Thai PM Abhisit Says He May Be British

[Nisa]

Section 14. A person of Thai nationality, who was born of an alien father or mother and has acquired the nationality of the father or mother according to the law on nationality of the father or mother, or a person who acquired Thai nationality under Section 12 paragraph two or Section 12/1 (2) and (3) is required, if he desires to retain his other nationality, to make a declaration of his intention to renounce his Thai nationality within one year after his attaining the age of 20 years, according to such forms and in the manner as prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.

If, after consideration of the said intention, the Minister is of opinion that there is reasonable ground to believe that such person may acquire the nationality of his father, mother, or a foreign nationality, he shall grant permission, except in cases where Thailand is engaged in armed conflict or is in state of war, he may order the dispensation of any renunciation of Thai nationality.

Section 17. With respect to a person who has Thai nationality, by reason of his having been born within the Thai Kingdom of an alien father or mother, his Thai nationality may be revoked if it appears that:

(1) He has resided in a foreign country, of which his father or mother has or used to have nationality, for a consecutive period of more than five years as from the day of his becoming sui juris;

(2) There is evidence to show that he makes use of the nationality of his father, mother, or of a foreign nationality, or that he has an active interest in the nationality of his father, mother, or in a foreign nationality;

(3) He commits any act prejudicial to the security or conflicting with the interests of the State, or amounting to an insult to the nation;

(4) He commits any act contrary to public order or good morals.

The Minister in the event of (1) or (2), and the Court in the event of (3) or (4) and upon request of the public prosecutor, shall order the revocation of Thai nationality.

This all seems to have to do with being born of a foreign parent and nothing to do with being born in a foreign land to Thai parents. I know his father is surely Thai but not sure about his mother. There are also a number of other holes in these laws as they would apply to him but I think this alone would make this not apply to him.

Edited February 25, 2011 by Nisa

[Soutpeel]

The Land Code is unclear on this point. It specifies that aliens cannot own land, except in certain circumstances, but it does not cover the case of aliens who are also Thai.

......If the Alien concerned is also Thai.....they are not an alien's...they are Thai......I would suspect this is the reason it is not addressed in the Land code.. ...they are trying to infer a dual national has less rights than a "single" nationality citizen.....they are either citizens of a particular country or they are not....there is no middle ground on this

I agree with you the Land office official concerned is talking through his arse

[tw25rw]

I have British and Australian but for years I never renewed the British passport. I used to just get a 6 month stamp in my Aussie passport on entry to the UK. It even says work prohibited but of course I have a British national insurance number so just carried on as normal. For sure if the shit hit the fan for the present top man he wouldn't need to seek asylum as he is a UK citizen when he wants to be. Then again this could turn him into a wanted man.

I believe you could even not bother with the 6 month stamp and just carry the expired UK one and legally work on the UK one. It's expired as a travel document, but not as an identity document unless it has been formally cancelled.

[Insight]

Was Pinochet British ?

Being British will not help Abhisit.

And it's clear it won't impede him either.

[tw25rw]

That has been the case since 1983. http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/britishcitizenship/othernationality/Britishcitizenship/borninukorqualifyingterritory/

Thanks, I hadn't realised that as it didn't apply to me when I was researching this last year..

[tw25rw]

Was Pinochet British ?

Being British will not help Abhisit.

There is little to no evidence that Abhisit ordered the journalist be shot. There was loads of evidence against Pinochet.

[Voice]

Does his parent hold British citizenship while they’re lived here many years ago in the UK? If they did it could make a lot of different!

[Thai at Heart]

Does his parent hold British citizenship while they’re lived here many years ago in the UK? If they did it could make a lot of different!

Make absolutely no difference at all, as long as they had Thai citizenship, of which there is no evidence to show that they don't.

The funny thing is, everyone assumes that Abhisit didn't come back at all after he was born. As far as I know, he went to Satit school at Chula Uni, and then was a Kings Scholar to Eton.

[samran]

Section 14. A person of Thai nationality, who was born of an alien father or mother and has acquired the nationality of the father or mother according to the law on nationality of the father or mother, or a person who acquired Thai nationality under Section 12 paragraph two or Section 12/1 (2) and (3) is required, if he desires to retain his other nationality, to make a declaration of his intention to renounce his Thai nationality within one year after his attaining the age of 20 years, according to such forms and in the manner as prescribed in the Ministerial Regulations.

