Cambodian, Thai Troops Clash Near Disputed Temple

[Buchholz]

Students of school damaged in fighting to use auditorium as temporary classrooms

BANGKOK, Feb 6 -- Students of a border school which was hit by artillery shells fired by Cambodian troops during fierce fighting with Thai troops will have to use the school’s auditorium and the field as temporary classrooms, said Education Minister Chinnaworn Boonyakiat on Sunday.

The roof and classrooms of the two-storey school building, situated near the Thai-Cambodian disputed border close to the ancient Preah Vihear temple, was damaged during the two-day clashes which began Friday.

Mr Chinnaworn said damages to the school were estimated at Bt3 million.

He said students there will have to temporarily use the school’s auditorium while tents will be erected on the field so that teaching could resume.

For safety precautions, education officials in Si Sa Ket border province will have full authority to close schools in case fighting between both sides resumed, he said.

Teachers will have to closely coordinate with the Second Region Army Command, which is responsible for security in northeastern Thailand, as well with students’ parents in allowing the students to hide in safe areas in case fighting renewed, Mr Chinnaworn said.

By early Sunday, no report of fresh fighting had erupted after senior Thai and Cambodian soldiers on Saturday agreed to a ceasefire. Both sides also agreed that neither side would reinforce their troops at the border, prevent an accident from reoccurring in the future and promised to coordinate more closely with an aim to preventing clashes at the ill-defined border from erupting again.

-- TNA 2011-01-06

[whybother]

Why did the Cambodians target schools and villages?

[geriatrickid]

Pardon the tangent, but who can rpull these fools back from the abyss of confrontation? Is there someone with enogh gravitas that can mediate a ceasefire? Would a foreign mediator help? If one uses the Northern Ireland peace process as an example, retired U.S. Senator Mitchell, Canadian Major General Chastelain and former Finland PM Harri Holkeri were able to structure a peace agreement. There is no excuse for two relatively peaceful nations to exchange hostile fire in 2011. Ok, I know TiT, but still surely they can do better than this? Instead of pointing fingers, shouldn't the emphasis be on turning down the heat and getting both sides to the negotiating table?

[animatic]

Now Abhist is claiming he wants to stop the registration of the temple with the W.H.O.

The WHO decision was in 2008.

Purely for accuracy sake of everyone, WHO is the World Health Organization and has nothing to do with World Heritage sites.

UNESCO is the cognizant entity.

Maybe he has not Bird Flue worries at the temple? So who needs W.H.O.

[Buchholz]

Trat and Chanthaburi to increase border patrol amid Thai-Cambodian tensions

TRAD, 6 February 2011 (NNT)-The Royal Marine Corps and Chanthaburi and Trat Border Division Control Commander, Vice Admiral Pongsak Pooreerot, visited border units in Ban Dan Chumphon and Ban Khao Lan to make sure they are ready to protect Thai border after the report of clashes between Thai and Cambodian soldiers in Sisaket province.

Vice Admiral Pongsak stated that the border in Trat province, the easternmost province of Thailand which is also adjacent to Cambodia, has been peaceful.

He added that local army units have also provided cooperation and will be ready to defend Thai border at any time. However, there will be no increase in manpower at present.

Offshore patrol vessels around Koh Kut will also be added for security at sea.

-- NNT 2011-01-06

Edited February 6, 2011 by Buchholz

[Buchholz]

Phnom Pehn broadcast video footage of the border incidents, sparking angry among Cambodians

CAMBODIA, 6 February 2011 (NNT)-A Cambodian TV station in Phnom Penh reportedly broadcast a video footage of the border incidents between Thai and Cambodian soldiers while another one showing the pagoda damaged in the crossfire.

The move has sparked widespread patriotism among Cambodian people and many of them are convinced that Thai soldiers had invaded their territory.

-- NNT 2011-01-06

[Buchholz]

Pardon the tangent, but who can rpull these fools back from the abyss of confrontation? Is there someone with enogh gravitas that can mediate a ceasefire? Would a foreign mediator help?

There is no excuse for two relatively peaceful nations to exchange hostile fire in 2011. Ok, I know TiT, but still surely they can do better than this? Instead of pointing fingers, shouldn't the emphasis be on turning down the heat and getting both sides to the negotiating table?

