Chiang Mai Court Sentenced Akha Hill Tribe Man To Life For Murder Of British Composer David Crisp

[csolgosz]

I will not judge if its inappropriate to take a couple of young prostitutes back home, but that is definitely the lifestyle that leaded to this fatal end.

They murdered a 56 years old 'john' from England who came to Thailand and liked to rent young hill-tribe boys for cheap money. For them he wasn't that respected teacher and popular composer but just another customer who called them dirty.

Of course no reason or excuse to murder him, but if it doesn't matter and makes no difference to look at the circumstances under that young boys live and if they were prostitutes by choice or out of desperation or what ever, then all the tales about the 'public', the 'official' face of the victim and how respected he was in the expatriate community away from the red light bars have definitely nothing to do with it.

I am sure that a lot of you who post have never lived here, or never been in contact with the poorer population.

I was with a Thai girl one evening recently in a well-known backpacker area seeing young western girls and guys acting openly like sluts and trying to pick one another up for the night -as 'respectable' single Western people do of course... and then sleep with a different one the next night.

She watched for a while, and then turned to me and said, "Thai people think farang are crazy how they have free sex like this. In my country this doesn't happen. They act like animals."

It generally doesn't either - middle/ higher class Thais excepted. The girls know they have a saleable commodity and they use it. It is suggested that only about 5% of prostitution in Thailand is with sex tourists, the rest is domestic, in the uncountable 'karaoke' bars and 'special massage' parlours etc around the country. Many University girls go out at night to get a bit of extra money and generally won't go home with a guy from a night club without agreeing on a price. Both of her sisters are bargirls and prefer that way of life - it is easier money than earning 5000 baht a month as a maid, and pays for the kids their Thai boyfriends have left them with. No wonder they don't believe in 'free sex'.

But we are never going to convince the cyber armchair white knights in the West who invade these forums with their wealth of experience and knowledge, are we??? And of course he was an 'older' gay man who prefer men who were younger than him... So what...?

So you know everything and got in contact with the poorer population and watched some western backpacker sluts while having a meaningful conversation with a Thai prostitute and now what?

Prostitutes probably don't care if their customers are retired teachers, popular choirmaster or if they are bricklayer or salesmen if they are loved and respected at home or in the expat community or if nobody knows them, if they are from Britain or from Sweden. Nothing makes them special, they are just another customers in the eyes of the prostitutes. They buy sex for money. thats all.

Just as I said, you have no idea. You just called my girlfriend a prostitute. Did I say that I paid her for her company? You are not even a good reader. Nothing makes the white girl special in a British or Swedish nightclub either, only her sexual commodity. Go back to your white bread world and feel good about yourself.

[SerpentSea]

I will not judge if its inappropriate to take a couple of young prostitutes back home, but that is definitely the lifestyle that leaded to this fatal end.

They murdered a 56 years old 'john' from England who came to Thailand and liked to rent young hill-tribe boys for cheap money. For them he wasn't that respected teacher and popular composer but just another customer who called them dirty.

Of course no reason or excuse to murder him, but if it doesn't matter and makes no difference to look at the circumstances under that young boys live and if they were prostitutes by choice or out of desperation or what ever, then all the tales about the 'public', the 'official' face of the victim and how respected he was in the expatriate community away from the red light bars have definitely nothing to do with it.

I am sure that a lot of you who post have never lived here, or never been in contact with the poorer population.

I was with a Thai girl one evening recently in a well-known backpacker area seeing young western girls and guys acting openly like sluts and trying to pick one another up for the night -as 'respectable' single Western people do of course... and then sleep with a different one the next night.

She watched for a while, and then turned to me and said, "Thai people think farang are crazy how they have free sex like this. In my country this doesn't happen. They act like animals."

