13 Girls Rescued From Prostitution After Raid On Karaoke Bar In Chiang Mai's Muang District

[Nisa]

While a UN report found that about half the working girls were underage combined with Thailand's own Health System research that found underage girls make up 40% of prostitutes in Thailand ... I guess for some reason it would be logical for you to believe the majority of Thai prostitutes were not abused as children.

Interesting that some posters here who want to deny such obvious facts as child sexual abuse being directly related to prostitution will go on other threads and talk about how common it is for Thai girls to be raped by people within their own Thai family.

You thrive and really believe all the statistics you conjour up are true. I would definatly say that MAJORITYof thai promiscuous-girls are NOT abused as children, but many are yes. Prostitution in Thailand as it IS illegal. (and I did read your Thai law snip) which is a bit vague. 40 percent underage-rubbish. YOUR stat facts NOT actual facts. Very few posters deny that children are abused/raped -it is a known fact that it happens often--Your stats and belief imply that most are abused--again get hold of yourself and give yourself a shake. please dont push on statistics to all posters, very few want them, most posters tell of personal observations. They enjoy this part of forum. We all can go to google, but wouln,t forum be Boring if we all did the same as you--BUT i agree that occasionally we can be guided by stats.

LOL, yes let us ignore facts when debating if an issue is true or not ... well I guess it is okay "occasionally" assuming they don't go against your position.

Nisa -you are not very good at listening to true feelings, NO do not ignore facts, but not stats from google all the time, reality is my aim, my position is about the average punter/poster, I can feel and learn from my and other posters comments and learn. I have an open mind in life, and do not have the same stance as yours -thankfully, if you read the replies to your posts dont you get the feeling that you are not being agreed with ???? doesn't it make you wonder. so again to answer-I enjoy the differences of posters comments. yours are a contribution BUT-re read, and feel for the thread-and put the book down

Should I send you a link to a physical encyclopedia? And as far as I can tell that the UN and the Thai Health Department(s) are NOT Google. People can argue all they want with me as well as find ways to justify underage girls in the sex trade here but that doesn't make them right. When it comes to things such as a history of abuse of sex trade workers I am going to believe the facts and statistics provided by government and/or recognized sources as well as my past experience working with in the mental health industry working with abused children and prostitutes as opposed to frequenters of places of prostitution who claim to be there to talk to the girls but not have sex with them or even buy them drinks.

[Ricardo]

THEREFORE, I stand by all my posts and do in fact put moral responsibility back onto the "farang" sex tourists. Even though I have also seen arguments that this was a 100% Thai based establishment, the gogo strips in Pattaya, Phuket, Bangkok, Chiang Mai, and the entire island of Koh Samui are indeed 99% "farang" based with all the same abuses seen in Thai establishments.

So none of those establishments to which you refer cater for Indians or Arabs or Chinese ? I think you're using "farangs" when you ought rather to be saying sex-tourists of all nationalities/ethnic-origins. :jap:

You might also learn from visiting Hat-Yai, where very few farang sex-tourists ever go, but there is a lively sex-trade catering to the Singaporean/Malysian week-end tourists. The girls are IME largely Burmese or from the north-west, not Isaan as in Pattaya/Bangkok, by the way. And I visit Hat-Yai because I have family there, before you ask.

The particular karaoke-bar which was raided is of course not in Chiang Mai's small gogo/bar-strip for farangs/tourists, but in a very-poor/overcrowded residential-area for legal/illegal Burmese-workers, a very-depressing place. Most local farangs wish the police would also raid the neighbouring dozen-or-so similar establishments, as we don't condone indentured-labour or slavery like this, one can only speculate as to why they ignore their existence.

Many farang mongers seem to me to be fairly-moral people, going by another web-site I sometimes view, they do not condone under-age sex or forced-prostitution, but view consenting-adult activities as being the private business of the adults concerned. And I wouldn't necessarily agree that the farang-tourist places, in the towns you list, have "all the same abuses seen in Thai establishments", as you argue.

[Spee]

Anyone involved in the abuse and maltreatment of children should be given the harshest of legal and societal discipline.

These women came from an area where women get married at 12. Maybe you should try changing their customs.

We're not talking about societal customs and norms for marriage, Mark. Obviously that is what it is. Fourteen year olds get married in many countries around the world.

Selling children for any amount of money knowing full well that they will be mentally and physically abused and put into the sex trade, is wrong wrong wrong, regardless of the country or societal marriage customs.

[slapout]

I am amused/skeptical of statistics put out by a government or individuals, who list traffic deaths in numbers that may vary by 20% +_, deaths attributed to cold weather, AIDS, alcohol consumption, illegal workers, murder, suicide, etc, with similar error fluctuation.

Then for the TV members to argue about what descriptive term (most, some, majority, minority) best describes the number of those in the sex industry and what brought them to this occupation, seem to be following the government employees inclination for personal opinion.

What standard do we compare prostitutes to? Those of the beggar, pickpocket, petty thief, hit man, drug pusher, scam artists, etc, as they make their way in life???

We hear about the abuse of prostitutes, farm labor, domestic help, indigenous tribes, retirees whose pension funds were lost/stolen, etc.

Thankfully the abused and those that abuse them, seem to be in the minority and apparently are a part of society, until that seemly unattainable level of economic/social equality, which so many advocate, is attained.

[61guitarman61]

The idea that menial jobs are undesirable and do not pay well, therefore taking a job as a prostitute is the logical choice, is rediculous. In fact, the people who are doing those jobs, at home in the west or here in Thailand, are the ones I applaud because they hold a higher standard for themselves and will not sacrifice their own dignity and self worth by succoming to the temptation of making fast easy money at the cost of their own "souls", for lack of a better term.

"Hold a higher standard"

Who says using your **** to earn money is worse that using your hands to earn money or your brain to earn money?

Who gets to decide that people working selling sex have no dignity but someone working as a toilet cleaner has dignity?

You do!

OK that must be right then.

