Two Yellow-Shirt Leaders Arrested For Seizure Of Two Bangkok Airports

[Emptyset]

The PAD was under attack for a full two years prior to either of your references.

http://www.nationmul...+rally&page=106

The poster I responded to was referring to grenade attacks on the PAD in 2008, which he says is why they became armed & militant and were forced into taking the airport.

[Emptyset]

No need to re-hash this 2 year old incident for the umpteenth time as nearly all people here know what happened then despite spin attempts years later through confirmed Red slanted people like Nostitz, but suffice to say, yellows and Reds are a different situation in that we were talking about a same day occurrence, not the weeks and weeks the Reds had been warned.

Appropriately, criminal charges have been filed against the appropriate people and we can wait for the trial of Somchai and Chavalit et al to re-hash it again.

Haven't read the comments on that NM thread for a while, but I think even a die hard PAD supporter started to argue with Nick and eventually conceded he was right. Nick might be biased towards red in political opinion but when it comes to documenting the facts I've no reason to believe he'd lie. I'd say he's one of the most trustworthy reporters around when it comes to a strict detailing of events. Other people dispute whether PAD were warned or not.

Well, I'm going to take the anti-red line people on here propagate and turn it on the yellows "Som nam na, I say. They knew they shouldn't be there. And when it was clear the leaders knew the police were using deadly weapons they did nothing to call them back! No, in fact it's the leaders fault, they'd been incited these people for weeks and brainwashing them with propaganda. It's obvious to anyone the leaders wanted their own protesters killed so they could use it against the government! Even the Wikileaks said so! And yet some on here still support the PAD terrorists and believe that Somchai's actions should be investigated! Of course they shouldn't. Somchai deserves a medal for even trying to negotiate with terrorists who wouldn't back down!"

Not saying I agree with all or most of that, but I'm lazy, so what the hell...

[Buchholz]

No need to re-hash this 2 year old incident for the umpteenth time as nearly all people here know what happened then despite spin attempts years later through confirmed Red slanted people like Nostitz, but suffice to say, yellows and Reds are a different situation in that we were talking about a same day occurrence, not the weeks and weeks the Reds had been warned.

Appropriately, criminal charges have been filed against the appropriate people and we can wait for the trial of Somchai and Chavalit et al to re-hash it again.

Haven't read the comments on that NM thread for a while, but I think even a die hard PAD supporter started to argue with Nick and eventually conceded he was right. Nick might be biased towards red in political opinion but when it comes to documenting the facts I've no reason to believe he'd lie. I'd say he's one of the most trustworthy reporters around when it comes to a strict detailing of events. Other people dispute whether PAD were warned or not.

Well, I'm going to take the anti-red line people on here propagate and turn it on the yellows "Som nam na, I say. They knew they shouldn't be there. And when it was clear the leaders knew the police were using deadly weapons they did nothing to call them back! No, in fact it's the leaders fault, they'd been incited these people for weeks and brainwashing them with propaganda. It's obvious to anyone the leaders wanted their own protesters killed so they could use it against the government! Even the Wikileaks said so! And yet some on here still support the PAD terrorists and believe that Somchai's actions should be investigated! Of course they shouldn't. Somchai deserves a medal for even trying to negotiate with terrorists who wouldn't back down!"

Not saying I agree with all or most of that, but I'm lazy, so what the hell...

Nostitz is no reporter, he's a blogger and a photographer.

If you wish to discuss New Mandala forum posts, you should go to the New Mandala forum and post there.

More than PAD believed Somchai's et al actions should be investigated. That's why they had charges filed against them by NCCC... charges which, btw, are older than the airport charges this thread is about, and which we are all still waiting for action on.

.

Edited January 20, 2011 by Buchholz

[Buchholz]

* nevermind. The other issue has been hashed over too many times.

Edited January 20, 2011 by Buchholz

[hanuman1]

No need to re-hash this 2 year old incident for the umpteenth time as nearly all people here know what happened then despite spin attempts years later through confirmed Red slanted people like Nostitz, but suffice to say, yellows and Reds are a different situation in that we were talking about a same day occurrence, not the weeks and weeks the Reds had been warned.

Appropriately, criminal charges have been filed against the appropriate people and we can wait for the trial of Somchai and Chavalit et al to re-hash it again.

Haven't read the comments on that NM thread for a while, but I think even a die hard PAD supporter started to argue with Nick and eventually conceded he was right. Nick might be biased towards red in political opinion but when it comes to documenting the facts I've no reason to believe he'd lie. I'd say he's one of the most trustworthy reporters around when it comes to a strict detailing of events. Other people dispute whether PAD were warned or not.

