Buddhism & Gambling

[TRIPxCORE]

Seeing as Buddhism is, in a sense, a practice of self-discipline, is gambling thought of to be wrong according to Buddhism? If so, why is it that so many devout Thai buddhists gamble? I see many of them pray, go to the temple, have all sorts of shrines & statues around dedicated to Buddhism yet continue to gamble. If one is going to practice a particular way of thought, in this case Buddhism, one should try to abide by all the teachings and not just the ones that are convenient right? Can someone with more knowledge about Buddhism explain this to me please?

[sabaijai]

"There are, young householder, these six evil consequences in indulging in gambling:

(i) the winner begets hate,

(ii) the loser grieves for lost wealth,

(iii) loss of wealth,

(iv) his word is not relied upon in a court of law,

(v) he is despised by his friends and associates,

(vi) he is not sought after for matrimony; for people would say he is a gambler and is not fit to look after a wife."

--Sigalovada Sutta: The Layman's Code of Discipline

"These are the four drains on one's store of wealth: debauchery in sex; debauchery in drink; debauchery in gambling; and evil friendship, evil companionship, evil camaraderie. Just as if there were a great reservoir with four inlets and four drains, and a man were to close the inlets and open the drains, and the sky were not to pour down proper showers, the depletion of that great reservoir could be expected, not its increase. In the same way, these are the four drains on one's store of wealth: debauchery in sex; debauchery in drink; debauchery in gambling; and evil friendship, evil companionship, evil camaraderie.

These are the four inlets to one's store of wealth: no debauchery in sex; no debauchery in drink; no debauchery in gambling; and admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie. Just as if there were a great reservoir with four inlets and four drains, and a man were to open the inlets and close the drains, and the sky were to pour down proper showers, the increase of that great reservoir could be expected, not its depletion. In the same way, these are the four inlets to one's store of wealth: no debauchery in sex; no debauchery in drink; no debauchery in gambling; and admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie."

--Dighajanu Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya VIII.54

So it would seem that while gambling in itself is not considered wrong for the layperson (it is a precept violation for monks), it can be if indulged to a degree that produces 'evil consequences'.

I'm sure you can find many more instances where the daily actions of Thai (and Chinese, German, Australian, Vietnamese, Tibetan, etc) Buddhists regularly contradict the recommendations of the suttas. I'd suggest it's much the same in any religion and in almost every part of the world, i.e, few laypeople strictly follow the ethnical guidelines laid out by the religion they profess.

[Mr. Farang]

Seeing as Buddhism is, in a sense, a practice of self-discipline, is gambling thought of to be wrong according to Buddhism?  If so, why is it that so many devout Thai buddhists gamble?  I see many of them pray, go to the temple, have all sorts of shrines & statues around dedicated to Buddhism yet continue to gamble.  If one is going to practice a particular way of thought, in this case Buddhism, one should try to abide by all the teachings and not just the ones that are convenient right?  Can someone with more knowledge about Buddhism explain this to me please?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Each person lives with their own Kamma. Many Thais are Buddhist but do not practice Buddhism.

Furthermore, Buddhism is not really a "religion", it is more of a science, the science of the study of ones mind-body (based on the teaching of the Buddha), and not the study of the mind-body of others.

Footnote:

In the US, people are generally religious, why is there so much sex and violence on TV? To qoute Mr. Tripxcore, "If one is going to practice a particular way of thought, in this case Christianity, one should try to abide by all the teachings and not just the ones that are convenient right?"

(The original post seems somewhat like a "troll" to me - sorry).

[camerata]

Seeing as Buddhism is, in a sense, a practice of self-discipline, is gambling thought of to be wrong according to Buddhism?  If so, why is it that so many devout Thai buddhists gamble?  I see many of them pray, go to the temple, have all sorts of shrines & statues around dedicated to Buddhism yet continue to gamble.

I think we Westerners tend to be overly critical of others. Ajahn Chah's books have plenty of episodes where his Western disciples criticize other monks, the conditions at the temple, the teachings, and even Ajahn Chah himself! His advice was always along the lines of "concentrate on your own practice and don't concern yourself with what others do." At the end of the day, what does it matter if Thais consider themselves devout but don't follow all the teachings to the letter?

