Bringing Up Mixed Race Kids In Thailand

[Boo]

Amen ^^

[Thailaw]

The funny thing is that ThaiLaw doesn''t even realise how disliked he is

Jerk, aka ThaiLaw is sarcastic, mean, unforgiving and never misses an opportunity to make a cutting remark. Jerk's repulsive personality quickly alienates other posters, and after some initial skirmishing he is usually ostracized. Still, Jerk is very happy to participate in electronic forums because in cyberspace he is free to be himself...without the risk of getting a real-time punch in the mouth

Now who is the "agitated westerner having problems to adapt in Asia taking it out on people who happen to cross your way"? If the shoe fits, ............... You certainly don't take criticism very well. My "participation" in internet forums is rather limited -- about 370 posts in about 4 years on this one and no others (unlike someone who makes a "life" (not really a life) at internet forum posting (1,500 posts in a bit over a year -- that may be a record)). I try to keep my posts objective and civil, and when I include sarcasm or harsh criticism, the post (or poster) I am responding to usually (at least in my view) deserves it. Not sure how I or anyone is "ostracized" on an open forum, but its an interesting idea. Perhaps you can expand a bit further. "Sticks and stones will break my bones, but...............". You know the rest....

Edited January 17, 2011 by Thailaw

[Patsycat]

Could you make your paragraphs a bit shorter please?

[Blackandwhite]

Well, I have been away from my computer for a few days and on my return I see as usual the topic I post in search of the simple thoughts of those of you out there that have experienced the type of situation we are considering has gone 100% of topic. Well done Thaivisa, another blood bath of arguments and bitching, is it not time that Thaivisa generate a rule that stops blatant poor manners towards others, this might also then help keep topics from becoming one big argument.

[MikeyIdea]

Well, I have been away from my computer for a few days and on my return I see as usual the topic I post in search of the simple thoughts of those of you out there that have experienced the type of situation we are considering has gone 100% of topic. Well done Thaivisa, another blood bath of arguments and bitching, is it not time that Thaivisa generate a rule that stops blatant poor manners towards others, this might also then help keep topics from becoming one big argument.

Yes, we all hope that could happen but it won't, mainly because many westerners posting here are like fish out of water in a strange culture where things are not as home and they get quarrelsome and right out nasty because of it, inventing and imagening content in posts to make their point

Your opening post is - Bringing up mixed race kids in Thailand

I have no regrets whatsoever, I am glad I took the decision. I must work harder as a father here, think more what is right and wrong before I advice (not automatically assume that the culture I was brought up in is the right way but look at both cultures and then decide), offer more guidance more often, I sleep less and I laugh more as I try hard to make my child do more of both. Parenting takes longer time here so my best advice is to choose a school close to home, move if you have to,

I am glad I moved.

If you do decide to let your kids go to school in THailand, then I recommend this thread http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/313221-how-to-best-combine-schools-teaching-techniques-culture-and-tradition/, good and fun reading

Good Luck

Michael

[Thailaw]

If you go back through the posts and separate the wheat from the chaff (and ignore the ones off point (sorry I added to those), there are some good posts that do address some of the relevant concerns. The best I think is the one by geekfreaklover below:

I have two mixed race (Thai/English) kids at a pratum level small Thai private school in Bangkok. They are six and seven and doing very well. Happy, bright, intelligent. My plan is to stay in Thailand, so it is important that they are fluent in written and spoken Thai. My fear with going the international school route is that once they graduate and are through unviersity overseas (university must be overseas) that they are unable to blend back in with Bangkok society, if this is where they wish to work. For secondary / mattayum / high school there are many government and private options in Bangkok. Schools in Bangkok can be good or bad and it doesn't always depend on the fees you pay. It mostly depends on the students ability to rise to the higher level classes. I've worked in perhaps 15 Thai government high schools, and the majority are better than the London government equvilent I attended. Also, I think Thai schools teach things like respect and discipline. Concepts my home country has long since abandoned.

The concerns he raises are important. I would revise the emphasis -- fundamentally, it is critical that children get an excellent education and are fluent in written and spoken English. English has become the international language. Thailand is becoming a two tier society -- those that can speak English have opportunities, those that cannot remain at the bottom. But as important is which society you want your children to be absorbed into -- Thai or western. I do not think that question is answered by where the parents plan to live. If the children are raised and educated in Thailand, most of their frends will be Thai, they will speak Thai (and maybe English), and they will be absorbed into Thai culture and become Thai (the leuk kreung thing is really one generation). If they are raised and educated in the west, they will likely be absorbed into western society, most of their friends will be western (regardless of their ethnic background), and they will likely marry westerners, etc. Of course, there are exceptions, but the probabilities strongly suggest these results. This choice should, of course, be made by the children themselves, but the reality is that the parents choice of schooling will largely determine the outcome. I agree that university must be in the US or the UK for the quality of the education. But more than that, I want my daughters to be absorbed into western society, not Thai society (and so does their Thai mom, probably more strongly than me), regardless of where I live -- they can always visit. If they want to settle in Thailand that will be great, but they will come as westerners (that hopefully speak Thai well and know the country well from the time they have spent here -- the one foot in each culture thing). I might feel differently if I had a leuk kreung son (probably not, but possible), but for daughters there is no question where they will have the best opportunities (and protections) for growth and development, and that is not in Thailand, at least not in the foreseeable future. Perhaps education at an elite international school in Bangkok and then university in the US or UK will lead to the same result, and have some of the benefits that geekfreaklover mentions -- worth considering. There is more than academic learning in the choice of schools and schooling, a lot more......

