13 Girls Rescued From Prostitution After Raid On Karaoke Bar In Chiang Mai's Muang District

[ginjag]

<br />

<br />I am a relatively young man, quite capable of picking up a girl if I were not married, and I can tell very quickly when a bird is going through the motions, or when there is a glimmer of "he seems ok" behind the mask which is what I used to look for - when they stop trying and just relax - when they stop having one eye you and the other on the door incase a better catch comes in. When they sit facing you, rather than parking their butt against your crouch, which is just a double effort to ( a ) not look a guy in the eye, and ( b ) to be able to look around..... In otherwords, not interested, just pay me and leave.<br />

<br /><br />So you used to pay for prostitutes (underage or not?), but it was OK because you were a young and very handsome man and they liked you.<br /><img src='http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /><br />

<br /><br /><br />

That is neither what I said or meant, but as a wise man once said "be careful of arguing with a fool, for a passer by may noy know the difference"

The only part I will reply to is that I never have nor ever would have anything to do with an underage child, you're ur just a troll to suggest that is what I was implying.

Leaving asside the underage ones, the girls in this mentioned thread.11 over18...............Just to put out a feeler to the posters who say they have to do it,etc.,................getting 4,000 bht in the field...Issan...you offered them 8,000 bht a month, on condition they stay there. Question-Would they go home ????? my answer is 90 per cent would say NO.....because they may make 15-20 k staying at the bar---coming back to choices once again. If they didn't like the lifestyle, wouldn't you go back. do no work and get 8,000k ???

[sydneyjed]

You just don't get it some of you guys..These girls are 13-15 years old and you think that because it is a token raid that 'it is an insult to the average intelligence '..of whom...You!!'..Nough said!!!.

How is this even news worthy? I was just on Koh Samui for a month. My classmates and I went out on different occasions to Lamai and Chawang for drinks. In Lamai there is a central square of bars around a Thai boxing ring. On any given night there are perhaps 100 girls (and ladyboys), give or take, working at these bars. All of them dressed like hookers and dancing on the poles installed in each tiny open air establishment. Many were open and fairly brazen about what they were there for. I decided to do my own research and bought a drink for the 20ish looking waitress who had been serving us a drinks and said I wanted her to join me for a while. She spoke fairly good English. She went into sales mode instantly but I calmed her anticipated action and said I want to talk for a while first. She was actually 30 and has a 12 year old son and 8 year old daughter back home in Isaan. She had been on Samui for 6 months already and claimed she was saving to go home. (Grain of salt taken) I asked how much to spend the night with her. 300 baht to the bar and 1000 baht to her. I asked how many other girls do I have to choose from. "Any one you see" was the answer. I asked how many were local girls. "Not many" was the answer. I estimate, from what I saw, that besides these 100 or so in this square, there were maybe another 200 in Lamai and the club scene in Chawang having at least that many as well. Point being, how is a bust on one tiny club involving a whopping 13 girls even worth talking about? And as we all know, this does not even represent a real bust. Perhaps the proprietors missed a payment to the local cops or to the local mafia. At any rate, there are thousands of girls across Thailand selling their wares on a daily basis without even feigning discretion due to fear of being caught let alone needing to be "freed" from their "captors". Although many girls would prefer not to be doing this kind of "work", they are certainly not being forced into it. It is relatively easy money and easy to get into. Sympathy? Sympathetic about the whole situation, but these girls are making their own choices.

You can find girls anywhere in Thailand on the game and being controlled, this raid was an insult to the average inteligence of all who bothered to read the piece, Thailand has the reputation of having the largest sex industry of any holiday destination, if it was curtailed tourism here would dry up, TAT know this as does anyone with half a brain.

[corkman]

Let's get this straight fellas'...What the original post is reporting is the illegal taking and exploitation of under age Hill Tribe girls forced into prostitution between the ages of 13-15 years old...Vunerable.innocent girls who have no say in what is going to happen to them...What more can you say??Please,please don't start using this post or highjacking it to 'big note 'your selves on being 'young and good looking' in a bar...Who f...ing cares ??Get a grip of yourselves or take a reality check some of you..Leave your egos in the girly bars or with your mates!!

Sir - I presume you mean me. If so, respectfully, please read and quote what I wrote and not how others have construed it. For the record, I am certainly not handsome and I'm slightly overweight - I was just trying to say that I am not an old mut and a young lady (in this context) could do a hell of a lot worse.Nothwithstanding this, you are 100% correct. I have participated in perpetuating a complete side line discussion which has nothing to do with the alleged forced prostitution of under age ethnic minorities (or of any ethnicity for that matter). For that, I apologise and will henceforth refrain from off topic discussions.Thanks for the wake up call - that is not a tongue-in-cheek comment.

[ginjag]

Let's get this straight fellas'...What the original post is reporting is the illegal taking and exploitation of under age Hill Tribe girls forced into prostitution between the ages of 13-15 years old...Vunerable.innocent girls who have no say in what is going to happen to them...What more can you say??Please,please don't start using this post or highjacking it to 'big note 'your selves on being 'young and good looking' in a bar...Who f...ing cares ??Get a grip of yourselves or take a reality check some of you..Leave your egos in the girly bars or with your mates!!

Sir - I presume you mean me. If so, respectfully, please read and quote what I wrote and not how others have construed it. For the record, I am certainly not handsome and I'm slightly overweight - I was just trying to say that I am not an old mut and a young lady (in this context) could do a hell of a lot worse.Nothwithstanding this, you are 100% correct. I have participated in perpetuating a complete side line discussion which has nothing to do with the alleged forced prostitution of under age ethnic minorities (or of any ethnicity for that matter). For that, I apologise and will henceforth refrain from off topic discussions.Thanks for the wake up call - that is not a tongue-in-cheek comment.

Did I initially read wrong, 13 were rescued----- but 11 were over 18, ---2 were under age. agreed they rescued them. and good. this wants cleaning up. The other thing about the remainder, have I missed out on any update, how many were actually imprisoned, against there will, and not free agents. were these remainder blackmailed/ sold/.....or ??? any more news or are the posters having to guess/or start going off topic. captive under age girls -the raid did some good. but.compared to the millions around, maybe the next time they will get the thousands operating in Pat/Phu/Sam. so maybe the thread got boring...so posters used it to air other things slightly related

[atyclb]

We now appear to have 2 people posting on this thread who have never been to Thailand.

"Abused as children", just rubbish, I have many female friends who have worked in the business and they never tell me that, now if you were to claim "Abused by Thai husbands/boyfriends" then that would appear to be true. Beatings by such are still accepted as normal behavior in a male/female relationship. There is child abuse but I can't connect it to working as a prostitute in later life.

By the way I am not a personal customer, I don't ever buy them drinks, but sometimes I buy fruit, Ice cream and food for the ladies.

