PAD To Sue PM Abhisit For Causing Territorial Loss To Cambodia

[webfact]

PAD to sue PM for causing territorial loss

By The Nation

The People's Alliance for Democracy has targetted Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva and relevant officials for a criminal litigation and a graft probe for lapse of duty to cause territorial loss, PAD leader Prapan Koonmee said on Wednesday.

PAD lawyers are preparing to prosecute Abhisit in the Supreme Court's Criminal Division for Political Office Holders and submit a petition for the National Anti Corruption Commission to investigate the territoral loss to Cambodia, Prapan said.

"The planned litigation is aimed at stepping up the PAD-led protest," he said.

He also said the PAD would expand its attacks on the government to cover non-border issues such as corruption and suspicious regulations to rein in the rise of palm oil price.

The PAD has vowed to protest until the government agrees to meet its three demands - the cancellation of the 2000 memorandum of understanding on the Thai-Cambodian borders, the withdrawal from the Unesco's World Heritage Committee and the expulsion of Cambodian border encroachers.

-- The Nation 2011-01-26

[Siripon]

The PAD have become a farce and I look forward to seeing Sonthi and Jamlong in jail alongside Nattawut and Mor Weng.

[animatic]

This shows how clueless that have become.

Grasping at straws to justify their existence.

[Soutpeel]

Interesting....if PAD manages to suceed in suing the PM and the precedent is set, may be I can sue the British Royal family for the parts of France they conceded to the Frence,..or the British goverment for giving away India, Aussie etc...

space cadets the lot of them...red & yellow

Edited January 26, 2011 by Soutpeel

[Edwin Buurman]

I am a former admirer and supporter of the PAD, but in this case I completaly disagree with them. Their approach can and will cause a war. The PAD should be hold accountable for this. They are playing with the lives of soldiers and citizens and their approach wil harm Thais economy a lot.

If silencing the leaders is the only option left, then just put them quickly in jail. Sorry Chamlong, sorry Sonthi and so on, but this the best way to safeguard and to protect Thailands interest.

A former admirer

[Pi Sek]

^^

Me too, to the word.

[Ricardo]

This shows how clueless that have become.

Grasping at straws to justify their existence.

I can only agree. This doesn't look much like a movement which was (once - by some) supposed to control the current government.

PAD was useful IMO in helping expose corruption under TRT, and in delaying attempts to change the law to whitewash the absconded former-PM, but they have been degenerating ever since. This ultra-nationalist stuff is ridiculous.

There can be little risk of NPP/PAD getting many/any MPs at the next election.

[hanuman1]

Of course the PAD have the right to bring this litigation, but if the charge is that this Thai government caused the loss of Thai territory, then to establish this as fact the PAD lawyers will have to achieve something that the region's foremost historians, international organizations and relevant politicians from both sides have failed to do for the last 50 years. That is, to determine the ownership and status of specific parcels of land over that time.

I understand that a preliminary part of the legal process in such litigation involves a judge or judges determining if there is sufficient evidence and/or credibility to bring the charge, before allowing the action to continue.

It would seem that to avoid this case lasting several years and wasting a whole lot of the country's tax money, this case ought to fall at this first legal hurdle. What other outcome could there be?

Edited January 26, 2011 by hanuman1

[junglist]

After meeting Sonthi i lost faith in the PAD. They are just like the Red's. Poor people being used by the rich.

[Thailand]

I think they should also be suing him for the split between Micky and Minnie mouse, make about as much sense.

They have become a joke.

At least the Reds are now gaining some momentum and in comparison are now looking quite sensible-sad to say!

[random]

they always have been, and always will be a violent, dangerous movement, the dems need to watch out as they have enemies within also, quite a few elected politicians are members of the PAD, and quite a few unelected ones. The big issue here is the foreign minister, unelected and a fervent PAD supporter, and I guess dealing with foreign countries falls under his ministry.

Hopefully this clown will now be booted out of office for fear of the further damage he could do to both relations with cambodia and internal relations, I am quite sure Hun Sen is adverse to dealing with an unelected official that once called him a gangster.

On another note, karma is a bitch it is nice to see these two groups struggling and fighting, hopefully they will finish each other off for good. neither of them have the good of thailand at heart.

[random]

After meeting Sonthi i lost faith in the PAD. They are just like the Red's. Poor people being used by the rich.

sondhi or sonthi?

[hanuman1]

After meeting Sonthi i lost faith in the PAD. They are just like the Red's. Poor people being used by the rich.