[maccaroni man]

If you go back through the posts and separate the wheat from the chaff (and ignore the ones off point (sorry I added to those), there are some good posts that do address some of the relevant concerns. The best I think is the one by geekfreaklover below:

I have two mixed race (Thai/English) kids at a pratum level small Thai private school in Bangkok. They are six and seven and doing very well. Happy, bright, intelligent. My plan is to stay in Thailand, so it is important that they are fluent in written and spoken Thai. My fear with going the international school route is that once they graduate and are through unviersity overseas (university must be overseas) that they are unable to blend back in with Bangkok society, if this is where they wish to work. For secondary / mattayum / high school there are many government and private options in Bangkok. Schools in Bangkok can be good or bad and it doesn't always depend on the fees you pay. It mostly depends on the students ability to rise to the higher level classes. I've worked in perhaps 15 Thai government high schools, and the majority are better than the London government equvilent I attended. Also, I think Thai schools teach things like respect and discipline. Concepts my home country has long since abandoned.

The concerns he raises are important. I would revise the emphasis -- fundamentally, it is critical that children get an excellent education and are fluent in written and spoken English. English has become the international language. Thailand is becoming a two tier society -- those that can speak English have opportunities, those that cannot remain at the bottom. But as important is which society you want your children to be absorbed into -- Thai or western. I do not think that question is answered by where the parents plan to live. If the children are raised and educated in Thailand, most of their frends will be Thai, they will speak Thai (and maybe English), and they will be absorbed into Thai culture and become Thai (the leuk kreung thing is really one generation). If they are raised and educated in the west, they will likely be absorbed into western society, most of their friends will be western (regardless of their ethnic background), and they will likely marry westerners, etc. Of course, there are exceptions, but the probabilities strongly suggest these results. This choice should, of course, be made by the children themselves, but the reality is that the parents choice of schooling will largely determine the outcome. I agree that university must be in the US or the UK for the quality of the education. But more than that, I want my daughters to be absorbed into western society, not Thai society (and so does their Thai mom, probably more strongly than me), regardless of where I live -- they can always visit. If they want to settle in Thailand that will be great, but they will come as westerners (that hopefully speak Thai well and know the country well from the time they have spent here -- the one foot in each culture thing). I might feel differently if I had a leuk kreung son (probably not, but possible), but for daughters there is no question where they will have the best opportunities (and protections) for growth and development, and that is not in Thailand, at least not in the foreseeable future. Perhaps education at an elite international school in Bangkok and then university in the US or UK will lead to the same result, and have some of the benefits that geekfreaklover mentions -- worth considering. There is more than academic learning in the choice of schools and schooling, a lot more......

my children have been raised and educated in thailand, never in thai schools; out side of the 1 yr that we call the yr from hell and where it is true that they have some thai friends Thais are not in great numbers in their school. Teaching the children to speak English and Thai well is a challange. My kids prefer to speak english and watch programs in english but both are very good in their thai studies (thanks to their mother) we have always had the policy that i speak english with the kids as it is my native language and she speaks her native thai. I waited until my oldest was nearly 9 before i took him on a long stay visit (4mo) to my country because i wanted him to understand and remember what he was seeing. He is now going on 13 and will be making his 3rd return trip for a long summer holiday, traveling alone to stay with his cousins. It is my hope that he will gain a better understanding of the choices available to him. The fact of the matter is, my children have opportunities that their mother nor I ever had and they see the world differently.

[mkawish]

Congrats....

You presented a very balance and sane outlook and parental experiences....

Cheers, Dad.... :jap:

If you go back through the posts and separate the wheat from the chaff (and ignore the ones off point (sorry I added to those), there are some good posts that do address some of the relevant concerns. The best I think is the one by geekfreaklover below:

I have two mixed race (Thai/English) kids at a pratum level small Thai private school in Bangkok. They are six and seven and doing very well. Happy, bright, intelligent. My plan is to stay in Thailand, so it is important that they are fluent in written and spoken Thai. My fear with going the international school route is that once they graduate and are through unviersity overseas (university must be overseas) that they are unable to blend back in with Bangkok society, if this is where they wish to work. For secondary / mattayum / high school there are many government and private options in Bangkok. Schools in Bangkok can be good or bad and it doesn't always depend on the fees you pay. It mostly depends on the students ability to rise to the higher level classes. I've worked in perhaps 15 Thai government high schools, and the majority are better than the London government equvilent I attended. Also, I think Thai schools teach things like respect and discipline. Concepts my home country has long since abandoned.