They know I will never be their personal customer, but I have socialised with them, gone out to parties, dancing, etc. They are just normal people, mostly leading happy lives.

The underage sex is widespread, I have been offered such, but only when in the villages. Underage girls are not usually aimed at foreigners, it really is a home market. I know many Thai men who prefer 13/14/15/16 year olds as there preferred sexual partners, note that I haven't specified that partner to be male or female

Thai morality is not western womens morality.

Selling sex is very common, I would say almost every Thai lady would sell sex under the right circumstances.

Nobody in her family finding out being considered the right circumstance.

@Nisa

I am not denying statistics, although I haven't found them to be valid from my personal experience.

What I dislike is your blatant twisting of everything to make it the white foreigners fault.

What you appear to be trying to do is say that child abuse and child prostitution in Thailand is caused by white men.

The sex trade in Thailand has always been here and is aimed at Thais.

The underage sex trade in Thailand is almost exclusively a Thai problem.

Your obsession with fat/smelly/old white men is just strange.

@61guitarman61

What you see in the gogos you mentioned is a very tiny percentage of the sex trade in Thailand

Thais account for about 95% of the trade, other Asians 4% and whites probably less than 1%

Yet you also seem to want white men to have caused all the problems.

Do some online research about consequences of child abuse. I believe you will find a significant correlation to multiple issues later in life, working as a prostitute only one of them. As I don't feel like an expert on the dynamics of prostitution in Thailand I will leave it unto the capable and knowledgeable others to debate. The food is really good though

Edited February 21, 2011 by bonobo
changed text color

[ginjag]

We now appear to have 2 people posting on this thread who have never been to Thailand.

"Abused as children", just rubbish, I have many female friends who have worked in the business and they never tell me that, now if you were to claim "Abused by Thai husbands/boyfriends" then that would appear to be true. Beatings by such are still accepted as normal behavior in a male/female relationship. There is child abuse but I can't connect it to working as a prostitute in later life.

By the way I am not a personal customer, I don't ever buy them drinks, but sometimes I buy fruit, Ice cream and food for the ladies.

They know I will never be their personal customer, but I have socialised with them, gone out to parties, dancing, etc. They are just normal people, mostly leading happy lives.

The underage sex is widespread, I have been offered such, but only when in the villages. Underage girls are not usually aimed at foreigners, it really is a home market. I know many Thai men who prefer 13/14/15/16 year olds as there preferred sexual partners, note that I haven't specified that partner to be male or female

Thai morality is not western womens morality.

Selling sex is very common, I would say almost every Thai lady would sell sex under the right circumstances.

Nobody in her family finding out being considered the right circumstance.

@Nisa

I am not denying statistics, although I haven't found them to be valid from my personal experience.

What I dislike is your blatant twisting of everything to make it the white foreigners fault.

What you appear to be trying to do is say that child abuse and child prostitution in Thailand is caused by white men.

The sex trade in Thailand has always been here and is aimed at Thais.

The underage sex trade in Thailand is almost exclusively a Thai problem.

Your obsession with fat/smelly/old white men is just strange.

@61guitarman61

What you see in the gogos you mentioned is a very tiny percentage of the sex trade in Thailand

Thais account for about 95% of the trade, other Asians 4% and whites probably less than 1%

Yet you also seem to want white men to have caused all the problems.

Do some online research about consequences of child abuse. I believe you will find a significant correlation to multiple issues later in life, working as a prostitute only one of them. As I don't feel like an expert on the dynamics of prostitution in Thailand I will leave it unto the capable and knowledgeable others to debate. The food is really good though

The only research to be done (if you believe the research results) is to look up the one that is relevant to this thread. prostitution. all the other issues having time to read are not really helping in this case. So taking the said subject and analising that, would help some posters. helping them to have an incite into the subject. NOT ALL the reports on this regard to ALL the prostitutes and child abuse would be related to SOME of them. so your on line research post implies that most of the prostitutes went through a child abuse stage--CRAP. Your advice may be meant well--and would suit at least 2 posters that are well interested in stats only. To my idea reports and stats are there to point some facts out, but taking ALL of them on board and believing them is another thing

[pjclark1]

Do some online research about consequences of child abuse. I believe you will find a significant correlation to multiple issues later in life, working as a prostitute only one of them. As I don't feel like an expert on the dynamics of prostitution in Thailand I will leave it unto the capable and knowledgeable others to debate. The food is really good though

Statistics gained in the western world are unlikely to be valid in Asia

Different morality, different way of thinking, different culture.

Research by western NGOs in Asia must always be suspect, they are here to earn a living, if they report everything as good, no living for them.

Missionaries are almost as bad, but usually well meaning and not quite so self serving (IMHO)

Hardly any make any attempt to understand what is really happening, they judge and interperate everything using western standards.

For example

90% of bars in Thailand have working girls employed to work there by the management

So does that mean 90% of bars in Europe or America also employ prostitutes?

98% of motorcycle riders in the UK wear helmets

So anyone think 98% of motorcycle riders in Thailand wear helmets?

See how ridiculous statistics can become!

Edited February 21, 2011 by bonobo

[ginjag]

Do some online research about consequences of child abuse. I believe you will find a significant correlation to multiple issues later in life, working as a prostitute only one of them. As I don't feel like an expert on the dynamics of prostitution in Thailand I will leave it unto the capable and knowledgeable others to debate. The food is really good though

Statistics gained in the western world are unlikely to be valid in Asia

Different morality, different way of thinking, different culture.

Research by western NGOs in Asia must always be suspect, they are here to earn a living, if they report everything as good, no living for them.

Missionaries are almost as bad, but usually well meaning and not quite so self serving (IMHO)

Hardly any make any attempt to understand what is really happening, they judge and interperate everything using western standards.

For example

90% of bars in Thailand have working girls employed to work there by the management

So does that mean 90% of bars in Europe or America also employ prostitutes?

98% of motorcycle riders in the UK wear helmets

So anyone think 98% of motorcycle riders in Thailand wear helmets?

See how ridiculous statistics can become!

Spot on again,...Some of these stats believers are lacking somewhere upstairs, and cannot seem to discuss topics without them, learning from other peoples experiences, conversations, are the good things about posters in general....and we get some good humour mixed in. Many of our stats and bookwormers dont tend to have that streetwise outlook. Remember way back in our school class, we had them studious types that were not allowed to play in the streets, so were deprived of mixing with the majority. Hope you get my drift

[Nisa]

Some questions in looking through these posts...

Why do some posters have such a strong desire to go out of their way to deny being with a prostitute here while living in the world capital of sex tourism. Why do people feel such a need to go out of their way to say farangs only represent a small number of "johns" when nobody argued or stated differently. Why is it so many people disregard research done on a subject or even refuse to search out any research on a subject they admit they do not participate in and also refuse to look up any of the numerous studies done but instead want to continue to believe something that all evidence contradicts while admittedly saying they are going to disregard any credible facts from studies.