Well, I'm going to take the anti-red line people on here propagate and turn it on the yellows "Som nam na, I say. They knew they shouldn't be there. And when it was clear the leaders knew the police were using deadly weapons they did nothing to call them back! No, in fact it's the leaders fault, they'd been incited these people for weeks and brainwashing them with propaganda. It's obvious to anyone the leaders wanted their own protesters killed so they could use it against the government! Even the Wikileaks said so! And yet some on here still support the PAD terrorists and believe that Somchai's actions should be investigated! Of course they shouldn't. Somchai deserves a medal for even trying to negotiate with terrorists who wouldn't back down!"

Not saying I agree with all or most of that, but I'm lazy, so what the hell...

Bravo!!! Thanks for your continued efforts at trying to achieve a balanced view of the things discussed on these boards. More power to your elbow. Please keep posting!

[Emptyset]

Nostitz is no reporter, he's a blogger and a photographer.

His job title isn't reporter, but he does, nevertheless, report. As in the post I linked, I'd say that was reporting, more-so than blogging or photography.

If you wish to discuss New Mandala forum posts, you should go to the New Mandala forum and post there.

More than PAD believed Somchai's et al actions should be investigated. That's why they had charges filed against them by NCCC... charges which, btw, are older than the airport charges this thread is about, and which we are all still waiting for action on.

I don't wish to discuss the post other than pointing out that even PAD supporters say Nick's report was fair, or at least factually correct, whilst you dismiss him as a biased red who's trying to spin against PAD, etc.

Plenty of non-reds also think PM Abhisit and the military's actions are worth investigation, yet many here seem dead against the idea in general. They either argue that the army didn't really kill anyone, or that, even though they did kill people, it was all justified. How can we say it's justified if we don't know the full details of each particular incident? There's enough evidence to suggest that people were killed who posed no threat to anyone.

I've nothing against Somchai being tried, although I don't see why he should be. But if you think he should be tried, then I just can't see how you could argue Abhisit shouldn't also be investigated and possibly put on trial. I actually don't see why he should be put on trial, as he had a right to clear the area, and cannot be responsible for the security force's possible negligence or irresponsible actions, same argument I'd make for Somchai.

[rubl]

Secondly if Thaksin funded the reds debacle, who funded the near six month yellow shirt protests.

This article suggests a few possibilities: http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/thailand/081209/who-bankrolled-thailands-revolution

Incidentally, in a Jonathan Head (BBC) article about PAD's backers, he says "In fact, PAD organisers told the BBC they had carefully planned the seizure of the airport weeks before." I don't know why people on this board keep repeating the nonsense about the airport invasion being an "accident". What if the UDD leaders claimed the hospital invasion was an accident? Would that be accepted? Of course not.

Now don't be hasty, young master Emptyset.

The Jonathan Head article can still be found here

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7762806.stm

Interesting is that apart from the quote 'PAD planned seizure' in this article (and in copies available on other websites) I cannot find any further information on this. Sorry to say, but that means we can only speculate on this, unless you have more details.

As for the hospital invasion it was indeed an 'accident', we incorrectly believed army personel was hiding there. That's why we had to check, storming the hospital under loud noise, armed with bamboo sticks and scaring the hell out of sick people and hospital staff. Even our esteemed Dr. weng "acknowledged some red shirts have a 'cowboy attitude' that presents an image problem for the movement, which is already struggling to get support from middle-class Bangkok." Very sorry, but clearly just as bad as occupying an airport peacefully.

Read more here

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/01/world/asia/01thai.html

[jayboy]

No need to re-hash this 2 year old incident for the umpteenth time as nearly all people here know what happened then despite spin attempts years later through confirmed Red slanted people like Nostitz, but suffice to say, yellows and Reds are a different situation in that we were talking about a same day occurrence, not the weeks and weeks the Reds had been warned.

Appropriately, criminal charges have been filed against the appropriate people and we can wait for the trial of Somchai and Chavalit et al to re-hash it again.

Haven't read the comments on that NM thread for a while, but I think even a die hard PAD supporter started to argue with Nick and eventually conceded he was right. Nick might be biased towards red in political opinion but when it comes to documenting the facts I've no reason to believe he'd lie. I'd say he's one of the most trustworthy reporters around when it comes to a strict detailing of events. Other people dispute whether PAD were warned or not.