The concerns he raises are important. I would revise the emphasis -- fundamentally, it is critical that children get an excellent education and are fluent in written and spoken English. English has become the international language. Thailand is becoming a two tier society -- those that can speak English have opportunities, those that cannot remain at the bottom. But as important is which society you want your children to be absorbed into -- Thai or western. I do not think that question is answered by where the parents plan to live. If the children are raised and educated in Thailand, most of their frends will be Thai, they will speak Thai (and maybe English), and they will be absorbed into Thai culture and become Thai (the leuk kreung thing is really one generation). If they are raised and educated in the west, they will likely be absorbed into western society, most of their friends will be western (regardless of their ethnic background), and they will likely marry westerners, etc. Of course, there are exceptions, but the probabilities strongly suggest these results. This choice should, of course, be made by the children themselves, but the reality is that the parents choice of schooling will largely determine the outcome. I agree that university must be in the US or the UK for the quality of the education. But more than that, I want my daughters to be absorbed into western society, not Thai society (and so does their Thai mom, probably more strongly than me), regardless of where I live -- they can always visit. If they want to settle in Thailand that will be great, but they will come as westerners (that hopefully speak Thai well and know the country well from the time they have spent here -- the one foot in each culture thing). I might feel differently if I had a leuk kreung son (probably not, but possible), but for daughters there is no question where they will have the best opportunities (and protections) for growth and development, and that is not in Thailand, at least not in the foreseeable future. Perhaps education at an elite international school in Bangkok and then university in the US or UK will lead to the same result, and have some of the benefits that geekfreaklover mentions -- worth considering. There is more than academic learning in the choice of schools and schooling, a lot more......

my children have been raised and educated in thailand, never in thai schools; out side of the 1 yr that we call the yr from hell and where it is true that they have some thai friends Thais are not in great numbers in their school. Teaching the children to speak English and Thai well is a challange. My kids prefer to speak english and watch programs in english but both are very good in their thai studies (thanks to their mother) we have always had the policy that i speak english with the kids as it is my native language and she speaks her native thai. I waited until my oldest was nearly 9 before i took him on a long stay visit (4mo) to my country because i wanted him to understand and remember what he was seeing. He is now going on 13 and will be making his 3rd return trip for a long summer holiday, traveling alone to stay with his cousins. It is my hope that he will gain a better understanding of the choices available to him. The fact of the matter is, my children have opportunities that their mother nor I ever had and they see the world differently.

[xerostar]

Excellent post Thailaw.

You've given me a lot of food for thought about my daughter's future.

I assume you were just using examples of two countries with good universities.

There are many excellent universities outside of USA and the UK of course.

Obviously a university degree from Thailand is not universally recognised in western countries.

Therefore a western university is the only choice if you have a studious son/daughter.

I dread the time when my daughter reaches the rebellious teenage years.

There are so many distractions and chances for them to go off the rails.

[Thailaw]

Excellent post Thailaw.

You've given me a lot of food for thought about my daughter's future.

I assume you were just using examples of two countries with good universities.

There are many excellent universities outside of USA and the UK of course.

Obviously a university degree from Thailand is not universally recognised in western countries.

Therefore a western university is the only choice if you have a studious son/daughter.

I dread the time when my daughter reaches the rebellious teenage years.

There are so many distractions and chances for them to go off the rails.

I have learned from your posts also, Xerostar -- thanks for that.

I mention US and UK universities only because English is spoken there, and the schools (at least some) are very good. I have no problem with others if the language barrier can be overcome. By that time/age, my daughters will make the selection of university and its location (with perhaps some guidance from me, as I will be paying the bills).

You are so very right about the "rebellious" years. Thailand is a very open, free society. That is great for well grounded adults, but for young adventureous teenagers it may create some real dangers from which parents will not always be able to protect them. Hopefully, we will have taught our children to be thoughtful and cautious before they head out on their own. My oldest is 2 1/2, so there is still time..... Best of luck........

[samran]

I have defended my point against banal, sophomoric and emotional (my post had 4 typos, duh!) attack only because the attackers' points have been so rediculous and poorly thought out.

Yes, it really is pathetic

Thailaw, on 2011-01-17 10:39, said:

Boy, you do seem to struggle with the English language. Perhaps you are a product of the same UK state schools system of which you seem to be so fond and supportive.

I'll happily keep my child away from the kind of education you received if you think being condesending & nasty is the way to get on in life. Good grace isn't something they seem to have taught in your great US schooling system either.

The above reminds me of a well reported conversation circa the mid 1970's between Gough Whitlam (Australian Labor PM from 1972 to 1975) and a young backbencher named Paul Keating, who would go on to be treasurer from 1983 to 1990 and then PM from 1992 to 1996.

Whitlam: "That was a good speech. You should go back comrade, and get yourself an honours degree."

Keating: "What for ? Then I'd be like you."

Paul Keating never finished his high school (catholic working suburbs) but is credited with reforming the Australian economy in the during the 1980's, creating the economic fundamentals which have led to 20 years economic growth and has seen Australia basically avoid the Asian Fin crisis in the late 90's and the GFC which is ongoing at the moment.

Whitlam was a QC who benefited from the best private education money could buy. He has been dubbed, rightly in my view, as the most economically incompetent PM in Australia's history.

For the record: - I'd be happy with top tier international schools in Thailand (ISB, Pattana) where there is a good mix - a proper mix - of Thai and international students.

Having said that, I know many people who have sent their kids to more Thai orientated 'international schools' who have bought up very well adjusted luuk krung kids, well able to handle themeselves both inside and out of Thailand.