ASEAN to mediate in Thai-Cambodian row

The deteriorating situation along Thai-Cambodian border is undermining confidence in ASEAN and affecting economic recovery, tourism, and investment prospect in the region, an English news website the Nation Saturday quoted Secretary-General of ASEAN as saying. Surin Pitsuwan, Secretary-General of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) said in his urgent message to the two ASEAN Member States now trading fires with casualties on both sides, the English news website reported.

"I am deeply concerned about the serious situation on the border between Thailand and Cambodia. This violent conflict must be brought under control and return to negotiating table soonest," said Surin. The violent conflict started with gun fire and artillery duels mid Friday afternoon near the disputed Preah Vihear temple. The temple, known as Preah Vihear in Cambodia and Khao Phra Viharn in Thailand, sits on land that forms a natural border and has been a source of tension for generations.

While the International Court of Justice awarded the temple to Cambodia in 1962, the areas adjacent to the 11th Hindu temple remain under dispute. "I have been in touch with Deputy Prime Minister and Minister for Foreign Affairs of Cambodia Hor Namhong, and the Foreign Minister of Thailand, Kasit Piromya, and I have appealed for calm, maximum restraint on both sides, and expressed my fervent desire to see both sides return to a negotiating table as soon as possible, said the ASEAN Secretary-General.

Continues:

http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90777/90851/7280491.html

Xinhua - Feb. 6, 2011

[Steely Dan]

Thailand objected to the maps in the 1960's which is why it went to the ICJ in the first place. The WHO decision was in 2008.

But this fight isn't over the temple, which is the only thing the ICJ ruled on. This fight is over the land near the temple. For various reasons, the border in this area has never been properly demarcated.

It's just should we say highly coincidental that the 4.6sq Km of scrub which is in dispute happens to be extremely close to the temple which the ICJ ruled on, so by disputing this territory has the also coincidental effect of preventing Cambodia from gaining any tourist revenue from the temple.

In other words Thailand is relying on a technicality to attempt to bully/coerce Cambodia into tearing up the ICJ judgement and WHO registration by indirect means seeing as they know full well they would get nowhere through recognised international channels.

[whybother]

Thailand objected to the maps in the 1960's which is why it went to the ICJ in the first place. The WHO decision was in 2008.

But this fight isn't over the temple, which is the only thing the ICJ ruled on. This fight is over the land near the temple. For various reasons, the border in this area has never been properly demarcated.

It's just should we say highly coincidental that the 4.6sq Km of scrub which is in dispute happens to be extremely close to the temple which the ICJ ruled on, so by disputing this territory has the also coincidental effect of preventing Cambodia from gaining any tourist revenue from the temple.

In other words Thailand is relying on a technicality to attempt to bully/coerce Cambodia into tearing up the ICJ judgement and WHO registration by indirect means seeing as they know full well they would get nowhere through recognised international channels.

The ICJ specifically did not rule on the land. There is no technicality about it.

[Steely Dan]

Thailand objected to the maps in the 1960's which is why it went to the ICJ in the first place. The WHO decision was in 2008.

But this fight isn't over the temple, which is the only thing the ICJ ruled on. This fight is over the land near the temple. For various reasons, the border in this area has never been properly demarcated.

It's just should we say highly coincidental that the 4.6sq Km of scrub which is in dispute happens to be extremely close to the temple which the ICJ ruled on, so by disputing this territory has the also coincidental effect of preventing Cambodia from gaining any tourist revenue from the temple.

In other words Thailand is relying on a technicality to attempt to bully/coerce Cambodia into tearing up the ICJ judgement and WHO registration by indirect means seeing as they know full well they would get nowhere through recognised international channels.

The ICJ specifically did not rule on the land. There is no technicality about it.

This does not change my point one iota. There are hundreds of kilometers of border between Thailand and Cambodia, not to mention Thailand's borders with other neighbouring Countries. I suspect the demarcation of many border areas is unclear but not so hotly disputed. Indeed when munitions landed in Thai territory and Karen fighters crossed into Thailand following internal strife in Myannmar Thailand's attitude was to turn the other cheek provided such occurences were limited, contrast this with the small area of land next to the Temple which was internationally judged to belong to Cambodia. You may be able to convince a small number of PAD ultra-nationalists with semantic arguments but nobody else is fooled.