If one is going to practice a particular way of thought, in this case Buddhism, one should try to abide by all the teachings and not just the ones that are convenient right?  Can someone with more knowledge about Buddhism explain this to me please?

Well, let's face it, most Thais had no more choice about being a "born a Buddhist" than we did about being born Christians. They just got socialized into it and practise it in a way that is meaningful for them. It's not like they all made a conscious decision to become Buddhist, took the 5 Precepts and then went around breaking them.

[meadish_sweetball]

Thanks, Camerata. All very good points.

[Mr. Farang]

Seeing as Buddhism is, in a sense, a practice of self-discipline, is gambling thought of to be wrong according to Buddhism?  If so, why is it that so many devout Thai buddhists gamble?  I see many of them pray, go to the temple, have all sorts of shrines & statues around dedicated to Buddhism yet continue to gamble.

I think we Westerners tend to be overly critical of others. Ajahn Chah's books have plenty of episodes where his Western disciples criticize other monks, the conditions at the temple, the teachings, and even Ajahn Chah himself! His advice was always along the lines of "concentrate on your own practice and don't concern yourself with what others do." At the end of the day, what does it matter if Thais consider themselves devout but don't follow all the teachings to the letter?

If one is going to practice a particular way of thought, in this case Buddhism, one should try to abide by all the teachings and not just the ones that are convenient right?  Can someone with more knowledge about Buddhism explain this to me please?

Well, let's face it, most Thais had no more choice about being a "born a Buddhist" than we did about being born Christians. They just got socialized into it and practise it in a way that is meaningful for them. It's not like they all made a conscious decision to become Buddhist, took the 5 Precepts and then went around breaking them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Excellent post. Well said.

[TRIPxCORE]

Furthermore, Buddhism is not really a "religion"

There isnt one place in my post where I said it was a religion.  I know it is not and that is why I was careful to call it a "way of thought" and not a religion.

In the US, people are generally religious, why is there so much sex and violence on TV? To qoute Mr. Tripxcore,  "If one is going to practice a particular way of thought, in this case Christianity, one should try to abide by all the teachings and not just the ones that are convenient right?" 

(The original post seems somewhat like a "troll" to me - sorry).

Sir, you haven't the right to label anything I do as "troll".  I am one of the most senior members here at TV and I am asking a legitimate question to which I do not want to hear this "troll" label applied to me.  Anybody that has been around on this forum long enough knows that I am no troll.  With your limited time here you haven't the right to assign this label to anyone.

Perhaps I should have been more specific with my question.  I know a Thai person very well that is a devout Buddhist.  Tries to strictly abide by the teachings of Buddha, prays daily, goes to temple and even gave up eating beef as a sacrifice to Buddha.  This isnt a person that was born into it and just doesnt practice it.  This is a firm believer and practitioner.  The only thing this person loves to gamble.  Gambling is the only thing I can see that this person does that would go against Buddhism.  My question, for the Buddhist experts, is gambling considered bad for Buddhists?  If it is, why does this person who follows everything as strictly as possible let this slide without worry?

Keep that troll sh*t out of my conversation!

[sabaijai]

Yo brethren, don't forget our number-one rule here in the Buddhism forum: be cool.

I can understand why Mr Farang might have thought the question was trollish. Now that you've explained the context for your curiosity, TripXcore, I'm sure we all see that it was a sincere question.

[chownah]

...............

gave up eating beef as a sacrifice to Buddha. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't want to sound judgemental here and I'm only making this comment because is sounds like your friend is really trying to learn about Buddhist teachings so I'll make this comment in the spirit of helping your friend learn a bit more: I don't think that it is Buddhist doctrine to sacrifice things for the Buddha....I could be wrong here and if I am wrong I'm hoping that someone will come and explain it to me.

