Thai Firms Say Red Shirt Protests Threaten Jobs

[Emptyset]

Thai employers "concerned" about their "poor" employees are rarer than Oxbridge Ph.D's on a visa run bus to the Cambodian border.They pay what they think they can get away with.

Uhm, that is how it is supposed to be and it is in all parts of the world.

Do you run your own business, are you employed or lifting social service benefits?

What do you mean by that is "how it is supposed to be"? What does that mean? That it's natural? Yes, maybe it is natural, and that's why people must stand up against their employers. Not just trust them to hand out the goodies of their free accord.

[jayboy]

No you misunderstand me.It's perfectly acceptable even commendable, and represents Thailand's accession to modern politics.That's why on balance I support the Abhisit/Korn approach.

What is the Abhisit/Korn "approach"? This pairing might be more competent/qualified than what PT has to offer at the moment (but let's remember this much lauded pairing has taken on board much of PT/PPP's platform), but I don't see any evidence AT ALL of them having a different "approach"? As far as I can tell both sides have roughly the same economic & social policies, the only difference is one side is closer to the traditional elite than the other. Correct me if I'm wrong. The only crucial difference is rhetorical and stylistic, a matter of perception, I suppose. Abhisit is unlikely to be able to communicate to the rural poor in the way Thaksin was able to (don't know why because it's not like Thaksin had anything to do w/the rural poor before he became a politician).

You are right to query the pairing.In my case it's really a shorthand way to describe a policy that addresses social needs fairly, but is based on hard headed economic principles.It's the "competence" of the Abhisit/Korn pairing that appeals.I just don't see it with the PTP or to be frank with most of the coalition partners.

[jayboy]

The clown show continues...

Irritated by the sensible compromise negotiated by police, traders and redshirts?

Our PAD representative from Sri Racha resorts to baby talk.

.... and yet again Jayboy attacks the poster (with innuendo and not facts apparently) instead of dealing with the post.

Bucholz's post clearly showed where Thida lied about not blocking/shutting down traffic around Central World ... so instead of dealing with that ......

If the police and traders are satisfied, that's good enough for most people.The hardline purveyors of hatred will never be satisfied.

[TAWP]

Thai employers "concerned" about their "poor" employees are rarer than Oxbridge Ph.D's on a visa run bus to the Cambodian border.They pay what they think they can get away with.

Uhm, that is how it is supposed to be and it is in all parts of the world.

Do you run your own business, are you employed or lifting social service benefits?

What do you mean by that is "how it is supposed to be"? What does that mean? That it's natural? Yes, maybe it is natural, and that's why people must stand up against their employers. Not just trust them to hand out the goodies of their free accord.

The employee want as high salary as possible, the employer want to pay as low as possible - and they try to see where their numbers match.

[TAWP]

I don't see where you're going with this or why.But anyway you seem a reasonable polite sort of person so here goes..

Actually while obviously you are broadly correct, there are significant differences in the examples you mention related to culture, meaningful minimum wages etc etc.Remember that the average Sino-Thai businessman is only a few generations away from being a wretched illiterate peasant.These people dragged themselves up amazingly but there's not likely to be much sympathy for the concept of generous salaries.In other words the dog eat dog mentality is more prevalent.I don't particularly have any issue with this.

My point was that while your post saying:

Thai employers "concerned" about their "poor" employees are rarer than Oxbridge Ph.D's on a visa run bus to the Cambodian border.They pay what they think they can get away with.

...made it look like Thai employers are a 'special breed of evil'. This is merely the way things are done - and should be done in any situation where two parties negotiate an employer-employee contract.

[Emptyset]

You are right to query the pairing.In my case it's really a shorthand way to describe a policy that addresses social needs fairly, but is based on hard headed economic principles.It's the "competence" of the Abhisit/Korn pairing that appeals.I just don't see it with the PTP or to be frank with most of the coalition partners.

Abhisit/Korn went to Oxford, which makes them more qualified in most people's eyes But let's let the electorate decide. I think Dr.Suchart is a lightweight (PT's probable finance minister), especially compared to Korn, but it's not like his qualifications are too bad on paper either. Though PT's manifesto does seem to be offering slightly more to the poor, especially graduates and those on minimum wages. I really don't think the outlook for the country as a whole will be too different whichever crew is elected. It's more a matter of principle at this point. PT will be awful if you hate Thaksin and you couldn't vote for Dems after they way they've behaved over the last couple of years if you're "red" leaning, could you?

[Emptyset]

The employee want as high salary as possible, the employer want to pay as low as possible - and they try to see where their numbers match.

Yeah, of course. See what you meant now. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be contested though (obviously).