[Buchholz]

Thai prime minister defends army's actions in border battle

Bangkok - Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva insisted Sunday Thai troops were not to blame for deadly border skirmishes with Cambodia, as a fragile truce held along a strip of disputed land. "I confirm that Thailand did not invade Cambodian territory," Abhisit said. "But we reserve our right to protect our sovereignty in an appropriate way."

"Our counterattacks never target civilians, only the (Cambodian) military that started firing on us," he said. One Thai soldier, one civilian and at least three Cambodians were reportedly killed Friday and Saturday in exchanges of small arms and artillery fire along the border between Thailand's Si Sa Ket province and Cambodia's Preah Vihear province.

Cambodian Foreign Minister Hor Namhong lodged a protest with the UN Security Council on Saturday, accusing Thai troops of "flagrant aggression." The fighting took place near the 11th-century Preah Vihear temple, which has been disputed by the two countries for more than 50 years. The cliff-side Khmer Hindu temple was awarded to Cambodia in a 1962 ruling by the International Court of Justice, but ownership of adjoining land has remained in dispute.

Continues:

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/news/366042,armys-actions-border-battle.html

DPA - Feb. 6, 2011

[Buchholz]

Cambodian Foreign Minister Hor Namhong lodged a protest with the UN Security Council on Saturday,

*Edit:

hmmmm... more readable size available at:

http://www.tvk.gov.kh/

Edited February 6, 2011 by Buchholz

[Buchholz]

Thai PM calls for peaceful solution to border dispute as shaky cease-fire holds with Cambodia

BANGKOK - Thailand's prime minister called Sunday for a peaceful solution to a border dispute with Cambodia, but warned Thai soldiers will defend national sovereignty if attacked. The fiercest border clashes in years erupted Friday and Saturday between troops stationed along the border. Sporadic artillery fire left at least five people dead — one civilian and one soldier from Thailand and one civilian and two soldiers from Cambodia. A shaky cease-fire reached Saturday appeared to be holding.

Both sides have blamed each other for the fighting, which also caused minor damage to the landmark 11th century Preah Vihear temple near a strip of disputed land that Thai nationalists have seized on as a domestic political issue. "I insist that the dispute on the border issues must be solved through nonviolent means," Thai Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajvia said in his weekly Sunday morning address to the nation. "Thailand never thought of invading anyone, but if our sovereignty is violated, we have to protect it ultimately."

Commanders stationed on both sides of the border met Sunday, saying they would continue to respect the cease-fire and pledges not to deploy more troops to the area. They also agreed that thousands of residents evacuated from the area would be allowed to return home. Thai army spokesman Col. Sansern Kaewkamnerd indicated the return of residents would not happen immediately. "We have to consider if it's safe for villagers to return, area by area," he said. "If the two sides keep their promises and the situation gets resolved, eventually all of them will go back. But safety for the villagers must come first." Thailand's Foreign Ministry says at least 3,000 people have fled their homes, while Cambodian authorities say about 1,000 families were evacuated on their side.

Continues:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/thai-cambodia-clashes-kill-1-more-truce-thousands-20110205-032415-273.html

-- (c) Associated Press 2011-01-06

[Just1Voice]

Thailand objected to the maps in the 1960's which is why it went to the ICJ in the first place. The WHO decision was in 2008.

But this fight isn't over the temple, which is the only thing the ICJ ruled on. This fight is over the land near the temple. For various reasons, the border in this area has never been properly demarcated.

It's just should we say highly coincidental that the 4.6sq Km of scrub which is in dispute happens to be extremely close to the temple which the ICJ ruled on, so by disputing this territory has the also coincidental effect of preventing Cambodia from gaining any tourist revenue from the temple.

In other words Thailand is relying on a technicality to attempt to bully/coerce Cambodia into tearing up the ICJ judgement and WHO registration by indirect means seeing as they know full well they would get nowhere through recognised international channels.

The ICJ specifically did not rule on the land. There is no technicality about it.

With all due respect, you're wrong. The ICJ did, IN FACT, state that the French map was the "official" map, and that the boundary line indicated on it was the OFFICIAL border line. Read the ruling, as I have done three times now, and see for yourself.

[metisdead]

Posts containing personal attacks have been removed.

[whybother]

The ICJ specifically did not rule on the land. There is no technicality about it.