[Mr. Farang]

...............

gave up eating beef as a sacrifice to Buddha. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't want to sound judgemental here and I'm only making this comment because is sounds like your friend is really trying to learn about Buddhist teachings so I'll make this comment in the spirit of helping your friend learn a bit more: I don't think that it is Buddhist doctrine to sacrifice things for the Buddha....I could be wrong here and if I am wrong I'm hoping that someone will come and explain it to me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are 100% correct. There is no "sacrificing to the Buddha" in the Buddhist faith (the Buddha is not a 'god' to sacrifice anything to or for). This kind of thinking is (human conditioned) nonsense - born out of (a widespread and understandable) ignorance to the teachings of the Buddha.

If someones does not want to eat beef, they do it because they feel sympathy and compassion to others in the world.

Most people feel sympathy for dogs, so they do not kill and/or eat them, but they feel very little sympathy and loving kindness to cattle and pigs. Other feel sympathy for all of these mammals and not not kill nor eat them.

Hence, not eating beef is based on understanding, compassion and sympathy - not "a sacrifice" (which is a dominate theme in many religions like Christianity and Islam.)

Edited September 1, 2005 by Mr. Farang

[fxm88]

Gambling is based on luck, and luck can be influenced by... the Lord Buddha of course! If you don't gamble then you can't win and if you can't win then how can the Buddha show that he favors you? Similar to the old (though new compared to Buddhism) American Puritan/Calvinist beliefs that being successful, acquiring wealth, or whatever is proof of God's favor. In America it helped encourage a virtuous spiral of people working harder and harder, equipping their children with the tools/education they needed to become successful, etc.

Many religions/sects have similar beliefs although some have opposite beliefs e.g. Mother Theresa stating "I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people."

What, if anything, should people in Thailand and other places, where many people live such pitiful existences and mortgage their children's futures, infer about Buddha's/God's/whoever's favor?

[jrincon17]

Seeing as Buddhism is, in a sense, a practice of self-discipline, is gambling thought of to be wrong according to Buddhism?  If so, why is it that so many devout Thai buddhists gamble?  I see many of them pray, go to the temple, have all sorts of shrines & statues around dedicated to Buddhism yet continue to gamble.  If one is going to practice a particular way of thought, in this case Buddhism, one should try to abide by all the teachings and not just the ones that are convenient right?  Can someone with more knowledge about Buddhism explain this to me please?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've never seen so many "Religeous" people sin so much , might be my lack of knowledge of Buddhism though .

[phibunmike]

Seeing as Buddhism is, in a sense, a practice of self-discipline, is gambling thought of to be wrong according to Buddhism?  If so, why is it that so many devout Thai buddhists gamble?  I see many of them pray, go to the temple, have all sorts of shrines & statues around dedicated to Buddhism yet continue to gamble.  If one is going to practice a particular way of thought, in this case Buddhism, one should try to abide by all the teachings and not just the ones that are convenient right?  Can someone with more knowledge about Buddhism explain this to me please?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've never seen so many "Religeous" people sin so much , might be my lack of knowledge of Buddhism though .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok, I am going to go out on a limb here with my very limited understanding of Buddhism - and with TRIPxCORE's warning to us new folk ringing in my ears

The way I see it, a major difference between western religions and Buddhist teaching is that western religions have RULES - Buddhism has concepts of positive and negative. Buddhism does not demand, or even expect, everyone to do right all the time. But when you do good, you add to your "reservoir", when you do bad, you drain it. As long as you keep your reservoir topped up you are doing ok.

Another point is that Buddhism is rarely pure, but has been grafted on to indigenous belief systems that were in place before Buddhism arrived - in much the same way that Christianity hi-jacked (or "modified" might be a less confrontational word) the pagan festivals now called Christmas and Easter.

[chico]

Seeing as Buddhism is, in a sense, a practice of self-discipline, is gambling thought of to be wrong according to Buddhism?  If so, why is it that so many devout Thai buddhists gamble?  I see many of them pray, go to the temple, have all sorts of shrines & statues around dedicated to Buddhism yet continue to gamble.  If one is going to practice a particular way of thought, in this case Buddhism, one should try to abide by all the teachings and not just the ones that are convenient right?  Can someone with more knowledge about Buddhism explain this to me please?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm certainly no expert on buddhism, for this I would have to understand the language spoken in prayers, (which seems to be some old india dialect),

but what puzzles me, is why people think, that buddhism is against gambling?

has nobody ever experienced people going to ask their buddha (monk) about the winning lottery number, and the monks giving them numberrs, which amazingly often really make winners?

one other point : gambling is illegal in Thailand, there is only one exception allowed by law : when people die, all who go there, are allowed to gamble all evenings, before the burial/cremation, including the time, when the monks come to do their singing!

can't be so wrong with buddhism??!