Why is it some people when given an example, to show prostitutes don't enjoy their job, such as imagining having sex with some "fat old smelly farang" get bent out of shape over the word farang (even though a later post in response said to replace the word "farang" w/"male"? Are all customers fat? Are all customers smelly? Are all customers old? If these posters cannot comprehend something that was clearly meant as a visual example to a specific audience reading here then what is the point of debating with them? If these posters cannot take a step back and examine where this guilt or strong feeling of objection is coming from then what is the point in debating with them on issues related to this topic?

The over all big question in my mind is; Why are people (including me) continuing to follow or post on this thread given the ridiculousness of some posters?

Enjoy the thread ... I am out.

PS: I certainly don't want to take away from the posters who did put some rational thought into their opinions and who appear to have honestly put themselves in other's shoes as there were a good number of posters who also did this but it seems for the most part the thread has deteriorated into silliness to the point that I feel embarrassed being a male farang after reading their posts.

[ginjag]

Some questions in looking through these posts...

Why do some posters have such a strong desire to go out of their way to deny being with a prostitute here while living in the world capital of sex tourism. Why do people feel such a need to go out of their way to say farangs only represent a small number of "johns" when nobody argued or stated differently. Why is it so many people disregard research done on a subject or even refuse to search out any research on a subject they admit they do not participate in and also refuse to look up any of the numerous studies done but instead want to continue to believe something that all evidence contradicts while admittedly saying they are going to disregard any credible facts from studies.

Why is it some people when given an example, to show prostitutes don't enjoy their job, such as imagining having sex with some "fat old smelly farang" get bent out of shape over the word farang (even though a later post in response said to replace the word "farang" w/"male"? Are all customers fat? Are all customers smelly? Are all customers old? If these posters cannot comprehend something that was clearly meant as a visual example to a specific audience reading here then what is the point of debating with them? If these posters cannot take a step back and examine where this guilt or strong feeling of objection is coming from then what is the point in debating with them on issues related to this topic?

The over all big question in my mind is; Why are people (including me) continuing to follow or post on this thread given the ridiculousness of some posters?

Enjoy the thread ... I am out.

PS: I certainly don't want to take away from the posters who did put some rational thought into their opinions and who appear to have honestly put themselves in other's shoes as there were a good number of posters who also did this but it seems for the most part the thread has deteriorated into silliness to the point that I feel embarrassed being a male farang after reading their posts.

Why should most people do research into subjects when its happening all around them everyday. I get embarrassed by many of your comments. Now its sillyness--others have been lack of education, and your comment about denial of being with prostitutes, because a person lives here doesn't mean that they go with them, others here are for entirely different reasons. Also to say other posters are ridiculous,........you really believe research and stats is the b. and end all. thai forum doesn't need all that. Your visual example was a very bad example( speaking about a fat smelly farrang) In this case who needs statistics when underage girls have been saved from further abuse, we debate why ?? and how it could be prevented. If your out of here thats up to you, but if you can,t take it--don't give it. some of you past comments on certain subjects have been interesting.

Edited February 19, 2011 by ginjag

[Canexpat]

Have you ever been to Vegas, Los Angeles, Amsterdam, Frankfurt's Redlight district, or The Wall in Nuremberg? I'm sure there are a lot more.

I doubt Thailand invented this industry.

True. Thailand neither invented prostitution, nor karaoke bars. Then again, I doubt that you'll find 13-year old prostitutes (this fact perhaps even being known by some government officials) in Amsterdam, Frankfurt or the US. Nor will parents in those places sell their teenage daughters to brothels.

You cant be so naive or self-righteous about western culture to make a statement that there are no 13 year old prostitutes in America or any other western society. Where there is demand there will always be supply. As for selling one's child into this industry, I think it is more the immigrant families from the surrounding countries - Cambodia, Burma, Vietnam, Laos - who are guilty of such things. They all boast large numbers of offspring in comparison and can afford to "lose" one or two along the way. We have vermin like that in the USA as well, just not in such great numbers. The same problems exist in the west, it's just that prostitution in general is not allowed as much as in Thailand due to the reduced levels or corruption. Of course, corruption is how any brothel stays open anywhere that has illegalized prostitution, there just is not the same level of corruption in our society. Here is Maesot, there are 4 "karaoke" bars, known for what they represent, using mostly Myanmar girls, also allowed to operate by the powers that be. The community here is, however, much more conservative and not set up to cater to western tourists, so there are only those 4. Still, there ARE 4.

The operative phrase here being "I think". Methinks you are mistaken. I have met dozens of girls, most of them from Isarn, who said they were doing very good in school, when one day their father (and in a few cases mother) sent them off the farm to go "work in the city" as they like to say. Of course I have only been spent time in Bangkok, Phuket, Pattaya, Udon Thani and Hua Hin, where I have yet to meet one from Cambodia, Burma, Vietnam or Laos. It may be different in Maesot, but I doubt that Maesot represents the broad perspective of where these young girls come from as much as the places I mentioned.

[sydneyjed]

Thanks Corkman...I really mean that!Its' just that we can can all make smart a..e quotes and don't sometimes realise we are doing it!!Sorry if I came across as singling you out but I just think sometimes we all have to stand back and think about situations like this!!One ,two girls underage?Let's get it right ..no one wants this s..t going on in any society..these girls deserve a chance !

Let's get this straight fellas'...What the original post is reporting is the illegal taking and exploitation of under age Hill Tribe girls forced into prostitution between the ages of 13-15 years old...Vunerable.innocent girls who have no say in what is going to happen to them...What more can you say??Please,please don't start using this post or highjacking it to 'big note 'your selves on being 'young and good looking' in a bar...Who f...ing cares ??Get a grip of yourselves or take a reality check some of you..Leave your egos in the girly bars or with your mates!!

Sir - I presume you mean me. If so, respectfully, please read and quote what I wrote and not how others have construed it. For the record, I am certainly not handsome and I'm slightly overweight - I was just trying to say that I am not an old mut and a young lady (in this context) could do a hell of a lot worse.Nothwithstanding this, you are 100% correct. I have participated in perpetuating a complete side line discussion which has nothing to do with the alleged forced prostitution of under age ethnic minorities (or of any ethnicity for that matter). For that, I apologise and will henceforth refrain from off topic discussions.Thanks for the wake up call - that is not a tongue-in-cheek comment.

[pjclark1]

Some questions in looking through these posts...

Why do some posters have such a strong desire to go out of their way to deny being with a prostitute here while living in the world capital of sex tourism.

Very brave of you to admit you are only here for the pros!

Why is it some people when given an example, to show prostitutes don't enjoy their job, such as imagining having sex with some "fat old smelly farang" get bent out of shape over the word farang

Maybe it's because some of us think racism is wrong. Along with ageism.