[Thailaw]

But more than that, I want my daughters to be absorbed into western society, not Thai society (and so does their Thai mom, probably more strongly than me), regardless of where I live -- they can always visit. If they want to settle in Thailand that will be great, but they will come as westerners (that hopefully speak Thai well and know the country well from the time they have spent here -- the one foot in each culture thing). I might feel differently if I had a leuk kreung son (probably not, but possible), but for daughters there is no question where they will have the best opportunities (and protections) for growth and development, and that is not in Thailand, at least not in the foreseeable future. Perhaps education at an elite international school in Bangkok and then university in the US or UK will lead to the same result, and have some of the benefits that geekfreaklover mentions -- worth considering. There is more than academic learning in the choice of schools and schooling, a lot more......

And one more point -- make no mistake, the door does not swing equally and as smoothly in both directions. It will be (and will continue to be) far more easy for a young "western" adult (leuk kreung raised in the west) that has received a quality western education and speaks native English and modest Thai to come to Thailand (or go to China) and start a successful career and "succeed" in Thailand (or elsewhere in Asia) than it will be for a young Thai adult (same leuk kreung raised in Thailand (perhaps not in elite international schools -- still thinking about that)) that has received a "quality education" (by Thai standards) and speaks native Thai and modest English to go to the US (or the UK (or China)) and start a successful career and "succeed". To me, that is the true test of having been given "opportunites" (tangible door opening, world expanding choices) in the formative years.

[gregb]

If the children are raised and educated in Thailand, most of their frends will be Thai, they will speak Thai (and maybe English), and they will be absorbed into Thai culture and become Thai (the leuk kreung thing is really one generation). If they are raised and educated in the west, they will likely be absorbed into western society, most of their friends will be western (regardless of their ethnic background), and they will likely marry westerners, etc. Of course, there are exceptions, but the probabilities strongly suggest these results. This choice should, of course, be made by the children themselves, but the reality is that the parents choice of schooling will largely determine the outcome. I agree that university must be in the US or the UK for the quality of the education. But more than that, I want my daughters to be absorbed into western society, not Thai society (and so does their Thai mom, probably more strongly than me), regardless of where I live -- they can always visit.

This really does cut to the heart of the question, and what I find so fascinating is that while I agree completely with everything Thailaw says, it leads me to exactly the opposite conclusions. In my opinion, the West is entering a period of decline, and nexus of prosperity is going to be in Asia in 30 years time. Study after study shows people feel the happiest not when they are wealthy on an absolute scale, but when they feel their future looks brighter tomorrow than it does today. I don't believe this paradigm will be at all prevalent in the West when my children enter adulthood, as it will require decades to centuries of decline and retrenchment before the West has found a new equilibrium that will allow growth. The future of the West for the natural life of my children looks dim and ugly.

Conversely, Asia is just coming into its own, and has room for progress within society. But to fit in within Asian society, it is imperative that you have a very native understanding of the concept of face. I find it fascinating that Thai people can listen to or speak a lie, know it is a lie, know the other party knows it is a lie, and yet not be offended by this. There is a shared cultural meme that exists between them and allows them to flourish in the presence of this very strange cultural characteristic. Someone whose friends are all Western will have a very hard time ever adapting to such a strange custom.

While I require the academic education to be based around rational thought and personal responsibility, and I definitely will require my children to go to university in the West, I absolutely want their social network to be movers and shakers in Asia. I want them to have the outlook on family that Asians have, and I while I want them to feel at home in either culture, if forced to make a choice I would have to choose Asia which is where I believe the most opportunity lies.

As Thai law says, they can always visit the West, and I hope that I can impart my own cultural sensitivities to them to make sure they know how to get by in that environment. But I don't want to handicap my children by making them grow up there when the world is moving East.

Academic education should be Western for sure. But social education? That has to be Thai. As the over reliance on mysticism and luck gives way in Asia towards more rational mannerisms, lack of a native understanding of Asian culture is going to be a serious deficiency.

I hope we can all agree to respect each other's opinions in this very important issue.

[MikeyIdea]

If the children are raised and educated in Thailand, most of their frends will be Thai, they will speak Thai (and maybe English), and they will be absorbed into Thai culture and become Thai (the leuk kreung thing is really one generation). If they are raised and educated in the west, they will likely be absorbed into western society, most of their friends will be western (regardless of their ethnic background), and they will likely marry westerners, etc. Of course, there are exceptions, but the probabilities strongly suggest these results. This choice should, of course, be made by the children themselves, but the reality is that the parents choice of schooling will largely determine the outcome. I agree that university must be in the US or the UK for the quality of the education. But more than that, I want my daughters to be absorbed into western society, not Thai society (and so does their Thai mom, probably more strongly than me), regardless of where I live -- they can always visit.

This really does cut to the heart of the question, and what I find so fascinating is that while I agree completely with everything Thailaw says, it leads me to exactly the opposite conclusions. In my opinion, the West is entering a period of decline, and nexus of prosperity is going to be in Asia in 30 years time. Study after study shows people feel the happiest not when they are wealthy on an absolute scale, but when they feel their future looks brighter tomorrow than it does today. I don't believe this paradigm will be at all prevalent in the West when my children enter adulthood, as it will require decades to centuries of decline and retrenchment before the West has found a new equilibrium that will allow growth. The future of the West for the natural life of my children looks dim and ugly.

Conversely, Asia is just coming into its own, and has room for progress within society. But to fit in within Asian society, it is imperative that you have a very native understanding of the concept of face. I find it fascinating that Thai people can listen to or speak a lie, know it is a lie, know the other party knows it is a lie, and yet not be offended by this. There is a shared cultural meme that exists between them and allows them to flourish in the presence of this very strange cultural characteristic. Someone whose friends are all Western will have a very hard time ever adapting to such a strange custom.