With all due respect, you're wrong. The ICJ did, IN FACT, state that the French map was the "official" map, and that the boundary line indicated on it was the OFFICIAL border line. Read the ruling, as I have done three times now, and see for yourself.

With all due respect, I'm not wrong.

You are correct that the ICJ did state that the French map was the "official" map.

But their decision, and the whole case, was only based on the ownership of the temple, and not the surrounding lands.

Proceedings in the case concerning the Temple of Preah Vihear, between Cambodia and Thailand,

In its Judgment on the merits the Court, by nine votes to three, found that the Temple of Preah Vihear was situated in territory under the sovereignty of Cambodia

http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/index.php?sum=284&code=ct&p1=3&p2=3&case=45&k=46&p3=5

If the case for the surrounding lands went to the ICJ, they might probably rule in Cambodia's favour. But at this point, that hasn't happened.

[Just1Voice]

With all due respect, I'm not wrong.

You are correct that the ICJ did state that the French map was the "official" map.

But their decision, and the whole case, was only based on the ownership of the temple, and not the surrounding lands.

Proceedings in the case concerning the Temple of Preah Vihear, between Cambodia and Thailand,

In its Judgment on the merits the Court, by nine votes to three, found that the Temple of Preah Vihear was situated in territory under the sovereignty of Cambodia

http://www.icj-cij.o...se=45&k=46&p3=5

If the case for the surrounding lands went to the ICJ, they might probably rule in Cambodia's favour. But at this point, that hasn't happened.

You're trying to "split hairs". The court ruled that the French map was the officially recognized map, WITH the boundary line CLEARLY INDICATED, even though it was not the watershed line. With this decision, there is no "dispute" - legally - as to where the border is. Therefore, the only one "disputing" the area around the temple is Thailand, because they refuse to accept either the map or the ICJ ruling. But instead of filing an appeal, which would have been the proper procedure, they want to continue to pout and while like a spoiled child who can't have his way. The court, in very basic language, said: "This is the OFFICIALLY RECOGNIZED map, and THIS is the OFFICIALLY RECOGNIZED BORDER LINE." Please read the ruling with an OPEN mind instead of a prejudicial one. I love Thailand and her people, but in this issue they are completely wrong, basing their decisions on emotions instead of facts. They lost in court, and they really need to "grow up" and get over it. There are hundreds of things 1,000 times more important to this country than this stupid issue.

However, we do agree that if the case went back to the ICJ, more than likely they would rule in favor of Cambodia. Thailand knows this, which is why they won't agree to settle it that way, or let any other outside, neutral party get involved. As I've stated before, they care more about loss of "face" than the loss of lives.

And for those who still cling to the idea that the Thai military would "crush" the Cambodian military, just look south. Hell, they can't even get a clue as to the "insurgents" down there, who bomb, shoot and kill on a daily basis, despite the so-called "best efforts" of Thailand's finest.

[whybother]

With all due respect, I'm not wrong.

You are correct that the ICJ did state that the French map was the "official" map.

But their decision, and the whole case, was only based on the ownership of the temple, and not the surrounding lands.

Proceedings in the case concerning the Temple of Preah Vihear, between Cambodia and Thailand,

In its Judgment on the merits the Court, by nine votes to three, found that the Temple of Preah Vihear was situated in territory under the sovereignty of Cambodia

http://www.icj-cij.o...se=45&k=46&p3=5

If the case for the surrounding lands went to the ICJ, they might probably rule in Cambodia's favour. But at this point, that hasn't happened.

You're trying to "split hairs". The court ruled that the French map was the officially recognized map, WITH the boundary line CLEARLY INDICATED, even though it was not the watershed line. With this decision, there is no "dispute" - legally - as to where the border is. Therefore, the only one "disputing" the area around the temple is Thailand, because they refuse to accept either the map or the ICJ ruling. But instead of filing an appeal, which would have been the proper procedure, they want to continue to pout and while like a spoiled child who can't have his way. The court, in very basic language, said: "This is the OFFICIALLY RECOGNIZED map, and THIS is the OFFICIALLY RECOGNIZED BORDER LINE." Please read the ruling with an OPEN mind instead of a prejudicial one. I love Thailand and her people, but in this issue they are completely wrong, basing their decisions on emotions instead of facts. They lost in court, and they really need to "grow up" and get over it. There are hundreds of things 1,000 times more important to this country than this stupid issue.

