30,000 Thai Red Shirts Rally In Bangkok: Police

[MikeyIdea]

I went home yesterday and asked my wife to call Ui, those of you who have followed the posts about the occupasion of Ratchaprasong have read that we know each other since some time back now and that he used to go to the rallies because he got paid 1,500 bath per day for it and that is much more than what he normally earns.

Oh yes, Ui did go to this rally and I can confirm that he happily said that he got 1,500 bath for it too

[Emptyset]

CMF, given the conviction of Rak Chiang Mai 51 members in the murder of the father of the owner of a yellow shirt radio station, an old man who was pulled out of his truck and beaten to death, I suggest you rethink your position. It smacks of inflammatory trolling.

RCM51 are a bunch of ignorant thugs who'll probably all end up in jail or dead sooner or later. I know that there are other red groups in CM which tend to attract more peaceful, thoughtful types. But two members of RCM51 have also been killed recently. Political or not, I don't know, but it's not like red shirts are the only group capable of using violent force and intimidation. Also, Kwanchai Praipana has earned a deserved reputation as a thug capable of disgusting acts of violence, yet his radio station was burned to the ground and he himself was badly beaten. That was during the election campaign in 2007, before the colour war really got going. I'm not an apologist for violence, but it's clearly not all one way. More PPP canvassers were killed during the 2007 campaign than those from any other party. Most of the reported intimidation by PPP people in the last election was actually in Buri Ram, Newin's turf. He'll be on the other side this time, of course. Though I heard that Chavalit and Panlop will be responsible for "protecting" PT people when they compete against Newin in the coming election... I expect it will be even more violent than usual.

[Insight]

I went home yesterday and asked my wife to call Ui, those of you who have followed the posts about the occupasion of Ratchaprasong have read that we know each other since some time back now and that he used to go to the rallies because he got paid 1,500 bath per day for it and that is much more than what he normally earns.

Oh yes, Ui did go to this rally and I can confirm that he happily said that he got 1,500 bath for it too

I don't dispute any of this for a second. Doing the maths a figure of 45mil THB can be quickly be evaluated given the estimated turn out. Given how the (very Ammart-like) distribution mechanism works where the leaders take their cut before passing the rest on to the attendants, along with the overheads incurred through organising the stage and phone in, perhaps it's safe to assume this weekend cost somebody within the region of 100mil THB...?

[Ricardo]

haha this made me giggle... those pesky red shirts on every street corner just a-huntin out those yellows - haha - hey cum on out! - we know you're there! and all the time those yellows are a-cowering in their peaceful homes (sorry expensive peaceful homes) trying to work out which school to send their lovely little 'darlings' to and fearing those reds might surprise them at the local 7/11 - dam_n the life of a yellow sure is tough!

CMF, I take some slight exception to this, as in 2005 my wife was one of a small group of harmless people who liked to gather together & watch Sondhi's rallies on TV, and they were warned in-no-uncertain-terms that if this continued, they would be bombed. You may also recall what happens every time the Dems hold a rally up here, or a (current) government-minister visits ? So much for democracy or reconciliation.

I do appreciate that you're unaware of this sort of thing, and would very probably condemn it, in much the same way that I myself would welcome any improvement in the lives of the poor, from whatever the source. I think we're agreed on many things. :jap:

The red-vote, even in Chiang Mai, reached about 75% (I think ?) at the peak, but there were always 'non-believers', well before recent events. If you don't meet many up here, who aren't UDD/PTP-supporters, perhaps they're keeping quiet about their views, for good reason ? Much as red-supporters in the South might.

Which is not to claim that there aren't very many in Chiang Mai, who still remember Thaksin fondly, and will vote PTP at the election later this year, just that it is not and never was unanimous, as you seem to believe !

[sbk]

CMF, given the conviction of Rak Chiang Mai 51 members in the murder of the father of the owner of a yellow shirt radio station, an old man who was pulled out of his truck and beaten to death, I suggest you rethink your position. It smacks of inflammatory trolling.