I find it interesting how westerners afford themselves the luxury of taking all that western society stands for and throwing it out the window when it serves their purpose. If Thailand allows 15 year old girls to service men for money then it's OK for a western man, coming from a society that puts men in jail for even having "innapropriate contact" with a 15 year old girl, to have intercourse with a child. So, what you're saying then, is that morals are directly related to location. When in Thailand the morals automatically are adjusted to Thai moral standards. In other words, you have no moral compass of your own, only basist human lusts which you travelled to the other side of the planet to satisfy having found a place where they allow you to do what you are not allowed to do elsewhere.

[61guitarman61]

THEREFORE, I stand by all my posts and do in fact put moral responsibility back onto the "farang" sex tourists. Even though I have also seen arguments that this was a 100% Thai based establishment, the gogo strips in Pattaya, Phuket, Bangkok, Chiang Mai, and the entire island of Koh Samui are indeed 99% "farang" based with all the same abuses seen in Thai establishments.

So none of those establishments to which you refer cater for Indians or Arabs or Chinese ? I think you're using "farangs" when you ought rather to be saying sex-tourists of all nationalities/ethnic-origins. :jap:

You might also learn from visiting Hat-Yai, where very few farang sex-tourists ever go, but there is a lively sex-trade catering to the Singaporean/Malysian week-end tourists. The girls are IME largely Burmese or from the north-west, not Isaan as in Pattaya/Bangkok, by the way. And I visit Hat-Yai because I have family there, before you ask.

The particular karaoke-bar which was raided is of course not in Chiang Mai's small gogo/bar-strip for farangs/tourists, but in a very-poor/overcrowded residential-area for legal/illegal Burmese-workers, a very-depressing place. Most local farangs wish the police would also raid the neighbouring dozen-or-so similar establishments, as we don't condone indentured-labour or slavery like this, one can only speculate as to why they ignore their existence.

Many farang mongers seem to me to be fairly-moral people, going by another web-site I sometimes view, they do not condone under-age sex or forced-prostitution, but view consenting-adult activities as being the private business of the adults concerned. And I wouldn't necessarily agree that the farang-tourist places, in the towns you list, have "all the same abuses seen in Thai establishments", as you argue.

Money, regardless of origin, all spends the same. Yes, there are Asians from outside Thailand who partake of the cornicopia of sexy for-pay servicers here in Thailand. And you seem to draw from what I have said that this is an all western issue. It is not. I DO, however, still maintain that our own morals, from wherever each individual comes from, SHOULD follow them wherever they go on this planet. In my first post on this topic, I talked about my experience in Koh Samui. At the square I talked about, I saw one girl in particular who appeared to be no more than 14 or 15. Perhaps she was in fact older but I really doubt it. There ARE, by western standards, underage girls at EVERY establishment that sells intercourse. As for condoning underage sex, unless that individual is looking for a mass of posters to rail upon him for such an admission, no one is going to admit to having sex with children. Those who, in the words of Shakespeare, "protest too much", would be the likely patrons who speak what is expected by western moral standards when talking in a forum such as this one, only to then go out in the privacy of their own little universe to find a cute little "whatever" age girl to have his delites with. As with any issue or circumstance, there are the extremes and perhaps the extremes in this issue would indeed be from the Thais themselves. But that should not put our own moral compass to rest, knowing there are worse than us. Especially since we westerners are NOT indigenous and should still be following our moralities that we were raised with.

[Nisa]

As with any issue or circumstance, there are the extremes and perhaps the extremes in this issue would indeed be from the Thais themselves. But that should not put our own moral compass to rest, knowing there are worse than us.

[ryladie99]

How is this even news worthy? I was just on Koh Samui for a month. My classmates and I went out on different occasions to Lamai and Chawang for drinks. In Lamai there is a central square of bars around a Thai boxing ring. On any given night there are perhaps 100 girls (and ladyboys), give or take, working at these bars. All of them dressed like hookers and dancing on the poles installed in each tiny open air establishment. Many were open and fairly brazen about what they were there for. I decided to do my own research and bought a drink for the 20ish looking waitress who had been serving us a drinks and said I wanted her to join me for a while. She spoke fairly good English. She went into sales mode instantly but I calmed her anticipated action and said I want to talk for a while first. She was actually 30 and has a 12 year old son and 8 year old daughter back home in Isaan. She had been on Samui for 6 months already and claimed she was saving to go home. (Grain of salt taken) I asked how much to spend the night with her. 300 baht to the bar and 1000 baht to her. I asked how many other girls do I have to choose from. "Any one you see" was the answer. I asked how many were local girls. "Not many" was the answer. I estimate, from what I saw, that besides these 100 or so in this square, there were maybe another 200 in Lamai and the club scene in Chawang having at least that many as well. Point being, how is a bust on one tiny club involving a whopping 13 girls even worth talking about? And as we all know, this does not even represent a real bust. Perhaps the proprietors missed a payment to the local cops or to the local mafia. At any rate, there are thousands of girls across Thailand selling their wares on a daily basis without even feigning discretion due to fear of being caught let alone needing to be "freed" from their "captors". Although many girls would prefer not to be doing this kind of "work", they are certainly not being forced into it. It is relatively easy money and easy to get into. Sympathy? Sympathetic about the whole situation, but these girls are making their own choices.

You seem to have completely missed the point of the story. This bar was not raided because they were provided sexual services, but because they were provided sexual services with underage girls. Buying sex with a thirteen year old who have been sold to the bar by her relatives is hardly the same as paying a thirty year old who is doing it voluntarily (as in your own example).

I have no problem with saex for sale between consenting adults, but I cannot see how anyone can think that coming down on human trafficing and bars/brothels with underage girls is not a god thing. Sure, the police may have alteria motives for selecting this particular bar, but whatever the reason it is still a good thing when something is done.