Well, I'm going to take the anti-red line people on here propagate and turn it on the yellows "Som nam na, I say. They knew they shouldn't be there. And when it was clear the leaders knew the police were using deadly weapons they did nothing to call them back! No, in fact it's the leaders fault, they'd been incited these people for weeks and brainwashing them with propaganda. It's obvious to anyone the leaders wanted their own protesters killed so they could use it against the government! Even the Wikileaks said so! And yet some on here still support the PAD terrorists and believe that Somchai's actions should be investigated! Of course they shouldn't. Somchai deserves a medal for even trying to negotiate with terrorists who wouldn't back down!"

Not saying I agree with all or most of that, but I'm lazy, so what the hell...

Nostitz is no reporter, he's a blogger and a photographer.

If you wish to discuss New Mandala forum posts, you should go to the New Mandala forum and post there.

More than PAD believed Somchai's et al actions should be investigated. That's why they had charges filed against them by NCCC... charges which, btw, are older than the airport charges this thread is about, and which we are all still waiting for action on.

.

Unfortunately despite your best efforts you can't drown out reasonable discussion of issues.It's perfectly reasonable that topics debated on New Mandala should also be debated here, obviously in the context of Thai Visa and conforming to forum rules.

[Buchholz]

Nostitz is no reporter, he's a blogger and a photographer.

His job title isn't reporter, but he does, nevertheless, report. As in the post I linked, I'd say that was reporting, more-so than blogging or photography.

Reporter is an occupation. Please let us know when he gets a byline as a reporter for a recognized news agency.

If you wish to discuss New Mandala forum posts, you should go to the New Mandala forum and post there.

More than PAD believed Somchai's et al actions should be investigated. That's why they had charges filed against them by NCCC... charges which, btw, are older than the airport charges this thread is about, and which we are all still waiting for action on.

I don't wish to discuss the post other than pointing out that even PAD supporters say Nick's report was fair, or at least factually correct, whilst you dismiss him as a biased red who's trying to spin against PAD, etc.

Plenty of non-reds also think PM Abhisit and the military's actions are worth investigation, yet many here seem dead against the idea in general. They either argue that the army didn't really kill anyone, or that, even though they did kill people, it was all justified. How can we say it's justified if we don't know the full details of each particular incident? There's enough evidence to suggest that people were killed who posed no threat to anyone.

I've nothing against Somchai being tried, although I don't see why he should be. But if you think he should be tried, then I just can't see how you could argue Abhisit shouldn't also be investigated and possibly put on trial. I actually don't see why he should be put on trial, as he had a right to clear the area, and cannot be responsible for the security force's possible negligence or irresponsible actions, same argument I'd make for Somchai.

Sounds like you are discussing a New Mandala forum post. To properly document what you say is said over there would require link or a direct quote, which would then elicit a reply back on what was said on the New Mandala forum, and then possibly a reply back to that reply, aka "discussion". I'd just rather just skip entirely what is said on a New Mandala forum post. If I wanted to discuss what was said there, I'd post over there on that other forum.

Let us know when the NCCC charges Abhisit with malfeasance the same they did with Somchai and Chavalit. The other defendant in their case, the National Police Chief, lost his job over his involvement.

It's not "I" that thinks Somchai should be tried. It's the NCCC that charged him. If the NCCC wishes to charge Abhisit, then that's up to them. If you think the NCCC erred in their decision to charge Somchai and others, then I would suggest you contact them and air your concerns.

361 Nonthaburi Rd.(Sanambinnam Rd.)

Thasaai District, Amphur Muang, Nonthaburi 11000 , Thailand

Tel (66) 2 528 4800-4849

[Buchholz]

No need to re-hash this 2 year old incident for the umpteenth time as nearly all people here know what happened then despite spin attempts years later through confirmed Red slanted people like Nostitz, but suffice to say, yellows and Reds are a different situation in that we were talking about a same day occurrence, not the weeks and weeks the Reds had been warned.

Appropriately, criminal charges have been filed against the appropriate people and we can wait for the trial of Somchai and Chavalit et al to re-hash it again.

Haven't read the comments on that NM thread for a while, but I think even a die hard PAD supporter started to argue with Nick and eventually conceded he was right. Nick might be biased towards red in political opinion but when it comes to documenting the facts I've no reason to believe he'd lie. I'd say he's one of the most trustworthy reporters around when it comes to a strict detailing of events. Other people dispute whether PAD were warned or not.