RCM51 are a bunch of ignorant thugs who'll probably all end up in jail or dead sooner or later. I know that there are other red groups in CM which tend to attract more peaceful, thoughtful types. But two members of RCM51 have also been killed recently. Political or not, I don't know, but it's not like red shirts are the only group capable of using violent force and intimidation. Also, Kwanchai Praipana has earned a deserved reputation as a thug capable of disgusting acts of violence, yet his radio station was burned to the ground and he himself was badly beaten. That was during the election campaign in 2007, before the colour war really got going. I'm not an apologist for violence, but it's clearly not all one way. More PPP canvassers were killed during the 2007 campaign than those from any other party. Most of the reported intimidation by PPP people in the last election was actually in Buri Ram, Newin's turf. He'll be on the other side this time, of course. Though I heard that Chavalit and Panlop will be responsible for "protecting" PT people when they compete against Newin in the coming election... I expect it will be even more violent than usual.

Since CMF was disputing the violent acts of red shirts the point I was making was that it was not true. Certainly there has been violence on both sides but it is disingenuous at best, and inflammatory trolling at worst, to say that the red shirt movement is not violent.

Making blanket statements that are inflammatory and based on obvious untruths are, IMO, inflammatory trolling designed to bait people into responding in an inflammatory way.

Not a good thing and not allowed. OK? Does that make my statement clearer?

[SICHONSTEVE]

Undeniable fact is that the reds are a major political force in Thailand and they are here to stay - whatever insulting comments some people here are making against them it will not change the facts better get used to it .

I challenge you on that

Members of the red skirt movement even intimidated me and my 5 year old daughter, including calling me and my daughter Kwai - buffaly on the 6th or April 2010, and intimidated me at several other times when I went to work at Ratchaprasong...

The red skirts is not a political force at all, it's a violent movement, nothing to do with democracy

I also challenge his words. The UDD is clearly in disarray at the moment as they are in a tiz about choosing their next leader and at the moment appear not only leaderless but rudderless as wel. Their dismal showing in those 5 recent bye-elections supports this appraisal of the dire situation they now find themselves in. What, with most of their leaders in jail awaiting their day in court on terrorism charges it doesn't auger well for them.

I sympathise with those hard core protestors wasting their time (and the little money they have - after deducting Thaksin's illegal sweetener money of course) in Bangkok as they are, broadly speaking, poor and uneducated people suckered into supporting this corrupt businessman and immoral politician. Why doesn't he just stay out of politics (and Thailand) for eternity and live his life on the billions of baht he still has. I concede, SOME, or even a sizeable preportion of it was probably earned legitimately as there is no doubting that he is a shrewd businessman that can make a bob or two. It is sadly, also a well known fact that when people become obscenely rich they endeavour to make more and more money to top up their fortunes by what ever means at their disposal (both legal and illegal). I can honestly say that if someone provided me with a million pounds I would tuck most of it away in sound(ish) investments and live the life on the interest. It puzzles me that greed breeds greed as it can only be perceived as being something akin to an out-of-control ego trip designed only to add a few more noughts onto their already over inflated bank accounts.

[random]

Mikeyidea, you call them red skirts, clearly you have no time for them and their ideals, I wonder whether you treated them this way as you passed them every day, maybe that will give you an answer as to why they showed you no respect.

[yoshiwara]

Undeniable fact is that the reds are a major political force in Thailand and they are here to stay - whatever insulting comments some people here are making against them it will not change the facts better get used to it .

I challenge you on that

Members of the red skirt movement even intimidated me and my 5 year old daughter, including calling me and my daughter Kwai - buffaly on the 6th or April 2010, and intimidated me at several other times when I went to work at Ratchaprasong...

The red skirts is not a political force at all, it's a violent movement, nothing to do with democracy

I also challenge his words. The UDD is clearly in disarray at the moment as they are in a tiz about choosing their next leader and at the moment appear not only leaderless but rudderless as wel. Their dismal showing in those 5 recent bye-elections supports this appraisal of the dire situation they now find themselves in. What, with most of their leaders in jail awaiting their day in court on terrorism charges it doesn't auger well for them.

I sympathise with those hard core protestors wasting their time (and the little money they have - after deducting Thaksin's illegal sweetener money of course) in Bangkok as they are, broadly speaking, poor and uneducated people suckered into supporting this corrupt businessman and immoral politician. Why doesn't he just stay out of politics (and Thailand) for eternity and live his life on the billions of baht he still has. I concede, SOME, or even a sizeable preportion of it was probably earned legitimately as there is no doubting that he is a shrewd businessman that can make a bob or two. It is sadly, also a well known fact that when people become obscenely rich they endeavour to make more and more money to top up their fortunes by what ever means at their disposal (both legal and illegal). I can honestly say that if someone provided me with a million pounds I would tuck most of it away in sound(ish) investments and live the life on the interest. It puzzles me that greed breeds greed as it can only be perceived as being something akin to an out-of-control ego trip designed only to add a few more noughts onto their already over inflated bank accounts.