(and I'm not talking about monks taking part in the gambling, as they can fail like all other people and some of them do sometimes on other occasions, like sex, alcohol...)

[TRIPxCORE]

I'm certainly no expert on buddhism, for this I would have to understand the language spoken in prayers, (which seems to be some old india dialect),

but what puzzles me, is why people think, that buddhism is against gambling?

Now I tried to be clear about this in two different posts and I guess I wasn't. In my 2nd post in which I tried to clarify my question, I never stated that I definitely thought Buddhism was against gambling. To refresh our memories, let me bring back this tiny excerpt of what I said:

" My question, for the Buddhist experts, is gambling considered bad for Buddhists? If it is, why does this person who follows everything as strictly as possible let this slide without worry?"

I asked if it was bad and then I continued to say that if it was, why would they still do it. Perhaps I wasn't clear. I am not claiming to know anything about Buddhism, quite the contrary in fact and this is why I proceeded to ask my question.

[chico]

I'm certainly no expert on buddhism, for this I would have to understand the language spoken in prayers, (which seems to be some old india dialect),

but what puzzles me, is why people think, that buddhism is against gambling?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Now I tried to be clear about this in two different posts and I guess I wasn't. In my 2nd post in which I tried to clarify my question, I never stated that I definitely thought Buddhism was against gambling. To refresh our memories, let me bring back this tiny excerpt of what I said:

" My question, for the Buddhist experts, is gambling considered bad for Buddhists? If it is, why does this person who follows everything as strictly as possible let this slide without worry?"

I asked if it was bad and then I continued to say that if it was, why would they still do it. Perhaps I wasn't clear. I am not claiming to know anything about Buddhism, quite the contrary in fact and this is why I proceeded to ask my question.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ok, the "rules" of buddhism, as far as I have got them confirmed :

there are 5 of them:

don't kill

don't steel

don't lie

don't "butterfly"

don't drink lao (alcohol?) and don't gamble

if you follow all these rules, you can be a monk (buddha)

people know these rules, and they generally try to live by them, but most don't intent to be a monk, and therefore slip by some of them some times

smoking f.e. is not directly mentioned, but should not be done by monks either, as well as they have rules as to when and what to et:

one group of monks can eat twice a day,

another group only once, before 11.00am, after that, only drinking is allowed,

but they can eat fruits all day! = no food??!

as I said before, I would like to be able to understand the language, they are praying (and singing), but this seems to be ancient dialect (language) from india, which they leanr and use, as in christianism they use latin, even the pope for speeches sometimes.

[meadish_sweetball]

The language used for chanting is Pali, which as I understand it, always was a language intended for rituals, and not for everyday speech. More info at Pali (Wikipedia).

A monk is not the same thing as a Buddha. A monk is on his way to becoming a Buddha, having taken vows to follow more precepts (rules) than laypeople.

[chico]

The language used for chanting is Pali, which as I understand it, always was a language intended for rituals, and not for everyday speech. More info at Pali (Wikipedia).

thanks, that's a big help!

A monk is not the same thing as a Buddha. A monk is on his way to becoming a Buddha, having taken vows to follow more precepts (rules) than laypeople.

yes, I'm aware of that, was just referring to them in the common thai speaking, where every monk is called a buddha.

[Mr. Farang]

A monk is not the same thing as a Buddha. A monk is on his way to becoming a Buddha, having taken vows to follow more precepts (rules) than laypeople.

yes, I'm aware of that, was just referring to them in the common thai speaking, where every monk is called a buddha.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Incorrect. In everyday Thai speaking, Monks are *not* called Buddhas, they are called Monks.