Well, I'm going to take the anti-red line people on here propagate and turn it on the yellows "Som nam na, I say. They knew they shouldn't be there. And when it was clear the leaders knew the police were using deadly weapons they did nothing to call them back! No, in fact it's the leaders fault, they'd been incited these people for weeks and brainwashing them with propaganda. It's obvious to anyone the leaders wanted their own protesters killed so they could use it against the government! Even the Wikileaks said so! And yet some on here still support the PAD terrorists and believe that Somchai's actions should be investigated! Of course they shouldn't. Somchai deserves a medal for even trying to negotiate with terrorists who wouldn't back down!"

Not saying I agree with all or most of that, but I'm lazy, so what the hell...

Nostitz is no reporter, he's a blogger and a photographer.

If you wish to discuss New Mandala forum posts, you should go to the New Mandala forum and post there.

More than PAD believed Somchai's et al actions should be investigated. That's why they had charges filed against them by NCCC... charges which, btw, are older than the airport charges this thread is about, and which we are all still waiting for action on.

Unfortunately despite your best efforts you can't drown out reasonable discussion of issues.It's perfectly reasonable that topics debated on New Mandala should also be debated here, obviously in the context of Thai Visa and conforming to forum rules.

Easy there, chief. No one is drowning out reasonable discussion. I'm sure the Thaivisa forum does debate similar topics as the New Mandala forum. I've seen the same topics discussed on a variety of forums on Thailand, but that's not emptyset's point. He wants to quote a point that was said over there by a poster on that forum and post it over here on this forum. That's completely different then the forums discussing similar topics.

.

Edited January 20, 2011 by Buchholz

[jayboy]

Sounds like you are discussing a New Mandala forum post. To properly document what you say is said over there would require link or a direct quote, which would then elicit a reply back on what was said on the New Mandala forum, and then possibly a reply back to that reply, aka "discussion". I'd just rather just skip entirely what is said on a New Mandala forum post. If I wanted to discuss what was said there, I'd post over there on that other forum.

Let us know when the NCCC charges Abhisit with malfeasance the same they did with Somchai and Chavalit. The other defendant in their case, the National Police Chief, lost his job over his involvement.

It's not "I" that thinks Somchai should be tried. It's the NCCC that charged him. If the NCCC wishes to charge Abhisit, then that's up to them. If you think the NCCC erred in their decision to charge Somchai and others, then I would suggest you contact them and air your concerns.

361 Nonthaburi Rd.(Sanambinnam Rd.)

Thasaai District, Amphur Muang, Nonthaburi 11000 , Thailand

Tel (66) 2 528 4800-4849

Nobody is suggesting Thai Visa discussions shouldn't be self contained without constant reference to other forums.Nevertheless since the subject matter (political developments in Thailand) is often the same there's no doubt that members will be interested in NM topics, and hopefully vice versa.The impression you give is a deep seated dislike of discussion on topics which have also been aired over at NM.That's not very healthy and frankly intellectually impoverished.If you don't like debate go somewhere else.

And by the way I should avoid the hectoring and bullying tone if I was you.It got you into trouble before and probably will again.

Edited January 20, 2011 by jayboy

[Buchholz]

Sounds like you are discussing a New Mandala forum post. To properly document what you say is said over there would require link or a direct quote, which would then elicit a reply back on what was said on the New Mandala forum, and then possibly a reply back to that reply, aka "discussion". I'd just rather just skip entirely what is said on a New Mandala forum post. If I wanted to discuss what was said there, I'd post over there on that other forum.

Let us know when the NCCC charges Abhisit with malfeasance the same they did with Somchai and Chavalit. The other defendant in their case, the National Police Chief, lost his job over his involvement.

It's not "I" that thinks Somchai should be tried. It's the NCCC that charged him. If the NCCC wishes to charge Abhisit, then that's up to them. If you think the NCCC erred in their decision to charge Somchai and others, then I would suggest you contact them and air your concerns.

361 Nonthaburi Rd.(Sanambinnam Rd.)

Thasaai District, Amphur Muang, Nonthaburi 11000 , Thailand

Tel (66) 2 528 4800-4849

Nobody is suggesting Thai Visa discussions shouldn't be self contained without constant reference to other forums.Nevertheless since the subject matter (political developments in Thailand) is often the same there's no doubt that members will be interested in NM topics, and hopefully vice versa.The impression you give is a deep seated dislike of discussion on topics which have also been aired over at NM.That's not very healthy and frankly intellectually impoverished.If you don't like debate go somewhere else.

And by the way I should avoid the hectoring and bullying tone if I was you.It got you into trouble before and probably will again.