You appear to think white men should be prevented from having sex when they reach a certain age or weight.

The girls in this story were having sex with Thais, no white men, so why did you feel the need to add that in?

Enjoy the thread ... I am out.

Shame about that, I was about to ask you what weight or age you thought white men should be prevented from having sex, and how you intended to carry that out?

Edited February 19, 2011 by pjclark1

[ginjag]

Some questions in looking through these posts...

Why do some posters have such a strong desire to go out of their way to deny being with a prostitute here while living in the world capital of sex tourism.

Very brave of you to admit you are only here for the pros!

Why is it some people when given an example, to show prostitutes don't enjoy their job, such as imagining having sex with some "fat old smelly farang" get bent out of shape over the word farang

Maybe it's because some of us think racism is wrong. Along with ageism.

You appear to think white men should be prevented from having sex when they reach a certain age or weight.

The girls in this story were having sex with Thais, no white men, so why did you feel the need to add that in?

Enjoy the thread ... I am out.

Shame about that, I was about to ask you what weight or age you thought white men should be prevented from having sex, and how you intended to carry that out?

I have to smile at your answer. well done. Think you and me could have hit a nerve. maybe we are more streetwise.

[ginjag]

Some questions in looking through these posts...

Why do some posters have such a strong desire to go out of their way to deny being with a prostitute here while living in the world capital of sex tourism.

Very brave of you to admit you are only here for the pros!

Why is it some people when given an example, to show prostitutes don't enjoy their job, such as imagining having sex with some "fat old smelly farang" get bent out of shape over the word farang

Maybe it's because some of us think racism is wrong. Along with ageism.

You appear to think white men should be prevented from having sex when they reach a certain age or weight.

The girls in this story were having sex with Thais, no white men, so why did you feel the need to add that in?

Enjoy the thread ... I am out.

Shame about that, I was about to ask you what weight or age you thought white men should be prevented from having sex, and how you intended to carry that out?

555555

[atyclb]

Do some online research about consequences of child abuse. I believe you will find a significant correlation to multiple issues later in life, working as a prostitute only one of them. As I don't feel like an expert on the dynamics of prostitution in Thailand I will leave it unto the capable and knowledgeable others to debate. The food is really good though

Statistics gained in the western world are unlikely to be valid in Asia

Different morality, different way of thinking, different culture.

Research by western NGOs in Asia must always be suspect, they are here to earn a living, if they report everything as good, no living for them.

Missionaries are almost as bad, but usually well meaning and not quite so self serving (IMHO)

Hardly any make any attempt to understand what is really happening, they judge and interperate everything using western standards.

For example

90% of bars in Thailand have working girls employed to work there by the management

So does that mean 90% of bars in Europe or America also employ prostitutes?

Bars in USA and Europe are not generally fronts for prostitution so your hypothesis is null

98% of motorcycle riders in the UK wear helmets

So anyone think 98% of motorcycle riders in Thailand wear helmets?

Another unrealistic comparison. Do you think that in the region that uses 98% helmets there is a lower incidence of head trauma, morbidity, mortality?

See how ridiculous statistics can become!

Spot on again,...Some of these stats believers are lacking somewhere upstairs, and cannot seem to discuss topics without them, learning from other peoples experiences, conversations, are the good things about posters in general....and we get some good humour mixed in. Many of our stats and bookwormers dont tend to have that streetwise outlook. Remember way back in our school class, we had them studious types that were not allowed to play in the streets, so were deprived of mixing with the majority. Hope you get my drift

Child abuse be it physical, emotional and/or sexual simply is associated with significantly greater risk of dysfunctional behaviors/activities, etc in life in ANY geographic location.. Per your analysis are we to believe thai victims of child abuse are imune to or protected by something in Thai society that western society does not have? Not only western statistics are applicable in this case. I would not be surprised if some NGO stats are exaggerated, or swayed to justify their work. Many NGO's have done and continue to do admirable work, others less so, and I have seen corruption among them. Without NGO's some infamous pedophile outlets in Cambodia would still be in business.

In the real world, statistics are very important, and yes there can be cultural, societal variation. Statistics are what the airplane manufacturers base their maintenance schedules on, to help insure safety for us to fly. Statistics along with research and scientific methods have led to modern vaccines and medications. Without it you probably would not have the most magical expat medicine "viagra" etc. It even took accurate record keeping/ research for the original brewmasters to develop and refine their techniques.

Yes I agree with the statement "bookwormers dont tend to have that streetwise outlook" Yes, we are devoid of streetwise outlook most likely for "walking street" "nana street" "patpong street". How could anything academic possibly replace the knowledge and acuity gained at those places??? Maybe some of the people that succeeded in school also played basketball on the streets in the ghettos, on the university teams, worked low level jobs to pay for school, etc, etc.

[pjclark1]

Child abuse be it physical, emotional and/or sexual simply is associated with significantly greater risk of dysfunctional behaviors/activities, etc in life in ANY geographic location.. Per your analysis are we to believe thai victims of child abuse are imune to or protected by something in Thai society that western society does not have? Not only western statistics are applicable in this case. I would not be surprised if some NGO stats are exaggerated, or swayed to justify their work. Many NGO's have done and continue to do admirable work, others less so, and I have seen corruption among them. Without NGO's some infamous pedophile outlets in Cambodia would still be in business.

My whole point about the child abuse statistics is that they were made in the western world, where prostitution is considered an unusual occupation. To then transfer those statistics to a country where girls can be married at age 13 and there is little stigma attached to the girls selling sex makes the comparison nonsense.

In the real world, statistics are very important, and yes there can be cultural, societal variation. Statistics are what the airplane manufacturers base their maintenance schedules on, to help insure safety for us to fly. Statistics along with research and scientific methods have led to modern vaccines and medications. Without it you probably would not have the most magical expat medicine "viagra" etc. It even took accurate record keeping/ research for the original brewmasters to develop and refine their techniques.

Viagra was created as a medicine to lower blood pressure, it was only during the human trials that the 'side effect' became apparent. No research, no statics, just an accident.

Now just let us all agree that under-age prostitution is a bad thing, and agree to stop trying to put the blame for what some Thais do onto white men.

[atyclb]

Child abuse be it physical, emotional and/or sexual simply is associated with significantly greater risk of dysfunctional behaviors/activities, etc in life in ANY geographic location.. Per your analysis are we to believe thai victims of child abuse are imune to or protected by something in Thai society that western society does not have? Not only western statistics are applicable in this case. I would not be surprised if some NGO stats are exaggerated, or swayed to justify their work. Many NGO's have done and continue to do admirable work, others less so, and I have seen corruption among them. Without NGO's some infamous pedophile outlets in Cambodia would still be in business.

