power elite?

I don't disagree with either of you as to the nature of the Untouchables, but in a hypothetical where they were not, do you really believe that removing a kingpin or a drug lord actually results in....? some kind of solution?

History (and sheer common sense) has shown ALWAYS that when you remove the drug lord, surprise surprise, another drug lord is promoted into his place. What else could you expect would be the result?

I'm stunned that people believe this is still a Supply issue? Remove the Supply, and you cannot remove the Demand. All you do is open up a spot for promotion in the Supply chain.

---------

@ ginjag: How could you really believe that I would 'shout-out' a discussion. I adore discussion. But if the opposing side is discussing poorly and using faux logic and failing to provide any supporting evidence...am I supposed to just accept their flawed opinions purely to assuage their ignorance?

I'm compelled to present reasoned arguments, with actual logic and with supporting evidence, to counter their beliefs. If their beliefs had any substance whatsoever, they would have no problem making me look a fool. I know this, I make myself appear the fool often without any assistance whatsoever.

[jayjay0]

The kingpins, drug lords, whatever you want to call them, until a good number of these are arrested, thrown in jail &/or executed there will never be a decrease in the drug problem

somebody mentioned "executing" the "kingpins" - Never gonna happen - you do realise that could be some very high ranking people in the power elite?

I don't disagree with either of you as to the nature of the Untouchables, but in a hypothetical where they were not, do you really believe that removing a kingpin or a drug lord actually results in....? some kind of solution?

History (and sheer common sense) has shown ALWAYS that when you remove the drug lord, surprise surprise, another drug lord is promoted into his place. What else could you expect would be the result?

I'm stunned that people believe this is still a Supply issue? Remove the Supply, and you cannot remove the Demand. All you do is open up a spot for promotion in the Supply chain.

---------

@ ginjag: How could you really believe that I would 'shout-out' a discussion. I adore discussion. But if the opposing side is discussing poorly and using faux logic and failing to provide any supporting evidence...am I supposed to just accept their flawed opinions purely to assuage their ignorance?

I'm compelled to present reasoned arguments, with actual logic and with supporting evidence, to counter their beliefs. If their beliefs had any substance whatsoever, they would have no problem making me look a fool. I know this, I make myself appear the fool often without any assistance whatsoever.

I would have to agree with you for the most part.

But when it comes to remove the supply I would say remove the on the street dealer. There will not always be some one willing to step in and take there place. The drugs will still be available but a little harder to get. The problem with my idea is they would have to be consistent with it. When one go's down and another step's in to take there place remove him also. After about three of these it will become a lot harder to replace them with some one up to the job. And the side effect would be a lot of recreational users would cut way back and children might not find it such a good way of life.

Not that any one cares about wiping out the problem but look at Portugal they have eliminated quite a bit of it and saved a ton of money on law enforcement. A good start.

[BlackJack]

i must confess i had drugs too

alcohol and cigerettes

[Colabamumbai]

In reference to the percentage of dealers versus users being busted ( 0.5%), I think its is kind of sad and more dealers need to be focused on instead of these broad sweeps of the general public.

A mere user being arrested and incarcerated for their 'crime' is nothing less than an outrage and a crime against humanity. Incarcerating rather than medically treating the victims of addiction and despair is unfathomably cruel, illogically unproductive (even counter-productive), and an outrageous abuse of state power. The millions of innocents suffering in US penitentiaries is tantamount to a form of genocide (who cares if they are still breathing when they emerge - temporarily - from Hell, damaged and abused and broken by what they were forced to endure by the twin powers of ignorance and evil...in some obvious ways, it's even more cruel to impose a life of cyclical misery on them than if they were simply Thaksin'd).

In the US, it's a racist evil as well - not merely puritanical. For anyone somehow oblivious to the outrageously unacceptable, ludicrous and clearly racist disparity found in mandatory minimum sentences for possession of cocaine v possession of (freebase) cocaine. The former is snorted by upper-class whites (for the most part), the latter is smoked by lower-class blacks as it's all they can afford. Makes sense that one should be dealt with ONE HUNDRED TIMES harsher. Can you guess which one?