Hi. I just wanted to make a comment about this rather fashionable viewpoint a lot of posters put forward about the gov/red/yellow groups all being controlled by various parts of the Thai elite.

Now, I'm not dismissing that out of hand, but I'd like to explore it a bit more. Specifically, if we look at the Red shirt movement, some say it is controlled by the 'associated-with-Thaksin' elite. In the decades/centuries before, we could say it was controlled by the 'establishment elite'. Now lets take a look at the effect of that control on the red shirt constituency (the majority being poor rural workers). On the one hand, the 'establishment elite' have given them very little improvement over a period of centuries. On the other, the 'Thaksin elite' has made them feel like their lives have improved in the period of one or two terms of government. Is it any wonder they chose the 'Thaksin elite' (if that's the way you want to look at it)?

For balance, I'd also like to look at the influence of 'elites' on the yellow shirt side, although there has been less focus and criticism heaped on them up to now. It seems that their most clearly defined grievances are the sovereignty of some land, some forms of corruption and the price of palm oil. The demands seem relatively narrow compared to the redshirt's desire for improved standards of living for the rural majority. Such narrow demands should in theory make it easier to identify any potential benefactors - and therefore drivers - of the movement, but I'll let others try to figure that one out.

[kuffki]

If i am wrong or do not understand something, hope someone can correct me and explain. But how can PAD sue the state for the land of the state?

PAD never owned the land, the nation did. Nation is ruled by the government. If Government in power sold or gave away land, how can 1 political party sue them?

Also Abhisit is a Prime Minister not a President, so even if they could sue, should not they be suing current government and not just the PM?

[Prudent_rabbit]

I think if any of these so called leaders actually had sons and daughters serving in the military and on the frontline and therefore a certain chance of being in any skirmish / conflict that would surely follow, they would dial down the rhetoric and come up with sensible options, but alas Thailand has not got a monoloply on that problem

[phiphidon]

After meeting Sonthi i lost faith in the PAD. They are just like the Red's. Poor people being used by the rich.

Hi. I just wanted to make a comment about this rather fashionable viewpoint a lot of posters put forward about the gov/red/yellow groups all being controlled by various parts of the Thai elite.

Now, I'm not dismissing that out of hand, but I'd like to explore it a bit more. Specifically, if we look at the Red shirt movement, some say it is controlled by the 'associated-with-Thaksin' elite. In the decades/centuries before, we could say it was controlled by the 'establishment elite'. Now lets take a look at the effect of that control on the red shirt constituency (the majority being poor rural workers). On the one hand, the 'establishment elite' have given them very little improvement over a period of centuries. On the other, the 'Thaksin elite' has made them feel like their lives have improved in the period of one or two terms of government. Is it any wonder they chose the 'Thaksin elite' (if that's the way you want to look at it)?

For balance, I'd also like to look at the influence of 'elites' on the yellow shirt side, although there has been less focus and criticism heaped on them up to now. It seems that their most clearly defined grievances are the sovereignty of some land, some forms of corruption and the price of palm oil. The demands seem relatively narrow compared to the redshirt's desire for improved standards of living for the rural majority. Such narrow demands should in theory make it easier to identify any potential benefactors - and therefore drivers - of the movement, but I'll let others try to figure that one out.

I think you forgot, or intentionally omitted, just one more demand / potential benefactor.

[katasyd]

Wasn't it Noppadon Pattama that signed the MOA with Cambodia over the temple?

Just goes to show it's not the real reason behind the protest.

[Soutpeel]

Should be an interesting Songkran this year

[Pi Sek]

After meeting Sonthi i lost faith in the PAD. They are just like the Red's. Poor people being used by the rich.

Hi. I just wanted to make a comment about this rather fashionable viewpoint a lot of posters put forward about the gov/red/yellow groups all being controlled by various parts of the Thai elite.

Now, I'm not dismissing that out of hand, but I'd like to explore it a bit more. Specifically, if we look at the Red shirt movement, some say it is controlled by the 'associated-with-Thaksin' elite. In the decades/centuries before, we could say it was controlled by the 'establishment elite'. Now lets take a look at the effect of that control on the red shirt constituency (the majority being poor rural workers). On the one hand, the 'establishment elite' have given them very little improvement over a period of centuries. On the other, the 'Thaksin elite' has made them feel like their lives have improved in the period of one or two terms of government. Is it any wonder they chose the 'Thaksin elite' (if that's the way you want to look at it)?