While I require the academic education to be based around rational thought and personal responsibility, and I definitely will require my children to go to university in the West, I absolutely want their social network to be movers and shakers in Asia. I want them to have the outlook on family that Asians have, and I while I want them to feel at home in either culture, if forced to make a choice I would have to choose Asia which is where I believe the most opportunity lies.

As Thai law says, they can always visit the West, and I hope that I can impart my own cultural sensitivities to them to make sure they know how to get by in that environment. But I don't want to handicap my children by making them grow up there when the world is moving East.

Academic education should be Western for sure. But social education? That has to be Thai. As the over reliance on mysticism and luck gives way in Asia towards more rational mannerisms, lack of a native understanding of Asian culture is going to be a serious deficiency.

I hope we can all agree to respect each other's opinions in this very important issue.

Excellent post greg

[Thailaw]

This really does cut to the heart of the question, and what I find so fascinating is that while I agree completely with everything Thailaw says, it leads me to exactly the opposite conclusions. In my opinion, the West is entering a period of decline, and nexus of prosperity is going to be in Asia in 30 years time. Study after study shows people feel the happiest not when they are wealthy on an absolute scale, but when they feel their future looks brighter tomorrow than it does today. I don't believe this paradigm will be at all prevalent in the West when my children enter adulthood, as it will require decades to centuries of decline and retrenchment before the West has found a new equilibrium that will allow growth. The future of the West for the natural life of my children looks dim and ugly.

Conversely, Asia is just coming into its own, and has room for progress within society. But to fit in within Asian society, it is imperative that you have a very native understanding of the concept of face. I find it fascinating that Thai people can listen to or speak a lie, know it is a lie, know the other party knows it is a lie, and yet not be offended by this. There is a shared cultural meme that exists between them and allows them to flourish in the presence of this very strange cultural characteristic. Someone whose friends are all Western will have a very hard time ever adapting to such a strange custom.

While I require the academic education to be based around rational thought and personal responsibility, and I definitely will require my children to go to university in the West, I absolutely want their social network to be movers and shakers in Asia. I want them to have the outlook on family that Asians have, and I while I want them to feel at home in either culture, if forced to make a choice I would have to choose Asia which is where I believe the most opportunity lies.

As Thai law says, they can always visit the West, and I hope that I can impart my own cultural sensitivities to them to make sure they know how to get by in that environment. But I don't want to handicap my children by making them grow up there when the world is moving East.

Academic education should be Western for sure. But social education? That has to be Thai. As the over reliance on mysticism and luck gives way in Asia towards more rational mannerisms, lack of a native understanding of Asian culture is going to be a serious deficiency.

I hope we can all agree to respect each other's opinions in this very important issue.

Your logic is good, your economics is not. Jim Rogers (the financial advisor and fund manager), but the way, says much the same thing as you (that China will be the "star" of the 21st century), and he has moved his family from the US to Singapore as a result. But he is an investor, and is investing in the success of Asian companies, not in job prospects over the next 20+ years. China and Thailand (and other countries in Asia) are export driven, which works because wages in China and Thailand are incredibly low in relation to the west, and as a result goods can be produced in Asia and sold in the west at low prices, much lower than if they were produced in the west. For this economic growth to continue, wages must stay low. In fact, this a big part of the Red Shirt political battle going on in Thailand now. The Thai elite (business owners) have the incentive to keep wages low now and in the future (the success of their businesses depends on it), and they want tax revenues to be spent on roads, ports, airports (infrastructure) so that their goods can be transported to western markets more easily and quickly -- this is Thailand today, nice airport, good roads. The Red Shirts want tax revenues spent on education, schools and health care so as to improve the well being and incomes of the working class -- we'll see how the politics plays out. But, in any event, for economic growth to continue, wages must stay low (or domestic incomes and consumption must increase significantly, which is decades away). If wages rise the comparative advantage of Asia products disappears. So, while the growth of economic activity in Thailand has been significant, growth in wages has not. That should concern you if future prospects for your children are a primary goal -- there is a strong political incentive to keep wages depressed. Singapore, on the other hand, produces nothing, and is primarily a service and financial center where real incomes have and I expect will continue to rise significantly. Note that while Rogers believes that China will be a rising star in the 21st century, he did not choose to raise or educate his children there, for what should be obvious reasons (he has stated that in his view Singapore has one of the best educational and heatlh care systems in the world, and he may well be right). I doubt that he would have chosen Thailand either, again for obvious reasons. I am sure that he wants his kids to be raised in a primarily English speaking environment, which Singapore is. Most natives also speak Mandarin Chinese, but all offices work in English,and English is understood and spoken by everyone everywhere -- a great place to raise "Asian" (truly "Asian") kids. It is very hard for me to understand why people (presumably intelligent ones) think that, just because you believe that there will be growth and development (forget for a moment the GNP versus PCI distinction) in a particular country that it is therefore a good idea to educate your children there. I expect amazingly large economic growth and development (not in per capita income) in Nigeria over the next 20 years or more (primarily oil driven), but that does not mean for an instant that I would consider raising my children there -- i would not.