Distribution of just 5 grams of crack carries a minimum 5-year federal prison sentence, while for powder cocaine, distribution of 500 grams – 100 times the amount of crack cocaine – carries the same sentence.

The racial disparity in the application of mandatory minimum sentences for crack cocaine is particularly disturbing. African Americans comprise the vast majority of those convicted of crack cocaine offenses, while the majority of those convicted for powder cocaine offenses are white. This is true, despite the fact that whites and Hispanics form the majority of crack users. For example, in 2003, whites constituted 7.8% and African Americans constituted more than 80% of the defendants sentenced under the harsh federal crack cocaine laws, despite the fact that more than 66% of crack cocaine users in the United States are white or Hispanic. Due in large part to the sentencing disparity based on the form of the drug, African Americans serve substantially more time in prison for drug offenses than do whites.

Also due in large part to mandatory minimum sentences for drug offenses, from 1994 to 2003, the difference between the average time African American offenders served in prison increased by 77%, compared to an increase of 28% for white drug offenders. African Americans now serve virtually as much time in prison for a drug offense at 58.7 months, as whites do for a violent offense at 61.7 months.

I am addicted to cigarettes and it's an addiction that may well be the death of me, in the end. I had a fairly advantageous upbringing and access to an elitist education. I have no (good) excuse for my addiction (perhaps merely failure of society to properly educate on the dangers of nicotine addiction but hardly a mitigating excuse)...but now that I feel it's power....

Do people understand why addicts use drugs? It's for medicating purposes - they are in pain. Oh, it's convenient to imagine that they're all evil junkies, lazy and selfish and a scourge on society. I mean, when you're in pain, you don't go smash a car window and steal the entertainment system, hock it and go shoot up some smack right? You'd go see a doctor who'd prescribe licit medication.

But I'm not talking about that kind of pain. I'm talking about pain at a level where coping without the numbing effect of hard drug use is an untenable prospect for them. Pain of childhood abuse, pain of memories of unspeakable personal tragedies, pain of the shame of their failure to cope with what no one could be expected to cope with, pain of the frustrations that are inevitable when a child is not given adequate protection from a cruel world or not given adequate opportunities for education or who is forced to live in a world they simply cannot understand and expected to participate in a society they simply cannot identify with or relate to. This is why addicts abuse drugs. Someone nailed it earlier; "it beats living as a nobody earning 187 baht / day".

Society fails drug addicts when they were children. The pain of living sober becomes an untenable prospect. They seek relief but don't have access to support networks or fancy white-coated shrinks willing to prescribe licit meds which are as strong or even stronger than the impure filth available on the street. Before they know it, they're addicted. Yes, they're addicted to the drugs, but not really. They become addicted to the feeling of NO PAIN.

What despicable animals! They want to live without unspeakable pain? OMG! They should be incarcerated with rapists and murderers and the mentally insane. That will teach them a lesson, right...

The animals aren't the addicts who cannot control their DNA-generated survivalist cravings for....NO PAIN.

The animals are those who, having failed these tragic souls, then have the sheer nerve to punish the victims of society's immense failures. Anyone this stupid or this cruel, who believes their victims should be incarcerated for trying to medicate for the pain they suffer as a result...anyone that cold and twisted should be lined up and....well, let's be diplomatic and line them up for trial in The Hague. Because that is sheer Evil, whether or not their evil is due to ignorance or malice. If you disagree, please use logic to explain why, or kindly present yourself to F'offsville. I lost my best friend to this exact Evil, and I really do hate anyone who is that unforgivably evil and who is unwilling to argue in their own defence.

You know, just my opinion.

And true none the less. They say that the cause of all addictions is a closed heart. You touch on this in some paragraphs as to what causes our hearts to close, childhood trauma, memories, abuse etc. All addictions are a result of a closed heart, and that until we learn to truly open our hearts our need for external stimuli will continue, tobacco, alcohol and other illegal stronger blockers.

[cdnvic]

Removed off topic post on the US Justice system.

[TheyCallmeScooter]

I would have to agree with you for the most part.

But when it comes to remove the supply I would say remove the on the street dealer. There will not always be some one willing to step in and take there place.