It generally doesn't either - middle/ higher class Thais excepted. The girls know they have a saleable commodity and they use it. It is suggested that only about 5% of prostitution in Thailand is with sex tourists, the rest is domestic, in the uncountable 'karaoke' bars and 'special massage' parlours etc around the country. Many University girls go out at night to get a bit of extra money and generally won't go home with a guy from a night club without agreeing on a price. Both of her sisters are bargirls and prefer that way of life - it is easier money than earning 5000 baht a month as a maid, and pays for the kids their Thai boyfriends have left them with. No wonder they don't believe in 'free sex'.

But we are never going to convince the cyber armchair white knights in the West who invade these forums with their wealth of experience and knowledge, are we??? And of course he was an 'older' gay man who prefer men who were younger than him... So what...?

So you know everything and got in contact with the poorer population and watched some western backpacker sluts while having a meaningful conversation with a Thai prostitute and now what?

Prostitutes probably don't care if their customers are retired teachers, popular choirmaster or if they are bricklayer or salesmen if they are loved and respected at home or in the expat community or if nobody knows them, if they are from Britain or from Sweden. Nothing makes them special, they are just another customers in the eyes of the prostitutes. They buy sex for money. thats all.

Just as I said, you have no idea. You just called my girlfriend a prostitute. Did I say that I paid her for her company? You are not even a good reader. Nothing makes the white girl special in a British or Swedish nightclub either, only her sexual commodity. Go back to your white bread world and feel good about yourself.

You just explained that prostitution is in Thailand totally normal and many girls would doing it, even the ones from the university. no free sex, asking for money first. according to you.

Okay no problem with that, I will not judge it nor did i say that there is something wrong with that or something amorally. I don't disrespect prostitutes because their trade. You called other sluts for not doing so. Except your girlfriend of course.

Your comment sounds like the standard defense line of advanced western sex tourists (who still feel little bit guilty about it or think they have at least to defend it with some arguments). All in Thailand doing it and the foreign trade is only 5% and 95% is domestic.

I don't care about issues here. I didn't call it inappropriate or morally wrong or whatever. Nor i am a western white knight, i am not even from the west. I don't know why you attacking me here as an cyber armchair who knows nothing. You have probably reading difficulties yourself.

Edited February 7, 2011 by SerpentSea

[csolgosz]

"I will not judge if its inappropriate to take a couple of young prostitutes back home, but that is definitely the lifestyle that leaded to this fatal end. "

"They murdered a 56 years old 'john' from England who came to Thailand and liked to rent young hill-tribe boys for cheap money."

"... if they were prostitutes... the 'official' face of the victim and how respected he was in the expatriate community...have definitely nothing to do with it."

"I don't care about issues here."

"I didn't call it inappropriate or morally wrong or whatever."

Enough said. Under the guise of a non-judgemental person who just needs to have his futile say, you do just what you claim you are not intending to do. Your own words condemn you. The fact that you don't have enough balls to condemn the victim outright makes it easier to sit on the fence.

For your information, I am not one of those "advanced western sex tourists" that you seem to be preoccupied with, I have worked here for years dealing with people in situations of poverty and homelessness. I don't care for your self-righteous utterances at all. I leave it to others to judge the motives of your innocent rant if they will.

[Jingthing]

There's a subtext here that's obvious to me, anyway. To many people, they can't help themselves, they feel deep down that being gay is immoral and they aren't capable of ever feeling differently. Maybe they would be more OK with "A" gay type gay men who live in Boston married to the same man for 20 years, age appropriate of course (gag me with a spoon), with professional jobs, own a large house, have adopted children (girls only please) and vote for the right wing party, or maybe they wouldn't be more OK with that. Gay men who are healthy have sex drives and often more importantly they have emotional drives, let me check, to the SAME sex. Older gay men EXACTLY LIKE older straight man have a strong tendency to have an attraction to partners younger than themselves. I think most men are wired that way. That doesn't mean all men go that route, but in Thailand, it is certainly easily possible, and the evidence is there for your curious eyes, again, ALL men. What percentage of single westerners in Thailand, gay or straight, who are age 55 pick men or women who are also 55? Not many at all, case closed. Most gay men are not "A" gays. Most straights are not "A" straights either. The victim has nothing to be ashamed of, if he was still alive. The overt and not so overt dissing of this murder victim reminds me of people who blame woman rape victims who were dressed too suggestively and walked in the wrong neighborhood at night. They were asking for it, right. NO THEY WERE NOT!

