Mae Chi Takes Over Thai Buddhist Temple In India

[sabaijai]

Gender and religion: Where nuns fear to tread

A mae chi's takeover of a Thai Buddhist temple in India has brought the management of the facilities overseas and the role of female clergy to the fore

The controversy over a Thai Buddhist nun successfully petitioning an Indian court to gain control of a temple has raised broader questions surrounding the administration of temples overseas. It has also highlighted the ambiguous role nuns, or mae chi, face within the structure of Buddhism in Thailand.

A court in India's Bihar state recently ruled in favour of Mae Chi Ahree Pongsai, a nun in her seventies, who lodged a complaint requesting that she be allowed to replace Phra Khru Pariyat Thammawithet as head of the Thai Nalanda temple, 90km from the state capital of Patna. Mai Chi Ahree reportedly claimed that the former abbot, Phra Maha Tharntong, who died in 2007, had written in his will that if she came into conflict with his successor, she should seek assistance from India's courts to take over.

The news of Mae Chi Ahree's court success, made public following a visit to India by Culture Minister Nipit Intrasombat late last month, caused an uproar in Thai Buddhist circles.

continued here: http://www.bangkokpost.com/feature/religion/225067/gender-and-religion-where-nuns-fear-to-tread

[mike_rad]

That should stir things up a bit.

''Mae chi are barred from managing temples. Only monks, rising to the position of abbot, can manage them,''

Thai Buddhism is obsessed with the letter, ignoring the spirit.

BTW, that doesn't mention where the temple actually is, but it sounds like Bodh Gaya. I visited there some years ago. It's where the Bodhi Tree is, under which Gautama sat and attained enlightment.

[christiaan]

That should stir things up a bit.

''Mae chi are barred from managing temples. Only monks, rising to the position of abbot, can manage them,''

Thai Buddhism is obsessed with the letter, ignoring the spirit.

BTW, that doesn't mention where the temple actually is, but it sounds like Bodh Gaya. I visited there some years ago. It's where the Bodhi Tree is, under which Gautama sat and attained enlightment.

What do you mean by telling Thai Buddhism is obsessed wit the letter, ignoring the spirit?

[Brucenkhamen]

''Mae chi are barred from managing temples. Only monks, rising to the position of abbot, can manage them,''

I think the quoted source appears to have made several errors.

There were nuns at the time of the Buddha, he set the nuns order up himself.

There are several monasteries in Thailand where a mae chi is the head of the monastery, most are nun only monasteries but I know of one Wat Kow Tahm on Ko Phangngan where the head is a mae chi while there are monks in residence.

Edited March 6, 2011 by Brucenkhamen

[lungmi]

''Mae chi are barred from managing temples. Only monks, rising to the position of abbot, can manage them,''

I think the quoted source appears to have made several errors.

There were nuns at the time of the Buddha, he set the nuns order up himself.

There are several monasteries in Thailand where a mae chi is the head of the monastery, most are nun only monasteries but I know of one Wat Kow Tahm on Ko Phangngan where the head is a mae chi while there are monks in residence.

Mae Chi or ordained nun, a complicated story in Thailand, too complex.

http://www.congress-on-buddhist-women.org/

Mae Chi in Thailand have more and more honest places in Thailand.

My wife just finished a retreat (4 weeks) in a wonderful Wat in Thoen amphoe. The "leading" mae chi is "supervisor" for the novices, practical Dhamma Teaching (like a Mama in a kindergarten) and Teacher for the garden, the plants, the flowers, recycling, environment protection, Arts). Morning and Evening Chanting, all living beings together , some cats listen too.

The mae chi only have a small problem> they want babies. The solution: a home for orphans is projected.

/////////////

Other wats refuse mae chi with anachronistic arguments> monks cannot meditate when menstruating women stay in the wat. The blood is dirty.

Catholic celibacy is the same anachronism.

Jesus already refused this.

[rockyysdt]

Other wats refuse mae chi with anachronistic arguments> monks cannot meditate when menstruating women stay in the wat. The blood is dirty.

Catholic celibacy is the same anachronism.

Jesus already refused this.

Out of interest L.

Who claims that monks cannot meditate when menstruating women stay in a Wat?

Is that statement and reference to "blood is dirty" part of any scripture or does it appear in the Pali Canon?

If the woman is post menopausal (Mae Chi Ahree Pongsai), can they pull that excuse?

Edited March 7, 2011 by rockyysdt

[lungmi]

Other wats refuse mae chi with anachronistic arguments> monks cannot meditate when menstruating women stay in the wat. The blood is dirty.

Catholic celibacy is the same anachronism.

Jesus already refused this.

Out of interest L.

Who claims that monks cannot meditate when menstruating women stay in a Wat?

Is that statement and reference to "blood is dirty" part of any scripture or does it appear in the Pali Canon?

If the woman is post menopausal (Mae Chi Ahree Pongsai), can they pull that excuse?