If you were a Thai kid who grew up in abject poverty, living in squalor 'looking forward' to a back-breaking career as a labourer or a soul-destroying career as a menial worker making B 2000 / week...and there was an opportunity vacant to make B 20,000 / week doing absolutely nothing....would you think "oh, but if I get caught, I could go to prison"?

Do you really think that as long as the huge money is sitting there available dealing drugs, that no one will rush in to fill that position? When they have no future as it is, their children are starving, they're broken and battered physically and emotionally by poverty and illness...do you really think arresting 3 guys in an area will make the other 10,000 guys say "well, that's that, then...back to the construction sites for me"?

Not that any one cares about wiping out the problem but look at Portugal they have eliminated quite a bit of it and saved a ton of money on law enforcement. A good start.

It was a good start. But you're contradicting your own argument citing Portugal's decriminalisation.

They say that the cause of all addictions is a closed heart. You touch on this in some paragraphs as to what causes our hearts to close, childhood trauma, memories, abuse etc. All addictions are a result of a closed heart, and that until we learn to truly open our hearts our need for external stimuli will continue

May I request clarification on what you mean when you say "closed heart"?

Also, if one's heart was closed, how would one go about re-opening it?

[Colabamumbai]

I would have to agree with you for the most part.

But when it comes to remove the supply I would say remove the on the street dealer. There will not always be some one willing to step in and take there place.

If you were a Thai kid who grew up in abject poverty, living in squalor 'looking forward' to a back-breaking career as a labourer or a soul-destroying career as a menial worker making B 2000 / week...and there was an opportunity vacant to make B 20,000 / week doing absolutely nothing....would you think "oh, but if I get caught, I could go to prison"?

Do you really think that as long as the huge money is sitting there available dealing drugs, that no one will rush in to fill that position? When they have no future as it is, their children are starving, they're broken and battered physically and emotionally by poverty and illness...do you really think arresting 3 guys in an area will make the other 10,000 guys say "well, that's that, then...back to the construction sites for me"?

Not that any one cares about wiping out the problem but look at Portugal they have eliminated quite a bit of it and saved a ton of money on law enforcement. A good start.

It was a good start. But you're contradicting your own argument citing Portugal's decriminalisation.

They say that the cause of all addictions is a closed heart. You touch on this in some paragraphs as to what causes our hearts to close, childhood trauma, memories, abuse etc. All addictions are a result of a closed heart, and that until we learn to truly open our hearts our need for external stimuli will continue

May I request clarification on what you mean when you say "closed heart"?

Also, if one's heart was closed, how would one go about re-opening it?

"Closed Heart" meaning that we are not able to give and or receive love, due to something that has affected us strongly. Thru books and guidance I was taught to relive those moments, write letters of forgiveness to those involved and other things, although I don't think it helped a great deal addiction wise, smoking and drinking, I know that overall it was of benefit to me. It gave me some closure. I carry a lot of hatred in my heart somedays, I think that I know where it comes from but I am not sure. I try to put out vibes of love and good feelings to all, regardless.

[TheyCallmeScooter]

"Closed Heart" meaning that we are not able to give and or receive love, due to something that has affected us strongly. Thru books and guidance I was taught to relive those moments, write letters of forgiveness to those involved and other things, although I don't think it helped a great deal addiction wise, smoking and drinking, I know that overall it was of benefit to me. It gave me some closure. I carry a lot of hatred in my heart somedays, I think that I know where it comes from but I am not sure. I try to put out vibes of love and good feelings to all, regardless.

I'm very happy for you and I'm not being sarcastic.

But when you're an addict trying to numb away the pain of the memories of the horrors of a childhood punctuated by physical, sexual or emotional abuse...closure is never achievable.

Or if you are a victim of society-sponsored indirect abuse (no education, no options, a future of misery and back-breaking work for pennies to look forward to)...there is no closure because there is no remedy.

The problem can only be addressed when people are children. Once they're adults, trying to live with the trauma, you can't fix them. But there is no need to continue abusing them, which is what arresting users of pain-numbing drugs amounts to.

And it's not hatred that the victims of society's failures really feel all that much. Often, it's frustration, which expresses itself as hate. But mostly, and at the end of the day (regardless of the specific emotions), it's sheer pain that they feel. Ongoing, chronic, devastating pain. With no end in sight. Do you blame them for wanting that pain to go away, even if it's for a day or two?