[jayboy]

...made it look like Thai employers are a 'special breed of evil'. This is merely the way things are done - and should be done in any situation where two parties negotiate an employer-employee contract.

No that wasn't my intent, and it's not what I think about Thai employers.

I suppose my comment was less than flattering about the social and intellectual calibre of visa runners (and those "businessmen" who are in reality visa runners) .. but that's a different story.

[jayboy]

I wasn't making a moral judgement, simply querying whether the benevolent Quaker employment philosophy has many followers among the Sino-Thai business class.

lol ... Sino-Thai business class? Jayboy are you assuming that there is any difference in how the Thai/Chinese ethnic group pays and treats employees in Thailand compared to other groups? If so, can you show any empirical evidence of this? Yet again the attack on the Thai Chinese ethnic group? Why? Your basic premise seems to be that businesses all tend to use the same typical policies to maximize profits, so singling out this group you attack over and over smacks of bigotry to me.

You have elsewhere proclaimed you are "well educated and, less convincingly, "upper middle class."

Yet you have difficulty in understanding a simple proposition which has been made several times, namely that to point out that business in THailand is dominated overwhelmingly by Sino-Thais is not the same as making an attack on that community.Got it now?

Your other points I have dealt with elsewhere.

[Mackie]

Nonsense. Those guys brought Thailand on the brink of the civil war. They haven't got a clue what the democracy is. Democracy Khmer Rouge style. It is well documented that they use force against their political opponents in North and North East of Thailand. They intimidate other political parties and their family members by using firearms and bombs. Red mob movement has nothing to do with the democracy. Most of their leadership are power hungry thugs. Thailand has no future with them. Jobless, uneducated and violent mob will certainly not solve any of Thailand's problems. They had their chance last year. Abhisit offered them an early election within three months. They turned it down and chose the path of destruction and violence.

In democracies groups have a right to demonstrate. Mostly the organizers and the police will setup a meeting to discuss subject, route, attendance, limitations, security issues, first-aid preparations/stations, start/stop time, etc., etc. This to ensure a peaceful rally with minimal disturbance.

If the Ratchaprasong business people don't like being singled out for protests they should start talks with police and rally organizers to reach a compromise.

Democracy is action, you've got to love it

[TAWP]

...made it look like Thai employers are a 'special breed of evil'. This is merely the way things are done - and should be done in any situation where two parties negotiate an employer-employee contract.

No that wasn't my intent, and it's not what I think about Thai employers.

I suppose my comment was less than flattering about the social and intellectual calibre of visa runners (and those "businessmen" who are in reality visa runners) .. but that's a different story.

Your second part of the statement that pointed to the [low] ratio of PhD-holders amongst visa runners is something I agree with hence what lead me to object to the first part of the statement, since the ratio is so low...

[rubl]

Nonsense. Those guys brought Thailand on the brink of the civil war. They haven't got a clue what the democracy is. Democracy Khmer Rouge style. It is well documented that they use force against their political opponents in North and North East of Thailand. They intimidate other political parties and their family members by using firearms and bombs. Red mob movement has nothing to do with the democracy. Most of their leadership are power hungry thugs. Thailand has no future with them. Jobless, uneducated and violent mob will certainly not solve any of Thailand's problems. They had their chance last year. Abhisit offered them an early election within three months. They turned it down and chose the path of destruction and violence.

We should not forget the terrible things which happened March - May 2010, we should also not forget that having taken care of that we should move forward. It may be difficult to forget the violence of those months, but we do have to go on. You may eye some parties as untrustful, but for the sake of reconciliation we have to work together. Trust is something which is based on a long term relation, takes time. Give it time, work on it. give it a try.

[Ricardo]

They had their chance last year. Abhisit offered them an early election within three months.

To be accurate, the offer on TV was surely for a date some 5-6 months ahead, not "within three months" ? But IMO they certainly should have taken him up on it, as they initially appeared willing to, until the mysterious SMS.

As it is, they have allowed the government longer to establish themselves, and introduce a whole raft of populist/good-for-the-poor measures, which can't help the PTP's chances. Add-in their ongoing leadership-problem. Not good, for them, at least.

Edited January 16, 2011 by Ricardo

[jdinasia]

No that wasn't my intent, and it's not what I think about Thai employers.

I suppose my comment was less than flattering about the social and intellectual calibre of visa runners (and those "businessmen" who are in reality visa runners) .. but that's a different story.

I wonder if jayboy can stand the light .......

Jayboy, who are these businessmen specifically that are visa-runners you keep referring to? I am guessing you will stand mute on this direct question.