The risk he took, with multiple men living in his house. Would you take that risk, would I take that risk? Probably not. But you have no idea what was in his heart when he did take that risk. There very well may have been a charitable aspect to it, no, I am not saying innocent, I am saying charitable. I don't know, and you don't know, but in any case it is irrelevant to the guilt of the murderer(s).

Edited February 7, 2011 by Jingthing

[endure]

I have just finished reading the posts on here ,and to think at the begining i was banned for a day for saying things much less contraversial ,but i will say again leaving out the rest that i feel it was a little inapropriate for a 53 year old teacher to have 3 young male prostitutes living with him . This does not excuse the brutal murder . its just that when we first came to live in Pattaya some years ago almost the same thing happened close to where we lived .an older male gentelman had two young rent boys living with him ,he was also killed.

I will not judge if its inappropriate to take a couple of young prostitutes back home, but that is definitely the lifestyle that leaded to this fatal end.

They murdered a 56 years old 'john' from England who came to Thailand and liked to rent young hill-tribe boys for cheap money. For them he wasn't that respected teacher and popular composer but just another customer who called them dirty.

Of course no reason or excuse to murder him, but if it doesn't matter and makes no difference to look at the circumstances under that young boys live and if they were prostitutes by choice or out of desperation or what ever, then all the tales about the 'public', the 'official' face of the victim and how respected he was in the expatriate community away from the red light bars have definitely nothing to do with it.

How old does someone have to be before they stop being a 'young boy'? These were grown men. Your use of the words 'young boy' just shows your agenda.

[Chopperboy]

Another thing that should be pointed out is that Thai Hilltribes can and do work. Depending on their ID they apply for a work permit, the work permit application is much simpler than for a ferang or immigrant. My understanding, from friends at the time, was that David encouraged them to find work and even found one a job in a motorcycle repair shop. The murderer clearly has psychiatric problems, and rather than sully David's memory, that should be where its left.

[Jingthing]

Good information, Chopperboy. Again, knowing nothing specific about the murder victim, it is quite common for older gay men to sincerely (believe it or not) want to help young men who are hurting for a variety of emotional reasons. Sometimes it is called the social worker syndrome, trying to "save" someone. It could be a way of expressing unused paternal/maternal impulses. The recipients of this "social work" are usually younger men, so I am not saying that is usually the only part of it, as attraction likely encourages the impulse to help. To be clear, no I am not saying a cold cash client of a male prostitute is helping or acting the social worker, but I am saying a man who gets involved in a troubled young man's life, offering housing, and trying to mentor, is acting that role. I am not suggesting it is a wise thing to do, to play social worker, but I am saying it is common. In my life experience, even more common among gay male TEACHERS.

Edited February 8, 2011 by Jingthing

[SerpentSea]

I will not judge if its inappropriate to take a couple of young prostitutes back home, but that is definitely the lifestyle that leaded to this fatal end.

They murdered a 56 years old 'john' from England who came to Thailand and liked to rent young hill-tribe boys for cheap money. For them he wasn't that respected teacher and popular composer but just another customer who called them dirty.

Of course no reason or excuse to murder him, but if it doesn't matter and makes no difference to look at the circumstances under that young boys live and if they were prostitutes by choice or out of desperation or what ever, then all the tales about the 'public', the 'official' face of the victim and how respected he was in the expatriate community away from the red light bars have definitely nothing to do with it.

How old does someone have to be before they stop being a 'young boy'? These were grown men. Your use of the words 'young boy' just shows your agenda.

what is my "agenda"?

please consider the "definition" of "boys" given below:

So, you discuss women and men but when it comes to your Thai partner, he is a "Thai boy."

Why?

Because the use of the word 'boy' is common usage to describe Thai males between the age of about 16 and 30. The Thai word is 'noom'.