Throwing them in prison for trying to numb their pain? Look, that really kind of pisses me off, for what I hope would be obvious reasons. What also pisses me off is the fact that others aren't.

[Colabamumbai]

"Closed Heart" meaning that we are not able to give and or receive love, due to something that has affected us strongly. Thru books and guidance I was taught to relive those moments, write letters of forgiveness to those involved and other things, although I don't think it helped a great deal addiction wise, smoking and drinking, I know that overall it was of benefit to me. It gave me some closure. I carry a lot of hatred in my heart somedays, I think that I know where it comes from but I am not sure. I try to put out vibes of love and good feelings to all, regardless.

I'm very happy for you and I'm not being sarcastic.

But when you're an addict trying to numb away the pain of the memories of the horrors of a childhood punctuated by physical, sexual or emotional abuse...closure is never achievable.

Or if you are a victim of society-sponsored indirect abuse (no education, no options, a future of misery and back-breaking work for pennies to look forward to)...there is no closure because there is no remedy.

The problem can only be addressed when people are children. Once they're adults, trying to live with the trauma, you can't fix them. But there is no need to continue abusing them, which is what arresting users of pain-numbing drugs amounts to.

And it's not hatred that the victims of society's failures really feel all that much. Often, it's frustration, which expresses itself as hate. But mostly, and at the end of the day (regardless of the specific emotions), it's sheer pain that they feel. Ongoing, chronic, devastating pain. With no end in sight. Do you blame them for wanting that pain to go away, even if it's for a day or two?

Throwing them in prison for trying to numb their pain? Look, that really kind of pisses me off, for what I hope would be obvious reasons. What also pisses me off is the fact that others aren't.

Addictions are a disease and need to be treated as such. I don't blame them at all for wanting numb out and no don't believe that the should be jailed, that is not the answer, In our own lives we can only look at what may cause our own addictions, find the real reasons and try to overcome them or at least live with them knowing what they are.There was only one drug that numbed my pain. The others I considered recreational.

[TheyCallmeScooter]

Addictions are a disease and need to be treated as such. I don't blame them at all for wanting numb out and no don't believe that the should be jailed, that is not the answer, In our own lives we can only look at what may cause our own addictions, find the real reasons and try to overcome them or at least live with them knowing what they are.There was only one drug that numbed my pain. The others I considered recreational.

Whether or not addictions are a disease or not, is really very debatable. Most people don't realise how many addictions they have. I was a workaholic for the better part of 7-8 years without once even stopping to consider why I was working like a mad man. Had I even stopped for one moment and thought about it, I would have realised I didn't have a reason and that I was working like a mad man because I was one. A very productive one, but only in society's eyes. I wasted 8 years, is how I view things.

People are addicted to being in 'love', people are addicted to drama, conflict, wanting to be liked (and the far more damaging) addiction to feeling desired, they're addicted to sex, to sweets, to sports, to watching sports, to biting their nails, to all sorts of things. Many are just as powerful, if not more powerful, as addiction to drugs (licit and illicit). If you're thinking "ah, but those aren't as dangerous"...stop right there and consider how a sex addiction plays out. Or an addiction to fast food, when you're 200 kg and struggling to inhale air at the conclusion of a 10m walk.

I once had to go to an isolated military base way out in a desert, no TV coverage. We were there for two weeks. I swear if one guy wasn't jonesing for his football coverage harder than any addict I've seen in withdrawals...that guy had a serious problem.

But my point is that regardless of all that, you can't approach the issue as something that can be 'fixed' if only they healed their disease or got 'better'. If the disease is merely the manifestation of the memories of a childhood of sexual abuse, what happens when you heal the disease of addiction, pray?

Do you erase the memories of their horrors? Or are you making their memories more vivid?

As a final point, it's impossible to call any drug use "recreational". The very fact that someone is unhappy enough when sober, to want to change their brain chemistry...this is something more than casual take it or leave it decision-making. Most (and it appears you as well) may be clueless about why you felt 'recreational' use was required, but I guarantee you that if you were honest about your 'recreational' use, it was for reasons that - at their core - weren't trivial at all.