For balance, I'd also like to look at the influence of 'elites' on the yellow shirt side, although there has been less focus and criticism heaped on them up to now. It seems that their most clearly defined grievances are the sovereignty of some land, some forms of corruption and the price of palm oil. The demands seem relatively narrow compared to the redshirt's desire for improved standards of living for the rural majority. Such narrow demands should in theory make it easier to identify any potential benefactors - and therefore drivers - of the movement, but I'll let others try to figure that one out.

Well, I don't think the PAD ever put themselves forward as a group who were supportive of the poor. The reason that hundreds of thousands pledged support to them in 2006-2008 was that they were touting themselves as the movement who would keep Thailand from 'falling from grace' by bowing to the desires of an autocratic dictator (to an unprecedented degree) and the perceived negative change in Thai culture and its image that would have followed. However, this mandate has now expired. They now have no mandate - well, they have the mandate of a few thousand people - so their legitimacy has now expired, hasn't it? Who exactly do they think they're representing?

The Red Shirt movement's demands for social change (whatever that may entail) is a more pressing one than the PAD's nationalistic agenda or the UDD's revolutionary one - you are 100% right there. One thing about your comment as to why the Red Shirts chose the "Thaksin-affiated elite" - you say that Thaksin improved their lives although, in quite a few cases, the poor now have more debt than ever, which was intentionally brought about by one of Thaksin's poorly-studied and rushed-in populist policies, the Loans For Farmers scheme. Of course, many of these Red Shirt poor people still follow the UDD (as opposed to the Red Shirt movement) for some reason that still evades me. My only suggestions are these - 1) they are not really in it for the protest but for the money; 2) they are unaware that they are following the person who put them in debt; 3) although they realise that Thaksin put them in debt, Thaksin at least tried to change their lives somehow, and the thought is what counts. Romantically, I hope it's either the third option or another one that I haven't considered.

[Insight]

Should be an interesting Songkran this year

Does it even bear thinking about...?

[hanuman1]

Hi. I just wanted to make a comment about this rather fashionable viewpoint a lot of posters put forward about the gov/red/yellow groups all being controlled by various parts of the Thai elite.

Now, I'm not dismissing that out of hand, but I'd like to explore it a bit more. Specifically, if we look at the Red shirt movement, some say it is controlled by the 'associated-with-Thaksin' elite. In the decades/centuries before, we could say it was controlled by the 'establishment elite'. Now lets take a look at the effect of that control on the red shirt constituency (the majority being poor rural workers). On the one hand, the 'establishment elite' have given them very little improvement over a period of centuries. On the other, the 'Thaksin elite' has made them feel like their lives have improved in the period of one or two terms of government. Is it any wonder they chose the 'Thaksin elite' (if that's the way you want to look at it)?

For balance, I'd also like to look at the influence of 'elites' on the yellow shirt side, although there has been less focus and criticism heaped on them up to now. It seems that their most clearly defined grievances are the sovereignty of some land, some forms of corruption and the price of palm oil. The demands seem relatively narrow compared to the redshirt's desire for improved standards of living for the rural majority. Such narrow demands should in theory make it easier to identify any potential benefactors - and therefore drivers - of the movement, but I'll let others try to figure that one out.

Well, I don't think the PAD ever put themselves forward as a group who were supportive of the poor. The reason that hundreds of thousands pledged support to them in 2006-2008 was that they were touting themselves as the movement who would keep Thailand from 'falling from grace' by bowing to the desires of an autocratic dictator (to an unprecedented degree) and the perceived negative change in Thai culture and its image that would have followed. However, this mandate has now expired. They now have no mandate - well, they have the mandate of a few thousand people - so their legitimacy has now expired, hasn't it? Who exactly do they think they're representing?

The Red Shirt movement's demands for social change (whatever that may entail) is a more pressing one than the PAD's nationalistic agenda or the UDD's revolutionary one - you are 100% right there. One thing about your comment as to why the Red Shirts chose the "Thaksin-affiated elite" - you say that Thaksin improved their lives although, in quite a few cases, the poor now have more debt than ever, which was intentionally brought about by one of Thaksin's poorly-studied and rushed-in populist policies, the Loans For Farmers scheme. Of course, many of these Red Shirt poor people still follow the UDD (as opposed to the Red Shirt movement) for some reason that still evades me. My only suggestions are these - 1) they are not really in it for the protest but for the money; 2) they are unaware that they are following the person who put them in debt; 3) although they realise that Thaksin put them in debt, Thaksin at least tried to change their lives somehow, and the thought is what counts. Romantically, I hope it's either the third option or another one that I haven't considered.