There is no doubt that the red lines of communication have been disrupted, but they are not in a tizz. There is some attempt to step into the breach and be presentable to Thaksin in time for this year's election, but he has made it clear for the moment that he would prefer his daughter to do the honours and keep his PM seat warm. The problem for Thaksin is to have a leader on the ground who is prepared to support civil unrest if the reds lose the next election.

Thaksin lost big with the removal of Seh Daeng and the army is not going to put up with a disloyal wing next time round. You ask why Thaksin does not just take the money and run. Well he did. Only for tinpot aspirants such as himself the lost of power was a grievous wound which itches like mad. If he hadn't set out to loot the state he would probably still be in power. If he can't have Thailand back, he will destroy. The track record is clear.

[MikeyIdea]

Mikeyidea, you call them red skirts, clearly you have no time for them and their ideals, I wonder whether you treated them this way as you passed them every day, maybe that will give you an answer as to why they showed you no respect.

Perhaps you can provide a better word to describe what a bunch of men dressed in red screaming and calling me and my daughter kwai - buffalo and making my 5 year old little girl cry heavily. She still today over 6 months later move close to me and ask me to lift her up, to protect her when a bunch of Thai men come close, she never did that before 6-April

I am being kind, now show my daughter and me the respect of telling me what you would call the red gentlemen who did that. What's the word you would use random? Thugs? Criminals?

Edited January 11, 2011 by MikeyIdea

[Buchholz]

haha this made me giggle... those pesky red shirts on every street corner just a-huntin out those yellows - haha - hey cum on out! - we know you're there! and all the time those yellows are a-cowering in their peaceful homes (sorry expensive peaceful homes) trying to work out which school to send their lovely little 'darlings' to and fearing those reds might surprise them at the local 7/11 - dam_n the life of a yellow sure is tough!

CMF, given the conviction of Rak Chiang Mai 51 members in the murder of the father of the owner of a yellow shirt radio station, an old man who was pulled out of his truck and beaten to death, I suggest you rethink your position. It smacks of inflammatory trolling.

Since CMF was disputing the violent acts of red shirts the point I was making was that it was not true. Certainly there has been violence on both sides but it is disingenuous at best, and inflammatory trolling at worst, to say that the red shirt movement is not violent.

Making blanket statements that are inflammatory and based on obvious untruths are, IMO, inflammatory trolling designed to bait people into responding in an inflammatory way.

Not a good thing and not allowed. OK? Does that make my statement clearer?

+ 1 !

.

[Buchholz]

Mikeyidea, you call them red skirts, clearly you have no time for them and their ideals, I wonder whether you treated them this way as you passed them every day, maybe that will give you an answer as to why they showed you no respect.

Perhaps you can provide a better word to describe what a bunch of men dressed in red screaming and calling me and my daughter kwai - buffalo and making my 5 year old little girl cry heavily. She still today over 6 months later move close to me and ask me to lift her up, to protect her when a bunch of Thai men come close, she never did that before 6-April

I am being kind, now show my daughter and me the respect of telling me what you would call the red gentlemen who did that. What's the word you would use random? Thugs? Criminals?

To address that special finite level that would do that to a small child:

Miscreant

mis·cre·ant

   /ˈmɪskriənt/

–adjective

depraved, villainous, or base

–noun

a vicious or depraved person; villain

[kropotkin]

1. if the authorities (in whatever country) say: 30.000 protesters against us, that means at least 60.000 - like it or not.

2. this is a stuggle between 2 different sets of corrupted money grabbers, both sides are using ignorant poor people.

3. i understand uneducated thai people take sides, but TV posters???

[rubl]

3. i understand uneducated thai people take sides, but TV posters???

This is just a sarcastic remark, right?

[kropotkin]

3. i understand uneducated thai people take sides, but TV posters???

This is just a sarcastic remark, right?

