Rally At Bangkok's Ratchaprasong

[jackr]

Despite their earnest struggle for democracy, one of the main reasons the red shirts have not been able to win over the middle-class people in the urban areas and to expand beyond just the loyalists of former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra is because their lack of consideration for others.

Not to back the Reds, and trying very hard not to sound cynical, but when do Thais (IN GENERAL) show any consideration for others as a rule?

Edited January 18, 2011 by jackr

[Siam Simon]

cut// If they stayed after the April attacks when Seh Daeng's ronin took out so many people .. they knew. //cut

Conspiracy theory speculation presented as fact yet again. It's soooo important for the myth to be propagated by the forum's right-wing extremists.

[timekeeper]

Okay, let's talk about all the honest hard working citizens who lost there means of support. It was very unfortunate collateral damage. Unfortunate collateral damage in the same sense right-wingers use to describe some of those who were killed last year, except they won't be back to turn their lives around.

Correct, and the leaders that led to that 'collateral damage' are ..

1) In jail, and have just been denied bail again while the cases against them for terrorism and inciting riots etc continue.

2) Out on bail through exercising parliamentary immunity.

3) Ensconced in the wall of a temple (that's a guess-- not a fact) in the case of Seh Daeng.

4) Fled the country (Arisaman and others)

5) Fled the country much earlier and now apparently holding at least a Montenegro passport (even though he promised his collateral damage that he woud be there when the first bullet was fired). and is convicted on one count of corruption and charged with other offenses including terrorism and funding terrorism.

The world isn't fair to those suffering ARMED reds and the people that mixed with them by choice as a sort of human shield.

a senior policeman friend of mine says that Arisaman is dead

he says shot in Cambodia by an undercover team.

its not been announced by either side to avoid problems with the sheeple

[Siam Simon]

cut// in my view, som nom na to them all and mak mak to Thaksin

"They that sow the wind, shall reap the whirlwind"..........

Like I have said before, i think that people who express such daft, insensitive opinions should be obliged by law to spend time cleaning up the mess of severed limbs and splattered brains, and be obliged to spend time working with grieving families and with people who have suffered life-changing injuries. Som nam na indeed. Ugh!!!

[mistakurtz]

the red/yellow divide is a typical class struggle. The poor are tired of being poor and used, the rich don't want to share. Yellow

shirts demonize the poor, who want a portion of what the Yellows have. The yellows dehumanize the oppressed because they don't want to give up privilege. these are big historical in collisions. Leaders of any color that press their obvious biases won't change anything; they will collide.

[newermonkey]

Well written and an accurate assessment.

But on a lighter note: Next time they gather get some crop duster aircraft and spray them all with a special dog shit aroma mixed in with a long lasting itching powder, that might be fun to see (Does anyone think I am pure evil?)

[mistakurtz]

Well written and an accurate assessment.

But on a lighter note: Next time they gather get some crop duster aircraft and spray them all with a special dog shit aroma mixed in with a long lasting itching powder, that might be fun to see (Does anyone think I am pure evil?)

Yes he said, with a smile.

[jayjay0]

Well written and an accurate assessment.

But on a lighter note: Next time they gather get some crop duster aircraft and spray them all with a special dog shit aroma mixed in with a long lasting itching powder, that might be fun to see (Does anyone think I am pure evil?)

More like pure genius.

[hanuman1]

Well written and an accurate assessment.

But on a lighter note: Next time they gather get some crop duster aircraft and spray them all with a special dog shit aroma mixed in with a long lasting itching powder, that might be fun to see (Does anyone think I am pure evil?)

More like pure genius.

I see the level of argument coming from the far right has improved recently.

[jdinasia]

the red/yellow divide is a typical class struggle. The poor are tired of being poor and used, the rich don't want to share. Yellow

shirts demonize the poor, who want a portion of what the Yellows have. The yellows dehumanize the oppressed because they don't want to give up privilege. these are big historical in collisions. Leaders of any color that press their obvious biases won't change anything; they will collide.