No, it isn't part of the Scriptures, it's anachronistic in the context of Buddhism and the Teaching of Jesu too (celibacy).

The origin is that in many "original peoples" physical contact (to say sex is not correct) in the group is allowed. But with the menstruation the girl is woman, taboo, new rules

are applicated. In Thailand we have the black and blood magic as underground, most from Kampuchea, you can see the blood spilling orgies of the Reds last year in Bangkok.

And they had very active monks, and a fake Brahman too. Some wats use magic rituals in this lineage, logically no mae chi is accepted.

A monk who cannot meditate because of a menstruating woman, never can meditate with wisdom,.

He forgets that there are other females in the Wat (cats and dogs).

Edited March 7, 2011 by lungmi

[sabaijai]

''Mae chi are barred from managing temples. Only monks, rising to the position of abbot, can manage them,''

I think the quoted source appears to have made several errors.

There were nuns at the time of the Buddha, he set the nuns order up himself.

There are several monasteries in Thailand where a mae chi is the head of the monastery, most are nun only monasteries but I know of one Wat Kow Tahm on Ko Phangngan where the head is a mae chi while there are monks in residence.

Wat Khao Tham is a wat in name only. It is not a registered wat as it doesn't have the quorum of five fully-ordained monks in residence, among other qualifications lacking. It was an abandoned wat that was turned into a meditation centre by and for westerners. The resident mae chee may very well be in charge of everyday operations there but she is not officially in charge of the centre. I assume that responsibility goes to Steve and Mary Weissman or perhaps a board of trustees.

There are no wats headed by mae chi (10-precept nuns) or bhikkhunis (311-precept nuns) in Thailand.

Personally I hope the old mae chee is allowed to be caretaker of Wat Thai Nalanda, which is in Nalanda, Bihar, rather than Bodh Gaya, as her late master wished. But strictly following Sangha Council rules, it's not normally permitted.

[sabaijai]

That should stir things up a bit.

''Mae chi are barred from managing temples. Only monks, rising to the position of abbot, can manage them,''

Thai Buddhism is obsessed with the letter, ignoring the spirit.

BTW, that doesn't mention where the temple actually is, but it sounds like Bodh Gaya. I visited there some years ago. It's where the Bodhi Tree is, under which Gautama sat and attained enlightment.

What do you mean by telling Thai Buddhism is obsessed wit the letter, ignoring the spirit?

It's a common English phrasing meaning to be strict with rules or laws while ignoring the intent of rules and laws in the first place.

And it's a common trait among all organised religions.

[christiaan]

That should stir things up a bit.

''Mae chi are barred from managing temples. Only monks, rising to the position of abbot, can manage them,''

Thai Buddhism is obsessed with the letter, ignoring the spirit.

BTW, that doesn't mention where the temple actually is, but it sounds like Bodh Gaya. I visited there some years ago. It's where the Bodhi Tree is, under which Gautama sat and attained enlightment.

What do you mean by telling Thai Buddhism is obsessed wit the letter, ignoring the spirit?

It's a common English phrasing meaning to be strict with rules or laws while ignoring the intent of rules and laws in the first place.

And it's a common trait among all organised religions.

What is a common trait among all organised religions? This English phrase or...........?

[Xangsamhua]

A monk who cannot meditate because of a menstruating woman, never can meditate with wisdom,.

He forgets that there are other females in the Wat (cats and dogs).

At Mt Athos, female animals (except cats - to keep the rats down) are not allowed either.

[Brucenkhamen]

Wat Khao Tham is a wat in name only. It is not a registered wat as it doesn't have the quorum of five fully-ordained monks in residence, among other qualifications lacking. It was an abandoned wat that was turned into a meditation centre by and for westerners. The resident mae chee may very well be in charge of everyday operations there but she is not officially in charge of the centre. I assume that responsibility goes to Steve and Mary Weissman or perhaps a board of trustees.

There are no wats headed by mae chi (10-precept nuns) or bhikkhunis (311-precept nuns) in Thailand.

Personally I hope the old mae chee is allowed to be caretaker of Wat Thai Nalanda, which is in Nalanda, Bihar, rather than Bodh Gaya, as he late master wished. But strictly following Sangha Council rules, it's not normally permitted.

This is another example of a Wat that can't be registered as a Wat because it's run by women http://www.thaibhikkhunis.org/eng/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogsection&id=1&Itemid=3 .

To me if it walks a like a duck and talks like a duck then it's a duck, registration or no.

[christiaan]

Just a question: Is strictly following rules an aspect of fundamentalism?

[Brucenkhamen]

Just a question: Is strictly following rules an aspect of fundamentalism?

I would have thought strictly following doctrines or beliefs was an aspect of fundamentalism.

Strictly following rules is an aspect of legalism or traditionalism.

[Xangsamhua]

Just a question: Is strictly following rules an aspect of fundamentalism?

I would have thought strictly following doctrines or beliefs was an aspect of fundamentalism.

Strictly following rules is an aspect of legalism or traditionalism.