[TheyCallmeScooter]

As a final point, it's impossible to call any drug use "recreational". The very fact that someone is unhappy enough when sober, to want to change their brain chemistry...this is something more than casual take it or leave it decision-making. Most (and it appears you as well) may be clueless about why you felt 'recreational' use was required, but I guarantee you that if you were honest about your 'recreational' use, it was for reasons that - at their core - weren't trivial at all.

I just realised how (unintentionally) insensitive I might have seemed right there. Apologies for that. I would perfectly understand your reading that and thinking "who is this joker to tell me whether or not my recreational use wasn't"...

I didn't mean it like that. Merely I think you were probably too hard on yourself. Every 'recreational' drug user I know legitimately believes they're taking drugs to enhance their already enjoyable / fulfilling / productive life. Um...that tends to be highly suspiciously illogical right there, but even if it's workable in theory, every time I push just a tiny bit, the real reasons are never (not yet that I have seen, in any case) to be anything but trivial.

They're almost always innocent, 100% so far. But it's almost always something like "drug's make me more sociable" or they "enhance the night" which suggests their mood (sans recreational drugs) was deemed unacceptably bland (or even worse).

I can see how most drug use would be believed recreational. I strongly believe if you melt away some of the activities and fun involved by recreational users, and got to the crux of why they're taking them, it's because they aren't happy with how they'd feel otherwise.

And that says "pain"....to me. It might only be mild pain, but it requires medication to nix it. And that's not recreational, imo. In no way am I saying it's a negative thing (in terms of them being somehow a bad person for wanting to negate pain)...just I can't see how it's ever as flippant as they believe. It's required, it performs a therapeutic benefit (or they believe it will), it's medication....not recreational.

[Thongkorn]

i must confess i had drugs too

alcohol and cigarettes

They cost just as much as the rest if not more , I bet as many people die though self inflicted smoking. The same goes for drink , not just the direct deaths but the lingering health problems caused by both.

[ginjag]

The kingpins, drug lords, whatever you want to call them, until a good number of these are arrested, thrown in jail &/or executed there will never be a decrease in the drug problem

somebody mentioned "executing" the "kingpins" - Never gonna happen - you do realise that could be some very high ranking people in the power elite?

I don't disagree with either of you as to the nature of the Untouchables, but in a hypothetical where they were not, do you really believe that removing a kingpin or a drug lord actually results in....? some kind of solution?

History (and sheer common sense) has shown ALWAYS that when you remove the drug lord, surprise surprise, another drug lord is promoted into his place. What else could you expect would be the result?

I'm stunned that people believe this is still a Supply issue? Remove the Supply, and you cannot remove the Demand. All you do is open up a spot for promotion in the Supply chain.

---------

@ ginjag: How could you really believe that I would 'shout-out' a discussion. I adore discussion. But if the opposing side is discussing poorly and using faux logic and failing to provide any supporting evidence...am I supposed to just accept their flawed opinions purely to assuage their ignorance?

I'm compelled to present reasoned arguments, with actual logic and with supporting evidence, to counter their beliefs. If their beliefs had any substance whatsoever, they would have no problem making me look a fool. I know this, I make myself appear the fool often without any assistance whatsoever.

Scooter when did I say you "shut out discussion" I noticed most of the logic was -yours. This not a courtroom, very much of your discussions are pointing to people being -ill informed-illogical-provide 'supporting evidence' please-I would suggest most posters are writing what they feel at the time, you are not here to correct or judge people, ease up and relax, enjoy the company you have good or bad. lighten up. Discussion is brill, educational, we all learn from it. My point before was you tend to hog topics too much, trying to be to educational.

Edited January 11, 2011 by ginjag

[TheyCallmeScooter]

Thanks cdnvic, scooters forum it was getting to be, full of their own importance.

many posters I noticed were not getting involved like before.

Perhaps I misunderstood you or misread your post above?

Scooter when did I say you "shut out discussion" I noticed most of the logic was -yours.