BTW -- I don't think I have made the claim that I am upper-middle class, I do think I have made the claim that my Thai partner comes from an upper middleclass background and is upper middle class. (I come from a middle-class acedemic family. My father is a retired professor etc) As far as your other attacks on my education etc ....... Pttttttt't't't.

You are still imho a bigot when it comes to how you talk about the "sino-thai"

Ricardo ---- since the offered election would have been after October 1st and Thaksin wanted to control the military reshuffle ---- November elections were out o the question.

[jdinasia]

lol ... Sino-Thai business class? Jayboy are you assuming that there is any difference in how the Thai/Chinese ethnic group pays and treats employees in Thailand compared to other groups? If so, can you show any empirical evidence of this? Yet again the attack on the Thai Chinese ethnic group? Why? Your basic premise seems to be that businesses all tend to use the same typical policies to maximize profits, so singling out this group you attack over and over smacks of bigotry to me.

You have elsewhere proclaimed you are "well educated and, less convincingly, "upper middle class."

Yet you have difficulty in understanding a simple proposition which has been made several times, namely that to point out that business in THailand is dominated overwhelmingly by Sino-Thais is not the same as making an attack on that community.Got it now?

Your other points I have dealt with elsewhere.

You didn't address the question ..... you shifted the focus away from the question.

So again,

"Jayboy are you assuming that there is any difference in how the Thai/Chinese ethnic group pays and treats employees in Thailand compared to other groups?"

Your personal attacks have been dealt with elsewhere

[jayboy]

I wonder if jayboy can stand the light .......

Jayboy, who are these businessmen specifically that are visa-runners you keep referring to? I am guessing you will stand mute on this direct question.

BTW -- I don't think I have made the claim that I am upper-middle class, I do think I have made the claim that my Thai partner comes from an upper middleclass background and is upper middle class. (I come from a middle-class acedemic family. My father is a retired professor etc) As far as your other attacks on my education etc ....... Pttttttt't't't.

You are still imho a bigot when it comes to how you talk about the "sino-thai"

Sorry I don't do personal stuff and would suggest you follow my line.

I note you are calling me a bigot again despite my careful explanations.I suspect for reasons unknown you just don't like the term "Sino-Thai"

As to your background you can pretend to be anything you like.Nobody cares but for the sake of plausibility I should avoid playing the upper middle class Oxbridge type if I were you.

[jdinasia]

He stood mute on the direct question ... said he didn't "do personal" and closed with a personal attack!

Gotta love Jayboy

[Buchholz]

He stood mute on the direct question ... said he didn't "do personal" and closed with a personal attack!

Gotta love Jayboy

Standard Operating Procedure, ver. 2.0

[taff33]

Red shirt leader Thida warns Ratchaprasong businessp eople not to be enemies of group; Jatuporn says worsening econ not as bad as dead reds /TAN_Network

"Red shirt leader Thida warns Ratchaprasong business people not to be enemies of group"

Is this another example of red democracy?

"Jatuporn says worsening econ not as bad as dead reds"

I think most people think otherwise. What matters to most people are their own money and income, health and wellbeing, family and friends. All the whining about some crazy protesters who died due to their own stupidity is irrelevant irritating noise.

I am sure the dead young nurse who got shot will be coming to haunt you. What a stupid man you are :jerk: :jerk: :jerk:

[rixalex]

Sorry I don't do personal stuff and would suggest you follow my line.

You might recognise these quotes:

You are possibly letting your dislike and ignorance...

Sorry but your tunnel vision is showing....

If you had any self awareness you might understand....

Accusing someone of ignorance, tunnel vision and no self awareness, seems pretty personal to me.

[jayjay0]

<br>

<br>

<br>I wasn't making a moral judgement, simply querying whether the benevolent Quaker employment philosophy has many followers among the Sino-Thai business class.<br>

<br><br>lol ... Sino-Thai business class? Jayboy are you assuming that there is any difference in how the Thai/Chinese ethnic group pays and treats employees in Thailand compared to other groups? If so, can you show any empirical evidence of this? Yet again the attack on the Thai Chinese ethnic group? Why? Your basic premise seems to be that businesses all tend to use the same typical policies to maximize profits, so singling out this group you attack over and over smacks of bigotry to me.<br>

<br><br>You have elsewhere proclaimed you are "well educated  and, less convincingly, "upper middle class."<br><br>Yet you have difficulty in understanding a simple proposition which has been made several times, namely that to point out that business in THailand is dominated overwhelmingly by Sino-Thais is not the same as making an attack on that community.Got it now?<br><br>Your other points I have dealt with elsewhere.<br>

Just out of curiosity jayboy why are you always in conflict. To me you come across as a full blown bigot.