Not even close to being accurate. It is however what the reds would like you to think. It isn't a class struggle (look at the bank accounts of the folks backing the reds --- start from Thaksin and work your way down the list!) It is one group of elite (financially) fighting an alpha-dog dominance fight with another group of elite (financially), You could almost make a case for it is old money vs. new money, but many of the red backers have been rich for generations ....

[jdinasia]

cut// in my view, som nom na to them all and mak mak to Thaksin

"They that sow the wind, shall reap the whirlwind"..........

Like I have said before, i think that people who express such daft, insensitive opinions should be obliged by law to spend time cleaning up the mess of severed limbs and splattered brains, and be obliged to spend time working with grieving families and with people who have suffered life-changing injuries. Som nam na indeed. Ugh!!!

You mean working with the soldiers and the families of soldiers that were killed and maimed by the red insurrection? Nah .....

Though some people helping the victims of the red leadership's cowardly (with the exception of Seh Daeng) manipulations and showing them how they had been so callously used as sacrificial lambs by their leaders might possibly do some good.

[jdinasia]

cut// If they stayed after the April attacks when Seh Daeng's ronin took out so many people .. they knew. //cut

Conspiracy theory speculation presented as fact yet again. It's soooo important for the myth to be propagated by the forum's right-wing extremists.

No conspiracy theory at all. Seh Daeng referred to them as "my ronin" (misnomer for sure!) and Weng warned of their guerilla tactics, and there is plenty of video evidence of their presence AMONGST the rank and file red. The myth is strictly on your part SS.

[jdinasia]

The government has been careful not to either allow it or disallow it, per se. They have left it to the BMA to deal with. Scroll back up for the "why" as I see it. The government tact of letting tensions rise while remaining "neutral" and then offering legitimate compromise solutions in the end takes the air out of the red leaders ... builds confidence in them locally, and softens the more moderate red leaning rural people's feelings. It is about the only response that can work when dealing with the reds. They must remain the badguys and the government must appear willing to compromise. That way when the reds refuse compromise they lose even more support.

and with that it is WAY past my bedtime .....

Where I come from, this is known as 'flip-flopping' - not the sign of a strong government.

Doesn't this appear a bit Machiavellian to you? (I guess not)

Spoken like a political campaign manager. There is actually more depth to the redshirt grievances than 500Bt per day, wouldn't you agree?

Nighty night.

Hanuman --- I had to remove the individual quoted material due to the board's limit on quotes --- I left your remarks intact and people can go back to your post if confused.

Flip flopping it isn't ---- passing the buck? possibly. In actuality it is managing PR, and not giving the reds the response they are seeking.

Do I agree that there is more depth to the redshirt grievances? --- Depends on your definition of redshirt. There was no more depth to the grievances posted at the rally nor to the PTP's actions to date as an opposition party. Do the rural poor have honest grievances? ABSOLUTELY. They just aren't represented at all by the redshirt leadership or their violent rhetoric.

Ummmm not Machiavellian, just sop from Mao's little red book. Politics makes strange bedfellows ---- Mor Weng (and Thida) were heavily involved with the CPT for a long time, Seh Daeng often bragged about how many people from the CPT he had killed. I am not suggesting that the redshirts are all Maoist (far from it! -- look at the rest of their leaders!) I am suggesting the battles they are waging fit the pattern. The way forward for most insurgencies is to have an aggressive (violent insurgency) action arm and a passive political arm. I am suggesting that the government knows the playbook and is not allowing the reds to use it effectively. The SOP for a military faced by these tactics is to become even more repressive, and thus fueling the insurgency while making other people question their tactics. Instead the Abhisit government has moved slowly and carefully. Always countering the hawks in their midst with patience, until the people demand action. This works to counter the tactics of the insurgency quite well. It lets the military end up as the scapegoat for the suppression of the insurgency instead of the government. If you think I am wrong I could understand it ---- but I think the results show this to be true. This is the first government ever to survive the army firing on "civilians" (I still would not call anyone in the rally site by choice a civilian --- but there were certainly plenty of dupes there!) Why did they survive? The perceived restrain practiced early on. The slow and steady push on the reds giving the innocent DAYS to clear out.

timekeeper --- I doubt the story about Arisaman. Just as I doubt that is something like that had occurred a policeman would be privy to the information.