I have no problem discussing topics in this forum that are also discussed in other forums. A lot of my posts on this forum are on similar topics that are discussed on that other forum. My only dissent is quoting what posters say over there in replies to a topic and putting them on this forum. If you wish to discuss topics over there, post over there. I would suggest that if we wish to start quoting other forum's posters, that should be cleared first via a PM through moderators on this forum... as it's something that's not been done before AFAIK.

Whatever on Earth you are talking about in regards to a hectoring or bullying tone in the quoted post you are replying to, I have no idea. I do note, however, that you're the last one on this forum to be lecturing anyone on hectoring or bullying.

Edited January 20, 2011 by Buchholz

[animatic]

[There was a clear video of a policeman in beret and sun glasses drawing down and firing,

then seeing he was on camera trying to stop the camera man. And after they saw the damage caused by the too powerful teargas grenades they continued to use them aimed directly at individuals and groups, not as smoke sources, but as actual weapons of destruction.

Where is the video? How many of the injuries suffered by PAD protestors were gunshot wounds? At what point did the police realise they'd been given crappy, dangerous tear gas? Please show me that point in time.

Where were you went it was on Thaivisa no less than a dozen times?

And it is likely still linked. It was on Youtube also.

[animatic]

I love the obsessive attempts to defend the indefensible.

and rewrite history with a red friendly tint.

Give it up even PTP realizes that battle is lost.

[Emptyset]

It's not "I" that thinks Somchai should be tried. It's the NCCC that charged him. If the NCCC wishes to charge Abhisit, then that's up to them. If you think the NCCC erred in their decision to charge Somchai and others, then I would suggest you contact them and air your concerns.

I'd prefer to quote Prof. Thongchai Winichakul, who I absolutely agreed with at the time and still do:

"I just read Prachatai re: arrest of a red shirt guy for threatening a Democrat MP at the Parliament House a few days ago, and re: the National HR Comm’s report charging the police, Somchai (ex-PM) and many more for killings people at the Oct 7 incident [bP: See more at end]. Meanwhile the PAD get impunity for their crimes and wrongdoings. THIS IS AN URGENT PLEA, A VERY SERIOUS CONCERN. The lack of trust in a society due to the lack of a fair and just channel for conflict resolution could lead to an unimaginable social disaster. The current political crisis and the crisis in the south have one thing in common: the failure of the rule of law mainly due to unfairness and outrageous partiality in enforcing the law and in the justice system (from police all the ways up to the court). This failure leads to the collapse of trust in the political and justice system. Without the trust in the system, there will be no acceptable conflict resolution. Violence becomes the only option. ALL mechanism of law and justice system are digging a grave for Thai society. They do everything to win at the expense of the entire legal and justice systems. The “rule of law” from them is the abuse of law for their own benefits. Their victory over Thaksin is so costly — destroying trust in the rule of law and in the justice system. The media, and the activists on human rights and liberty, and the NHRC are part of this failure too. Had they done their job with strong principles and professionally, ESPECIALLY UPHOLDING THE PRINCIPLE OF IMPARTIALITY, the legal and justice systems may not have become so corrupt, so biased, so unfair, as they currently are. Trust in the society may not have depleted as seriously as it currently is. The failure of media and HR community to uphold IMPARTIALITY is so costly in this conflict. They must be responsible for the crisis too. Sadly, up to now, they seem not understand how much they could have made things better, and how serious their mistakes actually are. Obviously, they do not understand and they learn nothing from the crisis in the south. They help creating a similar condition of distrust and potential violence, but on a larger scale. The call for the rule of law is necessary. But it needs the fair and just rule of law. As the justice system is abused, becoming outrageously unfair, biased, and untrustworthy, the only door for peaceful conflict resolution is being shut down. We cannot avoid conflicts. But it is a dangerous situation if serious conflicts find no trustworthy and fair system to resolve. A call for non-violence becomes a farce and ridiculous if there is no fair and just channel to solve the conflicts. Without the fair and just “means”, regardless of an ideological end one may want, there can be no peace."

http://asiancorrespondent.com/19741/thongchai-winichakul-plea-for-an-end-to-impunity/

[Emptyset]

The Jonathan Head article can still be found here

http://news.bbc.co.u...fic/7762806.stm

Interesting is that apart from the quote 'PAD planned seizure' in this article (and in copies available on other websites) I cannot find any further information on this. Sorry to say, but that means we can only speculate on this, unless you have more details.

Obviously they said this to Jonathan Head off the record. Or do you think he made it up? This sort of statement makes me literally throw my arms up in despair! From what I've read so far, most people on this board believe every scrap of smut about red shirts when it's written by the likes of Tulsathit and Thanong Khanthong, but dismiss Jonathan Head's claims as "speculation". Sorry, but I know which I trust to be more reliable... I really don't think he'd write it if PAD leaders hadn't told him in no uncertain terms they'd planned it.