However, we do agree that if the case went back to the ICJ, more than likely they would rule in favor of Cambodia. Thailand knows this, which is why they won't agree to settle it that way, or let any other outside, neutral party get involved. As I've stated before, they care more about loss of "face" than the loss of lives.

And for those who still cling to the idea that the Thai military would "crush" the Cambodian military, just look south. Hell, they can't even get a clue as to the "insurgents" down there, who bomb, shoot and kill on a daily basis, despite the so-called "best efforts" of Thailand's finest.

Law is all about splitting hairs. The ICJ only "ruled" on the temple and not the surrounding areas.

[Just1Voice]

Sometimes it's like you can take a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

1) The court ruled the French map is the official map.

2) The map clearly shows the border line. Agreed, it was not the watershed, as it may have been intended, but nevertheless, it clearly shows the border.

Ergo: IF the map is the official map, which it is, then the border line drawn on it is the official border line. What is so hard about comprehending that????

[mkawish]

Why did the Cambodians target schools and villages?

If you look back a little way, you probably could see it clearly enough to tentatively surmise that;

as it is stated in one of the items in the JBC doc.... that both Thai and Cambodia must show that....

that there is no dispute in the areas to be considered in June, 2011....

Since a few years back, Camb has been preparing and clearing areas used to belonging to Thailand since 1980....

Perhaps, last Friday and Saturday shooting across the border destroying Thai villagers' abodes

could be the last unofficial clearing of the area in preparation for the upcoming JBC June, 2011 meeting,

for the official declaration of who owns what and where....

Just a thought and a possibility....

[whybother]

Sometimes it's like you can take a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

1) The court ruled the French map is the official map.

2) The map clearly shows the border line. Agreed, it was not the watershed, as it may have been intended, but nevertheless, it clearly shows the border.

Ergo: IF the map is the official map, which it is, then the border line drawn on it is the official border line. What is so hard about comprehending that????

The court made no such ruling. What is so hard about comprehending that?

The only ruling they made was that the temple was in Cambodia.

They used the "official" map in making that decision, but they didn't make any ruling regarding the map.

And therefore, they didn't make any ruling regarding the rest of the land around the temple.

[mkawish]

With all due respect, I'm not wrong.

You are correct that the ICJ did state that the French map was the "official" map.

But their decision, and the whole case, was only based on the ownership of the temple, and not the surrounding lands.

Proceedings in the case concerning the Temple of Preah Vihear, between Cambodia and Thailand,

In its Judgment on the merits the Court, by nine votes to three, found that the Temple of Preah Vihear was situated in territory under the sovereignty of Cambodia

http://www.icj-cij.o...se=45&k=46&p3=5

If the case for the surrounding lands went to the ICJ, they might probably rule in Cambodia's favour. But at this point, that hasn't happened.

You're trying to "split hairs". The court ruled that the French map was the officially recognized map, WITH the boundary line CLEARLY INDICATED, even though it was not the watershed line. With this decision, there is no "dispute" - legally - as to where the border is. Therefore, the only one "disputing" the area around the temple is Thailand, because they refuse to accept either the map or the ICJ ruling. But instead of filing an appeal, which would have been the proper procedure, they want to continue to pout and while like a spoiled child who can't have his way. The court, in very basic language, said: "This is the OFFICIALLY RECOGNIZED map, and THIS is the OFFICIALLY RECOGNIZED BORDER LINE." Please read the ruling with an OPEN mind instead of a prejudicial one. I love Thailand and her people, but in this issue they are completely wrong, basing their decisions on emotions instead of facts. They lost in court, and they really need to "grow up" and get over it. There are hundreds of things 1,000 times more important to this country than this stupid issue.

However, we do agree that if the case went back to the ICJ, more than likely they would rule in favor of Cambodia. Thailand knows this, which is why they won't agree to settle it that way, or let any other outside, neutral party get involved. As I've stated before, they care more about loss of "face" than the loss of lives.

And for those who still cling to the idea that the Thai military would "crush" the Cambodian military, just look south. Hell, they can't even get a clue as to the "insurgents" down there, who bomb, shoot and kill on a daily basis, despite the so-called "best efforts" of Thailand's finest.

I love Thailand and her people, but in this issue they are completely wrong, basing their decisions on emotions instead of facts. They lost in court, and they really need to "grow up" and get over it. There are hundreds of things 1,000 times more important to this country than this stupid issue.