[SomTumTiger]

It is all over for them they are no more. Obviously none of them were supporting families they were not working and Mr RT said I will give you money to cause trouble in Thailand.And off they went. with there rocket launchers to peacfully protest.

Grow up give me a break.

Obviously. Have fun in whatever planet you're on. And by the way, correct spelling (we call it 'literacy') doesn't make it even into the Democrat manifesto. Post seriously if you want to be taken as such.

Criticizing grammar and spelling - the last bastion of the defeated red.

[Buchholz]

the red/yellow divide is a typical class struggle. The poor are tired of being poor and used, the rich don't want to share. Yellow

shirts demonize the poor, who want a portion of what the Yellows have. The yellows dehumanize the oppressed because they don't want to give up privilege. these are big historical in collisions. Leaders of any color that press their obvious biases won't change anything; they will collide.

How do the Reds that are rich, elite and the yellows that are poor fit into your picture?

[thaihome]

the red/yellow divide is a typical class struggle. The poor are tired of being poor and used, the rich don't want to share. Yellow

shirts demonize the poor, who want a portion of what the Yellows have. The yellows dehumanize the oppressed because they don't want to give up privilege. these are big historical in collisions. Leaders of any color that press their obvious biases won't change anything; they will collide.

How do the Reds that are rich, elite and the yellows that are poor fit into your picture?

Don't expect an answer too quickly. He will have to check with Robert Amsterdam first and get back with the answer.

TH

[hanuman1]

It is all over for them they are no more. Obviously none of them were supporting families they were not working and Mr RT said I will give you money to cause trouble in Thailand.And off they went. with there rocket launchers to peacfully protest.

Grow up give me a break.

Obviously. Have fun in whatever planet you're on. And by the way, correct spelling (we call it 'literacy') doesn't make it even into the Democrat manifesto. Post seriously if you want to be taken as such.

Criticizing grammar and spelling - the last bastion of the defeated red.

*sigh* You can spell however you like - what do I care? I merely brought it up because sometimes an inability to spell leads to the use of words with a different meaning than what was intended. Like 'there' and 'their', above.

One liners - the last bastion of the deluded yellows.

[gemini81]

the red/yellow divide is a typical class struggle. The poor are tired of being poor and used, the rich don't want to share. Yellow

shirts demonize the poor, who want a portion of what the Yellows have. The yellows dehumanize the oppressed because they don't want to give up privilege. these are big historical in collisions. Leaders of any color that press their obvious biases won't change anything; they will collide.

not just rich vs. poor....a lotta those red shirt leaders are anything but poor! people say that, but it's certainly not true...some country bumpkins up there in isaan are doing well oppressing others just fine without any yellow shirts or whatever.For that group, the blind followers are those who really just don't wanna work or change their life to live a more successful life, but instead get free handouts, like winning the lottery, and not having to change your lazy lifestyle...so they hope their rich crook thaksin will return from the abyss and give free money and more endless loans they can't pay back, like it occured before.

Edited January 18, 2011 by gemini81

[Emptyset]

Don't expect an answer too quickly. He will have to check with Robert Amsterdam first and get back with the answer.

TH

Thaihome is one of those conspiracy theorists that think everyone who expresses any vaguely pro-red sentiment must be colluding with Amsterdam. There seems to be a few of these types around at the moment, unfortunately. Which is one of the reasons I don't like Amsterdam, but I suppose if there is any reason to like him, it's that he irritates the likes of TH.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Emptyset

[jdinasia]

Don't expect an answer too quickly. He will have to check with Robert Amsterdam first and get back with the answer.