As for the hospital invasion it was indeed an 'accident', we incorrectly believed army personel was hiding there. That's why we had to check, storming the hospital under loud noise, armed with bamboo sticks and scaring the hell out of sick people and hospital staff. Even our esteemed Dr. weng "acknowledged some red shirts have a 'cowboy attitude' that presents an image problem for the movement, which is already struggling to get support from middle-class Bangkok." Very sorry, but clearly just as bad as occupying an airport peacefully.

I don't think I implied any value judgement in my post, I certainly didn't say one was worse than the other. They were both wrong as far as I'm concerned. Let's try to look at each incident objectively as best we can, regardless of which side is responsible. Red shirts (and PAD for that matter) might have acted abhorrently in some circumstances, but might be misreported or treated harshly by an unsympathetic media in another. I'm not thinking of any instances of this in particular, but it surely has happened.

[Emptyset]

I love the obsessive attempts to defend the indefensible.

and rewrite history with a red friendly tint.

Give it up even PTP realizes that battle is lost.

Really? Because from what I've seen of your posts so far, you're no different to some of the absurd red shirt apologists I've ran into elsewhere, you just happen to defending the other side.

[rubl]

refer to original if necessary

Obviously they said this to Jonathan Head off the record. Or do you think he made it up? This sort of statement makes me literally throw my arms up in despair! From what I've read so far, most people on this board believe every scrap of smut about red shirts when it's written by the likes of Tulsathit and Thanong Khanthong, but dismiss Jonathan Head's claims as "speculation". Sorry, but I know which I trust to be more reliable... I really don't think he'd write it if PAD leaders hadn't told him in no uncertain terms they'd planned it.

Anything off the record without further details may be true, may be not. Since there is no proof, it's up to anyone's personal views and believes. Makes discussing this and using it to base further observations on a bit suspect, independent of what it's about!

I don't think I implied any value judgement in my post, I certainly didn't say one was worse than the other. They were both wrong as far as I'm concerned. Let's try to look at each incident objectively as best we can, regardless of which side is responsible. Red shirts (and PAD for that matter) might have acted abhorrently in some circumstances, but might be misreported or treated harshly by an unsympathetic media in another. I'm not thinking of any instances of this in particular, but it surely has happened.

The part on 'planned airport seizure' you used to say "I don't know why people on this board keep repeating the nonsense about the airport invasion being an "accident". What if the UDD leaders claimed the hospital invasion was an accident? Would that be accepted? Of course not."

For one as said above you use an undocumented remark to dismiss 'nonsense'. Secondly by comparing two events you suggest they fall in the same category and you then continue saying one is not an accident. So you only 'suggest' the other is also no accident.

IMHO

Edited January 20, 2011 by rubl

[animatic]

I love the obsessive attempts to defend the indefensible.

and rewrite history with a red friendly tint.

Give it up even PTP realizes that battle is lost.

Really? Because from what I've seen of your posts so far, you're no different to some of the absurd red shirt apologists I've ran into elsewhere, you just happen to defending the other side.

More defending a common sense middle ground, than either side red or yellow. Anti-BS. commentary.

If you are hated by both extremes then you are likely on the right track.

I just find several of the yellows actions were a direct side affect of red provocations and aggression.

And not clearly pre-planned in isolation as aggressions and as the reason for doing them.

Some how I don't see you recognizing those not so fine points, they don't fit into your philosophy.

[animatic]

b ) The 'Red friends', 'predicted by Sae Dang in advance',

started lobbing deadly grenades at them at night.

After these acts of aggression hardened the PAD, and they determined to go all out.

Without this gross miscalculations from team Thaksin, the PAD would have remained,

a very annoying, and loud, barking dog, instead they morphed into a hardened militant group.

But not a semi military group trying to cause deaths and destruction.

They'd already raided NBT before and killed one red shirt (well they weren't red shirts back then, but when the pro-PPP group confronted them) before either of these two things you mention, so let's not pretend they weren't prepared to be "militant" before that. PAD guards had grenades too... http://www.nationmul...cs_30088069.php

The PAD was under attack for a full two years prior to either of your references.

http://www.nationmul...+rally&page=106

Precisely. Any group gets more militant when violence is used continuously against them.