Are you a Thai? Or do you have a Thai family?

For a Farang, perhaps any Farang remotely attached to Thailand in some ways.... your above statement could be considered as reasonably acceptable.... for Farang, that is....

However, for a Thai, any Thai.... there is no other thing or anything.... that is more important than preserving and protecting what little territory Thailand has.... remaining to date....

It is easy for a certain kind of Farang to say what you said.... but there are also other Farang living in Thailand, who completely disagree with your statement and attitudinal problem toward a sensitive issue on the Thai side at least....

For a loyal Thai, there really is absolutely nothing more important than preserving and protecting Thailand remaining territory and sovereignty....

A home owner would surely not allow any encroachment either a lurking branch of a lemon tree or other coming across your fence..... if you ever are a home owner you would surely understand that....

And for those who still cling to the idea that the Thai military would "crush" the Cambodian military, just look south. Hell, they can't even get a clue as to the "insurgents" down there, who bomb, shoot and kill on a daily basis, despite the so-called "best efforts" of Thailand's finest.

On the above, you really should not say anything at all, which would be best.

Probably, the closest you ever planted your feet on the Southern part of Thailand is SuRart.... or HaadYai....

What do you really know about the problems in YaLar, NarRaTheVard and PartTaNee....?

May I just enlighten you in a sentence of two regarding problems in the Southern most provinces....

In the south, you have no visible enemy.... no visually identifiable target....

You seem to have many interesting ideas so far.... however, perhaps, it would be best to refrain from making any reference to some topic that you are not familiar with....

With all due respect.... :jap:

[mkawish]

Sometimes it's like you can take a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

1) The court ruled the French map is the official map.

2) The map clearly shows the border line. Agreed, it was not the watershed, as it may have been intended, but nevertheless, it clearly shows the border.

Ergo: IF the map is the official map, which it is, then the border line drawn on it is the official border line. What is so hard about comprehending that????

The court made no such ruling. What is so hard about comprehending that?

The only ruling they made was that the temple was in Cambodia.

They used the "official" map in making that decision, but they didn't make any ruling regarding the map.

And therefore, they didn't make any ruling regarding the rest of the land around the temple.

You are absolutely correct and on bull's eye....

Therefore, by virtue of deduction.... since the then bias ruling that left out ruling the surrounding territory around the temple as also belonging to Camb....

therefore Camb could not legally claim that the surrounding land comes with that ruling and decision....

However, what they could not claim then.... the Camb are trying to reclaim it now in 2011....

[Just1Voice]

I give up! It's a total waste of time trying to talk sense to people who can't see the forest for the trees.

The map was/is recognized as the OFFICIAL map. Therefore, the border line, REGARDLESS of where it is on the map, is the OFFICIAL border line. If you can't comprehend that, then I don't know what to tell you.

I'm through with this.

[TAWP]

I give up! It's a total waste of time trying to talk sense to people who can't see the forest for the trees.

The map was/is recognized as the OFFICIAL map. Therefore, the border line, REGARDLESS of where it is on the map, is the OFFICIAL border line. If you can't comprehend that, then I don't know what to tell you.

I'm through with this.

Stating the same misconception again and again doesn't make it true. Deal with it.

[webfact]

Related topic:

Renewed Thai-Cambodian Border Fighting: Army

Follow this link:

[whybother]

I give up! It's a total waste of time trying to talk sense to people who can't see the forest for the trees.

The map was/is recognized as the OFFICIAL map. Therefore, the border line, REGARDLESS of where it is on the map, is the OFFICIAL border line. If you can't comprehend that, then I don't know what to tell you.

I'm through with this.

It was considered the official map for the purpose of deciding who owned the temple. There was NO RULING deciding anything except who owned the temple.

[calbears]

I give up! It's a total waste of time trying to talk sense to people who can't see the forest for the trees.

The map was/is recognized as the OFFICIAL map. Therefore, the border line, REGARDLESS of where it is on the map, is the OFFICIAL border line. If you can't comprehend that, then I don't know what to tell you.

I'm through with this.

It was considered the official map for the purpose of deciding who owned the temple. There was NO RULING deciding anything except who owned the temple.