Sophon

Thanks Sophon for posting about underage girls, plus your opinion hits me hard and it is a big problem in Thailand at this moment. These hilltribe girls should be able to go to school and grow up to be somebody. I do not have any opinion for consenting adults. He or she can sell her aging merchandise since people think this is an easy way to earn a living. No one cares nowsday some college students do sell their sexes to wealthy married men. These women get salary, condo and pocket money so they can spend on designer and luxury goods. They see themselves as a smart Alex to perform sex and get pay at the same time. They would not benefit from their young classmates when they have relationship with. Talking about Thai men now they do not have many affairs because they fear of Aids and remember one town in Chiang Mai does not have any men, they all dead from Aids in the past. Thai women are getting smart, they walk away from the marriage and they know now that many Farangs want to marry them because, they are good partners and seldom demand for equality. My take and opinion.

[Emster23]

I would like to see these so familiar stories post pictures of the scum bag bosses rather than the troops in the trenches.....

[ryladie99]

Anyone involved in the abuse and maltreatment of children should be given the harshest of legal and societal discipline.

These women came from an area where women get married at 12. Maybe you should try changing their customs.

We're not talking about societal customs and norms for marriage, Mark. Obviously that is what it is. Fourteen year olds get married in many countries around the world.

Selling children for any amount of money knowing full well that they will be mentally and physically abused and put into the sex trade, is wrong wrong wrong, regardless of the country or societal marriage customs.

Wow Spee, I like your post and you state it so well. Awesome....thanks.

[61guitarman61]

You seem to have completely missed the point of the story. This bar was not raided because they were provided sexual services, but because they were provided sexual services with underage girls. Buying sex with a thirteen year old who have been sold to the bar by her relatives is hardly the same as paying a thirty year old who is doing it voluntarily (as in your own example).

I have no problem with saex for sale between consenting adults, but I cannot see how anyone can think that coming down on human trafficing and bars/brothels with underage girls is not a god thing. Sure, the police may have alteria motives for selecting this particular bar, but whatever the reason it is still a good thing when something is done.

Sophon

I think coming down on human trafficking is great. I think it is great that these underage girls being taken out of that circumstance. News worthy to me would be an entire syndicate brought down and all of the slaves of that organization set free. I would consider it news worthy if an entire gogo street were raided and all those, either victims or perps, dealt with. This story is more like praising someone for plugging one hole in a sieve while watching the flow of water leak out at the same rate it was before the one hole was plugged. 13 lives potentially changed - wonderful! Now, what about the other 13,000? Good PR. Thats all.

Edited February 18, 2011 by 61guitarman61

[Nisa]

Anyone involved in the abuse and maltreatment of children should be given the harshest of legal and societal discipline.

These women came from an area where women get married at 12. Maybe you should try changing their customs.

We're not talking about societal customs and norms for marriage, Mark. Obviously that is what it is. Fourteen year olds get married in many countries around the world.

Selling children for any amount of money knowing full well that they will be mentally and physically abused and put into the sex trade, is wrong wrong wrong, regardless of the country or societal marriage customs.

I also don't see a coloration between age of marriage and it being a cause child sex abuse. There are many states in the US where it is legal for kids (13 through 18) to get married and I have never heard of any credible evidence blaming this for child abuse or sex slavery. I'm sure there are places in Thailand (as many places) where children are forced into fake marriages below the legal age (which I believe is 20 in Thailand without parental consent and 17 with) but imo when you have children marrying adults, as opposed to a young girl getting knocked up by a peer, it is more indicative of an approval of child abuse as opposed to it causing child abuse in a society or group.

[corkman]

<br />

<br />I have been in thailand both as a tourist and an expat for over 10 yrs, and there is no doubt in my mind that the girls in bars which service farangs are actually quite happy to be there particularly in tourist areas. I was in one such beer-bar last night (drinking only) and all the girls was laughing and giggling, and dancing around. Sure they are pro's and so a lot of that is an act, but I am very good at spotting human behaviour etc. And there was no cracks in their act.... Thay really were having fun (without a client in sight). Now go into Robinsons where have the staff are uni-grads and see can you spot a single one smiling? The miserable sods! Now I am not saying that all girls should grow up, be a prostitute, and hence be happy.... But what I am saying is that it is not as bad as some would have us believe, and they are there by choice and preference! Our western values base simply does not let most farangs accept that.<br />

<br /><br />I've been to numerous jails and prisons and watched inmates laugh, joke, sing, play sports (sort of) and I can assure you the overwhelming vast majority of them didn't want to be there and trust me, prison is much worse than most people want to believe. It is no different in prostitution and regardless of how many people want to tell you differently these girls are still looked down on by Thais and few Thais would ever knowingly marry a girl who has been in the business. In fact if you ask many Thai males something they find odd about farangs it is that we allow ourselves to be seen in public with prostitutes. Please do yourself a favor and ask some ex-working girls her or in any country if they enjoyed selling their body to strangers.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

1. The jail reference is a dramatically good one and creates a vivid image, but they are not there by choice.

2. My point was that the girls are there by choice. The notion that they do not have a choice is melodramatic BS. It is simply their best career choice, not their only choice. Millions of Thai's go to work every day doing very hard work for very little money. These girls however have opted to take a different route ( a ) because the money is relatively good and ( b ) because the work is one big party.

3. Yes if you ask any girl that has "escaped" from the game they will be happy to sing a song of their woes (well actually they will make something up to justify it in some way), but the thing is that they did not "escape" they simply got a better offer. If you offer any bar girl a good honest job for even say 15k a month, they will decline it. It is not that they cannot work, they don't want to. And contrary to popular sob-story belief, they are not all single mothers with a mouth to feed.

