Seven Thai Red Shirt Leaders Freed On Bail

[patjem]

Smart play Abhisit! "New evidence" looks just like an excuse to release them. "Terrorism charges" en excuse to hold them. In the end "watch out guys what we can do to you if you misbehave" message is clear. And yes, collect bail, hit them in their pockets if they stray! It's painful. That's what Singapore government does to opposition with a great success. Shuts them up every time. No protests to "release the leaders" planned now. Good.

Was the court's decision, not Abhisit's

[siampolee]

Better than Thaksins take on democracy , where prominent defence lawyers vanish with nary a trace.

Suspected drug dealers summarily executed and Muslim protesters suffocated.

Witnesses in cases against Thaksin suddenly dying .

Prefer the current democracy myself.

[Oberkommando]

Let's just say that here we see a legal system properly at work.

Properly at work for some, but not for others.

[Oberkommando]

Better than Thaksins take on democracy , where prominent defence lawyers vanish with nary a trace.

Suspected drug dealers summarily executed and Muslim protesters suffocated.

Witnesses in cases against Thaksin suddenly dying .

Prefer the current democracy myself.

I prefer having the winners of general elections make those kinds of decisions, rather than those appointed by parliament when others are removed by the military/courts/protesters.

I'm a bit of a stickler for elections, see, and I doesn't much care for military involvement in politics neither.

I liked the fact that Thaksin kept the crime rates down too, now they are spiralling back out of control.

[jdinasia]

Better than Thaksins take on democracy , where prominent defence lawyers vanish with nary a trace.

Suspected drug dealers summarily executed and Muslim protesters suffocated.

Witnesses in cases against Thaksin suddenly dying .

Prefer the current democracy myself.

I prefer having the winners of general elections make those kinds of decisions, rather than those appointed by parliament when others are removed by the military/courts/protesters.

I'm a bit of a stickler for elections, see, and I doesn't much care for military involvement in politics neither.

I liked the fact that Thaksin kept the crime rates down too, now they are spiralling back out of control.

Did I read your reply correctly?

You prefer to have winners of general elections (even if the win was fraudulent) to be the ones ordering extrajudicial murders? You really think the crime rate is worse now than under Thaksin? Feel free to ignore the realities of a parliamentary democracy .. and just deal with the sour grapes.

Amazing Thailand!

[rubl]

Let's just say that here we see a legal system properly at work.

Properly at work for some, but not for others.

I guess like me you mourn the lack of justice for the common red-shirts who are still studiously ignored. Protests with main topic 'free our leaders' where it would be so very simply to just say 'free our people'

[Oberkommando]

Did I read your reply correctly?

You prefer to have winners of general elections (even if the win was fraudulent) to be the ones ordering extrajudicial murders? You really think the crime rate is worse now than under Thaksin? Feel free to ignore the realities of a parliamentary democracy .. and just deal with the sour grapes.

Amazing Thailand!

The fairest elections ever in Thai history in 2001 and 2005 were not fraudulent. That's just being silly. Or worse, ignorant of Thai political history.

I prefer elected politicians to make policy and if that policy includes a highly popular and condoned (important part) extrajudicial purge of drug dealers and other undesirables then that is their prerogative.

The crime rate is far worse now than at any time under Thaksin, not including the conflict in the South which has gotten out of control and is now at an all time high for murders and bombings.

That's the first time I've heard my objection to military involvement in politics being labelled "sour grapes" though, you have obviously mistaken me for a Thaksin supporter.

[whybother]

I prefer having the winners of general elections make those kinds of decisions, rather than those appointed by parliament when others are removed by the military/courts/protesters.

I'm a bit of a stickler for elections, see, and I doesn't much care for military involvement in politics neither.

I liked the fact that Thaksin kept the crime rates down too, now they are spiralling back out of control.

Maybe you should check up on how Samak became PM. The PPP didn't win the election. The PPP cobbled enough MPs together, and then in parliament, those (a majority) MPs appointed (elected) Samak as PM. Some of those MPs campaigned before election that they wouldn't support the PPP.

Even after the PPP were disbanded, the PTP (ex-PPP MPs) were still in government. They could have called a general election, but they chose to go to the parliament again to elected a new PM (as Somchai was elected by a majority of MPs). But they couldn't hold their coalition together, so Abhisit was elected instead.

[Oberkommando]

I prefer having the winners of general elections make those kinds of decisions, rather than those appointed by parliament when others are removed by the military/courts/protesters.

I'm a bit of a stickler for elections, see, and I doesn't much care for military involvement in politics neither.