TH

Thaihome is one of those conspiracy theorists that think everyone who expresses any vaguely pro-red sentiment must be colluding with Amsterdam. There seems to be a few of these types around at the moment, unfortunately. Which is one of the reasons I don't like Amsterdam, but I suppose if there is any reason to like him, it's that he irritates the likes of TH.

Hmmmmm so you are saying th is the anti-thaksin version of truethailand (who constantly makes the statements that the anti-thaksin posters are paid to post)? No wait --- TH didn't say check with his boss R. Amsterdam. So maybe he just meant that without a well founded opinion he would need to go back to where he got his last parroted opinion from? ..... Hmmm it is all speculation anyways.

What we know is that Thida has threatened (warned) the businessmen not to make themselves enemies of the redshirts/UDD ... We do know that the reds have to step up the confrontation in order to make the government look bad or they just continue to lose ground ... We do know that there appears to be yet another schism inside of PTP which of course just aint good news for the reds (and the pro-red posters)

[timekeeper]

cut// in my view, som nom na to them all and mak mak to Thaksin

"They that sow the wind, shall reap the whirlwind"..........

Like I have said before, i think that people who express such daft, insensitive opinions should be obliged by law to spend time cleaning up the mess of severed limbs and splattered brains, and be obliged to spend time working with grieving families and with people who have suffered life-changing injuries. Som nam na indeed. Ugh!!!

they knew the risks, its not as if protesters have not been shot before in Thailand is it?

if they did not want to run those risks then they should not have been there for their 500 baht

i would venture to say it is those who did were daft to do so and those who support that daftness are even dafter.

and if you have said it before then you are double dafter or even triple because you know it will not do any good

you can say it until you are blue in the face.........or should that be red?

even though i am sure that the reds should they ever get in power will enact such a cleaning law to keep descenters quiet its never gonna happen

red is soooooooo last year and Abhisit and Korn are going to walk the next election with a landslide victory

so its a blooming big som nom na to you too!

Edited January 18, 2011 by timekeeper

[thaihome]

Don't expect an answer too quickly. He will have to check with Robert Amsterdam first and get back with the answer.

TH

Thaihome is one of those conspiracy theorists that think everyone who expresses any vaguely pro-red sentiment must be colluding with Amsterdam. There seems to be a few of these types around at the moment, unfortunately. Which is one of the reasons I don't like Amsterdam, but I suppose if there is any reason to like him, it's that he irritates the likes of TH.

I did not say colluding, did I? Putting words in my mouth there, aren’t you.

What I meant was since all that poster has obviously read is the one sided, half truths produced by Amsterdam and Amsterdam never mentions the fact that the UDD leadership and funders are part of the “elite” he would be stumped for an answer.

TH

[Emptyset]

Hmmmmm so you are saying th is the anti-thaksin version of truethailand (who constantly makes the statements that the anti-thaksin posters are paid to post)? No wait --- TH didn't say check with his boss R. Amsterdam. So maybe he just meant that without a well founded opinion he would need to go back to where he got his last parroted opinion from? ..... Hmmm it is all speculation anyways.

He seems to mention Amsterdam a lot, that's all. And I'm pretty sure he's accused people of being either in his pay or having some "agenda". Anyway, I don't really care about that. Just seems TH is overly-fixated with what Amsterdam is doing or saying. I'm not here to psychoanalyze the guy. I'd say most people here know more about Thailand than Amsterdam, and even many pro-reds consider him an idiot that reds would be better off without.

What we know is that Thida has threatened (warned) the businessmen not to make themselves enemies of the redshirts/UDD ...

Yeah and what is Thida going to do about it if they make enemies of the red shirts? Tell them not to shop there again? She might've just said "please don't make enemies of us", but the news agency reported that as her "threatening" them for all I know.