Hi Pi Sek

you say that Thaksin improved their lives although

knowing this was a contentious issue, i deliberately chose my words carefully:

the 'Thaksin elite' has made them feel like their lives have improved

As you (probably rightly, although I haven't got all the relevant figures) pointed out, it seems that the Thaksin-led 'feel-good' factor for the poor was something which they enjoyed in haste and are now repenting for at leisure due to the debt incurred. However, this seems to be a pattern into which leaderships around the world far cleaner and more accountable than Thaksin's have also led their people. All those flat-screen TV's and easily-purchased cars and homes that made millions of westerners feel how lucky they were to live in those affluent countries are now biting them back on the ass. The difference for them, compared to the Thai rural poor, is that they have the safety nets of developed welfare systems (apart from healthcare in the US, but we won't go there so to speak).

[jillwilliams999]

Nice try PAD.

[mkawish]

The PAD have become a farce and I look forward to seeing Sonthi and Jamlong in jail alongside Nattawut and Mor Weng.

Siripon (just how do you spell your Thai name, mamme.... or is it sir....?)

Are you another Thai turncoat.... ?

Since when, do the Thai courts ever handdown decision imprisoning Thai who are demonstrably loyal to the throne and Thailand....?

Are you an educated but misguided Thai or a Farang who has been basking in Thai unmerciful sunshine for too long without a thatched straw hat....? :jap:

Just wonder out loud sir/mamme.... and not meant to be a personal attack of any kind.... ok?

[mkawish]

I am a former admirer and supporter of the PAD, but in this case I completaly disagree with them. Their approach can and will cause a war. The PAD should be hold accountable for this. They are playing with the lives of soldiers and citizens and their approach wil harm Thais economy a lot.

If silencing the leaders is the only option left, then just put them quickly in jail. Sorry Chamlong, sorry Sonthi and so on, but this the best way to safeguard and to protect Thailands interest.

A former admirer

Edwin....

Just what do you find objectionable and/or offensive about protecting Thailand territorial, the current Thai govt has been doing hush hush biz for some 2+ without seeing any visible result in terms of protecting Thailand interest on the Northeastern frontier....

You stated that you completely disagreed with them....?

Which points did you disagree with them on, sir?

Here are their announced goals and objectives, briefly:

1--To rescind and cancel the MOU43 (to stop allowing some third nations to redefine Thailand territorial in favor of Camb HuSan) ;

2--To withdraw from participating in JBC (to disjoint from JBC to remain an independent Nation without allowing any Third nation to tell Thailand what to do with its own territorial) and;

3--To force the encroaching Cambodian back to their Cambodian country (according to the UN records, the Camb has been allowed by the International community to temporarily settle on Thailand territorial since around 1980....?)

How are any of these going to cause war.... ?

How are they playing lives....?

How is this going to hurt Thai econ....?

How is silencing JumbLong and SonThi helpful to Thailand....?

Are you in favor of seeing the current Apisit govt giving away part of Thailand to the Cambodian HuSan....?

Were you born then, when the United Nations et al dug a well in Thailand territorial to feed the Cambodian refugees....

many news clippings from those bygone years stated that.... that well was dug on Thailand territorial for the benefits of Cambodian refugees....

Those news clippings further stated that those Cambodian refugees were fleeing into Thailand by several 100,000 ....

and settling on Thai soil ....

and under Thai graciousness ....

and the International communities including the International Red Cross were doing their very best to resettle those Cambodian refugees to the more civilized third countries....

Finally, after some 30+ years of living and encroaching on Thai territorial.... those offsprings of the original Cambodian refugees have the right to claim the land they were encroaching on.... as their own....?

After having read the above brief accounts, do you still of the opinion that Thailand and/or Apisit Thai govt should just give away those border land to HuSan....?

Or allow some third nations to help redrawing Thailand territorial in favor of the Camb HuSan....?

For you info, I was one of the many thousand of volunteers helping on the resettlement of those pitiful Cambodian refugees to the third nations....

and in those dreadful days....

The well and the encampment sites were all dug, built and maintained on Thai territorial by Thai people, members of International Red Cross and members of the United Nation....

It is now becoming anyone's guess.... just how the Cambodian HuSan can rightfully and judiciary claim those land are Cambodian's and have been on Cambodian map since ages....

The only possible way is thru a committee named JBC.... to redistribute Thailand territorial and

with Thailand participation....