Probably

[rubl]

Since CMF was disputing the violent acts of red shirts the point I was making was that it was not true. Certainly there has been violence on both sides but it is disingenuous at best, and inflammatory trolling at worst, to say that the red shirt movement is not violent.

Making blanket statements that are inflammatory and based on obvious untruths are, IMO, inflammatory trolling designed to bait people into responding in an inflammatory way.

Not a good thing and not allowed. OK? Does that make my statement clearer?

I'm not sure if you are posting in your capacity as a mod or a normal poster, but I wonder if, for the sake of clarity, you could confirm that if saying the redshirt movement is not violent is an inflammatory blanket statement, saying that they are violent is also a blanket statement which is equally inflammatory.

Cheers.

Not related questions, I think. It was the 'disputing the violent acts of red shirts' part which caused the response. That's not the same as saying 'the reds are violent', or 'the reds are non-violent'. IMHO

[Buchholz]

1. if the authorities (in whatever country) say: 30.000 protesters against us, that means at least 60.000 - like it or not.

And if media sources (foreign and domestic in whatever country) present say: 30,000... does that mean "the media is against us, cause we really had at least 80,000 by our own count"?

.

Edited January 11, 2011 by Buchholz

[jdinasia]

Give it a break - personal attacks are not allowed on TV and everyone is entitled to their view and to debate - this is the problem you attack anyone who disagrees typical elitist tactics 'we know best'

I agree letitbe's post is OTT (over the top) but face it CMF, when you belittle the deaths and threats made by reds in Chiang Mai, and seem to ascribe to the ~violence is inevitable in a class struggle~ (whilst decrying violence --- which does seem hypocritical) and comparing the events in Thailand to trade unionist movements in Europe from many years ago ..... you are going to get reactions like that.

Your "I know best" attitude is reflected in accusing anyone who disagrees with you as both elitist and having an "I know best attitude."

Very simply, you need to actually get to know people ... all types of people .... here in Chiang Mai and all over the country and, most importantly, gain their trust before you will get anything but the surface level of their thoughts/beliefs. Grengjai will prevent most Thai people from disputing anything with a random foreigner, much less the risk of being seen in a different light than some of the more violent people around them. A couple of years in one city in Thailand just isn't enough to base much on, particularly if you don't sling the lingo.

[rubl]

I think you mean no RED shirt is popular in Surat Thani - a slip of the keyboard perhaps!!!!!!!

Actually neither red nor yellow shirts are really popular in Surat Thani. Most favour the Democrats.

[jdinasia]

Hanuman -----

How about "The reds have a proven track record of violence and threats of violence" --- it doesn't say all reds are violent, nor does it lie.

[hanuman1]

Hanuman -----

How about "The reds have a proven track record of violence and threats of violence" --- it doesn't say all reds are violent, nor does it lie.

Personally, the problem for me is that the word 'reds' is often taken as meaning 'all reds'.

So if your statement were "Some reds have a proven track record of violence and threats of violence" then we would certainly be in agreement.

This is like hammering out the wording of a UN resolution but necessary and helpful to the debate, I think.

Cheers.

[jdinasia]

Hanuman -----

How about "The reds have a proven track record of violence and threats of violence" --- it doesn't say all reds are violent, nor does it lie.

Personally, the problem for me is that the word 'reds' is often taken as meaning 'all reds'.

So if your statement were "Some reds have a proven track record of violence and threats of violence" then we would certainly be in agreement.

This is like hammering out the wording of a UN resolution but necessary and helpful to the debate, I think.

Cheers.

Hate to say it .... (oh get real ... I don't hate saying it!) ----

The REDS have a proven record of violence and threats of violence. As a movement. It really isn't debatable. Which red leader said "bring a million bottles...." which red leader on the other hand .. from stage ... in Thai --- said

"Do not use weapons, do not resist the police, do not resist arrest" etc ---- oh wait .. even Veera called for the destruction of public property from the stage. The movement itself allows violent hate speech from their stages. The movement itself gets the label. Not every red is violent. The movement has shown that it is.

[rubl]

Personally, the problem for me is that the word 'reds' is often taken as meaning 'all reds'.

This is like hammering out the wording of a UN resolution but necessary and helpful to the debate, I think.

(some removed, check original post)

Same for 'all yellow-shirts' being PAD, or their party NPP. Actually same like the popular phrase 'Thaksin = PTP = UDD = red-shirts' v.v., although the start 'Thaksin = PTP' seems correct

[kropotkin]

Personally, the problem for me is that the word 'reds' is often taken as meaning 'all reds'.

