Kwan

[Xangsamhua]

You got it right that Kwan is a vital force and is called such only for the living. It's the vin-yaan (Vinnana in Pali) that permanently leaves the body upon physical death.

Thanks for your explanation. So if I understand well vinyaan can be seen as the eternal and universal awareness that is temporarely manifesting itself in the human form and is in a certain way the medium through which rebirth and karma are possible.

Thank you, Dutch Guest, but I wonder.

If (1) "kwan" exists, and (2) is the temporary manifestation in human form of eternal and universal awareness, in what way is it different from "mind"?

If our individual "minds" are manifestations and adaptations of a universal mind then there seems to be no room for another vital force (other than, perhaps, Schopenhauer's blind and impassionate energizing "Will", which would cancel out both universal mind and spirit).

It may be easier, as per Ockam's razor, to simply dismiss "kwan" as a myth and focus on mind, manifested as mindfulness, wisdom and morality, as the Buddha taught.

[dutchguest]

You got it right that Kwan is a vital force and is called such only for the living. It's the vin-yaan (Vinnana in Pali) that permanently leaves the body upon physical death.

Thanks for your explanation. So if I understand well vinyaan can be seen as the eternal and universal awareness that is temporarely manifesting itself in the human form and is in a certain way the medium through which rebirth and karma are possible.

Thank you, Dutch Guest, but I wonder.

If (1) "kwan" exists, and (2) is the temporary manifestation in human form of eternal and universal awareness, in what way is it different from "mind"?

If our individual "minds" are manifestations and adaptations of a universal mind then there seems to be no room for another vital force (other than, perhaps, Schopenhauer's blind and impassionate energizing "Will", which would cancel out both universal mind and spirit).

It may be easier, as per Ockam's razor, to simply dismiss "kwan" as a myth and focus on mind, manifested as mindfulness, wisdom and morality, as the Buddha taught.

Hi,

I see the mind as a rather superficial function in dealing with the outer world, the rational function, located in the brains. On a deeper level we have the heart dealing on the level of feelings. At the deepest level we have the navel area dealing with life on an existential level (to be or not to be). This is supposed to be the kwan or hara area.

With this division I think I am talking about the mind in a narrow sense: in a broader sense, a Buddha-mind encloses all three areas. It is a question of awareness, a sleeper is not (much) aware of the functioning of the deeper areas and lives mainly through the mind (in a narrow sense), a Buddha is aware of all areas, which means he is not a slave of his feelings and instincts. So mind in the broader, Buddha-sense is in a certain way a master over live and dead, has gone beyond life and death, and is the same as the universal, eternal awareness.

As I see it now I would not qualify “kwan” as a myth, but as a very subtile, yet vital and really existing form of energy. The focus on mindfulness, wisdom and morality is just the way to progress from the small mind to a broader mind that should make man more aware of the energies that are moving him.

[Xangsamhua]

You got it right that Kwan is a vital force and is called such only for the living. It's the vin-yaan (Vinnana in Pali) that permanently leaves the body upon physical death.

Thanks for your explanation. So if I understand well vinyaan can be seen as the eternal and universal awareness that is temporarely manifesting itself in the human form and is in a certain way the medium through which rebirth and karma are possible.

Thank you, Dutch Guest, but I wonder.

If (1) "kwan" exists, and (2) is the temporary manifestation in human form of eternal and universal awareness, in what way is it different from "mind"?

If our individual "minds" are manifestations and adaptations of a universal mind then there seems to be no room for another vital force (other than, perhaps, Schopenhauer's blind and impassionate energizing "Will", which would cancel out both universal mind and spirit).

It may be easier, as per Ockam's razor, to simply dismiss "kwan" as a myth and focus on mind, manifested as mindfulness, wisdom and morality, as the Buddha taught.

Hi,

I see the mind as a rather superficial function in dealing with the outer world, the rational function, located in the brains. On a deeper level we have the heart dealing on the level of feelings. At the deepest level we have the navel area dealing with life on an existential level (to be or not to be). This is supposed to be the kwan or hara area.

With this division I think I am talking about the mind in a narrow sense: in a broader sense, a Buddha-mind encloses all three areas. It is a question of awareness, a sleeper is not (much) aware of the functioning of the deeper areas and lives mainly through the mind (in a narrow sense), a Buddha is aware of all areas, which means he is not a slave of his feelings and instincts. So mind in the broader, Buddha-sense is in a certain way a master over live and dead, has gone beyond life and death, and is the same as the universal, eternal awareness.

As I see it now I would not qualify “kwan” as a myth, but as a very subtile, yet vital and really existing form of energy. The focus on mindfulness, wisdom and morality is just the way to progress from the small mind to a broader mind that should make man more aware of the energies that are moving him.

Thanks, Dutch Guest. I'll go away and think about this.

By the way, there's an error in my post above. I meant to refer to Schopenhauer's "Will" as dispassionate, not impassionate. Actually, even that is not correct. The "Will" is more than dispassionate ("not influenced by strong feeling"), it is totally devoid of feeling at all other than an urge to perpetuate itself.

[dutchguest]

As I see it now I would not qualify “kwan” as a myth, but as a very subtile, yet vital and really existing form of energy. The focus on mindfulness, wisdom and morality is just the way to progress from the small mind to a broader mind that should make man more aware of the energies that are moving him.