We do know that the reds have to step up the confrontation in order to make the government look bad or they just continue to lose ground ... We do know that there appears to be yet another schism inside of PTP which of course just aint good news for the reds (and the pro-red posters)

No, we don't know that. That's also just speculation. I for one think that "stepping up the confrontation" is more likely to lose them ground. And what do you mean, continue to lose ground? They just had a rally with like, 40,000... not much evidence to suggest they've lost much support at all. PTP are a different matter.

[Emptyset]

I did not say colluding, did I? Putting words in my mouth there, aren't you.

What I meant was since all that poster has obviously read is the one sided, half truths produced by Amsterdam and Amsterdam never mentions the fact that the UDD leadership and funders are part of the "elite" he would be stumped for an answer.

TH

I said that because you've been rolling on about Amsterdam before... I think the vast majority of people sympathetic to reds will have been sympathetic to them before Amsterdam appeared on the scene (why bother reading him if you're not already sympathetic?), and Amsterdam hasn't really made difference at all to them. He might just have provided one or two talking points. The stuff Amsterdam writes is mostly rehashes of well known red shirt themes and simplifications of books/essays written by academics. At least as far as I can see. I can only see Amsterdam having an influence on foreigners who aren't generally interested in Thai politics and even so, there are plenty of other writers/academics plus newspaper reports etc that criticize the current government. You wouldn't have to read Amsterdam to take a pro-red line, that's for sure.

Anyway, I just read the post you're responding to, the last line was: "Leaders of any color that press their obvious biases won't change anything; they will collide." Doesn't sound particularly pro-UDD to me. In fact there's absolutely no reason to believe he's read any Amsterdam from reading the post you're responding to. The line I quote seems to suggest the poster actually agrees with you that both sets of leaders are part of the "elite"*. But I'm sure Mistakurtz will tell us if he's read any Amsterdam, or if he even knows who he is.

Edit: *Or maybe it doesn't. Don't want to put words in his mouth. Let's let Mistakurtz explain what he thinks of the red shirt leaders.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Emptyset

[thaihome]

.... You wouldn't have to read Amsterdam to take a pro-red line, that's for sure.

No, but you do have to ignore the realities of Thailand politics to take a pro-red line.

TH

[Nisa]

Despite their earnest struggle for democracy, one of the main reasons the red shirts have not been able to win over the middle-class people in the urban areas and to expand beyond just the loyalists of former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra is because their lack of consideration for others.

Not to back the Reds, and trying very hard not to sound cynical, but when do Thais (IN GENERAL) show any consideration for others as a rule?

Thats not fair. I see Thais everyday being considerate of others all the time. Even on my way from the subway tonight I witnessed many acts of consideration. First of all everyone waiting for the train waited for near 1/2 the people exiting to get off the train before pushing their way on. If these people were inconsiderate they wouldn't wait for anyone to get off before getting on. Then one women whose phone rang as she was about to get on the escalator. She only stopped at the foot of the escalator long enough to fish the phone out of her purse, answer the call and give a couple ja ja's before moving on. She could have blocked the escalators much longer had she decided to chit chat longer. And as I walked home and passed the stopped people on the sidewalks having conversation and the internet cafes with all the parked motorcycles blocking the sidewalk not one car hit me as I was forced to walk in the busy street. Not to mention the intersections with traffic cops doing their absolute best to make sure each driver knew they need not slow down or be concerned about pedestrians crossing the street.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Nisa

[Emptyset]

.... You wouldn't have to read Amsterdam to take a pro-red line, that's for sure.

No, but you do have to ignore the realities of Thailand politics to take a pro-red line.

TH

No, you don't. Many people are fully aware of the intra-elite struggle and the problems with the red leadership but still care about the underlying grievances. As I said before, this is an opportunity, but it could easily be wasted if reds mindlessly follow the likes of Jatuporn.

[jdinasia]

No, you don't. Many people are fully aware of the intra-elite struggle and the problems with the red leadership but still care about the underlying grievances. As I said before, this is an opportunity, but it could easily be wasted if reds mindlessly follow the likes of Jatuporn.