I liked the fact that Thaksin kept the crime rates down too, now they are spiralling back out of control.

Maybe you should check up on how Samak became PM. The PPP didn't win the election. The PPP cobbled enough MPs together, and then in parliament, those (a majority) MPs appointed (elected) Samak as PM. Some of those MPs campaigned before election that they wouldn't support the PPP.

Even after the PPP were disbanded, the PTP (ex-PPP MPs) were still in government. They could have called a general election, but they chose to go to the parliament again to elected a new PM (as Somchai was elected by a majority of MPs). But they couldn't hold their coalition together, so Abhisit was elected instead.

You left out the coalition with banned Newin, the military urging the Somchai administration to step down, the PAD airport takeover which led to that event and a multitude of other factors which were at play there.

I've no need to check on how Samak came into office, I am fully aware of how it was achieved.

Cheers.

[Oberkommando]

Better than Thaksins take on democracy , where prominent defence lawyers vanish with nary a trace.

Suspected drug dealers summarily executed and Muslim protesters suffocated.

Witnesses in cases against Thaksin suddenly dying .

Prefer the current democracy myself.

Meet the new boss same same as the old boss.

[jdinasia]

You left out the coalition with banned Newin, the military urging the Somchai administration to step down, the PAD airport takeover which led to that event and a multitude of other factors which were at play there.

I've no need to check on how Samak came into office, I am fully aware of how it was achieved.

Cheers.

The "Friends of Newin" were in the PPP before they left, I assume you had no objections to them being there, If you did then the issue of PPP ever legitimately leading the country comes into question, so that rules out the Newin objection.

The military had nothing to do with Somchai stepping down --- since he didn't step down. He was tossed out for electoral fraud.

The PAD airport rally didn't lead to any event. A court ruling banning the PPP did.

Abhisit came into power exactly the same way that Somchai did ... a vote from the only people in Thailand that directly elect PM's --- parliament.

[jdinasia]

I can't believe it but I think ober actually says he condones extra0judicial murders as long as they are popular?

The he may as well accept the coup as it was widely popular.

[whybother]

You left out the coalition with banned Newin, the military urging the Somchai administration to step down, the PAD airport takeover which led to that event and a multitude of other factors which were at play there.

I've no need to check on how Samak came into office, I am fully aware of how it was achieved.

Cheers.

Newin seemed OK when he was backing the PPP.

The courts were going to dump Somchai anyway because the PPP were caught red handed handing over cash for electoral fraud. The PAD airport takeover was initially to stop Somchai from using the airport. The court case was going on regardless.

If you are fully aware of how Samak came to office, why are you complaining about PMs being appointed by parliament?

[Oberkommando]

You left out the coalition with banned Newin, the military urging the Somchai administration to step down, the PAD airport takeover which led to that event and a multitude of other factors which were at play there.

I've no need to check on how Samak came into office, I am fully aware of how it was achieved.

Cheers.

The "Friends of Newin" were in the PPP before they left, I assume you had no objections to them being there, If you did then the issue of PPP ever legitimately leading the country comes into question, so that rules out the Newin objection.

The military had nothing to do with Somchai stepping down --- since he didn't step down. He was tossed out for electoral fraud.

The PAD airport rally didn't lead to any event. A court ruling banning the PPP did.

Abhisit came into power exactly the same way that Somchai did ... a vote from the only people in Thailand that directly elect PM's --- parliament.

The military was urging the Somchai government to step down during the takeover of the airport by the PAD and as a consequence undermined the government.

It had everything to do with the court's decision at that time also and was a major factor in the shift in the balance of power including Newin's deal with Suthep.

Abhisit was already the head of his political party, so the process of him becoming PM was entirely different.

Happy to help.

[Oberkommando]

You left out the coalition with banned Newin, the military urging the Somchai administration to step down, the PAD airport takeover which led to that event and a multitude of other factors which were at play there.

I've no need to check on how Samak came into office, I am fully aware of how it was achieved.

Cheers.

Newin seemed OK when he was backing the PPP.

The courts were going to dump Somchai anyway because the PPP were caught red handed handing over cash for electoral fraud. The PAD airport takeover was initially to stop Somchai from using the airport. The court case was going on regardless.

If you are fully aware of how Samak came to office, why are you complaining about PMs being appointed by parliament?

The airport takeover by the PAD was to force the court into making the desired decision, let's not be silly here.

Who was complaining about PMs being elected by parliament? Not I. It is the lack of a general election that bothers me.