[Nisa]

<br />

<br />I have been in thailand both as a tourist and an expat for over 10 yrs, and there is no doubt in my mind that the girls in bars which service farangs are actually quite happy to be there particularly in tourist areas. I was in one such beer-bar last night (drinking only) and all the girls was laughing and giggling, and dancing around. Sure they are pro's and so a lot of that is an act, but I am very good at spotting human behaviour etc. And there was no cracks in their act.... Thay really were having fun (without a client in sight). Now go into Robinsons where have the staff are uni-grads and see can you spot a single one smiling? The miserable sods! Now I am not saying that all girls should grow up, be a prostitute, and hence be happy.... But what I am saying is that it is not as bad as some would have us believe, and they are there by choice and preference! Our western values base simply does not let most farangs accept that.<br />

<br /><br />I've been to numerous jails and prisons and watched inmates laugh, joke, sing, play sports (sort of) and I can assure you the overwhelming vast majority of them didn't want to be there and trust me, prison is much worse than most people want to believe. It is no different in prostitution and regardless of how many people want to tell you differently these girls are still looked down on by Thais and few Thais would ever knowingly marry a girl who has been in the business. In fact if you ask many Thai males something they find odd about farangs it is that we allow ourselves to be seen in public with prostitutes. Please do yourself a favor and ask some ex-working girls her or in any country if they enjoyed selling their body to strangers.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

1. The jail reference is a dramatically good one and creates a vivid image, but they are not there by choice.

2. My point was that the girls are there by choice. The notion that they do not have a choice is melodramatic BS. It is simply their best career choice, not their only choice. Millions of Thai's go to work every day doing very hard work for very little money. These girls however have opted to take a different route ( a ) because the money is relatively good and ( b ) because the work is one big party.

3. Yes if you ask any girl that has "escaped" from the game they will be happy to sing a song of their woes (well actually they will make something up to justify it in some way), but the thing is that they did not "escape" they simply got a better offer. If you offer any bar girl a good honest job for even say 15k a month, they will decline it. It is not that they cannot work, they don't want to. And contrary to popular sob-story belief, they are not all single mothers with a mouth to feed.

As I stated before .. once these girls get into the sex trade it is VERY difficult to get out of it. I am not going to get into the specifics but it is sort of like being wrapped up into any addictive / destructive behavior. I suggested speaking with an ex-working girl because they now can see more clearly as well as a working girl still working not being likely to admit things to a stranger let alone to themselves about the reality of their current situation.

One also has to ask themselves what makes these girls different from the vast majority of Thai women (or women period) who don't enter the sex trade that offers such fun and easy money. What makes these girls have such low self-esteem for themselves to go into a trade that is considered the lowest of low by normal Thai standards and as one poster who argued with me said a trade where they won't even admit they are prostitutes?

By the way I NEVER said these girls didn't have a choice and unless I missed some posts I don't believe anybody else said they didn't have a choice.

No doubt there are girls in the trade who maybe come from good families with good upbringings but for whatever reason they choose this as a path but this is not the norm and people can site as many personal experiences they have had with bar girls (they never hire) but the fact remains too many studies have been done that tell the real facts for the reasons most girls get into the sex trade. If it makes some people here (not saying you) feel better about using their services then so be it because it seems clear they are not going to accept facts.

One thing I do find interesting is that the majority of posters here who want to indicate these girls are happy and having fun are the ones that seem to go out of their way in their posts to say they don't use their services or were not there to use their services in the examples they use of being around working girls. As one poster likes to say ... I think they "protest too much"

Edit: Thanks for being open minded enough to consider the coloration between jails. I also hear your response as there is a difference but you actually add weight in terms of what I was responding to and that was judging people's happiness with their situation based on their 'appearing" happy.

But to further add to the example not being such a bad one ... Consider most people are in jail because they committed a crime by choice they knew could send them to jail. Also consider that my point was to say neither the girls nor the prisoners want to be in that life (at least my opinion). And finally consider that most people who commit crimes are not sent to prison and it is the ones who have committed numerous crimes that get caught or sentenced to prison. Again I will mention studies because they show that criminals tend to have some of the many of the same traits when it comes to their childhood and abuse or neglect they received. Certainly they made a choice to break the law but there is also certainly a proven link between experiences in childhood and the choices they felt they had. The same is true for most prostitutes. This is certainly not to say that all people abused as children grow up with these kinds of issues but the fact remains that these people with issues share similar experiences as children.

Edited February 18, 2011 by Nisa

[bonobo]

Pattaya has an estimated 20,000 prostitutes. With a population of something a little over 100,000, that gives a rate of 20%. Even given some shaky figures, that far exceeds the 1% as listed above in Amsterdam or Zurich.

Actually most people put the population of Pattaya between 300k and 500k depending on the season. The stat you are quoting are coming from household registration numbers.

I am also curious to where you got the number 20k for number of prostitutes in Pattaya.

According to Wikipedia ...

The 2001 report by the World Health Organisation: "The most reliable suggestion is that there are between 150,000 and 200,000 sex workers."

A recent government survey found that there were 76,000 to 77,000 adult prostitutes in registered entertainment establishments;

the NGOs believed there were between 200,000 and 300,000 prostitutes.

Somehow I don't believe that approx. 10% of prostitutes in Thailand are based in Pattaya ... but I never counted or considered it much before this.

It is a little dated, but http://www.uri.edu/a...es/thailand.htm

Even if the number is grossly exaggerated, though, and even if we take the larger number of 500k, which I think is inflated, there would only be 5,000 prostitutes in Pattaya to reach Amsterdam's ratio. And I think we all can agree that there are more than that.

The actual number is just that, a number. But I just wanted to point out that your contention that there is a higher percentage of prostitutes in Amsterdam and Zurich than are in Bangkok and Pattaya is a little misguided.

You made me break out the calculator to be sure but 10% of 300k is 30,000 and 500k is 50,000

Not to get in the middle of the math, but Lucki is correct here. With:

"... I couldn't find anything doing a quick net search but did find that Zurich and Amsterdam have 11 prostitutes per 1,000 population ... clearly that is higher than BKK or Pattaya. I did however find an interesting article regarding Prostitution and Sex Trafficking in the US that clearly shows it has some of the same problems as Thailand http://www.uri.edu/a.../hughes/usa.htm."

That means roughly 1% of the people in Amsterdam are prostitutes (11 out of 1,000). So if there are 500,000 people in Pattaya, that means if there are more than 5,500 prostitutes, the rate is higher in Pattaya than in Amsterdam.