Can I add: literal reading of scriptures, especially those regarded as a "closed canon"?

In the Eastern tradition, where one is assigned a teacher, or master ("guru"), is unquestioning faith in the teacher a form of fundamentalism?

I suspect the term is a loose one, e.g. in its use with reference to extremist Islamic movements that have idiosyncratic views rather than fundamental ones.

One would think fundamentalism, if it refers to "strict adherence" to belief or practice, would be out of place in Buddhism. I'm mindful of Jack Kornfield's recollection of Ajahn Chah's response when approached by a group of monks who were upset by the attempted proselytism at the wat by a former nun who had become a born-again Christian. They wanted the abbot to do something about it. Ajahn Chah's response was simply to laugh and say, "Well, maybe she's right." (Kornfield. The Wise Heart: Kindle location 5806-14)

[Brucenkhamen]

In the Eastern tradition, where one is assigned a teacher, or master ("guru"), is unquestioning faith in the teacher a form of fundamentalism?

If what he taught was fundamentalist in approach then yes. Otherwise I think unquestioning faith in a teacher could be anything from a form of devotion at the positive end to stupidity when taken to the extreme.

[lungmi]

In the Eastern tradition, where one is assigned a teacher, or master ("guru"), is unquestioning faith in the teacher a form of fundamentalism?

If what he taught was fundamentalist in approach then yes. Otherwise I think unquestioning faith in a teacher could be anything from a form of devotion at the positive end to stupidity when taken to the extreme.

seconded

[sabaijai]

Just a question: Is strictly following rules an aspect of fundamentalism?

Fundamentalists seek to bypass all clerical hierarchy and connect directly with whatever scripture their religion in based on. In that sense they avoid recognising rules created by religious organisations and clergy. In other words they decide what the rules are based on direct apprehension of the Bible, Koran, Tipitaka, etc.

Of course, in actual practice, there's usually a priest, monk, imam or whomever who is interpreting on behalf of the individual anyway, but claiming to have found the 'true' meaning of the relevant scripture/theology.

Semantically speaking, to be fundamentalist means to go back to the foundation of a religion. The term was coined in relation to a split in Protestantism between Modernists and Fundamentalists.

The Wikipedia entry on fundamentalism labels three movements within Buddhism as fundmentalist: Nichiren, Tibetan Buddhism and New Kamdampa Tradition.

As always, christiaan, your mileage may vary

[sabaijai]

That should stir things up a bit.

''Mae chi are barred from managing temples. Only monks, rising to the position of abbot, can manage them,''

Thai Buddhism is obsessed with the letter, ignoring the spirit.

BTW, that doesn't mention where the temple actually is, but it sounds like Bodh Gaya. I visited there some years ago. It's where the Bodhi Tree is, under which Gautama sat and attained enlightment.

What do you mean by telling Thai Buddhism is obsessed wit the letter, ignoring the spirit?

It's a common English phrasing meaning to be strict with rules or laws while ignoring the intent of rules and laws in the first place.

And it's a common trait among all organised religions.

What is a common trait among all organised religions? This English phrase or...........?

Strictly following rules is a common trait among all world religions, to a lesser or greater degree depending on sect, school and individual.

[sabaijai]

Wat Khao Tham is a wat in name only. It is not a registered wat as it doesn't have the quorum of five fully-ordained monks in residence, among other qualifications lacking. It was an abandoned wat that was turned into a meditation centre by and for westerners. The resident mae chee may very well be in charge of everyday operations there but she is not officially in charge of the centre. I assume that responsibility goes to Steve and Mary Weissman or perhaps a board of trustees.

There are no wats headed by mae chi (10-precept nuns) or bhikkhunis (311-precept nuns) in Thailand.

Personally I hope the old mae chee is allowed to be caretaker of Wat Thai Nalanda, which is in Nalanda, Bihar, rather than Bodh Gaya, as he late master wished. But strictly following Sangha Council rules, it's not normally permitted.

This is another example of a Wat that can't be registered as a Wat because it's run by women http://www.thaibhikkhunis.org/eng/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogsection&id=1&Itemid=3 .

To me if it walks a like a duck and talks like a duck then it's a duck, registration or no.

Just as there is a distinction between, say, a church and a cathedral in Catholicism, according to the criteria set out by the religion, a wat is not a wat without a quorum of five resident monks. Wat Khao Tham is a wat in name only.

It's not because it's run by a woman that Songdhammakalayani Bhikkhuni Arama does not call itself a wat. Again a quorum of five monks is needed.

If the arama fulfilled wat criteria, it's true Ven Dhammananda couldn't serve as abbot, but she claims no such title (jao aawaat) now either. I'm not sure there are any Theravada monasteries anywhere, including in Sri Lanka, where a woman serves as abbot. The Tipitaka mentions bhikkhunis, but not bhikkhuni abbots.

I hope one day Thailand will accept a reborn bhikkhuni tradition and they will be eligible to serve as abbots.