If you can still support the reds after their tactics (and continued tactics) then you are far more "right wing" than I am. (Using hanuman's terms ---- neither right-wing nor left-wing seem to clearly apply in Thailand imho)

[Nisa]

.... You wouldn't have to read Amsterdam to take a pro-red line, that's for sure.

No, but you do have to ignore the realities of Thailand politics to take a pro-red line.

TH

No, you don't. Many people are fully aware of the intra-elite struggle and the problems with the red leadership but still care about the underlying grievances. As I said before, this is an opportunity, but it could easily be wasted if reds mindlessly follow the likes of Jatuporn.

But the problem is the Reds don't take a stand in regards to making things better for the poor except for their continued broken record demand of what they think is democracy. Their demands back in April were not to better the lives of the poor but simply to disband the current government immediately at any cost to the country. They cannot be taken seriously as being interested in democracy when their only agenda is to oust the leaders in charge if they are not those they want. Maybe they do believe in the struggle of the poor based on their choosing Red as their color and the number of communist Red Star caps I see at the rallies and if their goal is to make Thailand a communist nation then this may explain the lack of any proposed policies or grievances beyond trying to overthrow the government.

Yes, people are aware of the class struggles in Thailand AND MOST DO CARE but the answer is not the reds as they have blown all credibility. A more moderate fraction needs to break off from this group in order for the poor to be represented seriously and allow others to understand what it is they want and how they believe it can happen. The truth of the matter is people who are not Reds are by far not yellows. The vast majority of people I know in BKK do not at all consider themselves Yellows but do support Abhisit and do think the Reds are either lunatics or too ignorant or selfish to care what their leaders are doing to them. These people support Abhisit because he is rational and cares about Thailand and its people as a whole. However, if somebody else better came along and had better ideas how to create more opportunity for all in Thailand they would support that person. And anybody who subscribes to Red's believes, in their mind, cannot be trusted or is a lunatic and this is a result of how the Reds have acted and their inability to communicate any kind of rational ideas or even their grievances except for trying to intimidate and/or cripple the current government into resigning. If they do not get their leaders in power next elections (and I don't believe they will) then you can expect more of this nonsense and more reasons why it will only be democratic here in Thailand if Thaksin or a puppet of his is back in running the show.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Nisa

[jayboy]

[quote name='Nisa' timestamp='

But the problem is the Reds don't take a stand in regards to making things better for the poor except for their continued broken record demand of what the think is democracy. Their demands back in April were not to better the lives of the poor but simply to disband the current government immediately at any cost to the country. The cannot be taken seriously as being interested in democracy when their only agenda is to oust the leaders in charge if they are not those they want. Maybe they do believe in the struggle of the poor based on their choosing Red as their color and the number of communist Red Star caps I see at the rallies and if their goal is to make Thailand a communist nation then this may explain the lack of any proposed policies or grievances beyond trying to overthrow the government.

Yes, people are aware of the class struggles in Thailand AND MOST DO CARE but the answer is not the reds as they have blown all credibility. A more moderate fraction needs to break off from this group in order for the poor to be represented seriously and allow others to understand what it is they want and how they believe it can happen. The truth of the matter is people who are not Reds are by far not yellows. The vast majority of people I know in BKK do not at all consider themselves Yellows but do support Abhisit and do think the Reds are either lunatics or too ignorant or selfish to care what their leaders are doing to them.

I don't think any reasonable person could be other than disappointed in the quality of Red leadership.However your comments are politically rather naive and in places fatuous (your commie gibes) and there is no indication from what you say why there was a massive and general welcome for the Reds in Bangkok before it all went pear shaped.It's not for you or I to talk patronisingly of the need for "moderate factions" to break off.Yes there was a demand for the Government to hold elections - hardly surprising given the outrageous bias shown by the various organs of state (I am being deliberately vague) in shoring up elite interests.I support Abhisit as well but it doesn't mean I don't sympathise with the Red movement.