And Newin has never been ok, he's one of the biggest gangsters in the country. At least he wasn't banned by the courts when Thaksin was courting him. The fact he is makes the dealings with this government even more odious.

Happy to help.

[jdinasia]

Ober

The PAD airport rally was to block Somchai .. not force change. Change was 100% going to happen with the video evidence against PPP. You may have come up with the idea that somehow that sped the court decision up .. if so,,, good for them.

Newin WAS banned when PPP (Thaksin's proxy party 100%) courted him after TRT was disbanded ... making him as "odious" as you say from the day his faction joined PPP. He was no more odious (in fact far less so) when BJT joined the current coalition. He wasn't hiding under anyone's skirts, and the by-elections has supported BJT. By your reasoning above that makes him beyond any repudiation.

[Emptyset]

I can't believe it but I think ober actually says he condones extra0judicial murders as long as they are popular?

The he may as well accept the coup as it was widely popular.

How do you know it was "widely popular"? I doubt it was as popular as the war on drugs, which had 97% approval rates (or in the 90s anyway). Anyway, I agree with you, not everything should be judged on whether it's popular, or whether it benefits the majority (even if the minority suffer), although I do strongly believe election results should be respected.

[Insight]

Anyway, it's obvious they've been released now because house will be dissolved soon enough so there's no reason for red shirts to consider a protracted protest. I think they'll continue protesting up until the election, but what happens after the election will be more interesting.

Sounds like you're anticipating the reds (Phua Thai) loosing with that response. Not likely they'll continue protesting if they win...?

So in what way will things become more interesting?

[jayjay0]

Better than Thaksins take on democracy , where prominent defence lawyers vanish with nary a trace.

Suspected drug dealers summarily executed and Muslim protesters suffocated.

Witnesses in cases against Thaksin suddenly dying .

Prefer the current democracy myself.

I prefer having the winners of general elections make those kinds of decisions, rather than those appointed by parliament when others are removed by the military/courts/protesters.

I'm a bit of a stickler for elections, see, and I doesn't much care for military involvement in politics neither.

I liked the fact that Thaksin kept the crime rates down too, now they are spiralling back out of control.

If you don't like the Parliamentary system you might try the states. They have the closest system to letting the winner become president. Personally I don't like it either but I like you am just a guest here. It is there choice.

As you can tell I have no evangelical calling to make them what I would like. I just sit back and enjoy life here.

As I understand it Thaksin kept the crime rate down by legalizing killing.

[Nisa]

Better than Thaksins take on democracy , where prominent defence lawyers vanish with nary a trace.

Suspected drug dealers summarily executed and Muslim protesters suffocated.

Witnesses in cases against Thaksin suddenly dying .

Prefer the current democracy myself.

I prefer having the winners of general elections make those kinds of decisions, rather than those appointed by parliament when others are removed by the military/courts/protesters.

I'm a bit of a stickler for elections, see, and I doesn't much care for military involvement in politics neither.

I liked the fact that Thaksin kept the crime rates down too, now they are spiralling back out of control.

If you don't like the Parliamentary system you might try the states. They have the closest system to letting the winner become president. Personally I don't like it either but I like you am just a guest here. It is there choice.

As you can tell I have no evangelical calling to make them what I would like. I just sit back and enjoy life here.

As I understand it Thaksin kept the crime rate down by legalizing killing.

In the states somebody can become president without ever winning any kind of national election (Gerald Ford) and the powers within government can certainly toss out a corrupt president regardless of election results. Not to mention the supreme court has demonstrated the ability to make election tallies a moot point.

Edited February 22, 2011 by Nisa

[fma]

What's next? Red shirts will rally to ask for .......... (put your suggestion here)

1. Censorship against flippant farangs who do not have a clue
2. Fair treatment
3. Freedom of speech (flippant farangs excluded)
4. An election
5. ?
6. a couple of requests that probably would be illegal
7. .. almost forgot: Democracy
8. A professional police force
9. A professional military
10. A professional parliament
11. A professional ...
12. Thaksin declared as a saint, followed by a binding statement from the subject NEVER to enter politics again.
13. Newin as new manager for Chelsea (proven track record from Buri Ram PEA using the check book)
14. Abhisit as governor of Narathiwat
15. Kasit to Oxford for political studies and real world assertion
16. Chamlong to Tibet for meditation
17. Sondhi L. for medical/psychological examination
18. A three week strike by the Isaan population in Bangkok and Pattaya (funded by TS, before his binding statement)

[jdinasia]

I can't believe it but I think ober actually says he condones extra0judicial murders as long as they are popular?