[Nisa]

Not to get in the middle of the math, but Lucki is correct here. With:

"... I couldn't find anything doing a quick net search but did find that Zurich and Amsterdam have 11 prostitutes per 1,000 population ... clearly that is higher than BKK or Pattaya. I did however find an interesting article regarding Prostitution and Sex Trafficking in the US that clearly shows it has some of the same problems as Thailand http://www.uri.edu/a.../hughes/usa.htm."

That means roughly 1% of the people in Amsterdam are prostitutes (11 out of 1,000). So if there are 500,000 people in Pattaya, that means if there are more than 5,500 prostitutes, the rate is higher in Pattaya than in Amsterdam.

You are absolutely right. I knew there was a reason something wasn't making sense to me ... I knew something was wrong but didn't catch that for some reason I went from 1% to 10% in comparing the figures

[LingLek]

<br />

<br />I have been in thailand both as a tourist and an expat for over 10 yrs, and there is no doubt in my mind that the girls in bars which service farangs are actually quite happy to be there particularly in tourist areas. I was in one such beer-bar last night (drinking only) and all the girls was laughing and giggling, and dancing around. Sure they are pro's and so a lot of that is an act, but I am very good at spotting human behaviour etc. And there was no cracks in their act.... Thay really were having fun (without a client in sight). Now go into Robinsons where have the staff are uni-grads and see can you spot a single one smiling? The miserable sods! Now I am not saying that all girls should grow up, be a prostitute, and hence be happy.... But what I am saying is that it is not as bad as some would have us believe, and they are there by choice and preference! Our western values base simply does not let most farangs accept that.<br />

<br /><br />I've been to numerous jails and prisons and watched inmates laugh, joke, sing, play sports (sort of) and I can assure you the overwhelming vast majority of them didn't want to be there and trust me, prison is much worse than most people want to believe. It is no different in prostitution and regardless of how many people want to tell you differently these girls are still looked down on by Thais and few Thais would ever knowingly marry a girl who has been in the business. In fact if you ask many Thai males something they find odd about farangs it is that we allow ourselves to be seen in public with prostitutes. Please do yourself a favor and ask some ex-working girls her or in any country if they enjoyed selling their body to strangers.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

1. The jail reference is a dramatically good one and creates a vivid image, but they are not there by choice.

2. My point was that the girls are there by choice. The notion that they do not have a choice is melodramatic BS. It is simply their best career choice, not their only choice. Millions of Thai's go to work every day doing very hard work for very little money. These girls however have opted to take a different route ( a ) because the money is relatively good and ( b ) because the work is one big party.

3. Yes if you ask any girl that has "escaped" from the game they will be happy to sing a song of their woes (well actually they will make something up to justify it in some way), but the thing is that they did not "escape" they simply got a better offer. If you offer any bar girl a good honest job for even say 15k a month, they will decline it. It is not that they cannot work, they don't want to. And contrary to popular sob-story belief, they are not all single mothers with a mouth to feed.

As I stated before .. once these girls get into the sex trade it is VERY difficult to get out of it. I am not going to get into the specifics but it is sort of like being wrapped up into any addictive / destructive behavior. I suggested speaking with an ex-working girl because they now can see more clearly as well as a working girl still working not being likely to admit things to a stranger let alone to themselves about the reality of their current situation.

One also has to ask themselves what makes these girls different from the vast majority of Thai women (or women period) who don't enter the sex trade that offers such fun and easy money. What makes these girls have such low self-esteem for themselves to go into a trade that is considered the lowest of low by normal Thai standards and as one poster who argued with me said a trade where they won't even admit they are prostitutes?

By the way I NEVER said these girls didn't have a choice and unless I missed some posts I don't believe anybody else said they didn't have a choice.

No doubt there are girls in the trade who maybe come from good families with good upbringings but for whatever reason they choose this as a path but this is not the norm and people can site as many personal experiences they have had with bar girls (they never hire) but the fact remains too many studies have been done that tell the real facts for the reasons most girls get into the sex trade. If it makes some people here (not saying you) feel better about using their services then so be it because it seems clear they are not going to accept facts.

One thing I do find interesting is that the majority of posters here who want to indicate these girls are happy and having fun are the ones that seem to go out of their way in their posts to say they don't use their services or were not there to use their services in the examples they use of being around working girls. As one poster likes to say ... I think they "protest too much"

Edit: Thanks for being open minded enough to consider the coloration between jails. I also hear your response as there is a difference but you actually add weight in terms of what I was responding to and that was judging people's happiness with their situation based on their 'appearing" happy.

But to further add to the example not being such a bad one ... Consider most people are in jail because they committed a crime by choice they knew could send them to jail. Also consider that my point was to say neither the girls nor the prisoners want to be in that life (at least my opinion). And finally consider that most people who commit crimes are not sent to prison and it is the ones who have committed numerous crimes that get caught or sentenced to prison. Again I will mention studies because they show that criminals tend to have some of the many of the same traits when it comes to their childhood and abuse or neglect they received. Certainly they made a choice to break the law but there is also certainly a proven link between experiences in childhood and the choices they felt they had. The same is true for most prostitutes. This is certainly not to say that all people abused as children grow up with these kinds of issues but the fact remains that these people with issues share similar experiences as children.

Thank you. Very well put and explained.

"Certainly they made a choice to break the law but there is also certainly a proven link between experiences in childhood and the choices they felt they had." This is the crux, and I hope most people bother to read it. I would only add that 'choice' (always a dodgy term) is circumscribed by other environmental factors too: a culture of compliance; the attractions of what one poster negligently calls "easy money" (which only seems "easy," by the way, because the barriers between selling your body and not selling it have broken down or because the person no longer sees her body as private and non-negotiable); lack of opportunity for women of little or no education, etc.

[Antathome]

I have been watching this topic over the last day or so from my mobile phone and hate typing on it so now that I am back on my computer, here we go . I really don't think that any of us are advocating sex with minors. It is abhorent! Even after a few drinks (along time ago in Manila) when I was in a club and was offered a 14yo (she claimed to be 16, but confessed when pressed), I was able to say No. So they offered me a 20yo who was probably 15, but I digress.