Leaving the kwan and hara for what they are and trying to translate the eastern conceptions in a western way with which I am more accustomed, I think Freud put us on the right track with his concept of sublimation. Sexual energy can be transformed from the unconscious animalistic reproductive function into more conscious creative forms of expression. This is what distinguishes man from animals. I see sexual energy as the same as vital or life energy, also originating in the navel area, the area where we were connected with our mothers and from where our life originates.

[sabaijai]

At the moment I am reading “The Tibetan book of the dead”. From this I get the impression that the kwan is the “vital force”, residing somewhere in the navel-area and entering and leaving the body through the crown of the head in the bardo-state, the state between death and possible rebirth.

There are many gods and other supernatural beings in the book which might deter some to read the book or take it seriously, but if you perceive them metaphorically, as projections of our mind and not as really existing beings in the outer world, it may make some more sense.

Ah, thanks for bringing up the title of my favorite book! Morbid, yes.

You got it right that Kwan is a vital force and is called such only for the living. It's the vin-yaan (Vinnana in Pali) that permanently leaves the body upon physical death.

Kwan is not the same as vinnana (tilde over 2nd n; my thai keyboard has none). The two concepts arose from two separate belief systems.

Kwan comes out of pre-Buddhist Tai animism, and refers to spirit(s) that govern bodily functions. See this post above:

Vinnana, on the other hand, is linked to the mind, ie consciousness, eg (from Wiki) 1) as a derivative of the sense bases (āyatana), part of the experientially exhaustive "All" (sabba); (2) as one of the five aggregates (khandha) of clinging (upadana) at the root of suffering (dukkha); and, (3) as one of the twelve causes (nidana) of "Dependent Origination" (paticcasamuppāda) which provides a template for Buddhist notions of kamma, rebirth and release.

The Vinnana Sutta:

At Savatthi. "Monks, eye-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."

[dutchguest]

At the moment I am reading “The Tibetan book of the dead”. From this I get the impression that the kwan is the “vital force”, residing somewhere in the navel-area and entering and leaving the body through the crown of the head in the bardo-state, the state between death and possible rebirth.

There are many gods and other supernatural beings in the book which might deter some to read the book or take it seriously, but if you perceive them metaphorically, as projections of our mind and not as really existing beings in the outer world, it may make some more sense.

Ah, thanks for bringing up the title of my favorite book! Morbid, yes.

You got it right that Kwan is a vital force and is called such only for the living. It's the vin-yaan (Vinnana in Pali) that permanently leaves the body upon physical death.

Kwan is not the same as vinnana (tilde over 2nd n; my thai keyboard has none). The two concepts arose from two separate belief systems.

Kwan comes out of pre-Buddhist Tai animism, and refers to spirit(s) that govern bodily functions. See this post above:

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__4237903

Vinnana, on the other hand, is linked to the mind, ie consciousness, eg (from Wiki) 1) as a derivative of the sense bases (āyatana), part of the experientially exhaustive "All" (sabba); (2) as one of the five aggregates (khandha) of clinging (upadana) at the root of suffering (dukkha); and, (3) as one of the twelve causes (nidana) of "Dependent Origination" (paticcasamuppāda) which provides a template for Buddhist notions of kamma, rebirth and release.

The Vinnana Sutta:

At Savatthi. "Monks, eye-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."

Thanks, I leave the kwan for what they are.

From a psycho-analytic point of view they are i.m.o. projections of fysical energies that are not recognised as such (energies) but have taken other forms and were endowed with personalised powers.

I thought I could come to some common denominator, essence of all spiritual fenomena, awareness, ghosts etc. But things are becoming to confusing.

[Polsci]

Perhaps it has to do with cognates. Thai language, as you know, borrow heavily from other languages and go through changes culturally, socially, religiously, politically (and add your own adverbs). Current usages and meanings of these Thai cognates don't refer to the same thing as their Sanskrit, Pali, French, English, Chinese, Khmer, Arabic, Malay, Lao words. Unfortunately, the words like "Kwan" and "Vinyan" in Thai don't directly and correctly correspond to all the words in English. Every word requires detailed explanations. Vinyan, for example, can be heard in everyday conversations about dead people that their Vinyan (s) leave bodies. Then, a Vinyan that leaves the body caused by a violent or sudden death becomes a "bad" ghost or Phii that hangs around the place where the unfortunate incident takes place. Despite associating with Hinduism, Viññana (Pali) or Vijñana (Sanskrit) that means consciousness, mind, or awareness has nothing to do with the lowly ghost (Thai animism) in Thai.

But it's then the lost soul or Kwan that temporarily leaves the body due to a traumatic event. Kwan can be called back to a body with the pulse via a Kwan ceremony. Warm bodies have Kwan (s). Dead bodies have Vinyan (s) that can be ceremonially asked to move to a spirit house or an appropriate abode for such being. Or to another rebirth.

Another close term in Thai is Chit-Chai or Jit-Jai (Citta in Pali). Chit (Jit) can briefly travel to a different plane (of existence) at will during a meditation or uncontrollably during a dream state. Out of body experience in English? A contemporary usage of Jai is Jai-Loy (floating heart/mind or wandering thoughts).

Speaking of being spaced out, I gotta get back to the real world.