This not a courtroom, very much of your discussions are pointing to people being -ill informed-illogical-provide 'supporting evidence' please-I would suggest most posters are writing what they feel at the time, you are not here to correct or judge people, ease up and relax, enjoy the company you have good or bad. lighten up. Discussion is brill, educational, we all learn from it. My point before was you tend to hog topics too much, trying to be to educational.

Ah I think I see what you're saying. I think I understand where you're coming from but I would request you realise exactly what you're asking me to do...and that is skip over what amounts to (in my mind) ignorance at levels approaching sheer unacceptability, or worse.

We cannot escape the fact that most posters "writing what they feel at the time" are writing absolute drivel. This is why I try and correct false assertions and claims made without supporting evidence. We all learn from discussion but many people don't want to learn, heck most don't even want to discuss, they want to parrot out their ludicrous, opinions which aren't based in anything remotely logical or true, and are often simply disproved by existing evidence (of which they supply none in support of their claims, of course).

I correct and point out false assertions and illogical rhetoric because there's no point in anyone learning unless we're learning logically-sound academic lessons. I have no wish to learn some bigot's ludicrous opinion, and I don't see why you would...surely that's understandable?

I apologise for hogging topics, but this one especially is very personal for me. It's very hard to skip past a post where someone feels their opinion that stronger penalties for victims will solve the 'problem'. Not only do they have no interest in learning, those exact people are the ones who put pressure on governments to commit grave injustices in their handling of the issue. If those people actually wanted to discuss and learn, they wouldn't be spouting off nonsense at this (relatively late) stage of their lives (which is why they get angry when you gently correct them with some old-fashioned logic / supporting evidence).

I promise I will relax more in other topics and try and post less (please don't hesitate to PM me a reminder if you see me getting carried away). But in this topic, I cannot. I cannot abide ignorance and callous, mindless rhetoric. Not whilst millions of innocent victims are being treated as if they were doing something evil. The evil is only on one side, and I hope you forgive my inability to simply shrug at evil and /or listen to their unsupported, illogical, provably ridiculous points of view. I trust the moderators will pick me up when I've gone too far.

I'm only begging for leeway on this particular topic. I will try and remember your suggestions for others, which I don't feel strongly about...and please do ship me a quick message reminder telling me to shut my face if I forget in other discussions....

[ginjag]

Thanks cdnvic, scooters forum it was getting to be, full of their own importance.

many posters I noticed were not getting involved like before.

Perhaps I misunderstood you or misread your post above?

Scooter when did I say you "shut out discussion" I noticed most of the logic was -yours.

This not a courtroom, very much of your discussions are pointing to people being -ill informed-illogical-provide 'supporting evidence' please-I would suggest most posters are writing what they feel at the time, you are not here to correct or judge people, ease up and relax, enjoy the company you have good or bad. lighten up. Discussion is brill, educational, we all learn from it. My point before was you tend to hog topics too much, trying to be to educational.

Ah I think I see what you're saying. I think I understand where you're coming from but I would request you realise exactly what you're asking me to do...and that is skip over what amounts to (in my mind) ignorance at levels approaching sheer unacceptability, or worse.

We cannot escape the fact that most posters "writing what they feel at the time" are writing absolute drivel. This is why I try and correct false assertions and claims made without supporting evidence. We all learn from discussion but many people don't want to learn, heck most don't even want to discuss, they want to parrot out their ludicrous, opinions which aren't based in anything remotely logical or true, and are often simply disproved by existing evidence (of which they supply none in support of their claims, of course).

I correct and point out false assertions and illogical rhetoric because there's no point in anyone learning unless we're learning logically-sound academic lessons. I have no wish to learn some bigot's ludicrous opinion, and I don't see why you would...surely that's understandable?

I apologise for hogging topics, but this one especially is very personal for me. It's very hard to skip past a post where someone feels their opinion that stronger penalties for victims will solve the 'problem'. Not only do they have no interest in learning, those exact people are the ones who put pressure on governments to commit grave injustices in their handling of the issue. If those people actually wanted to discuss and learn, they wouldn't be spouting off nonsense at this (relatively late) stage of their lives (which is why they get angry when you gently correct them with some old-fashioned logic / supporting evidence).