The he may as well accept the coup as it was widely popular.

How do you know it was "widely popular"? I doubt it was as popular as the war on drugs, which had 97% approval rates (or in the 90s anyway). Anyway, I agree with you, not everything should be judged on whether it's popular, or whether it benefits the majority (even if the minority suffer), although I do strongly believe election results should be respected.

Right ---

Elections that work SHOULD be respected. Then again when an election is rigged ....

TRT and PPP went down for NOT being democratic. Remember they could have called for fresh elections even then but didn't.

You will have to show me a popularity rating in the 90's AFTER it was known that people not involved in the drug trade were murdered, and even then it wouldn't matter.

[bkkdave11]

Wow, so many reasons this bunch should NOT have been released out into the wild... hard to know where to even begin. I can understand the case for Weng and Korkaew, but Nuttawut? The guy who publicly called for Bangkok to be set on fire and promised to take 'full responsibility'? Kwanchai who took part in the murderous clash on Wippawadee-Rangsit Road (then had his famous Big Mac to take the edge off)?

But the biggest concern is that none of them will ever see the inside of a jail cell again -- that the 9 months they spent in remand was their de facto sentence. This is the scary thing.

If this is a play by the gov't, the Democrats had better be dam_n confident of victory. If PT comes to power, no way will an actual trial against this Malevolent Seven be allowed to proceed.

[Emptyset]

Anyway, it's obvious they've been released now because house will be dissolved soon enough so there's no reason for red shirts to consider a protracted protest. I think they'll continue protesting up until the election, but what happens after the election will be more interesting.

Sounds like you're anticipating the reds (Phua Thai) loosing with that response. Not likely they'll continue protesting if they win...?

So in what way will things become more interesting?

Yes, I do think PT will lose. I mean, it'll be more interesting in the sense that, if the election is as fair as other Thai elections (and there's no reason to think it won't be), if the reds continue to protest, they're quite clearly standing against democracy, not for it, as they claim. Would they be willing to do that? Will they accept the result? Of course, they might still protest on specific issues like 'justice for the dead' or have occasional remembrance rallies or whatever, but I'm interested in whether they'll contest the election result and try to bring down the govt.

[Insight]

Anyway, it's obvious they've been released now because house will be dissolved soon enough so there's no reason for red shirts to consider a protracted protest. I think they'll continue protesting up until the election, but what happens after the election will be more interesting.

Sounds like you're anticipating the reds (Phua Thai) loosing with that response. Not likely they'll continue protesting if they win...?

So in what way will things become more interesting?

Yes, I do think PT will lose. I mean, it'll be more interesting in the sense that, if the election is as fair as other Thai elections (and there's no reason to think it won't be), if the reds continue to protest, they're quite clearly standing against democracy, not for it, as they claim. Would they be willing to do that? Will they accept the result? Of course, they might still protest on specific issues like 'justice for the dead' or have occasional remembrance rallies or whatever, but I'm interested in whether they'll contest the election result and try to bring down the govt.

Thanks They may cite that the election took place under a constitution they never ageed upon, but they sort of blew that argument when they failed to take part in the voting for the ammendments.

[Buchholz]

With the leaders released and with no need for any further rallies, it'll be a shame we'll miss seeing these democracy advocates :

An anti-government "red shirt" supporter sits among policemen as he waits for news about the movement's leaders outside the prison in Bangkok February 22, 2011. A Thai court granted bail on Tuesday to seven anti-government "red shirt" leaders charged with terrorism

REUTERS

[bkkdave11]

if the reds continue to protest, they're quite clearly standing against democracy, not for it, as they claim. Would they be willing to do that? Will they accept the result? Of course, they might still protest on specific issues like 'justice for the dead' or have occasional remembrance rallies or whatever, but I'm interested in whether they'll contest the election result and try to bring down the govt.

Sure they will. Red shirts have never actually demonstrated for democracy. They may have used the word but for many of them democracy means bringing back the Thaksin regime -- and more broadly, 'democracy is what WE want -- and we will demand what we want until WE get it". Reds can & will continue protesting if Dems win, claiming Dems created an uneven playing field with Constitutional Amendments & finding any excuse to assail new gov't -- for instance, using the old trick of taking what their opponents say & turning it back on them. "Abhisit bought the election!" "Elites manipulated voters" etc... -- because in Thailand nothing is transparent & any consipracy seems plausible.

The problem is culture of angry entitlement runs deep in red shirt movement & it will not be changed by anything as insignificant as a free election. So long as THEIR guy & their people are not in control, they will protest, disrupt, violate. They are like a shark that can't stop moving. If they quiet down, they die.