So if your statement were "Some reds have a proven track record of violence and threats of violence" then we would certainly be in agreement.

This is like hammering out the wording of a UN resolution but necessary and helpful to the debate, I think.

Cheers.

With the yellows, no such problem, no need to differentiate.

[jdinasia]

With the yellows, no such problem, no need to differentiate.

True --- by comparison the yellows just weren't that violent. No masses of black-shirted, Sae Daeng sponsored armed men carrying full military ordnance. No grenade launchers etc. It is also worth note that when the yellows did something their leaders were there in the front. That being said. The PAD is a spent force without Thaksin to fight against and this thread is about the reds (and their rally that violated several of the conditions they agreed to before hand)

[kropotkin]

With the yellows, no such problem, no need to differentiate.

True --- by comparison the yellows just weren't that violent. No masses of black-shirted, Sae Daeng sponsored armed men carrying full military ordnance. No grenade launchers etc. It is also worth note that when the yellows did something their leaders were there in the front. That being said. The PAD is a spent force without Thaksin to fight against and this thread is about the reds (and their rally that violated several of the conditions they agreed to before hand)

.....THEY agreed to......

Who is THEY?

Is that mister T? or his party? Or Jatuporn? Or - let's be optimistic - the slowly emerging new political movement of the poor? - remember the european 19th century.

Do you think misterT can speak for f ex Red Siam? - or the poor / fed up with the status quo?

And I guess you did not have to make a visa run when BKK was closed?

[rubl]

.....THEY agreed to......

Who is THEY?

Is that mister T? or his party? Or Jatuporn? Or - let's be optimistic - the slowly emerging new political movement of the poor? - remember the european 19th century.

Do you think misterT can speak for f ex Red Siam? - or the poor / fed up with the status quo?

And I guess you did not have to make a visa run when BKK was closed?

I would assume 'THEY' are the organizers in the three factions which held the protest last Sunday. In discussion with the police a route was set-up, rules of behaveour, ending time, .etc., etc.

[bkkjames]

I vote we bin this topic until the 9th of next month or pin it as it seems it's perpetual.

[kropotkin]

.....THEY agreed to......

Who is THEY?

Is that mister T? or his party? Or Jatuporn? Or - let's be optimistic - the slowly emerging new political movement of the poor? - remember the european 19th century.

Do you think misterT can speak for f ex Red Siam? - or the poor / fed up with the status quo?

And I guess you did not have to make a visa run when BKK was closed?

I would assume 'THEY' are the organizers in the three factions which held the protest last Sunday. In discussion with the police a route was set-up, rules of behaveour, ending time, .etc., etc.

So you mean, THEY are the leaders......

The red shirt movement is hopefully - but i am an optimist - a movement that does not follow leaders (or at least the beginning of such a movement).

That is how freedom once started in Europe...

You know the John Lennon song Imagine?

[rubl]

So you mean, THEY are the leaders......

The red shirt movement is hopefully - but i am an optimist - a movement that does not follow leaders (or at least the beginning of such a movement).

That is how freedom once started in Europe...

You know the John Lennon song Imagine?

I mean 'they' the organizers. They may be one or more of the leaders of their faction. Any faction needs a few 'leaders' for the faction to function and promote it's ideas.

PS depending on how you want to define 'freedom', freedom started long before John L. came with his song.

http://www.nanamouskouri.de/imagine.htm

Edited January 11, 2011 by rubl

[kropotkin]

So you mean, THEY are the leaders......

The red shirt movement is hopefully - but i am an optimist - a movement that does not follow leaders (or at least the beginning of such a movement).

That is how freedom once started in Europe...

You know the John Lennon song Imagine?

I mean 'they' the organizers. They may be one or more of the leaders of their faction. Any faction needs a few 'leaders' for the faction to function and promote it's ideas.

PS depending on how you want to define 'freedom', freedom started long before John L. came with his song.

http://www.nanamousk....de/imagine.htm

Freedom starts with not being poor....., freedom starts with having the chance to materially progress in life.

(Eat that, buddhists!)

The rest hopefully follows - no religion, no leaders, no countries, no greed,......

Hopefully, but i am not as sure now, as i was in 1968.