Whilst I have only been to Thailand twice on holidays, I have fallen in love with the place and am planning my (and my wife's) retirement there. The number of times over a total of five weeks thatI was offered "special services" by mature Thai women, young Thai women, and the odd ladyboy has convinced me that the situation will only improve when the education of all Thais improve. Education is generally the way out of poverty. I am not going to address the morality of prostitution because whilst I find it sad, I am also not subsisting on less than $A10 a day.

If and only if, the Thai government is interested in improving the lot of the poor, they will provide better education for all (and I am not just talking about academic). Just my two bob's worth.

[IanForbes]

I didn't think that we were ALLOWED to discuss the specifics of Thai prostitution on thaivisa. I guess only CERTAIN people are not allowed to discuss it.

We've got 7 pages here on a subject that I highly doubt any of us condone. I don't know anyone in the circles I travel in that condones adults having sex with children. There are a whole string of Karaoke bars in the area where I live in Chiang Mai. When I walk by every evening for the past 5 years I can count on one hand the number of farangs I've seen in those PFP bars. It is 100% Thai males and the Thai girls who work there. Some of the women even stay in the same hotel as myself. We just nod in passing. There is no way of determining the ages of the Thai women. I've seen 14 year old girls who both look and act like they are in their late twenties. And, by contrast, I know women in their early thirties who look like teenagers.

I hate the practise of indentured girls working off debts caused by they parents, but it's run by local mafia gangs, who in turn pay the local police to look the other way.

[tim armstrong]

The answer to this is better education for women in Thailand. They do most of the work, are smarter,healthier but still ACCEPT their place as second class citizens, and are treated and paid accordingly, irrespective of status, with a few noteable exceptions.

For sure prostitution is the oldest profession, and for sure paedophilia is maybe about the worst crime there is, but none of it will stop while women think they have no other choice,and they do. I can't imagine the emotions and thinking of a couple who have just sold their 12 yr old daughter into sexual slavery., and they are not all poor farmers. Sin Sod can start and does at 13yrs.

[ginjag]

Nisa #151......................You tire people out, 1..Please find on this thread-and send it to me---(you cannot) all the posters that have condoned under age sex.....get YOUR facts right. you dont have just an interest on this subject but an obsession with it, I am really trying to tell you that don't tar most with the same brush, Thai are the majority who abuse not tourists, find that in your stats, I defend myself when you comment on people being less educated. when they dissagree with you, and remarks made to fat smelling farrangs-with Girls. and please as I said before, look up what educated means,,, and tell me. I would rather have a good general knowledge than have a space scientists brain. and if you rely on stats so much-it could prove you are not so well educated. Please can we stay on track with the said subject, and try to come up with the people who may be responsible for putting the minority of girls in these situ's.

[pjclark1]

Should I send you a link to a physical encyclopedia? And as far as I can tell that the UN and the Thai Health Department(s) are NOT Google. People can argue all they want with me as well as find ways to justify underage girls in the sex trade here but that doesn't make them right. When it comes to things such as a history of abuse of sex trade workers I am going to believe the facts and statistics provided by government and/or recognized sources as well as my past experience working with in the mental health industry working with abused children and prostitutes as opposed to frequenters of places of prostitution who claim to be there to talk to the girls but not have sex with them or even buy them drinks.

Why do I frequent places of prostitution?

Because almost every Bar, coffee shop, shopping mall and place where there is any form of entertainment in Thailand has working girls and could be considered a place of prostitution.

If you go out, you will frequent places of prostitution. Big city or small village, it doesn't matter.

Why don't I have sex with the girls?

Because when I am out I usually have my wife with me, she and I chat with the girls (in Thai and English).

Also I am monogamous, I have always found one sexual partner to be enough for me.

Why don't I ever have sex with underage girls?

Because they are far too young for me, and I consider it wrong by my personal standards (I actually prefer women in their early to mid thirties as partners).

And generally, I have found, most white men don't have sex with underage girls.

Many white women also frequent the same places, but strangely don't seem to be able to recognise the working girls for what they are.

Or maybe, they like to go out, and it is easier for them to just pretend all the girls are waitresses, so nobody can accuse them of frequenting places of prostitution.

I once met a female member of this forum in a bar of ill repute with her husband,

"I thought you didn't come to this sort of bar", said I

"Oh no, these girls working here don't do that", she replied,

"this is a decent bar, the owner would never allow that sort of thing to happen here", she cried.

Needless to say, she was totally wrong.

But as I have stated before, but you chose to ignore, underage prostitutes are not aimed at white men, nor are they to be found in bars frequented by white people.

They are for Thais, it is a Thai problem. If you don't speak Thai, you are unlikely to get offered underage girls.

Edited February 18, 2011 by pjclark1

[brahmburgers]

As I stated before .. once these girls get into the sex trade it is VERY difficult to get out of it. I am not going to get into the specifics but it is sort of like being wrapped up into any addictive / destructive behavior. I suggested speaking with an ex-working girl because they now can see more clearly as well as a working girl still working not being likely to admit things to a stranger let alone to themselves about the reality of their current situation.

For some reason, the segment above made me think of young military guys. It also fits with the obvious premise; 'when one gets older, one has a better perspective on how things could have been done differently, when younger.'

Come to think of it, it also fits with men who, when they were young, went on hunting expeditions and shot big game for the adventure and the trophy photos. For most, it wasn't until they got old and gray, that they realized the harm and folly of their younger ways.