If, after consideration of the said intention, the Minister is of opinion that there is reasonable ground to believe that such person may acquire the nationality of his father, mother, or a foreign nationality, he shall grant permission, except in cases where Thailand is engaged in armed conflict or is in state of war, he may order the dispensation of any renunciation of Thai nationality.

Section 17. With respect to a person who has Thai nationality, by reason of his having been born within the Thai Kingdom of an alien father or mother, his Thai nationality may be revoked if it appears that:

(1) He has resided in a foreign country, of which his father or mother has or used to have nationality, for a consecutive period of more than five years as from the day of his becoming sui juris;

(2) There is evidence to show that he makes use of the nationality of his father, mother, or of a foreign nationality, or that he has an active interest in the nationality of his father, mother, or in a foreign nationality;

(3) He commits any act prejudicial to the security or conflicting with the interests of the State, or amounting to an insult to the nation;

(4) He commits any act contrary to public order or good morals.

The Minister in the event of (1) or (2), and the Court in the event of (3) or (4) and upon request of the public prosecutor, shall order the revocation of Thai nationality.

This all seems to have to do with being born of a foreign parent and nothing to do with being born in a foreign land to Thai parents. I know his father is surely Thai but not sure about his mother. There are also a number of other holes in these laws as they would apply to him but I think this alone would make this not apply to him.

Yeah, it seems that Dick just pulled out any text which 'looked' like it forbid dual nationality, without reading it in any particular depth.

- As you say Nisa, there is nothing in the law which prevents a Thai born person (to two Thai parents) who happens to get a foreign nationality by being born on foreign soil (US, Australia pre-1986, UK Pre-1983)

- Section 14 above only applies to those born with Thai citizenship who acquires another citizenship from a foreign parent. Closer reading reveals it only gives the option to these people of renoucing citizenship between ages 20 and 21. There is no penalty anywhere else in the legislation for those do do not chose to renounce citizenship.

Indeed, the section is badly worded, as it implies that Thailand has power in stripping away a dual citizens foreign nationality ("is required, if he desires to retain his other nationality, to make a declaration of his intention to renounce his Thai nationality"). The reality is that if I desire to keep my foreign nationality, Thailand has no power to take it away from me.

Section 17 often confuses people. The important text here is "a person who has Thai nationality, by reason of his having been born within the Thai Kingdom of an alien father or mother".

If you think about it for a second, all Thai luuk krueng get their Thai citizenship by being born to a Thai mother or father. The foreign parent DOES NOT pass on Thai citizenship to the child. In fact 99.999% of Thai citizens get their citizenship by being born to at least one Thai parent. Leuk Krueng included.

Section 17 only applies to people who received Thai citizenhip from a foreign parent. How does that happen? Well when both foreign parents have PR in Thailand, their children are considered Thai nationals at birth.

So Dick, section 17 only applies to the 0.001% of people who were born to both parents with PR, in Thailand, and then do all those things that are mentioned in Section 17 (parts 1-4)

Edited February 25, 2011 by samran

[brianb1944]

He was born British and became Thai when?

At birth by virtue of his parents Thai Nationality, so he was born with dual nationality.

[stepenwolf1958]

Can a Thai holding dual citizenship be PM? That's the crux.

By Thai law, for positions in politic life, can be a candidate any one who has a Thai citizenship. If for the PM position is the same law, things are clear.

[Robby nz]

As I posted on th other thread on this subject

This from the UK registrar of births deaths and marriages:

A birth certificate is not evidence of identity and certificates printed since 1993 contain a warning to this effect. All Government departments are aware of this and, although a birth certificate may be used as part of verification procedures, a certificate will not be accepted as sole evidence of identity.

Section 31 and 32 of the Births and Deaths Registration Act 1953 legislation provides for any person to apply for a certified copy of a register entry providing they can supply sufficient information to identify the entry.

The General Register Office works closely with government departments who use certificates to help them in tackling the fraudulent use of certificates.