And while economic opportunities (viewed broadly) are very important for my children, my real concern is that Thai law and cutture does not protect women and their children adequately. I like many aspects of Thai culture, but the commitment (or lack thereof) of Thai men to to their wives and children is not a part I like or want for my daughters. And the law in Thailand doesn't do much/anything to create or enforce an obligation of the father to his children's maintenance or support. I do not want my daughter to struggle raising her child or sending the child to her mom because her Thai husband/boyfriend has run away with a "gik", especially when there are other alternatives, which in my case there are.

The starting salery for a good MBA in the US is about $100k a year. The starting salary for a good MBA in India is $5,000. A condo outside Mumbai is around $200,000 and rising rapidly, clearly unaffordable for the MBA. The Indian MBA may get comfort and satisfaction knowing that if he works hard and "succeeds" that his salary will go from $5,000 this year to $7,500 (a 50% increase) next year. But the condo will still be unaffordable. I am not sure about the studies that absolute income is not important, but I am sure that if you offered to MBAs the choice of $100k a year fixed for the next 10 years or $5,000 a year with a chance of 50% salary increases over the same 10 years, 99 out of 100 people will go for the $100k salary (as they should).

Going your way, I think you are taking a very big gamble with your kid's future. My way, the gamble is small to zero, and I won't gamble with my kids' futures. Best of luck with your's.....

[samran]

The starting salery for a good MBA in the US is about $100k a year. The starting salary for a good MBA in India is $5,000. A condo outside Mumbai is around $200,000 and rising rapidly, clearly unaffordable for the MBA. The Indian MBA may get comfort and satisfaction knowing that if he works hard and "succeeds" that his salary will go from $5,000 this year to $7,500 (a 50% increase) next year. But the condo will still be unaffordable. I am not sure about the studies that absolute income is not important, but I am sure that if you offered to MBAs the choice of $100k a year fixed for the next 10 years or $5,000 a year with a chance of 50% salary increases over the same 10 years, 99 out of 100 people will go for the $100k salary (as they should).

Going your way, I think you are taking a very big gamble with your kid's future. My way, the gamble is small to zero, and I won't gamble with my kids' futures. Best of luck with your's.....

meh....

So by your logic then, most all of my Thai MBA friends, very often oxbridge or Ivy League educated, or if not, from some of the top uni's in the UK or US are being illogical.

They aren't dumb, understand NPV and can do a discounted cash flow valuation. Speak flawless English and can more than cope with 'the west'.

Tell me, where are they going wrong? It couldn't be that they coming back to invest in their networks at an early age and building foundations...so they pay off later in life?

Also, I'd like you to explain to me the phenomenon of Overseas born Indian's and Chinese returning back to the land of their parents.

Even me, from my perspective, a pioneering Leuk Krung. My earning potential in Thailand is higher than in Australia. Go figure.

Are we all just stupidly delusional?

Edited January 18, 2011 by samran

[gregb]

My way, the gamble is small to zero, and I won't gamble with my kids' futures. Best of luck with your's.....

Many things you say I agree with Thailaw. This one, I don't. They are both gambles. You are just reading your crystal ball differently from me is all. Assuming that the West is going to stay the same or improve from here on out is a gamble I won't take with my children's future. From my perspective, there are too many indicators that it will decline dramatically, and that many of those of the West will soon be living in abject poverty. The export economies of today will be a historical footnote.

Luckily, we don't have to agree. That is why different people live in different places. Best of luck with your children as well.

[Thailaw]

My way, the gamble is small to zero, and I won't gamble with my kids' futures. Best of luck with your's.....

Many things you say I agree with Thailaw. This one, I don't. They are both gambles. You are just reading your crystal ball differently from me is all. Assuming that the West is going to stay the same or improve from here on out is a gamble I won't take with my children's future. From my perspective, there are too many indicators that it will decline dramatically, and that many of those of the West will soon be living in abject poverty. The export economies of today will be a historical footnote.

Luckily, we don't have to agree. That is why different people live in different places. Best of luck with your children as well.

Your's is a very good outlook on life, and with it as the guide I am sure that your children are destined for success. But let's take the story in a bit of a different direction for argument sake. Assume that you and your wife (I assume that she is Thai) move to the west to live, say the UK or the US, and bring your child (leuk kreung) with you or have one in the west. Would you send your child to Thailand to be educated rather than having him/her educated in the west, just so he/she can be emersed in the expected to be economically exploding economy? You would if you really believe what you say, but I seriously doubt that you would. And in my case, if the west goes to hell as you expect, my western educated leuk kreung can come back to Asia (Thailand or Singapore or China) very easily -- she will know the way having traveled that route many times, and she will have the skills to succeed anywhere -- that to me is the key. By "export economies" I assume you mean the west -- if they become bleak black holes with no prosperity, so will be Asia, which depends on the west to buy all of the stuff that they make and give their people jobs. I see my way as clearly the one with far less risk for my kids, but reasonable minds can differ on that -- let's agree to disagree. Cheers,

[Thailaw]

meh....

So by your logic then, most all of my Thai MBA friends, very often oxbridge or Ivy League educated, or if not, from some of the top uni's in the UK or US are being illogical.

They aren't dumb, understand NPV and can do a discounted cash flow valuation. Speak flawless English and can more than cope with 'the west'.

Tell me, where are they going wrong? It couldn't be that they coming back to invest in their networks at an early age and building foundations...so they pay off later in life?