[animatic]

I see this thread has quickly turned in to a yellow propaganda thread where the resident forum yellows try to rewrite history and make people believe the yellows did no wrong.

they seem to forget the deaths and injuries caused BY the yellows, they forget the financial implications caused by the yellows, they forget that the light handed way they were treated means they are still causing problems now, such as venturing over the border. Well now it seems the government do not need them anymore, they served their purpose, now they are being rounded up at last, and their get out of jail free cards seems to have been revoked, and about bloody time too, their arrogance will mean they will continue to commit offences though, it just remains to be seen what more damage they will cause.

However one plus point is now that this government does not need them, they may turn agaisnt this lame duck and get rid of them and actually do Thailand a favour for a change.

No one has said the yellows did no wrong.

No one forgets this stuff you list.

Try and remember, like the reds, the yellows had several factions,

the TPN is one of the hardercore ones and split from PAD because of that.

Some yellow factions reported to the police their trials are in the line to court.

Some didn't and have warrants out for them. Are you implying Thai police efficiency is high?

The Reds in the last 4 years ALSO got treated lightly, out on bail too, and doing the same old <deleted>, but more and more aggressively. And we saw the repercussions of that last spring. Their leaders are now paying the price in sequestration for their arrogance and miscalculation. They clearly went way farther beyond acceptable, and most Thais noted that with contempt.

Of course you must call the 'bringing facts back into play' as 'attempts at re-writing history', the 'lie told often enough' still can't become truth for the masses, unless the truth is slapped down. Propaganda only works in a dark, musty, monophonic, monochromatic world, the light of day shows it for it's worthlessness. Oh, rage against that glaring sun.

So slap away, it's your only course against the truth. But realize it diminishes your voice, when you have a real truth to speak of.

Edited January 20, 2011 by animatic

[animatic]

Noting the Johnathan Head article.

No doubt there were contingency plans for most things PAD did, since there were many military figures, retired of otherwise, in their ranks. The PAD, and their strongest, did appear to have the ability to think ahead. I can't say as much for all their factions and their opposition. Flying by the seat of their emotional pants and/or expanding bank balances is more like it.

My point is having a potential plan and being instigated to use it are different dynamics. I have personal plans to do things I can't image are likely to be put into action, doesn't mean I don't have the basic plan laid out. As I read Head's comments on PAD's 'off the record' and unattributed comments, they sound like contingency plans that were finally needed and put into play.

Not defending their actions, just observing and commenting.

Edited January 20, 2011 by animatic

[rubl]

Looking at the yellow and/or red shirt topics I'm always reminded of the movie Casablanca with local police Captain Louis Renault saying "Round up the usual suspects." The list of members posting here reflects the same (me included)

Edited January 20, 2011 by rubl

[Siam Simon]

In the only video posted on this thread. Post # 25

Ah, ok, thanks. It's actually a photo montage. Wrt the assortment of firearms, as far as I can see the photos show the police discharging the crappy tear gas in an unprofessional way, and one officer pointing a handgun (another poster has since posted a link to a series of photos of which the latter is part, which shows a colleague of the officer in question appearing to admonish him, and the handgun being quickly re-holstered).

Read the thread posted earlier on the charges against Thaksin's brother-in-law Somchai et al (the same Post # 25).

They were aware of the carnage they were causing in the morning... and in a second wave of shooting in the afternoon and early evening, continued to use the same exploding tear gas canisters. Hence the maliciousness of their knowingly firing lethal weaponry was worthy of seeking criminal charges against those in charge.

It's all about who's running the show, John. PAD and their powerful backers want ar$es kicked over the parliament debacle. Were PT somehow to form the next government, heads would roll regarding the army crackdown last year. That's just how things work in a semi-third world pseudo-democracy like Thailand.

[Siam Simon]

Looking at the yellow and/or red shirt topics I'm always reminded of the movie Casablanca with local police Captain Louis Renault saying "Round up the usual suspects." The list of members posting here reflects the same (me included)

Haha. Good one. Putting things in perspective.

[cougar52]

In fact, PAD organisers told the BBC they had carefully planned the seizure of the airport weeks before.

The weakness of Thailand's police is also important. from the Jonathan Head article

[oldsailor35]

The question is this. Why did the army move in against protestors who shut a shopping district but the rest of the city functioned and they didnt move in against an airport sitin(plus 5 months at GH) that abosolutely crippled this country and cost billions of dollars. Secondly if Thaksin funded the reds debacle, who funded the near six month yellow shirt protests.

A question i would love to see the answer to ! Its not only the cost to the airport, but all those affected Airlines and the thousands of stranded passengers both leaving and arriving. Who is going to pay for all this damage. Some of us at our own expense had to catch trains and busses from Singapore after being stranded there. But nothing has been said or done about this, instead the Redshirts have been persued with utmost vigour.