My whole point about the child abuse statistics is that they were made in the western world, where prostitution is considered an unusual occupation. To then transfer those statistics to a country where girls can be married at age 13 and there is little stigma attached to the girls selling sex makes the comparison nonsense.

Read one more time please

"Child abuse be it physical, emotional and/or sexual simply is associated with significantly greater risk of dysfunctional behaviors/activities"

Forget about transferring statistics from the west, do you see any credibility in the above statement? I do not solely refer to prostitution, but a slew of problems later on in life. If you do not see any credence in this statement than you are smarter and more knowledgeable than every psychologist, social worker, and psychiatrist combined on this planet.

Perhaps I just missed out in life for not having attended Pattaya University?

In the real world, statistics are very important, and yes there can be cultural, societal variation. Statistics are what the airplane manufacturers base their maintenance schedules on, to help insure safety for us to fly. Statistics along with research and scientific methods have led to modern vaccines and medications. Without it you probably would not have the most magical expat medicine "viagra" etc. It even took accurate record keeping/ research for the original brewmasters to develop and refine their techniques.

Viagra was created as a medicine to lower blood pressure, it was only during the human trials that the 'side effect' became apparent. No research, no statics, just an accident.

In order to come to know the above history of viagra did you not somehow get the information, perhaps research it, or it came to you in a divine moment? In your wildest imagination can you believe that there was quite a bit of statistical research, trials in order for the so called accidental drug to get approval for ED use?

Now just let us all agree that under-age prostitution is a bad thing, and agree to stop trying to put the blame for what some Thais do onto white men.

Agree, the huge sex industry in thailand is not the fault of anything except the love of money/capitalism. Certainly not expats fault

Edited February 19, 2011 by atyclb

[brahmburgers]

This is part of the scenario: Females in Asia grow up knowing they must be OWNED by some adult.

It's the sort of thing that's genetically programmed, akin to enjoying being given a bundle of roses or fawning over a newborn baby.

It's probably most ingrained in China, and Chinese influence has been very strong in Thailand for centuries. I've spoken with young SE Asian women (Thais, Burmese, Cambodian, Laotian) who work at places like bars, houses of prostitution, massage parlors, restaurants, even regular mom & pop stores. All of them have that ingrained attitude that they're OWNED by the proprietors. They don't use that word, or course, but their actions indicate that. The main way it manifests: Ask any one of those girls if they can go off premises to do the simplest thing: mail a letter, buy a soda, talk to someone .....and 50 out of 50 times, they'll tell you either, (1) it's not possible, or (2) they have to get prior permission from the mama sang, and they must be back very soon. Similarly, ALL their waking hours, 7 days/week, are 100% owned by their boss.

[caf]

I didn't think that we were ALLOWED to discuss the specifics of Thai prostitution on thaivisa. I guess only CERTAIN people are not allowed to discuss it.

We've got 7 pages here on a subject that I highly doubt any of us condone. I don't know anyone in the circles I travel in that condones adults having sex with children. There are a whole string of Karaoke bars in the area where I live in Chiang Mai. When I walk by every evening for the past 5 years I can count on one hand the number of farangs I've seen in those PFP bars. It is 100% Thai males and the Thai girls who work there. Some of the women even stay in the same hotel as myself. We just nod in passing. There is no way of determining the ages of the Thai women. I've seen 14 year old girls who both look and act like they are in their late twenties. And, by contrast, I know women in their early thirties who look like teenagers.

I hate the practise of indentured girls working off debts caused by they parents, but it's run by local mafia gangs, who in turn pay the local police to look the other way.

It's healthy to have these debates on the forum. One has to weed through the off topic posts and try not to be way-laid by the Thai apologists. Some important points then emerge and the reality is made a little more transparent.

1. It is perfectly legal for an establishment to have over 18 girls acting as drinking partners so long as the establishment is properly licensed

2. Prostitution is a business and the money flows are wide. It will therefore be tolerated.

3. Girls do not always have a choice of career and prostitution becomes an acceptable way of helping the family in Thai "culture" so long as there is no loss of face

4. Whether all 13 girls in this case were "rescued" rather than being stopped from working is something we will probably never know. More likely there was a problem with the money flows.

5. Only 3 girls were under age (if the original report is correct) . Still wrong of course

but let's get this in perspective.

caf

[caf]

This is part of the scenario: Females in Asia grow up knowing they must be OWNED by some adult.

It's the sort of thing that's genetically programmed, akin to enjoying being given a bundle of roses or fawning over a newborn baby.

It's probably most ingrained in China, and Chinese influence has been very strong in Thailand for centuries. I've spoken with young SE Asian women (Thais, Burmese, Cambodian, Laotian) who work at places like bars, houses of prostitution, massage parlors, restaurants, even regular mom & pop stores. All of them have that ingrained attitude that they're OWNED by the proprietors. They don't use that word, or course, but their actions indicate that. The main way it manifests: Ask any one of those girls if they can go off premises to do the simplest thing: mail a letter, buy a soda, talk to someone .....and 50 out of 50 times, they'll tell you either, (1) it's not possible, or (2) they have to get prior permission from the mama sang, and they must be back very soon. Similarly, ALL their waking hours, 7 days/week, are 100% owned by their boss.

Good way of putting it, Brahmburgers; Thailand is a hierarchical society where everyone knows his place. Whether one likes it or not it is a stabilising factor. And I stress that is an observation not a moralistic comment.

caf

[ginjag]

Do some online research about consequences of child abuse. I believe you will find a significant correlation to multiple issues later in life, working as a prostitute only one of them. As I don't feel like an expert on the dynamics of prostitution in Thailand I will leave it unto the capable and knowledgeable others to debate. The food is really good though

Statistics gained in the western world are unlikely to be valid in Asia

Different morality, different way of thinking, different culture.

Research by western NGOs in Asia must always be suspect, they are here to earn a living, if they report everything as good, no living for them.

Missionaries are almost as bad, but usually well meaning and not quite so self serving (IMHO)

Hardly any make any attempt to understand what is really happening, they judge and interperate everything using western standards.

For example

90% of bars in Thailand have working girls employed to work there by the management

So does that mean 90% of bars in Europe or America also employ prostitutes?

Bars in USA and Europe are not generally fronts for prostitution so your hypothesis is null

98% of motorcycle riders in the UK wear helmets

So anyone think 98% of motorcycle riders in Thailand wear helmets?

Another unrealistic comparison. Do you think that in the region that uses 98% helmets there is a lower incidence of head trauma, morbidity, mortality?

See how ridiculous statistics can become!