[corkman]

<br />

<br />

<br />

<br />I have been in thailand both as a tourist and an expat for over 10 yrs, and there is no doubt in my mind that the girls in bars which service farangs are actually quite happy to be there particularly in tourist areas. I was in one such beer-bar last night (drinking only) and all the girls was laughing and giggling, and dancing around. Sure they are pro's and so a lot of that is an act, but I am very good at spotting human behaviour etc. And there was no cracks in their act.... Thay really were having fun (without a client in sight). Now go into Robinsons where have the staff are uni-grads and see can you spot a single one smiling? The miserable sods! Now I am not saying that all girls should grow up, be a prostitute, and hence be happy.... But what I am saying is that it is not as bad as some would have us believe, and they are there by choice and preference! Our western values base simply does not let most farangs accept that.<br />

<br /><br />I've been to numerous jails and prisons and watched inmates laugh, joke, sing, play sports (sort of) and I can assure you the overwhelming vast majority of them didn't want to be there and trust me, prison is much worse than most people want to believe. It is no different in prostitution and regardless of how many people want to tell you differently these girls are still looked down on by Thais and few Thais would ever knowingly marry a girl who has been in the business. In fact if you ask many Thai males something they find odd about farangs it is that we allow ourselves to be seen in public with prostitutes. Please do yourself a favor and ask some ex-working girls her or in any country if they enjoyed selling their body to strangers.<br />

<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />1. The jail reference is a dramatically good one and creates a vivid image, but they are not there by choice.<br />2. My point was that the girls are there by choice. The notion that they do not have a choice is melodramatic BS. It is simply their best career choice, not their only choice. Millions of Thai's go to work every day doing very hard work for very little money. These girls however have opted to take a different route ( a ) because the money is relatively good and ( b ) because the work is one big party.<br />3. Yes if you ask any girl that has "escaped" from the game they will be happy to sing a song of their woes (well actually they will make something up to justify it in some way), but the thing is that they did not "escape" they simply got a better offer. If you offer any bar girl a good honest job for even say 15k a month, they will decline it. It is not that they cannot work, they don't want to. And contrary to popular sob-story belief, they are not all single mothers with a mouth to feed.<br />

<br /><br />As I stated before .. once these girls get into the sex trade it is VERY difficult to get out of it. I am not going to get into the specifics but it is sort of like being wrapped up into any addictive / destructive behavior.  I suggested speaking with an ex-working girl because they now can see more clearly as well as a working girl still working not being likely to admit things to a stranger let alone to themselves about the reality of their current situation.<br /><br />One also has to ask themselves what makes these girls different from the vast majority of Thai women (or women period) who don't enter the sex trade that offers such fun and easy money.  What makes these girls have such low self-esteem for themselves to go into a trade that is considered the lowest of low by normal Thai standards and as one poster who argued with me said a trade where they won't even admit they are prostitutes?<br /><br />By the way I NEVER said these girls didn't have a choice and unless I missed some posts I don't believe anybody else said they didn't have a choice. <br /><br />No doubt there are girls in the trade who maybe come from good families with good upbringings but for whatever reason they choose this as a path but this is not the norm and people can site as many personal experiences they have had with bar girls (they never hire) but the fact remains too many studies have been done that tell the real facts for the reasons most girls get into the sex trade.  If it makes some people here (not saying you) feel better about using their services then so be it because it seems clear they are not going to accept facts.<br /><br />One thing I do find interesting is that the majority of posters here who want to indicate these girls are happy and having fun are the ones that seem to go out of their way in their posts to say they don't use their services or were not there to use their services in the examples they use of being around working girls.  As one poster likes to say ... I think they "protest too much"<br /><br />Edit: Thanks for being open minded enough to  consider the coloration between jails. I also hear your response as there is a difference but you actually add weight in terms of what I was responding to and that was judging people's happiness with their situation based on their 'appearing" happy.<br /><br />But to further add to the example not being such a bad one ... Consider most people are in jail because  they committed a crime by choice they knew could send them to jail. Also consider that my point was to say neither the girls nor the prisoners want to be in that life (at least my opinion). And finally consider that most people who commit crimes are not sent to prison and it is the ones who have committed numerous crimes that get caught or sentenced to prison. Again I will mention studies because they show that criminals tend to have some of the many of the same traits when it comes to their childhood and abuse or neglect they received. Certainly they made a choice to break the law but there is also certainly a proven link between experiences in childhood and the choices they felt they had. The same is true for most prostitutes. This is certainly not to say that all people abused as children grow up with these kinds of issues but the fact remains that these people with issues share similar experiences as children.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

You make some good points, but I would respectfully disagree with some.

I agree completely that there are many sanctimonious hyprocritical morons on here, whose self defending proclamations of " I don't use bar girls" is obvious BS. They're fooling no one.

Regarding the girls "not having a choice" - no, I did not mean to imply you said that, however it is inferred by many who are for some reason or another trying to vilify the whole thing. I for one do not deny that I have indulged in the past, however I am a married man now, and that's that. I do however enjoy going to girlie bars, making my intentions very clear from the outset, and just chatting until a suitable punter comes along.

I am a relatively young man, quite capable of picking up a girl if I were not married, and I can tell very quickly when a bird is going through the motions, or when there is a glimmer of "he seems ok" behind the mask which is what I used to look for - when they stop trying and just relax - when they stop having one eye you and the other on the door incase a better catch comes in. When they sit facing you, rather than parking their butt against your crouch, which is just a double effort to ( a ) not look a guy in the eye, and ( b ) to be able to look around..... In otherwords, not interested, just pay me and leave. I am just a big softy, and I'll be honest and say that I do feel sorry for the girls - I feel sorry for them that they are viewed by many as a lump of meat, and that is just plain not nice. I realise the irony of saying when I used to take bar girls I treated them with respect, but its all relative..... But they always have a choice, and they can always say no thanks. My sympathy ends at the point where I think everyone (while doing their job) should be treated with respect - whether it is the girl in burger king, your doctor, or a bar girl - she is providing a service and as a pro they should be granted a certain level of professional courtesy.

I maintain that I do not think the prison is a fair comparison. You make your point well, but I people in are there as a result of their life choices, not as a direct choice. By your logic, if I were to be involved in a car crash then I chose that because I chose to learn to drive.....