[rubl]

The question is this. Why did the army move in against protestors who shut a shopping district but the rest of the city functioned and they didnt move in against an airport sitin(plus 5 months at GH) that abosolutely crippled this country and cost billions of dollars. Secondly if Thaksin funded the reds debacle, who funded the near six month yellow shirt protests.

A question i would love to see the answer to ! Its not only the cost to the airport, but all those affected Airlines and the thousands of stranded passengers both leaving and arriving. Who is going to pay for all this damage. Some of us at our own expense had to catch trains and busses from Singapore after being stranded there. But nothing has been said or done about this, instead the Redshirts have been persued with utmost vigour.

To be fair there was at least one answer to truethailand's question.

Read it and if you still have questions, post them here.

[Siam Simon]

The question is this. Why did the army move in against protestors who shut a shopping district but the rest of the city functioned and they didnt move in against an airport sitin(plus 5 months at GH) that abosolutely crippled this country and cost billions of dollars. Secondly if Thaksin funded the reds debacle, who funded the near six month yellow shirt protests.

A question i would love to see the answer to ! Its not only the cost to the airport, but all those affected Airlines and the thousands of stranded passengers both leaving and arriving. Who is going to pay for all this damage. Some of us at our own expense had to catch trains and busses from Singapore after being stranded there. But nothing has been said or done about this, instead the Redshirts have been persued with utmost vigour.

To be fair there was at least one answer to truethailand's question.

Read it and if you still have questions, post them here.

Talking of animatic's opinions about the troubles last year...he told Nick Nostitz that he had witness accounts that contradicted the witness accounts of Nick and other Western media observers who are so despised by the forum's right wing extremists. Nick asked him for these accounts, and animatic said that he would get back after his busy New Year's work schedule.......waiting.......

[cougar52]

Secondly if Thaksin funded the reds debacle, who funded the near six month yellow shirt protests.

This article suggests a few possibilities: http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/thailand/081209/who-bankrolled-thailands-revolution

Incidentally, in a Jonathan Head (BBC) article about PAD's backers, he says "In fact, PAD organisers told the BBC they had carefully planned the seizure of the airport weeks before." I don't know why people on this board keep repeating the nonsense about the airport invasion being an "accident". What if the UDD leaders claimed the hospital invasion was an accident? Would that be accepted? Of course not.

Now don't be hasty, young master Emptyset.

The Jonathan Head article can still be found here

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7762806.stm

Interesting is that apart from the quote 'PAD planned seizure' in this article (and in copies available on other websites) I cannot find any further information on this. Sorry to say, but that means we can only speculate on this, unless you have more details.

As for the hospital invasion it was indeed an 'accident', we incorrectly believed army personel was hiding there. That's why we had to check, storming the hospital under loud noise, armed with bamboo sticks and scaring the hell out of sick people and hospital staff. Even our esteemed Dr. weng "acknowledged some red shirts have a 'cowboy attitude' that presents an image problem for the movement, which is already struggling to get support from middle-class Bangkok." Very sorry, but clearly just as bad as occupying an airport peacefully.

Read more here

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/01/world/asia/01thai.html

Let me help you with your search, first it was "Operation Hiroshima" or as it was called by the PAD;

Protest at Suvarnabhumi International Airport and closures of airports

On the evening of Tuesday 25 November 2008, the PAD executed what they called "Operation Hiroshima." A convoy of hundreds of armed PAD members dressed in yellow blocked the two ends of the road in front of the terminal building of Suvarnabhumi International Airport, Bangkok's main airport and an important regional hub and blockaded the main road to the airport, aiming at resisting the landing of the prime minister's flight. . PAD forces quickly overpowered hundreds of policemen armed with riot gear. PAD leaders mounted a mobile stage and proceeded to criticize the government. PAD members armed with clubs, iron bars and knives, with some wearing black balaclavas, then entered the terminal, much to the surprise of the thousands of travellers inside.

Official closure of the airport

PAD forces also forced their way into the control tower, demanding the flight plan for Prime Minister Somchai Wongsawat's return from the APEC summit in Peru. Somchai flew into Bangkok Don Muang airport on the evening of 25 November 2008 before flying on to Chiang Mai. After hours of turmoil, the Airports of Thailand, AOT, eventually decided that all Suvarnabhumi flights were suspended, leaving thousands of travelers stranded in the airport., this action led to the official closure of the airport later.