[jayjay0]

You left out the coalition with banned Newin, the military urging the Somchai administration to step down, the PAD airport takeover which led to that event and a multitude of other factors which were at play there.

I've no need to check on how Samak came into office, I am fully aware of how it was achieved.

Cheers.

The "Friends of Newin" were in the PPP before they left, I assume you had no objections to them being there, If you did then the issue of PPP ever legitimately leading the country comes into question, so that rules out the Newin objection.

The military had nothing to do with Somchai stepping down --- since he didn't step down. He was tossed out for electoral fraud.

The PAD airport rally didn't lead to any event. A court ruling banning the PPP did.

Abhisit came into power exactly the same way that Somchai did ... a vote from the only people in Thailand that directly elect PM's --- parliament.

If you have been following Oberkommando posts you will note that he knows how Thailand elects it's leader's He just dosen't like the system. From whart I have been able to figure out he is a man on a mission. He just isn't sure what it is.In the future I am quite sure he would appreciate it if you would stop posting truth backed up by facts.

[jayjay0]

Better than Thaksins take on democracy , where prominent defence lawyers vanish with nary a trace.

Suspected drug dealers summarily executed and Muslim protesters suffocated.

Witnesses in cases against Thaksin suddenly dying .

Prefer the current democracy myself.

I prefer having the winners of general elections make those kinds of decisions, rather than those appointed by parliament when others are removed by the military/courts/protesters.

I'm a bit of a stickler for elections, see, and I doesn't much care for military involvement in politics neither.

I liked the fact that Thaksin kept the crime rates down too, now they are spiralling back out of control.

If you don't like the Parliamentary system you might try the states. They have the closest system to letting the winner become president. Personally I don't like it either but I like you am just a guest here. It is there choice.

As you can tell I have no evangelical calling to make them what I would like. I just sit back and enjoy life here.

As I understand it Thaksin kept the crime rate down by legalizing killing.

In the states somebody can become president without ever winning any kind of national election (Gerald Ford) and the powers within government can certainly toss out a corrupt president regardless of election results. Not to mention the supreme court has demonstrated the ability to make election tallies a moot point.

True but it is as I said the closest to the winner becoming President.

[Emptyset]

I can't believe it but I think ober actually says he condones extra0judicial murders as long as they are popular?

The he may as well accept the coup as it was widely popular.

How do you know it was "widely popular"? I doubt it was as popular as the war on drugs, which had 97% approval rates (or in the 90s anyway). Anyway, I agree with you, not everything should be judged on whether it's popular, or whether it benefits the majority (even if the minority suffer), although I do strongly believe election results should be respected.

Right ---

Elections that work SHOULD be respected. Then again when an election is rigged ....

TRT and PPP went down for NOT being democratic. Remember they could have called for fresh elections even then but didn't.

You will have to show me a popularity rating in the 90's AFTER it was known that people not involved in the drug trade were murdered, and even then it wouldn't matter.

Yes, I realise the poll results on the WOD were distorted by government propaganda, but then even some middle class self-described "liberal" friends still support the WOD. And they weren't even affected by it. The poll cited here suggests that people supported the WOD even though they were aware of the death squads:

"Public opinion on the WOD was both supportive and distressed. In a poll of over 8000 respondents from 800 communities, 90 per cent expressed satisfaction with the WOD and yet 39 per cent expressed fear that they, or someone they knew, might fall victim to death squads (Suan Dusit Poll 2003)" http://sovereignmyth.blogspot.com/2010/06/war-on-drugs.html (I highly recommend reading the whole piece).

Why do you keep insisting the election results were fraudulent or rigged? PPP were dissolved because of the actions of one MP, not because of any systematic attempt to rig the elections. Actually, if you read Pasuk's paper on the 2007 election, you'll see that any attempt to rig it (or at least 'influence' the result) came quite clearly from the junta: http://www.ari.nus.edu.sg/docs/wps/wps10_144.pdf

They could've dissolved house after they were dissolved? Actually, I'm not sure they could. I believe it's the job of the PM to dissolve house, and acting PM was Chavarat - who was a 'friend' of Newin, of course. Someone said it was actually the job of the house speaker, who knows, in any case, the house speaker was Chai Chidchop, so likely they'd have had no luck there either. They could've dissolved house before their dissolution, but no one wants to have a dissolution case hanging over them with house dissolved (as the problem joining new parties and timeframe etc). But maybe you're right, maybe they thought they could win and that's why they didn't do it.