[Jingthing]

SS, you said young boy. Big diff. Don't bother further defense, you've been busted.

Edited February 8, 2011 by Jingthing

[inmysights]

Left out of this sad tale is some actual background on Awe Ye Ping. Ok, so he was 22 years old and the 56 year old deceased would take regularly select him for sexual activity. There is a brief mention of the condemned young man's drug use. But, there is nothing about this kid as a human being. Doesn't anyone want to know why a kid could be driven to a murder like this, why he had no problem killing someone? Is it more convenient to believe that it was because of some dirty dishes?

What's missing from this story and a few of the other news items is more detail about the condemned and the two other young male prostitutes. No mention of the influence of years of abuse and exploitation. These 3 young men were impoverished, uneducated and in the case of one, a drug addict and were working as prostitutes. When young people are exploited and abused is it any wonder why they don't place a value on life? Years of being exploited usually lead to a manifestation of violence. These 3 young men are the face of prostitution in Thailand. I suppose that's too unpleasant for some to consider. Instead, we get a story that's politically correct.

I will get slammed for being insensitive and cruel. However, am I to believe that the deceased was motivated by altruistic concern for these 3 young men? Or, is the truth of the story that this was just another foreigner in Thailand taking advantage of destitute refugees that picked the boy who's psyche had reached the point of no return? Mr. Crisp chose to take advantage of vulnerable young men and he paid the price.

It is unfortunate that Mr. Crisp died, but one thing is certain. Mr. Crisp won't be exploiting marginalized destitute refugees anymore.Yea, yea, I'm so insensitive.

I'm sorry, I've seen some of these kids and so many of them are seriously screwed up courtesy of the sex trade and foreigners that have a wonderful public personna, but are evil incarnate when out of sight.

I'm with you on this one GK. No one ever looks at the bigger picture here. Most of them are too bloody blinkered and stupid. That's why we always get posted snippets from The Mail/Sun and why the Express is so popular here.

I wonder if the 'Hang 'em High' brigade would be so incensed if it were a middle aged woman/female prostitutes? Thought not.

[SerpentSea]

Good information, Chopperboy. Again, knowing nothing anything specific about the murder victim, it is quite common for older gay men to sincerely (believe it or not) want to help young men who are hurting for a variety of emotional reasons. Sometimes it is called the social worker syndrome, trying to "save" someone. It could be a way of expressing unused paternal/maternal impulses. The recipients of this "social work" are usually younger men, so I am not saying that is usually the only part of it, as attraction likely encourages the impulse to help. To be clear, no I am not saying a cold cash client of a male prostitute is helping or acting the social worker, but I am saying a man who gets involved in a troubled young man's life, offering housing, and trying to mentor, is acting that role. I am not suggesting it is a wise thing to do, to play social worker, but I am saying it is common.

I don't think a customer - prostitute relation can be describes as 'social work' just because the is a significant age gap between them.

It's maybe a common misconception how the customers see themselves and not only common in the gay scene, many straight 'johns' would probably argue the same. but actually it is far from any kind of 'social work' in the sense how legit social worker would define 'social work'.

I guess is some sense of feeling morally guilty that consumers of prostitution tend to redefine their activities. some kind of white knight syndrome of helping prostitutes out of their "misery".

But either you see prostitution ...

- as something totally normal, as an act between consent adults (excluding child prostititution or forced prostitution of course) and nobody have to feel shame not the prostitutes nor their customers for their activities

- or you define prostitution as morally wrong and prostitutes as victims of exploitation or as deviant 'lifestyle' of someone who stray from the right path even if consent adults are involved.

You cannot have a little bit of both, it doesn't sound that believable. And all that gogo-bars, straight or gay, in Thailand that cater for tourists or the falang scene are not filled up with older social workers who were brought there by their paternal/maternal impulses.

Get real.

Edited February 8, 2011 by SerpentSea

[Nonsi]

What's all this fuss about ?

Gay or not, for a 55 year old wealthy guy it is obviously a stupidly dangerous thing to do to let three young males live under the same roof with him he became acquainted with in the bar scene. This is like asking for troubles.