If you suspect your certificate is being used fraudulently you should contact the government department you believe has accepted the certificate as proof of identity or alternatively the local police .

Regards

(Name removed)

General Register Office

So the bit of paper Jatuporn was waving about does not even prove the PM's identity let alone his citizenship.

The question now should be.

Are Amsterdam and the reds using the Birth Cert they hold fraudulantly?

To my non legal way of thinking they are missrepresenting to the Thai public that the Birth cert they obtained is proof of british citizenship when it is no such thing.

Therefore they are using this document in a fraudulant manner.

If that is the case the PM has every right to report them to the British authorities.

[nong38]

Is the best attack can the opposition can come up with? Would you by a used car from Jataphorn Promise All?

The PM has Thai parents and was born in England, has dual nationality options like several England cricketers, whats the problem, he seems a good man to me and is looking after Thailands interests, maybe J P should take note and think about putting Thailands interested first instead of his own and that other well known collector citizenships.

[tw25rw]

So the bit of paper Jatuporn was waving about does not even prove the PM's identity let alone his citizenship.

In Britain, it would be proof of entitlement, but obviously you can't identify yourself with it. To obtain a passport or benefits, you would have to provide current ID and the birth cert.

[TAWP]

Hahahaha! The Thai PM is a farang!!!! Very stealth, but the British invasion has already happened

Is he alowed to buy land?

that's a great question softgeorge

if his name is on a chanote then he must be Thai or maybe he slipped someone 1000 at the land office.........

I was curious because we wanted to put land in my sons name. When the land office saw his name which is farang they asked if he had dual citizenship. They said he would have to give his Australian citizenship to own land in Thailand. If Ashbit owns land here then that would be double standars for the eleite as opposed to the common farang in the same situation.

That just sounds like another case of a local officer making up the rules as he goes along as he 'feels' there should be an issue.

[IanPrince99]

Just imagine. What if Mark is born to a Cambodian parrents, and now have Thai citizenship? We know that my Thai PM is the pass are born from Chinese alien parent(s). Will Hun Sen love him more? Will he fight more for the 4.6 km2? Just imagine. or should we make it a law that dual national is OK, as long as the other national is not Cambodian (or Burmese, or Laos, or worst, Montenegrin).

[MAJIC]

Can a Thai holding dual citizenship be PM? That's the crux.

Those Reds who think Thaksin can come back, and step into the PM's job again, clearly believe that it is OK !

He never actually held a British passport. He's a British citizen under British law because he was born there.

Although his denials are rather vague, he is not a British citizen unless he applies/has applied to be one; simply because he is eligible to be one does not make him one. That he has apparently never had a British passport is irelevant to his being British (or not British).

He might be eligible to claim UK-citizenship, on the grounds of where he was born. But if he hasn't claimed it, and doesn't have a British-passport, he would need a visa to enter the UK, which is what he says he needs.

This is also supported by his claim to have paid fees as an overseas-student at university, a British-citizen who had lived there for the previous 2 years (nowadays 3 years) would have paid the local-rate, not the higher overseas-rate.

Jatuporn & Amsterdam have so-far failed, to prove their claim that he is a British-citizen, and have only shown evidence that he was born there, which has always been widely-known.

The phrase which describes this is 'storm in a tea-cup' !

Succinctly put!

[finnomick]

Can a Thai holding dual citizenship be PM? That's the crux.

Nothing in the constitution prohibits it.

From one of the links above.

"The Thai government does not allow its citizens to hold dual nationalities, except if the other country agrees to grant citizenship to that Thai person, in which case he/she can use that as well. If he/she uses the other citizenship to reside in Thailand, then they will be subject to the laws as they apply to foreigners. If he/she uses the Thai citizenship, they have the same rights as normal Thai citizens."

" If he/she uses the other citizenship to reside in Thailand, then they will be subject to the laws as they apply to foreigners " -- so, being a British citizen as I am residing in Thailand, PM Abhisit will have to have a visa re-newed annually, provide details of income etc., etc., will have to report to immigration every 90 days, cannot own land or property ( unless it's a condominium ) etc., etc. Dual citizenship, more like dual standards. Don't want to knock you Mr.Abhisit, I think you are a decent chap and have the interests of Thailand at heart for which I applaud you but shouldn't the ' rules ' in force apply to everyone ?