Spot on again,...Some of these stats believers are lacking somewhere upstairs, and cannot seem to discuss topics without them, learning from other peoples experiences, conversations, are the good things about posters in general....and we get some good humour mixed in. Many of our stats and bookwormers dont tend to have that streetwise outlook. Remember way back in our school class, we had them studious types that were not allowed to play in the streets, so were deprived of mixing with the majority. Hope you get my drift

Child abuse be it physical, emotional and/or sexual simply is associated with significantly greater risk of dysfunctional behaviors/activities, etc in life in ANY geographic location.. Per your analysis are we to believe thai victims of child abuse are imune to or protected by something in Thai society that western society does not have? Not only western statistics are applicable in this case. I would not be surprised if some NGO stats are exaggerated, or swayed to justify their work. Many NGO's have done and continue to do admirable work, others less so, and I have seen corruption among them. Without NGO's some infamous pedophile outlets in Cambodia would still be in business.

In the real world, statistics are very important, and yes there can be cultural, societal variation. Statistics are what the airplane manufacturers base their maintenance schedules on, to help insure safety for us to fly. Statistics along with research and scientific methods have led to modern vaccines and medications. Without it you probably would not have the most magical expat medicine "viagra" etc. It even took accurate record keeping/ research for the original brewmasters to develop and refine their techniques.

Yes I agree with the statement "bookwormers dont tend to have that streetwise outlook" Yes, we are devoid of streetwise outlook most likely for "walking street" "nana street" "patpong street". How could anything academic possibly replace the knowledge and acuity gained at those places??? Maybe some of the people that succeeded in school also played basketball on the streets in the ghettos, on the university teams, worked low level jobs to pay for school, etc, etc.

Streetwise doesn't mean Nana-P.P.Walk/st. my god.. I,m not knocking stats-but I do when they are not needed, when answers are staring you in the face, You mentioned those 3 streets, only you. I succeeded in school but still mixed with the kids. What stats do you need when the subject is underage kids, and to bring aero manufacturers into it 55555.......and who the heck wants viagra--good for a few-if you can afford it. Going into the areas that are known, who runs these underage dens, and destroy the nests, with local knowledge you get the best results, without referring to stats ALL the time

Edited February 20, 2011 by ginjag

[atyclb]

Do some online research about consequences of child abuse. I believe you will find a significant correlation to multiple issues later in life, working as a prostitute only one of them. As I don't feel like an expert on the dynamics of prostitution in Thailand I will leave it unto the capable and knowledgeable others to debate. The food is really good though

Statistics gained in the western world are unlikely to be valid in Asia

Different morality, different way of thinking, different culture.

Research by western NGOs in Asia must always be suspect, they are here to earn a living, if they report everything as good, no living for them.

Missionaries are almost as bad, but usually well meaning and not quite so self serving (IMHO)

Hardly any make any attempt to understand what is really happening, they judge and interperate everything using western standards.

For example

90% of bars in Thailand have working girls employed to work there by the management

So does that mean 90% of bars in Europe or America also employ prostitutes?

Bars in USA and Europe are not generally fronts for prostitution so your hypothesis is null

98% of motorcycle riders in the UK wear helmets

So anyone think 98% of motorcycle riders in Thailand wear helmets?

Another unrealistic comparison. Do you think that in the region that uses 98% helmets there is a lower incidence of head trauma, morbidity, mortality?

See how ridiculous statistics can become!

Spot on again,...Some of these stats believers are lacking somewhere upstairs, and cannot seem to discuss topics without them, learning from other peoples experiences, conversations, are the good things about posters in general....and we get some good humour mixed in. Many of our stats and bookwormers dont tend to have that streetwise outlook. Remember way back in our school class, we had them studious types that were not allowed to play in the streets, so were deprived of mixing with the majority. Hope you get my drift

Child abuse be it physical, emotional and/or sexual simply is associated with significantly greater risk of dysfunctional behaviors/activities, etc in life in ANY geographic location.. Per your analysis are we to believe thai victims of child abuse are imune to or protected by something in Thai society that western society does not have? Not only western statistics are applicable in this case. I would not be surprised if some NGO stats are exaggerated, or swayed to justify their work. Many NGO's have done and continue to do admirable work, others less so, and I have seen corruption among them. Without NGO's some infamous pedophile outlets in Cambodia would still be in business.

In the real world, statistics are very important, and yes there can be cultural, societal variation. Statistics are what the airplane manufacturers base their maintenance schedules on, to help insure safety for us to fly. Statistics along with research and scientific methods have led to modern vaccines and medications. Without it you probably would not have the most magical expat medicine "viagra" etc. It even took accurate record keeping/ research for the original brewmasters to develop and refine their techniques.

Yes I agree with the statement "bookwormers dont tend to have that streetwise outlook" Yes, we are devoid of streetwise outlook most likely for "walking street" "nana street" "patpong street". How could anything academic possibly replace the knowledge and acuity gained at those places??? Maybe some of the people that succeeded in school also played basketball on the streets in the ghettos, on the university teams, worked low level jobs to pay for school, etc, etc.

Streetwise doesn't mean Nana-P.P.Walk/st. my god.. I,m not knocking stats-but I do when they are not needed, when answers are staring you in the face, You mentioned those 3 streets, only you. I succeeded in school but still mixed with the kids. What stats do you need when the subject is underage kids, and to bring aero manufacturers into it 55555.......and who the heck wants viagra--good for a few-if you can afford it. Going into the areas that are known, who runs these underage dens, and destroy the nests, with local knowledge you get the best results, without referring to stats ALL the time

Spot on again,...Some of these stats believers are lacking somewhere upstairs, and cannot seem to discuss topics without them, learning from other peoples experiences, conversations, are the good things about posters in general....and we get some good humour mixed in. Many of our stats and bookwormers dont tend to have that streetwise outlook. Remember way back in our school class, we had them studious types that were not allowed to play in the streets, so were deprived of mixing with the majority. Hope you get my drift

Your above quote in blue seems to say the academic people/ studious types lack streetsmarts because they were not allowed to play in the streets, so were deprived of mixing with the majority. Seems your statement inferred you are not the studious/bookwormer but the one with streetwise outlook.

aero manufacturers was mentioned to illustrate one very important example of western stats applicable trans-nationally. I didn't think I really needed to spell out the rationale as I am now compelled to do (clearly no laughter).

Some people in this world actually believe prostitution is but one sequela of child abuse, those "some people" would be psychologists, social workers, psychiatrists including those in Thailand. Clearly this does not mean every victim of child abuse will become a prostitute (no laughter) This is one of the points being debated. Your responses are not really as challenging as they are perplexing. I throw in the towel.