Also, I'd like you to explain to me the phenomenon of Overseas born Indian's and Chinese returning back to the land of their parents.

Even me, from my perspective, a pioneering Leuk Krung. My earning potential in Thailand is higher than in Australia. Go figure.

Are we all just stupidly delusional?

There are so many "gaps" in your examples, I can't possibly comment usefully. And an MBA, given the financial crisis and it affect on US/UK financial institutions, is not a good example to explain employment or job seeking behavior. Let me make a few observations -- your MBA friends do not fit, I think, into my example. Some may expect that they will be able to "grow" their income far in excess of an average 50% per year, maybe through family or political connections, maybe through hard work, maybe through just luck. A few may succeed, but most will not, such is life. The truly exceptional ones may see a "glass ceiling" in US and UK professional service firms, and they are probably right. For them, the opportunities "back at home" will be seen as unlimited, except by their skills and ability -- a very good feeling indeed. And some, regardless of how well educated, were just not making it in jobs in the west, and decided they had a better chance "back home" -- the financial crisis encouraged many MBAs to look for jobs elsewhere, and for Thais that would certainly include Thailand. Every case will be different and must be examined individually. But remember, the majority of Indians, Chinese and Thais that get degrees from prestigeous US and UK schools come from very wealthy families, many with business interests back in the home country. Coming home, after a stint with a US or UK company to gain some experience and a few lines on your resume, to work in the family enterprise or capitalize on the family's influence is very common. So, I don't think that your friends prove or disprove anything -- they are certainly not stupid (but an Ivy League degree may not make them very smart either -- another story), and I never suggested that they (or people like them) were. They are taking risks, some will succeed and some will fail (and I'll bet that each has a family that can/will backstop them if they do fail, which makes taking risks a whole lot easier)

As far as you, as a "pioneering" leuk kreung, I am not sure what your skill set is or why you can earn more here than in Australia. There are many examples of a job paying more in one place than in another. This is usually due to constraints on labor mobility or it is a temporary phenomenon until labor markets and wages adjust. Your skills may be pretty garden variety in Australia and less available here, hence you get paid more here than in Australia. Be happy while it lasts.

One of my main points has been that if things don't work out for well educated leuk kreung in the west, they can always come back to Thailand and explore opportunities here. And, that this is much easier than in the reverse. Your friends' examples seem to confirm that to be correct.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Thailaw

[maccaroni man]

thailaw after reading some of you long post, i am not sure i undersatand what you are saying. the op is clear but i really dont know for certain where you are coming from or how old your children are. lets assume your child is well educated and gets a law degree, does that automaticlly make her a success? I believe the avg income of a US attorney is under 50k per yr. What if your girls decide to stay in thailand and get medical degrees? they can work in private hospitals and earn more than a 100k dollars per yr. If what you are saying is, education is important in the childs ability to have greater choices, i would agree but if you are saying that the only way your child can reach full potintial is to be educated abroad, i have to question this line of thinking. There are too many examples of wealthy thais living great standards of livings without ever being educated outisde of thailand for me to agree with your premis that education abroad pays the greatest dividens.

[Thailaw]

thailaw after reading some of you long post, i am not sure i undersatand what you are saying. the op is clear but i really dont know for certain where you are coming from or how old your children are. lets assume your child is well educated and gets a law degree, does that automaticlly make her a success? I believe the avg income of a US attorney is under 50k per yr. What if your girls decide to stay in thailand and get medical degrees? they can work in private hospitals and earn more than a 100k dollars per yr. If what you are saying is, education is important in the childs ability to have greater choices, i would agree but if you are saying that the only way your child can reach full potintial is to be educated abroad, i have to question this line of thinking. There are too many examples of wealthy thais living great standards of livings without ever being educated outisde of thailand for me to agree with your premis that education abroad pays the greatest dividens.

From wiki.answers.com:

"From the U.S. Department of Labor:<BR itxtvisited="1">

In May 2008, the median annual wages of all wage-and-salaried lawyers were $110,590. The middle half of the occupation earned between $74,980 and $163,320.<BR itxtvisited="1"><BR itxtvisited="1">Read more: http://wiki.answers....n#ixzz1BRZoRutQ".

If she chooses to earn a degree in law (or in medicine) that would prepare her for a successful life and career, it would not in and of itself make her "successful". And salary is not the only (and perhaps not the most important) measure of "success". Lawyers (me included) do tend to measue/count success with only a "$", which is probably a mistake, but I think we do that with our professional peers and not with our families. And I am comforted by the fact that I can handle financially any storm in the sea (unlike many of the people I see around me). I do want that comfort and security for my children (along with joy, happiness and satisfaction), which is what I think this original post was all about. A good education is, I think, necessary for a happy, successful and rewarding life, but of course there are exceptions to the contrary. Most posters agree that a "western" education (at least at the university level) is very important, and I certainly go along with that. Once they reach 18, the choices for my children's lives, education and careers will be their's, with perhaps some advice from me. There are many example of almost everything -- one guy fell from the 18th story of a building (I think in NY) and survived, but I wouldn't suggest that you try it . In reality, the number of wealthy Thais living "great standards of living" is an extermely small percentage of the population. It can, of course, happen (especially if you family is wealthy and politically influential already), but the prospects are extermely low. If you want to hang your child's future on the hope that he/she can follow the path of the wealthy Thai-educated Thais, that is entirely your choice, but the probability is that you are perparing your child for a very low living standard by western standards and a not very "successful" life. I want to perpare my childern (give them the "opportunity") for success. What they do with their lives after graduating from university is up to them. After having written my posts and having read many others, I am more seriously considering a private international school in Bangkok or Singapore for my children, not because they are better but certainly closer. That is, I think, a positive result of this exercise. We all neeed to question our ideas and reevaluate our views on a regular basis, especially the important ones and the ones that will have a significant effect on our family.