I promise I will relax more in other topics and try and post less (please don't hesitate to PM me a reminder if you see me getting carried away). But in this topic, I cannot. I cannot abide ignorance and callous, mindless rhetoric. Not whilst millions of innocent victims are being treated as if they were doing something evil. The evil is only on one side, and I hope you forgive my inability to simply shrug at evil and /or listen to their unsupported, illogical, provably ridiculous points of view. I trust the moderators will pick me up when I've gone too far.

I'm only begging for leeway on this particular topic. I will try and remember your suggestions for others, which I don't feel strongly about...and please do ship me a quick message reminder telling me to shut my face if I forget in other discussions....

I know exactly where your ..coming from... and did understand your passion on certain subjects, all of us get carried away at some point, I do. ..The biggest problem, or your fear that people put pressure on govenments handling the issues. My and many people fear -The actual laws are not enforced in most cases. So many people speak over the top crying for justice, reaction and disbelief. I have learned much from you. I dont have to look things up in the library, Thanks for your warmer reply.

[MAJIC]

A common misconception.

Cannabis can cause Scizophrenia,Paranoia,Depression, Deprivation of drive and lack of interest in life,

among many other less serious side effects.

Look it up!

Reading posts like yours on ThaiVisa and other forums can cause Schizophrenia, Paranoia, Depression and can sap Motivation levels and might induce my requesting my username be changed to whybotherII. Among many other less serious side-effects.

I'd tell you to "look it up", but someone too lazy to post supporting 'evidence' will certainly be too lazy to actually look up anything.

You realise something like 70% of the US adult population has smoked pot, right? It's effectively decriminalised in most developed nations. Legal in Holland. California had a Proposition to regulate it recently, narrowly missed out - the next one will be passed. Nixon was a tool. The current US President has admitted to smoking pot and doing cocaine in his youth. Some Republicans would no doubt disagree, but he looks pretty sharp to me ('seared brain', notwithstanding). You'd have to be an idiot to smoke pot (in my opinion), but I would not kill or imprison people who disagreed with my opinions. Not even stoners. It's my opinion you'd have to be a moronic idiot to smoke cigarettes, and I smoke plenty of them. What I do is stupid, but being forced to accept the reality that people are being incarcerated for doing something less stupid than my pack-a-day habit? It's outrageous.

Ecstasy will be legalised in the UK within a few years:

Former Britain Home Office Minister & Defence Secretary Bob Ainsworth To Argue For Legalization Of All Drugs

British Drug Tzar Professor David Nutt: "The only drugs more harmful than alcohol are heroin, cocaine, barbiturates & methadone. LSD & ecstasy less harmful than tobacco."

Legalise all drugs: Britain Chief Constable demands end to 'immoral laws'

When The Guardian is demanding an end to the insanity with Editorials titled Prohibition's failed. Time for a new drugs policy and The war on drugs is immoral idiocy whilst the former President of Brazil is attempting to save South America from becoming failed states like Mexico (Fernando Henrique Cardoso: "It is time to admit the obvious. The 'war on drugs' has failed."), it's inevitable that it will be sooner rather than later that the madness will end. When it does, it will end with the anticlimactic puff seen in the Netherlands and Portugal and Argentina when they decriminalised.

Prohibition kills. The blood of every innocent is on the hands of the world's governments (who all manufacture illicit drugs). Only the very deluded (or the very corrupted) are ever confused about whether Supply creates Demand...or whether Demand Creates Supply.

The arguments I make are irrefutable unless you are able to re-code human DNA. Until you can, you cannot refute the sheer logic evident in the above arguments.

Indeed,Judging by the long winded barrage of your Posts, in which most people can't get a word in edgways,"whybother II" for a new username,would be very appropiate.

And usually, most people are capable of doing their own research!

Edited January 11, 2011 by MAJIC

[Deeral]

A common misconception.

Cannabis can cause Scizophrenia,Paranoia,Depression, Deprivation of drive and lack of interest in life,

among many other less serious side effects.

Look it up!

Reading posts like yours on ThaiVisa and other forums can cause Schizophrenia, Paranoia, Depression and can sap Motivation levels and might induce my requesting my username be changed to whybotherII. Among many other less serious side-effects.