Edwin, do you now see why Thailand must rescind and null and void anything and everything that rends herself to become a part of the dubious political maneuvering by the JBC.... in favor of Cambodian HuSan.... :jap: :jap: :jap:

Perhaps, many others would be able to argue these points much more eloquently and much more politically correct....

[mkawish]

If i am wrong or do not understand something, hope someone can correct me and explain. But how can PAD sue the state for the land of the state?

PAD never owned the land, the nation did. Nation is ruled by the government. If Government in power sold or gave away land, how can 1 political party sue them?

Also Abhisit is a Prime Minister not a President, so even if they could sue, should not they be suing current government and not just the PM?

A provision of the Thai Constitution does allow Execution or Life imprisionment....

if person or persons or party found in the court of laws to be....

doing anything subversively or

not doing anythinbg within its power....

causing Thailand to lose her sovereignty or land et cetera....

So there are grounds under Thai constitution to proceed against the current Thai govt and its members, particularly the PM--Apisit, SuThep and other deupties who came out to state on national TV that the 7 were arrested on Cambodian territorial.... and that Cambodians have been settling and living on those parcels for many decades....

[Siripon]

The PAD have become a farce and I look forward to seeing Sonthi and Jamlong in jail alongside Nattawut and Mor Weng.

Siripon (just how do you spell your Thai name, mamme.... or is it sir....?)

Are you another Thai turncoat.... ?

Since when, do the Thai courts ever handdown decision imprisoning Thai who are demonstrably loyal to the throne and Thailand....?

Are you an educated but misguided Thai or a Farang who has been basking in Thai unmerciful sunshine for too long without a thatched straw hat....? :jap:

Just wonder out loud sir/mamme.... and not meant to be a personal attack of any kind.... ok?

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

My name is spelt ศิริพร so you should know whether to call me sir or madam. I'll ignore your rudeness.

I supported Jamlong in 1992 against Sujinda, though I recall he called off his hunger strike after only one day,'due to the people's demands', and I supported Sonthi against the dangerous Thaksin, but the MOU with Cambodia is a necessary mechanism for settling the border lines. Driving the Cambodians out of the disputed areas will lead to battles, skirmishes and possible border closure, severely affecting the local population, but not Jamlong in his leadership school in Kanchanaburi.

The PAD want war and\or a coup but neither will happen for Apisit is too clever for them, the middle class don't support the PAD on this issue and Jamlong's boast that he ousted 3 PMs, Sujinda, Thaksin and Somchai and that Apisit will be the fourth is nothing but the empty bragging of a man embittered with the Democrats since Chuan took the premiership instead of him in 1992.

[asiawatcher]

When the yellows forced the removal of Thaksin I was 100% behind them - now they are a complete joke, off the rails and as already stated, clueless and grasping at straws. What a waste of taxpayers money and the Government's time getting this action running.

Edited January 27, 2011 by asiawatcher

[scorecard]

Of course the PAD have the right to bring this litigation, but if the charge is that this Thai government caused the loss of Thai territory, then to establish this as fact the PAD lawyers will have to achieve something that the region's foremost historians, international organizations and relevant politicians from both sides have failed to do for the last 50 years. That is, to determine the ownership and status of specific parcels of land over that time.

I understand that a preliminary part of the legal process in such litigation involves a judge or judges determining if there is sufficient evidence and/or credibility to bring the charge, before allowing the action to continue.

It would seem that to avoid this case lasting several years and wasting a whole lot of the country's tax money, this case ought to fall at this first legal hurdle. What other outcome could there be?

Plus, to ensure there are no 'double standards' others should also be investigated for possibly damage to Thailand in this matter, and the first two persons on the list should be: thaksin, and noppadon.

[Macmundi]

Thailand is allowing too much of this government pressure tactics. Siripon is right. Throw the reds and the yellows leaders in the same cell and let them settle their differences there. Whatever the result, who cares?!

[SantiSuk]

Interesting....if PAD manages to suceed in suing the PM and the precedent is set, may be I can sue the British Royal family for the parts of France they conceded to the Frence,..or the British goverment for giving away India, Aussie etc...

space cadets the lot of them...red & yellow

The Thai constitution seriously sucks if you are allowed to sue a Member of Parliament. They could not possibly do their job, as intrinsically it involves compromising between opposing views, one of which is likely to take offence at almost any decision.

You can't sue government in the UK (and I suspect royalty also). An individual MP can be prosecuted for a criminal activity (suing is a civil offence activity) - perhaps PAD are playing that card and the reporting is loose.

Edited January 27, 2011 by SantiSuk