[ginjag]

Aty, So you have thrown in the towel, done yourself a favour then, resting your fingers,Have you read what you have wrote about abuse, or did it flow out of control. My god please, All the posters were concerned, but not surprised what happened. 2 being (rescued )is better than none, But it would have taken dads army to go through Thailand and clean it up. Goverment department must have a headache trying to make inroads, Most of the said bars are Thai owned, with big business involved, so how does one tackle them. An odd purge now and again by the bib, to satisfy the media. Do you now understand that you can have all the stats you want--but stats don't get the police involved. Hands on rescues these kids not books, or google

[SPIKECM]

I can't believe someone can be so naive....once the glass is broken it is truly broken. Did you really imagine that out there was some girl who would rather turn their back on a life full of opportunity, easy money, fun and Thai boyfriends for the life of a maid.. what, like there's some kind of dignity in that line of work? Dignity for the Thai low class is a few baht of gold around their neck. It doesn't matter at all where the money came from. and furthermore...it matters not to a Thai what her salary will "progress" to!!! ...that is a joke.. I can't see that your Thai wife came out with that one. These girls can't think past the next Monday, never mind the promise of some future increase in salary. You've a lot of growing up to do my friend. Thailand will eat your heart if your not careful. It eats Mr Jai Dee for breakfast.

How is this even news worthy? I was just on Koh Samui for a month. My classmates and I went out on different occasions to Lamai and Chawang for drinks. In Lamai there is a central square of bars around a Thai boxing ring. On any given night there are perhaps 100 girls (and ladyboys), give or take, working at these bars. All of them dressed like hookers and dancing on the poles installed in each tiny open air establishment. Many were open and fairly brazen about what they were there for. I decided to do my own research and bought a drink for the 20ish looking waitress who had been serving us a drinks and said I wanted her to join me for a while. She spoke fairly good English. She went into sales mode instantly but I calmed her anticipated action and said I want to talk for a while first. She was actually 30 and has a 12 year old son and 8 year old daughter back home in Isaan. She had been on Samui for 6 months already and claimed she was saving to go home. (Grain of salt taken) I asked how much to spend the night with her. 300 baht to the bar and 1000 baht to her. I asked how many other girls do I have to choose from. "Any one you see" was the answer. I asked how many were local girls. "Not many" was the answer. I estimate, from what I saw, that besides these 100 or so in this square, there were maybe another 200 in Lamai and the club scene in Chawang having at least that many as well. Point being, how is a bust on one tiny club involving a whopping 13 girls even worth talking about? And as we all know, this does not even represent a real bust. Perhaps the proprietors missed a payment to the local cops or to the local mafia. At any rate, there are thousands of girls across Thailand selling their wares on a daily basis without even feigning discretion due to fear of being caught let alone needing to be "freed" from their "captors". Although many girls would prefer not to be doing this kind of "work", they are certainly not being forced into it. It is relatively easy money and easy to get into. Sympathy? Sympathetic about the whole situation, but these girls are making their own choices.

You might want to do a little bit more research regarding how the Girls would like to be employed. My Wife runs a small business and we needed a couple of helpers and having a Thai Wife, thought it would keep life simple if we had a couple of Thai Girls. Try as we may to find a couple to employ them, we had no luck, so I "volunteered" (I know, no sacrifice is to great for my Lovely Wife), to cruise around the Girlie Bars because I was led to believe there are quite a few Isaan Girls working there. Now, you can't just go barging in there and say "anyone want a job?" That's a bit rude, so I hung around and played a couple of games of pool and bought a couple of drinks and then when I was feeling quite relaxed, asked if any of them fancied a job. Basically they are Housekeeping appointments and we were prepared to pay 5,500 as a staring salary, progressing each three months to 7,500 baht. No one was interested. It transpires that most of them would prefer to stay working in the bars because every night is a party night and they also hope to meet a future foreign husband who will then give them a comfortable life.

I agree whole heartedly that employing 13 year olds as prostitutes is absolutely deplorable.

[SPIKECM]

Well I dunno. The girls in this bar in question aren't mostly underage. There might be a few, yes and if there is any as young as 13 that is pretty deplorable, but I still think this has to be put in a cultural context. Where these girls came from, is an area where (and they had an exposure on Thai TV some time ago on this) the prostitution of their daughters is something which has been going on for a long long time. When a girl is born there used to be (maybe now I am not sure) some celebration as they knew exactly what her worth was when she came of age. Most of these girls farangs never see. They mostly go to places like Betong at the Malaysian border. They go there as naive young girls and come back as confident prostitutes; their childhood innocence traded for gold around their necks and money for their families. It is a trade which we see as sickening, but to them as something quite different.

We would of course be far happier if they all stayed at home and had nice idylic hill tribey lives. A bit of farming some corn, some rice and looking after some pigs; the children skipping back home from the missionary schools to their waiting caring parents. Their reality though is that their parents will be abusive to each other and probably to their children too. The fathers will most probably be drunkards and the virginity of the girls will most probably be broken at a very early age. Culturally, there is a thing called quam gadaan yuu, the debt of gratitude which a child owes her parents at the coming of age. The girls take this seriously.

In large areas of Thailand, especially in an area like mae sai, a child becomes of age after puberty and not when western culture dictates. To us westerners of course we see this story here as children being forced into prostitution and equate it with a western similar situation. However, i think if you want to understand the problem and in any way solve it, I think you have to understand the cultural context of how this is happening.

In live in Chiang Mai and I discussed this story with my good friend (she's a language teacher) and she really had no shock at all of the reported age of one of these girls. I asked if there was much chance of this being the work of a good and true policeman, at which she laughed. It was all about money and she really believed that this was about promoting the karaoke bar. What? Yes, seemingly these places are filled with customers after a raid such as this. Headline news is good publicity no matter what the form.

Child abuse be it physical, emotional and/or sexual simply is associated with significantly greater risk of dysfunctional behaviors/activities, etc in life in ANY geographic location.. Per your analysis are we to believe thai victims of child abuse are imune to or protected by something in Thai society that western society does not have? Not only western statistics are applicable in this case. I would not be surprised if some NGO stats are exaggerated, or swayed to justify their work. Many NGO's have done and continue to do admirable work, others less so, and I have seen corruption among them. Without NGO's some infamous pedophile outlets in Cambodia would still be in business.

Edited February 21, 2011 by SPIKECM

[atyclb]

I have spoken with Thai people that are also saddened and sickened by this way of thinking, but no doubt within the circles that have adapted that lifestyle, it is" business as usual"

Well I dunno. The girls in this bar in question aren't mostly underage. There might be a few, yes and if there is any as young as 13 that is pretty deplorable, but I still think this has to be put in a cultural context. Where these girls came from, is an area where (and they had an exposure on Thai TV some time ago on this) the prostitution of their daughters is something which has been going on for a long long time. When a girl is born there used to be (maybe now I am not sure) some celebration as they knew exactly what her worth was when she came of age. Most of these girls farangs never see. They mostly go to places like Betong at the Malaysian border. They go there as naive young girls and come back as confident prostitutes; their childhood innocence traded for gold around their necks and money for their families. It is a trade which we see as sickening, but to them as something quite different.