Where did you ever hear such misinformation?

Edited September 6, 2005 by Mr. Farang

[meadish_sweetball]

I think chico may be referring to 'Thaiglish'.

There is certainly a distinction between 'monk' and 'Buddha' in the Thai language.

[camerata]

Here's a wonderful quote I came across last night that answers the OP's question of why some "devout" Thai Buddhists gamble.

When someone asked Ajahn Chah why there was so much crime in Thailand, a Buddhist country, he said "those aren't Buddhists doing those things, that isn't Buddhism doing those things; those are people doing those things. Buddha never taught anything like that."

[chico]

yes, I'm aware of that, was just referring to them in the common thai speaking, where every monk is called a buddha.

Incorrect. In everyday Thai speaking, Monks are *not* called Buddhas, they are called Monks.

Where did you ever hear such misinformation?

You are absolutely right, in "everyday Thai speaking", they are not called monks.

what I meant by "coommon thai speaking", is people in the rural areas, without too much education, mainly say 'buddha", when they mean monks.

to camerate : excellent quoet! who says it all!

[meadish_sweetball]

Here's a wonderful quote I came across last night that answers the OP's question of why some "devout" Thai Buddhists gamble.

When someone asked Ajahn Chah why there was so much crime in Thailand, a Buddhist country, he said "those aren't Buddhists doing those things, that isn't Buddhism doing those things; those are people doing those things. Buddha never taught anything like that."

Buddhism does not rob people; people rob people.

[chico]

Here's a wonderful quote I came across last night that answers the OP's question of why some "devout" Thai Buddhists gamble.

When someone asked Ajahn Chah why there was so much crime in Thailand, a Buddhist country, he said "those aren't Buddhists doing those things, that isn't Buddhism doing those things; those are people doing those things. Buddha never taught anything like that."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Buddhism does not rob people; people rob people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

no religion never does anything wrong, it's always people only who are the wrongdoers, unforunately sometimes people do it in the name of religion, as f.e. "burning of witches" in europes dark middle age

[mijan246]

Seeing as Buddhism is, in a sense, a practice of self-discipline, is gambling thought of to be wrong according to Buddhism?  If so, why is it that so many devout Thai buddhists gamble?  I see many of them pray, go to the temple, have all sorts of shrines & statues around dedicated to Buddhism yet continue to gamble.  If one is going to practice a particular way of thought, in this case Buddhism, one should try to abide by all the teachings and not just the ones that are convenient right?  Can someone with more knowledge about Buddhism explain this to me please?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

TRIPxCORE I believe your OP above addresses a very pertinent point and although both "meadish_sweetball" & "camerata" have provided some very very good input - I dont feel the core of your initial post has been fully answered ( I am not sure if it is possible to answer it fully) but I will be very interested to follow this post to see if any further insight can be offered.

Apologies I also meant to include "sabaijai" in the very very good input company.

Edited September 10, 2005 by mijan246

[Mr. Farang]

Here's a wonderful quote I came across last night that answers the OP's question of why some "devout" Thai Buddhists gamble.

When someone asked Ajahn Chah why there was so much crime in Thailand, a Buddhist country, he said "those aren't Buddhists doing those things, that isn't Buddhism doing those things; those are people doing those things. Buddha never taught anything like that."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, interesting how people find it easier to judge others than to learn and practice (and see) for themselves.

I understand why people ask such questions, such as the original post, because the person asking the question does not understand the teachings of the Buddha, so they judge the teachings of the Buddha based on people. born in a "Buddhist-centric nation" who do not follow the teachings.

Every nation, land, creed, religion, or code has such a condition. This situation is a human condition, not the condition of Thailand, Buddhism, or anything related.... it exists everywhere in the world - because it is a "worldly condition" of mankind.

[PatientObserver]

WOW! A lot of people smarter than me have weighed in. Here's my half-ass response...

I'm not an expert, and I'm not Buddha, and I haven't read all responses, but, "People like to Gamble..." seems to be a reasonable response... to the question, as well as the deeper question of "Why Do People Gamble On Buddha?" Or "Why Do People Gamble On Football?"