Btw, I also don't know that many straight farang guys living together with three Thai female prostitutes under the same roof ...

[Jingthing]

It may have been stupidly dangerous, I will give you that, but that doesn't mean he was asking to be murdered, or that the murderers deserve any special sympathy.

As far as gay vs. straight, I don't think it's uncommon for straight men to try to save a girl from the bar life either. No comment on the multiple people in the house; as many know the locals here are used to living in groups.

Edited February 8, 2011 by Jingthing

[SerpentSea]

SS, you said young boy. Big diff. Don't bother further defense, you've been busted.

Busted of what?

You cannot deny that there was a significant age gap between them. For 56 old, 22 olds are young or how you would call it. for teddy bear endure 30 years old men are boys.

So what is your issue?

[Orac]

What's all this fuss about ?

Gay or not, for a 55 year old wealthy guy it is obviously a stupidly dangerous thing to do to let three young males live under the same roof with him he became acquainted with in the bar scene. This is like asking for troubles.

Btw, I also don't know that many straight farang guys living together with three Thai female prostitutes under the same roof ...

Careful there - you have just given Marky45 an excuse to tell us about the 10 bar girls he used to live with again

[Jingthing]

SS, you said young boy. Big diff. Don't bother further defense, you've been busted.

Busted of what?

You cannot deny that there was a significant age gap between them. For 56 old, 22 olds are young or how you would call it. for teddy bear endure 30 years old men are boys.

So what is your issue?

It's your issue. By using the phrase young boy you clearly are throwing pedophilia dirt on the case, where NONE exists. Give it up.

[Nonsi]

JT, of course the murderers don't deserve any sympathy but that's not my point. I always thought TV is about to teach their members how to avoid getting into such troubles.

I think it's very common for straight farang men to try to save a girl from the bar life. Why would so many marry them otherwise ? But I do not know so many straight farang men trying to save and intercourse with three bar girls under the same roof at the same time ...

Regarding the locals here, well, they get away with many things we farang wouldn't.

[Jingthing]

I seriously doubt very many people here wouldn't consider that inviting either one or ten rough life locals of any gender (for a quickie or to set up housekeeping) into their home doesn't carry some risks (and that the more people, the more risk). I am confident the murder victim in this case was aware there were risks as well, but in a legal sense, it makes no difference. Thai wives here sometimes feed their husbands to the pigs, does that mean foreign men should never marry a Thai woman or that the farang marrying the murderous woman (who often have large families surrounding them, many more than three people) doesn't deserve our sympathy?

Edited February 8, 2011 by Jingthing

[Nonsi]

JT, I believe that a farang guy being married with three Thai women at the same time might be at some risk ...

Anyway, to much off topic now.

[Jingthing]

JT, I believe that a farang guy being married with three Thai women at the same time might be at some risk ...

Anyway, to much off topic now.

Gay people can't marry in Thailand. Gay and straights have many differences, but I can assure you one thing we have in common is the usual desire not to be murdered. It's actually not that far off topic, because as I stated here before, the subtext of SOME of these clucks clucks about the victim can be traced to simple garden variety homophobia.

Edited February 8, 2011 by Jingthing

[Nonsi]

JT, fair enough, no pompem

[SerpentSea]

SS, you said young boy. Big diff. Don't bother further defense, you've been busted.

Busted of what?

You cannot deny that there was a significant age gap between them. For 56 old, 22 olds are young or how you would call it. for teddy bear endure 30 years old men are boys.

So what is your issue?

It's your issue. By using the phrase young boy you clearly are throwing pedophilia dirt on the case, where NONE exists. Give it up.

Paranoia much?

Isn't according to you such age gap relation the most normal thing of the world? Terms like "young" and "boys" or "girls" are freely used across the board without raising much suspicion or if that is the case - suspicion - the usage is defended by yourself or endure as shown.