From my understanding, the map was used multiple times in the 1930s and 1962. By signing the document in which there is a declaration of the map being the official map, Thailand acknowledged and recognized it as the official map also, by default. So the remaining question is, "could the Thai leaders at that time read the map and what were said in the documents before signing?" Or they were just content with so-so job, then after many years came back to protest like someone who could not recognize their own signatures. This is just my rambling. Who am I to say that this land belongs to Cambodia or Thailand? Let's have this dispute be sorted out by a more trusted and independent third party.

It's sad to see losses of lives of innocent people as result of this nationalistic fight, for a small piece of land that can probably yield only a few tons of rice per year, if used as a rice field. If these clashes go on, there'll be more casualties on the Thai civillians. Both armies bombs indiscriminatly into each other's territories (out of anger), it's much more populated on the Thai side than the Cambodian side. I personally do not believe any news that come out from both countries. They all try to save face and make lies to make their own people happy.

@Mengwan,

I am not a supporter no a fan of Hun Sen. Cambodian people have no choice but to stick with him for the time being. You can always allege that Cambodian people are stupid enough to support the former KR as an interpretation of your simplistic views on Cambodian politics or as a way to show your arrogance that Thais are much smarter, they would not do what the Cambodians have done when it comes to choosing a leader.

Cambodia has enjoyed relative stability just for over the last 15 years. People are still trying to forget the past and look towards having a stable future where their kids and grandkids won't have to go through what they have. Cambodian opposition party is too weak. Though I always support a strong opposition for the sake of check and balance, it is in no way ready to take over governingship.

As you have heard recently Abhisit reiterated that Thailand benefited more from the MuO with Cambodia. And I suspect that it is true. I know that Hun Sen wants to have the gaz/oil exploration asap eventhough Cambodia has to lose some maritime territory. In exchange Cambodia gets the small piece of land from Thailand as a consolation price for the Cambodian people since most have no idea where the demarcation of maritime border looks like anyway. That's why there is a strong resistance from the Thai side to scrap the MoU whereas the Cambodian side is seen being neutral though Hun Sen can't wait to get his hands on those oil money.

Thais always have the mentality of being more superior than Cambodians. That's why any perception of them losing even an inch is unaccptable, they rather go to war and act like a child.

[mkawish]

There are many competing factions of Elites, with many interconnecting ties, and many interconnecting rivalries. To see them as one large entity is not to see the bigger picture. Asian culture also values stability, particularly from the older generations.

And there is a bigger picture still.

There is not a class war in Thailand, but 65 million, daily, kow tow, class wars, fought with ever bow , wei and face making business deal. As you rise up the ranks the battles have greater collateral damage, and the need of stability grows all the greater, as long as control and increased face is maintained. The so called elites are those that have long played the game best, and those trying to knock them off the hill are the newcomers almost doing it as well, often with fewer scruples.

The mind set here is not one of us against them, keep the poor down, but one of each and every other man wants to one up every one else he meets, and makes alliances of convenience to do so. It will take much more than a proletariat take over of the reins of power to stop this centuries old pattern of thought. They will just be trading one elite for a less experienced, and less well trained to govern, one for a generation or more. That that historically has been very bad for the common man.

animatic....

very thoughtful and respectable indeed....

even though that i might not completely agree....

3 gow tow....

[MengWan]

Cambodia has enjoyed relative stability just for over the last 15 years.

So, "stability", here too, is the main factor ?

I don't know if I am "simplistic", but -if so- this too is ...

By principle, I never support militaristic thug regimes (especially the "former Khmer-Rouge"), partly because I (still can) remember that, each time an election is approaching in Cambodia, there is some kind of clash with its (far larger) neighbour ! (and I include organizing an "anti-thai pogrom" in this)

Anyone (of good faith) who makes a reconnaissance of this border find that it is absurdly situated ...

I know that it is -by far- not the only place in the world where this occurs ...

Colonial powers have left here and there potential "volcanoes", points of friction and they should examine why they did this ...

(What I know, for sure, is that at that time the "local people" of any side did not count a bit for the French)

So, anyone -genuinely- interested in stability should examine these problems -one by one- and try to prevent eruptions with a non-biased (neither "pro" nor "anti") mind !

After all, a cynical mind will quickly find that, if the Treaties signed by Siam were forced to it, why not force Cambodia to sign some other Treaty ?

(History did not stop with colonialism)