Edited February 25, 2011 by finnomick

[metisdead]

Another reminder:

Speculation, comments and discussion of either a political or personal nature are not allowed when discussing HM The King or the Royal family, as such posts and replies have been removed.

This is the third time in this topic I've posted about references to HM the King. No matter how veiled the insinuations are, do not go there.

2) Not to express disrespect of the King of Thailand or anyone else in the Thai royal family, whether living or deceased, nor to criticize the monarchy as an institution. Speculation, comments and discussion of either a political or personal nature are not allowed when discussing HM The King or the Royal family. Discussion of the lese majeste law or lese majeste cases is permitted on the forum, providing no comment or speculation is made referencing the royal family. To breach this rule will result in immediate ban.

From this point on, anymore veiled insinuations/speculations, suspensions will be issued.

[Preman]

You cannot give up or renounce British Citizenship it is always available under whatever mechanism that you obtained it in the first place

Legally, - very correct. This whole thing is BS. He was born to two Thai parents. He is Thai.

At the age of 18 - Thai children who hold two citizenships have to make a decision to give up one those, - in the eyes of Thai law.

Side note..... I hope that my kids make a good decision.......

In order to qualify for Thai citizenship. - let alone the highest office in the country, - - it is obvious that the PM chose to be Thai, - otherwise he could not be in office

So, - what is all this BS about? The British citizenship is always available to him if he chooses to apply for that - because he was born there.

How can something so simple be turned into something so political. Thailand? No.... everywhere in this world. Who gives a ....s.......h.......i.....t... where people are born.

It does not matter. Let the man try to govern and help this country... rather than have to expend his energy on such BS.

I am not a great fan of any Thai politician, - but this guy is probably the best hope Thailand has had in long time. Well educated... and trying his best.

I sincerely hope that he prevails over the other b... s.... d...s .

[Preman]

Can a Thai holding dual citizenship be PM? That's the crux.

He never actually held a British passport. He's a British citizen under British law because he was born there. Outside of the UK he isn't considered British because there has never been in posession of a UK citizenship document (passport or ID card). Ultimately, it's up to him in that case.

Precisely:

Having British Citizenship given to you Unsolicited,is vastly different from actually applying for it ,and getting it,so PM Abhisit was not lying.

Not having applied for it, is extremely important,as you can't relinquish what you never received, or were aware of.......or received any Confirmation Documentation.......or indeed agreed to British Citizenship..........End of Story.

Out of the string of all of this meaningless BS, - you have been the most meaningful.... Thank you!

[stepenwolf1958]

Can a Thai holding dual citizenship be PM? That's the crux.

Nothing in the constitution prohibits it.

Wrong. Very wrong. Only people with THAI citizenship can be elected for political position in Thailand. I found it reading about who can apply for position of SO SO and SO JO here. it is like western systems have Councillors for municipality level. This is the fact. Their law says so. May be, just perhaps, it is not the case for PM position???

[Steely Dan]

Quite a funny storm in a teacup this pandering to the same unsavoury nationalistic prejudices that the PAD are so obviously courting. It does explain how Abhisit seems to conduct himself with a degree of dignity and never seems to personally get tarred with the corruption brush. Perhaps if Abhisit is indeed British then I can get to vote in the next Thai elections due to my British citizenship.

[samran]

You cannot give up or renounce British Citizenship it is always available under whatever mechanism that you obtained it in the first place

Legally, - very correct. This whole thing is BS. He was born to two Thai parents. He is Thai.

At the age of 18 - Thai children who hold two citizenships have to make a decision to give up one those, - in the eyes of Thai law.

Side note..... I hope that my kids make a good decision........

Preman, nothing under thai law says such a thing. There is no obligation to make a choice, and certainly not when they are 18. See my posting a couple of posts back in this thread.

[Ricardo]

Can a Thai holding dual citizenship be PM? That's the crux.

Nothing in the constitution prohibits it.

Wrong. Very wrong. Only people with THAI citizenship can be elected for political position in Thailand. I found it reading about who can apply for position of SO SO and SO JO here. it is like western systems have Councillors for municipality level. This is the fact. Their law says so. May be, just perhaps, it is not the case for PM position???