I suppose you have posted these answers else where. Besides what has all this got to do with the Original heading.I just checked in to this because I was bored and it was a no brainier. Now that I am here I see I should have stayed a way.

I noticed right of the bat on page 1 you were defending the red shirts rite to interfere with the same business community on a regular base. And You know that (strike that) should know that it is just a pep rally to recharge there batteries. They tend to run down when some one isn't standing next to you saying what you want to hear.

One more question do you even like yourself?

Edited January 16, 2011 by jayjay0

[hyperdimension]

Red shirt leader Thida warns Ratchaprasong businessp eople not to be enemies of group; Jatuporn says worsening econ not as bad as dead reds /TAN_Network

"Red shirt leader Thida warns Ratchaprasong business people not to be enemies of group"

Is this another example of red democracy?

"Jatuporn says worsening econ not as bad as dead reds"

I think most people think otherwise. What matters to most people are their own money and income, health and wellbeing, family and friends. All the whining about some crazy protesters who died due to their own stupidity is irrelevant irritating noise.

I am sure the dead young nurse who got shot will be coming to haunt you. What a stupid man you are :jerk: :jerk: :jerk:

I do not include that nurse in the category "crazy protesters who died due to their own stupidity". If she was a UDD supporter, there would be no doubt that the UDD would use her death to smear the government. If she was a government supporter and strongly anti-UDD and anti-Thaksin, I'm sure they wouldn't be crying for her, as they only whine about deaths of "reds".

My post was to highlight the fact that most people would rather get on with their own lives.

Edited January 17, 2011 by hyperdimension

[jdinasia]

Sorry I don't do personal stuff and would suggest you follow my line.

You might recognise these quotes:

You are possibly letting your dislike and ignorance...

Sorry but your tunnel vision is showing....

If you had any self awareness you might understand....

Accusing someone of ignorance, tunnel vision and no self awareness, seems pretty personal to me.

Hmmm it doesn't seem that people are buying into jayboy's denials,

The 2 outstanding questions are

1) Do Thai/Chinese business men treat their employees any worse than other businessmen in Thailand.

and

2) Who specifically was he referring to as a when he was speaking of a business man that he claims is a visa-runner?

(both seem to be relevant to the thread since this is about businessmen in Thailand

[taff33]

]

I think most people think otherwise. What matters to most people are their own money and income, health and wellbeing, family and friends. All the whining about some crazy protesters who died due to their own stupidity is irrelevant irritating noise.

I am sure the dead young nurse who got shot will be coming to haunt you. What a stupid man you are :jerk: :jerk: :jerk:

I do not include that nurse in the category "crazy protesters who died due to their own stupidity". If she was a UDD supporter, there would be no doubt that the UDD would use her death to smear the government. If she was a government supporter and strongly anti-UDD and anti-Thaksin, I'm sure they wouldn't be crying for her, as they only whine about deaths of "reds".

My post was to highlight the fact that most people would rather get on with their own lives.

It doesn't matter udd or goverment the girl was shot by the goverment (soldiers) when she was in a temple,and don't try to say show me the proof. Protest is the only way for change if we didn't have change we would still have slavery,children 7-8-9 years of age working down the mines,do you think it was "crazy protesters"who helped to change this.

[jayboy]

The 2 outstanding questions are

1) Do Thai/Chinese business men treat their employees any worse than other businessmen in Thailand.

and

2) Who specifically was he referring to as a when he was speaking of a business man that he claims is a visa-runner?

(both seem to be relevant to the thread since this is about businessmen in Thailand

Of course you can find like minded acolytes on this forum.What comfort you draw from them is a matter for you.

As to (1) since the vast majority of businessmen are Sino-Thai, it's not a very intelligent question.

As to (2) I have no idea what's bugging you on this, specifically why you need to know names.Do you have some personal interest in visa running?

Moving away from your nonsense to the thread subject matter, there was an excellent article by Veera Prateepchaikul in the other paper this morning, analysing the spirit of compromise which has brought a sensible settlement between UDD and the Ratchaprasong business operators.

[jdinasia]

It doesn't matter udd or goverment the girl was shot by the goverment (soldiers) when she was in a temple,and don't try to say show me the proof. Protest is the only way for change if we didn't have change we would still have slavery,children 7-8-9 years of age working down the mines,do you think it was "crazy protesters"who helped to change this.

The nurse was "probably" shot by government troops would be more accurate. The rest is simply hyperbole. I am not sure what country/countries you are referring to with your slavery and child labor rants but where I am from "protest" particularly armed violent protest did not end any of those things.