I'd tell you to "look it up", but someone too lazy to post supporting 'evidence' will certainly be too lazy to actually look up anything.

You realise something like 70% of the US adult population has smoked pot, right? It's effectively decriminalised in most developed nations. Legal in Holland. California had a Proposition to regulate it recently, narrowly missed out - the next one will be passed. Nixon was a tool. The current US President has admitted to smoking pot and doing cocaine in his youth. Some Republicans would no doubt disagree, but he looks pretty sharp to me ('seared brain', notwithstanding). You'd have to be an idiot to smoke pot (in my opinion), but I would not kill or imprison people who disagreed with my opinions. Not even stoners. It's my opinion you'd have to be a moronic idiot to smoke cigarettes, and I smoke plenty of them. What I do is stupid, but being forced to accept the reality that people are being incarcerated for doing something less stupid than my pack-a-day habit? It's outrageous.

Ecstasy will be legalised in the UK within a few years:

Former Britain Home Office Minister & Defence Secretary Bob Ainsworth To Argue For Legalization Of All Drugs

British Drug Tzar Professor David Nutt: "The only drugs more harmful than alcohol are heroin, cocaine, barbiturates & methadone. LSD & ecstasy less harmful than tobacco."

Legalise all drugs: Britain Chief Constable demands end to 'immoral laws'

When The Guardian is demanding an end to the insanity with Editorials titled Prohibition's failed. Time for a new drugs policy and The war on drugs is immoral idiocy whilst the former President of Brazil is attempting to save South America from becoming failed states like Mexico (Fernando Henrique Cardoso: "It is time to admit the obvious. The 'war on drugs' has failed."), it's inevitable that it will be sooner rather than later that the madness will end. When it does, it will end with the anticlimactic puff seen in the Netherlands and Portugal and Argentina when they decriminalised.

Prohibition kills. The blood of every innocent is on the hands of the world's governments (who all manufacture illicit drugs). Only the very deluded (or the very corrupted) are ever confused about whether Supply creates Demand...or whether Demand Creates Supply.

The arguments I make are irrefutable unless you are able to re-code human DNA. Until you can, you cannot refute the sheer logic evident in the above arguments.

Indeed,Judging by the long winded barrage of your Posts, in which most people can't get a word in edgways,"whybother II" for a new username,would be very appropiate.

And usually, most people are capable of doing their own research!

"n which most people can't get a word in edgways" - a very simplistic comment

All you have to do is type and click "add reply" nothing has changed at all - except one or two posts by people who actually know what they are talking about - a vey rare occurrence on TV.

"And usually, most people are capable of doing their own research" - really???

Anyone who has actually engaged in real research - and by that I don't mean 30 minutes on Google - will tell you that it is seldom carried out without some mentor or guidance. I might also add that the products of people's "own research" on this site would idicate that they certainly aren't capable of doing even the most basic research and come up with a critically sound theory.

[TheyCallmeScooter]

And usually, most people are capable of doing their own research!

I could not agree with you more, Sir.

Whether or not they are willing to do so; or whether they're willing to accept the results of any research they reluctantly commence under their own steam; or whether they're even willing to digest mere summaries of research handed to them on a platter by other (well-researched) posters.....this kind of willingness is far more important than mere capability to do a thing. I just wish it was more evident at times, is all....not for me, but for the tragic victims of societies who are viewing issues incorrectly, en masse.

The injustices inflicted onto the drug addicts of the world (and Thailand's addicts are as victims as any other nation's, perhaps even more legitimately so)....the injustices are on a scale right up there with the injustices inflicted against the indigenous races of colour, genocide against ethnic groups, etc. One day the world's eyes will open and they will see what they have done, and they'll all be aghast surely. Surely too late for those who suffered waiting for just a modicum of empathy to show.

In Thailand, where so many are so worked up over double standards for rich v poor in the judicial system, that some are quite willing to burn and fight and even kill as a result...it's just sad. I'm not attempting to invalidate their outrage at double standards, merely attempt to get just a few to realise the overwhelming double standards are occurring all around them without any outrage expressed at all (often inflicted directly at their insistence or with their explicit support).

It's tragic, is all. Just tragic. But what can you do...