[pjclark1]

I am a relatively young man, quite capable of picking up a girl if I were not married, and I can tell very quickly when a bird is going through the motions, or when there is a glimmer of "he seems ok" behind the mask which is what I used to look for - when they stop trying and just relax - when they stop having one eye you and the other on the door incase a better catch comes in. When they sit facing you, rather than parking their butt against your crouch, which is just a double effort to ( a ) not look a guy in the eye, and ( b ) to be able to look around..... In otherwords, not interested, just pay me and leave.

So you used to pay for prostitutes (underage or not?), but it was OK because you were a young and very handsome man and they liked you.

[sydneyjed]

Let's get this straight fellas'...What the original post is reporting is the illegal taking and exploitation of under age Hill Tribe girls forced into prostitution between the ages of 13-15 years old...Vunerable.innocent girls who have no say in what is going to happen to them...What more can you say??Please,please don't start using this post or highjacking it to 'big note 'your selves on being 'young and good looking' in a bar...Who f...ing cares ??Get a grip of yourselves or take a reality check some of you..Leave your egos in the girly bars or with your mates!!

[swillowbee]

It was mentioned in the other thread that foreigners are not exposed to this type of lifestyle.

Have you ever been to Vegas, Los Angeles, Amsterdam, Frankfurt's Redlight district, or The Wall in Nuremberg? I'm sure there are a lot more.

I doubt Thailand invented this industry.

AND the first kneejerk Thai prostitution apologist 'ooooh, it happens everywhere'. Yes, but an ENTIRE country isn't famous/infamous for it. I'm sure no one titters when someone mentions they will be holidaying in any of the other countries you mention.

Stop being so predictable. Yawn.

By the way, WHY this bar? Didn't cough up the nam cha then?

... isn't it great to live in a Buddhist nation, where such high values are taught and practiced?

... my Korean colleague, a devout Buddhist, states that Thai Buddhism has been hijacked by "vested interests" intent on pacifying the population, not entirely differently than radical Muslims hijacked the Koran for their purposes nefarious purposes.

Edited February 18, 2011 by swillowbee

[arthurwait]

Have you ever been to Vegas, Los Angeles, Amsterdam, Frankfurt's Redlight district, or The Wall in Nuremberg? I'm sure there are a lot more.

I doubt Thailand invented this industry.

True. Thailand neither invented prostitution, nor karaoke bars. Then again, I doubt that you'll find 13-year old prostitutes (this fact perhaps even being known by some government officials) in Amsterdam, Frankfurt or the US. Nor will parents in those places sell their teenage daughters to brothels.

Wikipedia

North AmericaIn 2001, Dr. Richard Estes and Dr. Neil Alan Weiner estimated that in the U.S., 162,000 U.S. homeless youth are child prostitutes (CVE) and that 57,800 children in homes (including public housing) are estimated to be victims of CVE. They also estimated that 30% of shelter youth and 70% of homeless youth are victims of CVE in the United States.^[25] One third of street-level prostitutes in the U.S. are under 18 years old while fifty percent of off-street prostitutes are less than 18 years old.^[25] Off-street prostitution includes massage parlors, strip clubs, and escort services. According to Estes and Weiner, 12 to 14 is the average age of entry into prostitution for girls under 17 years old in the United States while the average age of entry into prostitution is between 11 and 13.^[25]

[ableguy]

How is this even news worthy? I was just on Koh Samui for a month. My classmates and I went out on different occasions to Lamai and Chawang for drinks. In Lamai there is a central square of bars around a Thai boxing ring. On any given night there are perhaps 100 girls (and ladyboys), give or take, working at these bars. All of them dressed like hookers and dancing on the poles installed in each tiny open air establishment. Many were open and fairly brazen about what they were there for. I decided to do my own research and bought a drink for the 20ish looking waitress who had been serving us a drinks and said I wanted her to join me for a while. She spoke fairly good English. She went into sales mode instantly but I calmed her anticipated action and said I want to talk for a while first. She was actually 30 and has a 12 year old son and 8 year old daughter back home in Isaan. She had been on Samui for 6 months already and claimed she was saving to go home. (Grain of salt taken) I asked how much to spend the night with her. 300 baht to the bar and 1000 baht to her. I asked how many other girls do I have to choose from. "Any one you see" was the answer. I asked how many were local girls. "Not many" was the answer. I estimate, from what I saw, that besides these 100 or so in this square, there were maybe another 200 in Lamai and the club scene in Chawang having at least that many as well. Point being, how is a bust on one tiny club involving a whopping 13 girls even worth talking about? And as we all know, this does not even represent a real bust. Perhaps the proprietors missed a payment to the local cops or to the local mafia. At any rate, there are thousands of girls across Thailand selling their wares on a daily basis without even feigning discretion due to fear of being caught let alone needing to be "freed" from their "captors". Although many girls would prefer not to be doing this kind of "work", they are certainly not being forced into it. It is relatively easy money and easy to get into. Sympathy? Sympathetic about the whole situation, but these girls are making their own choices.

You can find girls anywhere in Thailand on the game and being controlled, this raid was an insult to the average inteligence of all who bothered to read the piece, Thailand has the reputation of having the largest sex industry of any holiday destination, if it was curtailed tourism here would dry up, TAT know this as does anyone with half a brain.

[corkman]

<br />

<br />I am a relatively young man, quite capable of picking up a girl if I were not married, and I can tell very quickly when a bird is going through the motions, or when there is a glimmer of "he seems ok" behind the mask which is what I used to look for - when they stop trying and just relax - when they stop having one eye you and the other on the door incase a better catch comes in. When they sit facing you, rather than parking their butt against your crouch, which is just a double effort to ( a ) not look a guy in the eye, and ( b ) to be able to look around..... In otherwords, not interested, just pay me and leave.<br />

<br /><br />So you used to pay for prostitutes (underage or not?), but it was OK because you were a young and very handsome man and they liked you.<br /><img src='http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /><br />

<br /><br /><br />

That is neither what I said or meant, but as a wise man once said "be careful of arguing with a fool, for a passer by may noy know the difference"

The only part I will reply to is that I never have nor ever would have anything to do with an underage child, you're ur just a troll to suggest that is what I was implying.