[taff33]

It doesn't matter udd or goverment the girl was shot by the goverment (soldiers) when she was in a temple,and don't try to say show me the proof. Protest is the only way for change if we didn't have change we would still have slavery,children 7-8-9 years of age working down the mines,do you think it was "crazy protesters"who helped to change this.

The nurse was "probably" shot by government troops would be more accurate. The rest is simply hyperbole. I am not sure what country/countries you are referring to with your slavery and child labor rants but where I am from "protest" particularly armed violent protest did not end any of those things.

i am sure if you read some history books of 1800's you will find out

[jdinasia]

The 2 outstanding questions are

1) Do Thai/Chinese business men treat their employees any worse than other businessmen in Thailand.

and

2) Who specifically was he referring to as a when he was speaking of a business man that he claims is a visa-runner?

(both seem to be relevant to the thread since this is about businessmen in Thailand

Of course you can find like minded acolytes on this forum.What comfort you draw from them is a matter for you.

As to (1) since the vast majority of businessmen are Sino-Thai, it's not a very intelligent question.

As to (2) I have no idea what's bugging you on this, specifically why you need to know names.Do you have some personal interest in visa running?

Moving away from your nonsense to the thread subject matter, there was an excellent article by Veera Prateepchaikul in the other paper this morning, analysing the spirit of compromise which has brought a sensible settlement between UDD and the Ratchaprasong business operators.

1) The "vast majority of businessmen are Sino-Thai"? wow ... I'll point that out the next time I pass the local minimart! Many major businessmen are Sino-Thai might be accurate ... the vast majority would, however, be Thai and not Thai-Chinese. You sidestepped the direct question again though.

2) You made the point about business men that are visa runners in this thread (and this thread is about businessmen in Thailand (particularly ratchaprasong) --- yet you duck another direct question because you were deliberately baiting when you made it. Strangely when I make a statement, I have the courage to back it up even if only with an opinion (labelled as such) and more usually with facts.

Again -- do Thai-Chinese businessmen treat their employees any worse than other groups of businessmen in Thailand? (You might be able to make a case that they do indeed when compared to farang businessmen, but there are plenty of blatant examples to disprove that claim. There are no ready examples that I know of to show that they treat employees any worse than ethnically Thai employers. In fact the major corporations tend to do better by their employees than most smaller ones, so if your case is that Sino-Thais control the big business in Thailand it would appear that you are arguing that they make better employers if I understand your position

Oh ---- and I'll be back in about 1/2 an hour .. I have a quick meeting to be at, at one of our offices here in Chiang Mai

I don't think I have ANY acolytes in Thailand though some people seem to agree with some of my points. One they agree with is that you make personal attacks all too often

[Buchholz]

Taken from Editorial Section, Kom Chad Leuk Newspaper, Page 4, January 17, 2011

Translated and Rewritten by Kongkrai Maksrivorawan

Rally at Ratchaprasong

Despite their earnest struggle for democracy, one of the main reasons the red shirts have not been able to win over the middle-class people in the urban areas and to expand beyond just the loyalists of former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra is because their lack of consideration for others.

The Ratchaprasong Intersection has become a symbolic place for the red shirts to gather ever since their rally was relocated from Rajadamnoen Road. After the fatal crackdown in which many protesters were killed, the Ratchaprason area was given a place in the history of the red shirts’ so-called struggle for democracy.

However, unlike the Rajadamnoen Road, which has long been known as a historical location, the Ratchaprasong Intersection is the country's commercial and economic center. There are many shopping malls and hotels in the area which are occupied by all types of businesses. These businesses are linked to the livelihoods of a massive number of people. During the red shirt rally from April to May of 2010, the businesses there came to a halt. As a result, many have lost their jobs.

This time around, the red shirts have again turned a deaf ear on a plea for the rallies to be held elsewhere.

The red shirts and other political groups are guaranteed by Article 63 of the 2008 Charter the right to peaceful assembly. However, this right could be revoked by the laws to protect others’ rights in public places. Simply put, all public gatherings must be held without causing disruption to other people’s lives. However, some groups have misunderstood that to hold a demonstration is to cause trouble for the innocents, otherwise their objectives will not be met. This has proven to be untrue in past political unrest.

The red shirt protesters maybe satisfied in believing that they can gather at a historically significant place, where many of their comrades fell. However, others, especially those who are making a living in the area, might not feel the same way. Is the democracy that the red shirts are preaching about the same democracy that will make others suffer? How can they claim to be protecting their own rights by violating others’?

-- Tan Network 2011-01-17

[whybother]

^ How many died at Ratchaprasong? None? Most died around the outskirts of the protest area, around Din Daeng and Rama IV. Maybe they need to move their current rallies there.