I hope that I have been clearer this time (and that my post is not too long).

Edited January 19, 2011 by Thailaw

[Patsycat]

Thailaw,

As i asked before, could you please cut your posts up into readable paragraphs?

Thanks,

Patsycat

[catwho]

I have defended my point against banal, sophomoric and emotional (my post had 4 typos, duh!) attack only because the attackers' points have been so rediculous and poorly thought out.

Yes, it really is pathetic

Thailaw, on 2011-01-17 10:39, said:

Boy, you do seem to struggle with the English language. Perhaps you are a product of the same UK state schools system of which you seem to be so fond and supportive.

I'll happily keep my child away from the kind of education you received if you think being condesending & nasty is the way to get on in life. Good grace isn't something they seem to have taught in your great US schooling system either.

The above reminds me of a well reported conversation circa the mid 1970's between Gough Whitlam (Australian Labor PM from 1972 to 1975) and a young backbencher named Paul Keating, who would go on to be treasurer from 1983 to 1990 and then PM from 1992 to 1996.

Whitlam: "That was a good speech. You should go back comrade, and get yourself an honours degree."

Keating: "What for ? Then I'd be like you."

Paul Keating never finished his high school (catholic working suburbs) but is credited with reforming the Australian economy in the during the 1980's, creating the economic fundamentals which have led to 20 years economic growth and has seen Australia basically avoid the Asian Fin crisis in the late 90's and the GFC which is ongoing at the moment.

Whitlam was a QC who benefited from the best private education money could buy. He has been dubbed, rightly in my view, as the most economically incompetent PM in Australia's history.

For the record: - I'd be happy with top tier international schools in Thailand (ISB, Pattana) where there is a good mix - a proper mix - of Thai and international students.

Having said that, I know many people who have sent their kids to more Thai orientated 'international schools' who have bought up very well adjusted luuk krung kids, well able to handle themeselves both inside and out of Thailand.

I have to agree with your post,Samran.

i left school at 14, worked hard was hopeless at theory at school but once i left school things made sense.today i am a multi living in thailand.

My brother went to uni got his degree in economics and after 2 yrs of work went on the dole and has been there every since.he could'nt hack it too much pressure.

we can help our kids in everyway but at the end of it ca sera sera what ever will be will be...as i am 62 my kids are 3 and 9yrs,i hope i am around for them when time to leave school i have money put aside for their education weather i am here or not.In the end it will be the kids who have to have the want in their mind and body to do well.with the help of thier mother of course and me if i am here.

Me i'd like my daughter 9yrs to go to uni and my son 3yrs to be a seaman 4 weeks on and 4 weeks off and live the life off riley like me.But that will be up to him and her.

We are moving back to pattaya from our country estate to our mansion in pattaya,were i have booked them into goverment school ENGLISH PROGRAM at 15,000baht a term starting may.where they teach them respect, hard work,and the disiplne[cane]...Thats my say,, you blokes can do what you think is best for you kids.

cat

[Verndaddy]

Paul Keating never finished his high school (catholic working suburbs) but is credited with reforming the Australian economy in the during the 1980's, creating the economic fundamentals which have led to 20 years economic growth and has seen Australia basically avoid the Asian Fin crisis in the late 90's and the GFC which is ongoing at the moment.

Whitlam was a QC who benefited from the best private education money could buy. He has been dubbed, rightly in my view, as the most economically incompetent PM in Australia's history.

For the record: - I'd be happy with top tier international schools in Thailand (ISB, Pattana) where there is a good mix - a proper mix - of Thai and international students.

Having said that, I know many people who have sent their kids to more Thai orientated 'international schools' who have bought up very well adjusted luuk krung kids, well able to handle themeselves both inside and out of Thailand.

I have to agree with your post,Samran.

i left school at 14, worked hard was hopeless at theory at school but once i left school things made sense.today i am a multi living in thailand.

My brother went to uni got his degree in economics and after 2 yrs of work went on the dole and has been there every since.he could'nt hack it too much pressure.

we can help our kids in everyway but at the end of it ca sera sera what ever will be will be...as i am 62 my kids are 3 and 9yrs,i hope i am around for them when time to leave school i have money put aside for their education weather i am here or not.In the end it will be the kids who have to have the want in their mind and body to do well.with the help of thier mother of course and me if i am here.

Me i'd like my daughter 9yrs to go to uni and my son 3yrs to be a seaman 4 weeks on and 4 weeks off and live the life off riley like me.But that will be up to him and her.

We are moving back to pattaya from our country estate to our mansion in pattaya,were i have booked them into goverment school ENGLISH PROGRAM at 15,000baht a term starting may.where they teach them respect, hard work,and the disiplne[cane]...Thats my say,, you blokes can do what you think is best for you kids.

cat

can I ask you what particular school you are enrolling your children in?