We would of course be far happier if they all stayed at home and had nice idylic hill tribey lives. A bit of farming some corn, some rice and looking after some pigs; the children skipping back home from the missionary schools to their waiting caring parents. Their reality though is that their parents will be abusive to each other and probably to their children too. The fathers will most probably be drunkards and the virginity of the girls will most probably be broken at a very early age. Culturally, there is a thing called quam gadaan yuu, the debt of gratitude which a child owes her parents at the coming of age. The girls take this seriously.

In large areas of Thailand, especially in an area like mae sai, a child becomes of age after puberty and not when western culture dictates. To us westerners of course we see this story here as children being forced into prostitution and equate it with a western similar situation. However, i think if you want to understand the problem and in any way solve it, I think you have to understand the cultural context of how this is happening.

In live in Chiang Mai and I discussed this story with my good friend (she's a language teacher) and she really had no shock at all of the reported age of one of these girls. I asked if there was much chance of this being the work of a good and true policeman, at which she laughed. It was all about money and she really believed that this was about promoting the karaoke bar. What? Yes, seemingly these places are filled with customers after a raid such as this. Headline news is good publicity no matter what the form.

Child abuse be it physical, emotional and/or sexual simply is associated with significantly greater risk of dysfunctional behaviors/activities, etc in life in ANY geographic location.. Per your analysis are we to believe thai victims of child abuse are imune to or protected by something in Thai society that western society does not have? Not only western statistics are applicable in this case. I would not be surprised if some NGO stats are exaggerated, or swayed to justify their work. Many NGO's have done and continue to do admirable work, others less so, and I have seen corruption among them. Without NGO's some infamous pedophile outlets in Cambodia would still be in business.

[ianf]

Sex with underage kids is bad. Any questions?

Sex with underage girls according to western morals is bad. Agreed.

But many societies - going back hundreds if not thousands of years considered a girl a woman once she had her first period.

That could be at the age of 10 or 16.

Is it right to lay our moral strictures onto closed societies who are not part of the western culture? Just a question.

How many porn sites tempt men with legal age girls done up in in school uniforms? Zillions, eh?

Or how about the nasty sleazy dailies (The Sun or Daily Sport in the UK for example) who's page 3 girls of legal age are often made to look like younger schoolgirls? These same papers have the cheek to run campaigns against those convicted or suspected of using underage girls and yet they seem to encourage this with their pornography.

I'm not comfortable with this stuff - to me the witch hunt against paedophilia smacks of the new witchcraft - it gives people another object of hate that nobody dares to contradict because if they do they could be tarred with the same brush.

Witch hunts stop rational discussion. People react to this issue in a way that is expected of them rather than in the way they feel.

And yet, if you opened an underage explicit porn site I have no doubt that it would get millions upon millions of hits which gives the lie to the fact that paedophilia is a minority interest. I'm certain that it's massive.

I bet that 90% of men are tempted but because it's socially unacceptable only a small portion of those take the plunge.

And don't ask me what me particular preferences are. I'm fed up of women and gave up sex a long time ago. I'd rather ride my bicycle.

Don't flame me, I'm just saying what I feel.

[Tokay]

I can't believe someone can be so naive....once the glass is broken it is truly broken. Did you really imagine that out there was some girl who would rather turn their back on a life full of opportunity, easy money, fun and Thai boyfriends for the life of a maid.. what, like there's some kind of dignity in that line of work? Dignity for the Thai low class is a few baht of gold around their neck. It doesn't matter at all where the money came from. and furthermore...it matters not to a Thai what her salary will "progress" to!!! ...that is a joke.. I can't see that your Thai wife came out with that one. These girls can't think past the next Monday, never mind the promise of some future increase in salary. You've a lot of growing up to do my friend. Thailand will eat your heart if your not careful. It eats Mr Jai Dee for breakfast.

I agree 100% with this.

Sex with underage girls according to western morals is bad. Agreed.

But many societies - going back hundreds if not thousands of years considered a girl a woman once she had her first period.

That could be at the age of 10 or 16.

Is it right to lay our moral strictures onto closed societies who are not part of the western culture? Just a question.

How many porn sites tempt men with legal age girls done up in in school uniforms? Zillions, eh?

Or how about the nasty sleazy dailies (The Sun or Daily Sport in the UK for example) who's page 3 girls of legal age are often made to look like younger schoolgirls? These same papers have the cheek to run campaigns against those convicted or suspected of using underage girls and yet they seem to encourage this with their pornography.

My grandma married at 13. Had her first baby at 14. My grandpa was 8 years older than her.

Times change, but if you look at it from the perspective of survival of the species and natural selection, if their bodies are developed enough able to give birth... they are ready for sex. What man made law or silly moral mindset can argue with 200,000 years of evolution? If they can breed at such a young age, 200k years says it's for a reason.

However, the question of if they are mentally fit to give birth and raise a child is another debate. At another time in history, yes. These days... not a chance in hell.

[ianf]

I can't believe someone can be so naive....once the glass is broken it is truly broken. Did you really imagine that out there was some girl who would rather turn their back on a life full of opportunity, easy money, fun and Thai boyfriends for the life of a maid.. what, like there's some kind of dignity in that line of work? Dignity for the Thai low class is a few baht of gold around their neck. It doesn't matter at all where the money came from. and furthermore...it matters not to a Thai what her salary will "progress" to!!! ...that is a joke.. I can't see that your Thai wife came out with that one. These girls can't think past the next Monday, never mind the promise of some future increase in salary. You've a lot of growing up to do my friend. Thailand will eat your heart if your not careful. It eats Mr Jai Dee for breakfast.

I agree 100% with this.

Sex with underage girls according to western morals is bad. Agreed.

But many societies - going back hundreds if not thousands of years considered a girl a woman once she had her first period.

That could be at the age of 10 or 16.

Is it right to lay our moral strictures onto closed societies who are not part of the western culture? Just a question.

How many porn sites tempt men with legal age girls done up in in school uniforms? Zillions, eh?

Or how about the nasty sleazy dailies (The Sun or Daily Sport in the UK for example) who's page 3 girls of legal age are often made to look like younger schoolgirls? These same papers have the cheek to run campaigns against those convicted or suspected of using underage girls and yet they seem to encourage this with their pornography.

My grandma married at 13. Had her first baby at 14. My grandpa was 8 years older than her.

Times change, but if you look at it from the perspective of survival of the species and natural selection, if their bodies are developed enough able to give birth... they are ready for sex. What man made law or silly moral mindset can argue with 200,000 years of evolution? If they can breed at such a young age, 200k years says it's for a reason.

However, the question of if they are mentally fit to give birth and raise a child is another debate. At another time in history, yes. These days... not a chance in hell.

Well, yes, that is true. These days there are pressures on society that didn't exist in previous eras. When the babies and kids were looked after communally in the village (same as old people) there was a different balance to life. Perhaps there is another issue here. Is there more sex for gratification now rather than procreation? I have no idea. Just asking.