So do you claim that he doesn't have Thai citizenship ? Not even RA or Jatuporn have yet tried to claim that, it would clearly be ridiculous, even for them.

All they have proven, and which PM-Abhisit has freely agreed with, is that he was born to Thai parents in the UK, at a time when that used to confer the option to attempt to claim UK-citizenship. This is news ?

Meanwhile what does any of this have to do with improving life for the poor ? Not very much IMO.

[stepenwolf1958]

Can a Thai holding dual citizenship be PM? That's the crux.

Nothing in the constitution prohibits it.

Wrong. Very wrong. Only people with THAI citizenship can be elected for political position in Thailand. I found it reading about who can apply for position of SO SO and SO JO here. it is like western systems have Councillors for municipality level. This is the fact. Their law says so. May be, just perhaps, it is not the case for PM position???

So do you claim that he doesn't have Thai citizenship ? Not even RA or Jatuporn have yet tried to claim that, it would clearly be ridiculous, even for them.

All they have proven, and which PM-Abhisit has freely agreed with, is that he was born to Thai parents in the UK, at a time when that used to confer the option to attempt to claim UK-citizenship. This is news ?

Meanwhile what does any of this have to do with improving life for the poor ? Not very much IMO.

I didn't claim that. As i didn't see his Thai or British passport in media.

Yes, Jatuporn shoot blanks this time(as i can see he didn't show anything to prove PM is Brit)

But let me ask you what do you think why PM didn't show his THAI passport, so to make jatuporn as a clown? It would be piece of cake, don't you think so?

[Bagwan]

COOL!  There is some hope for me, first a few  smart moves then gather some influential friends,  form a political party with other fellow Brits and then get voted in.A good start reclaiming the empire  with Thailand being the first country.    

Please return to Mother Earth. Britain's far flung empire has, thank goodness, been far flung. Who in their right mind would want to get involved in the chaos that is Africa again?

As has been pointed out to Thailand over the border dispute about ownership of a pile of bricks, you have tacitly accepted the border for years, so live with it. Abhisit has been recognised not only as a Thai citizen enjoying the full rights of suffrage, but eligible to lead a major political party. The red rabble should live with it, it is too late to winge now.

[dumpling]

COOL! There is some hope for me, first a few smart moves then gather some influential friends, form a political party with other fellow Brits and then get voted in.A good start reclaiming the empire with Thailand being the first country.

Please return to Mother Earth. Britain's far flung empire has, thank goodness, been far flung. Who in their right mind would want to get involved in the chaos that is Africa again?

As has been pointed out to Thailand over the border dispute about ownership of a pile of bricks, you have tacitly accepted the border for years, so live with it. Abhisit has been recognised not only as a Thai citizen enjoying the full rights of suffrage, but eligible to lead a major political party. The red rabble should live with it, it is too late to winge now.

hahaha hooked one !!!!! its only a joke

[whybother]

I didn't claim that. As i didn't see his Thai or British passport in media.

mca: Can a Thai holding dual citizenship be PM? That's the crux.

TAWP: Nothing in the constitution prohibits it.

stepenwolf1958: Wrong. Very wrong. Only people with THAI citizenship can be elected for political position in Thailand.

There is nothing in the constitution that stops someone holding dual citizenship from being PM, as long as one of them is Thai.

Yes, Jatuporn shoot blanks this time(as i can see he didn't show anything to prove PM is Brit)

But let me ask you what do you think why PM didn't show his THAI passport, so to make jatuporn as a clown? It would be piece of cake, don't you think so?

No one is claiming that Abhisit isn't Thai.

Having dual citizenship would allow someone to have both a Thai and British passport. So showing his Thai passport would prove nothing.

[samran]

I didn't claim that. As i didn't see his Thai or British passport in media.

Yes, Jatuporn shoot blanks this time(as i can see he didn't show anything to prove PM is Brit)

But let me ask you what do you think why PM didn't show his THAI passport, so to make jatuporn as a clown? It would be piece of cake, don't you think so?

are you one of these 'birthers' too, you know, the nut bags who claim that Obama isn't an American citizen?