Seems to me (a non-Buddhist observer) that Buddhism is cognizant of human nature (and human weakness) and allows for a wide variety of behaviors, gambling included... Life is Choice...

[nokia]

Reviving an old topic. i think the answer is Greed & Desire for more material wealth= power to acquire material things to satisfy Unlimited desires...

Humans are greedy by nature, they just want More & More. It's never enough.

If a child is crazy about jelly beans & has 10 jelly beans, he/she would like to have 100. Then when he has 100, maybe 1000, 10000, until the whole room is filled with jelly beans. The same goes for an adult with $$$. When does it stop? RIP...

--

Gambling in LOS

by: Bill Grimson

If prostitution is the world’s oldest profession, then gambling must be its oldest obsession. In Thailand gambling is illegal but this ban is a classic example of no meaning yes. Go to many places around the country and it doesn’t take long to hear by word of mouth or innuendo that a lot of card games and other games of chance are taking place.

This probably applies more to Chinese/Thais. As has been well documented the Chinese have an almost genetic disposition to gambling. Across the river from Chinatown in Bangkok where my sister-in-law and her family lives, card games abound. It has often been pointed out to me that a lot of the men loitering around the narrow sois are in reality lookouts in case the police turn up.

The only sanctioned gambling in Thailand is the state lottery. Go anywhere in Thailand and you will be confronted in markets and streets by lottery ticket salesman and women. Many of these people have a physical disability and the commissions from ticket sales are their only source of income. Quite often they will congregate at places such as the Erewan Shrine, which are considered to be lucky.

In years past the most interesting thing about the State lottery was its illegal sibling. Until recently when the Government wised up and made the official lottery more attractive with better prizes, a considerable number of Thais would wager their money on the illegal version of the lottery. The results were based on the legal bi-monthly draw. With perceived better odds and prizes, the illegal lottery was probably as large or even larger than the official version. There existed a spider’s web of middlemen taking the bets and probably a cabal of Mr. Bigs or possibly even a Mr. Big. I often visualized that there could have been a master criminal running the whole show – at times lighting up a Cuban with a thousand baht note (I probably watch to much television)

But it was the tension-laden atmosphere leading up to the lottery draw that was most noteworthy. Everybody seemed to be involved – Farmers, Teachers, housewives, even Buddhist Monks – many wagering more money than they could afford. In rural areas before every man, women and child possessed a mobile phone; people would queue up at village shops to use the phone. They would call friends and family around the country to confer about lucky numbers. Sometimes these calls would be made to Monks renowned for picking propitious numbers.

The tension comes to a head on the day the lottery draw is televised. A hush seems to fall across the country. Thais are a pretty tolerant lot when it comes to noise and high spirits, but anybody making a noise during the draw is quickly told to zip their mouth. The only time I have seen people looking at a television with a rapt expression like this was when Neil Armstrong landed on the moon. The televised lottery draw to is also different to other countries.

The official draw in Thailand in contrast is all seriousness. The long series of draws that seem to take an excruciating long time to complete take place in a large room filled with uniformed officials (At first glance it looks like a war room at the Pentagon).In the room is a long row of clear plastic tumblers filled with numbered balls with each tumbler overseen by a po-faced female official yet again in uniform. Each official manually rotates their tumbler and then reaches into the tumbler to pull out and then hold up a numbered ball for all and sundry to see. The whole point of the exercise and the vast number of officials is to make everything appear transparent and above board. However the more earnest the process has become, the more it seems like there is a level of fiddling going on.

----

To end suffering, one must cut off greed and ignorance. The extinction of desire is Nirvana.

[thaibebop]

I am not in expert. I am not as well read as many of the other members here. So, Maybe someone will disagree with me here, but I have found that when you ask a question like Trip is asking(is this wrong in according to Buddhism) I felt that what was said by Buddha, was you can do whatever you want just know that there are consequences. If you wish to avoid said consequences, don't do it, or be willing to pay the price.

It's because of this I don't view Buddhism as a weak philosophy/religion. For unlike Christainity there is no salvation, what is done is done, so you had best think about what you are doing before you do it.