[Jingthing]

I don't think this topic is about intergenerational consensual relations between adults of legal age. They are certainly common enough to be in the range of normal and in Thailand you might say they are the going thing. Respectable to the bougeoise? Probably not for those who care. Like I said before, most expat men over 50 regardless of orientation who are looking for Thai companionship are not looking for fellow 50 years olds, now are they?

Edited February 8, 2011 by Jingthing

[Wallaby]

There are multiple foreign organizations in Thailand that provide education, health services and skills training.

You have effectively said earlier said that these hill tribe people are basically treated like dirt, can't work, are taken advantage of etc. Now you say there are multiple organisations that can assist them.

The guy was murdered, I have no sympathy for the perpetrator(s). This certainly does not seem a case where there can be mitigating factors to consider.

Ulysees, this may come as a shock to you but I agree with every one of your posts on this.

[TAWP]

It doesn't matter if he forced the men to pay their rent in favors - they had the option to move. Any and all arrangement was most likely agreed upon beforehand. What we are seeing here is just people trying to justify their bias to attack the victim of a murder.

[Thongkorn]

Left out of this sad tale is some actual background on Awe Ye Ping. Ok, so he was 22 years old and the 56 year old deceased would take regularly select him for sexual activity. There is a brief mention of the condemned young man's drug use. But, there is nothing about this kid as a human being. Doesn't anyone want to know why a kid could be driven to a murder like this, why he had no problem killing someone? Is it more convenient to believe that it was because of some dirty dishes?

What's missing from this story and a few of the other news items is more detail about the condemned and the two other young male prostitutes. No mention of the influence of years of abuse and exploitation. These 3 young men were impoverished, uneducated and in the case of one, a drug addict and were working as prostitutes. When young people are exploited and abused is it any wonder why they don't place a value on life? Years of being exploited usually lead to a manifestation of violence. These 3 young men are the face of prostitution in Thailand. I suppose that's too unpleasant for some to consider. Instead, we get a story that's politically correct.

I will get slammed for being insensitive and cruel. However, am I to believe that the deceased was motivated by altruistic concern for these 3 young men? Or, is the truth of the story that this was just another foreigner in Thailand taking advantage of destitute refugees that picked the boy who's psyche had reached the point of no return? Mr. Crisp chose to take advantage of vulnerable young men and he paid the price.

It is unfortunate that Mr. Crisp died, but one thing is certain. Mr. Crisp won't be exploiting marginalized destitute refugees anymore.Yea, yea, I'm so insensitive.

I'm sorry, I've seen some of these kids and so many of them are seriously screwed up courtesy of the sex trade and foreigners that have a wonderful public personna, but are evil incarnate when out of sight.

Yes it could of being dirty dishes, Asians make a big deal about saving face! On the other hand there is very little help for the mentaly ill in Thailand, and of course being a prostitute is a choice!

I totaly agree with geriatrickid, What choice do you have when you know nothing and have nothing , you live or you die, the only thing you have to sell is your body, So wheres the choice in that. Some deluded people think prostitutes/bar girls/gays are all sex maniacs, because its easier to think that, so they can have there own self gratification.

[Ulysses G.]

Btw, I also don't know that many straight farang guys living together with three Thai female prostitutes under the same roof ...

That is a lot more due to being extremely frugal than any sense of morality.

[flybynight2k1]

SS, I totally agreed with Jingthing, he described properly a possible, high likely situation about Mr.Crisp behavior and feelings toward the 3 guys. You're trying to win your verbal dispute with him, climbing on the mirror. Come on, give up.

[Chopperboy]

Speaking to the working boys then and now who knew David they speak highly of him, describing him as very likeable, kind and "good hearted" - not a description reserved for their treatment during the investigation. That not withstanding, their resentment and disgust is directed squarely at the Akha boy.

[SerpentSea]

Speaking to the working boys then and now who knew David they speak highly of him, describing him as very likeable, kind and "good hearted" - not a description reserved for their treatment during the investigation. That not withstanding, their resentment and disgust is directed squarely at the Akha boy.

They probably also call him handsome and you handsome too. Thats how prostitutes talk to their customers. Tell them what they wanted to hear.