elcent Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 INES Scale (International Nuclear Events Scale) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emster23 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 I am sure we can all rest easier knowing they only designed it for a lower level quake. And just what person decided that a 9.0 quake was not in the realm of possibility? If this is not an convincing argument against building one in LOS, I don't know what is. The combination of corruption leading to cost cutting and shoddy workmanship combined with the lack of "service after the sale" here would make a quake unnecessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Sorry Jdietz... you're wrong in characterizing the radiation release as slightly radioactive and no immediate danger... If you go back and read thru the posts above on this subject, you'll see even TEPCO has acknowledged high levels of radiation in the plant and on the boundary of the plant. And both TEPCO and the Japanese govt. have acknowledged the release of nuclear fision elements into the environment, being cesium and iodine... It's definitely a health problem for anyone around the plant. One general characterization of levels outside the plant was one hour of exposure there was equal to a year's worth of natural radiation exposure... Now, as a separate matter, what what means for the broader environment and someone flying in jets at 30,000 feet, that I don't know..and hasn't been addressed here at all... Nearby the plant, and up in the air at 30,000 feet flying to the U.S., are entirely different discussions. You're wrong Relax. At this time the only thing released is steam, which is slightly radioactive because it has been through the reactor. The amounts measured at the site itself poses no immediate danger, let alone when flying at 10KM (30,000 feet) over it. It would surprise me if it was even measurable at that level. So no 'radiation cloud' or anything at the moment, all the reactor cores seem to be intact still at the moment of this writing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jdietz Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 To put the current radiation level in perspective: The site boundary 500μSv / h were measured 0.5 milliSievert (mSv) per hour exposed at the boundary of the nuclear plant. a normal X-ray exposure is about 6 mSv. A years worth of natural background radiation about 3 mSv. So at the moment, if you stand at the sites' gates for 6 hours you will be exposed to the same radiation as you would get getting an X-Ray taken. No worries yet flying over it, but you definitely don't want to stay in your house in the area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elcent Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 where is the radiation going? Is it blowing towards North America? My question then is, will it be safe to fly? If one looks at the air routes, they seem to fly over Japan and through the radiation cloud. Please, someone tell me I am wrong. WIND CNN just had a professor on who explained that there is no melt dow... reactors are build failure-proof... the radiation from a scan are 100-1,000 times more than standing next to the reactor for an hour... In other words: Carry on, don't worry be happy. Nothing to see here folks, move along. Hi-Tech is limited, human insanity is not. - Who is his paymaster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude007 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Another Japanese nightmare... They always pretended that their nuclear power plants were earthquake-resistant and safe for any tremor that could shake the construction. Now we have another Chernobyl coming up, despite all what they are pretending that there is no immediate threat for the people. Why then evacuate them 20 km away from the plant? Melting is underway and nobody can stop it. It will continue to burn as in Chernobyl, until all nuclear fuel has been burnt and blown in the sky, poisening thousands of sq.km. land and/or ocean. A nuclear powerplant is not like a Toyota car which has been recalled for failing breakes... Will they ever learn??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Thanks Elcent... I knew you'd have it...; So, in regard to the prior post on this, the Japanese govt. is saying the Fukushima situation is accident is a level 4 "without significant off-site risk." Interesting characterization, to say the least. INES Scale (International Nuclear Events Scale) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Ding, actually, the Japanese govt. acknowledged earlier today that a partial meltdown probably had occurred already at Fukushima Daichi reactor 1, and was a danger of that at Fukushima Daichi reactor 3. CNN just had a professor on who explained that there is no melt dow... reactors are build failure-proof... the radiation from a scan are 100-1,000 times more than standing next to the reactor for an hour... In other words: Carry on, don't worry be happy. Nothing to see here folks, move along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dude007 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 where is the radiation going? Is it blowing towards North America? My question then is, will it be safe to fly? If one looks at the air routes, they seem to fly over Japan and through the radiation cloud. Please, someone tell me I am wrong. At the moment is good to remember that just couple of decades ago there has been a lot of nuclear bomb tests in the air. These did occur also inside of USA. The nuclear radiation and fallout from these bombs were likely million or billion times higher than what could be released form the Japan nuclear plant even in the worst case scenario of meltdown. This is an local problem, not global. But still today no one is allowed in this area. This is off limit (just like Chernobyl) for hundreds of thousands of years. Give us some more of these places in the world and traveling will be an art to escape from radiation coming from previous disasters in previous centuries... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 US reactor experts en route to Japan The US Nuclear Regulatory Commission has dispatched 2 specialists to Japan to discuss how to deal with the accidents at 2 quake-damaged nuclear power plants in Fukushima. The 2 experts are scheduled to arrive on Sunday as part of a rescue team from the US Agency for International Development. The Nuclear Regulatory Commission oversees operations and management of nuclear power plants in the United States. Chairman Gregory Jaczko says the organization has some of the world's top nuclear experts and is ready to assist in any way possible. Sunday, March 13, 2011 09:37 +0900 (JST) http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/13_12.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumpling Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Just changed my flight to BKK through Korea rather than Narita. I feel so sad for Japan. What are the signs of the acopalypse? This has been a very strange couple of years! As crazy as that sounds I would be lying if I said the thought never crossed my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elcent Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Thanks Elcent... I knew you'd have it...; So, in regard to the prior post on this, the Japanese govt. is saying the Fukushima situation is accident is a level 4 "without significant off-site risk." Interesting characterization, to say the least. INES Scale (International Nuclear Events Scale) It must be stage six. I think we see apologists at work who are paid to play the accident down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 (edited) Couple of interesting things here... No.1 - The head IAEA guy is a former Japanese diplomat. No. 2 - TEPCO, the plant operator at Fukushima, drew a lot of criticism in a prior quake related nuclear problem for not wanting IAEA to do monitoring... Be interesting to see if IAEA is allowed to get involved at Fukushima.. They made the offer, and now? IAEA chief expresses concern The chief of the International Atomic Energy Agency has expressed concern over the accident at the Fukushima nuclear plant. IAEA Director General Yukiya Amano said on Saturday that he hopes the facility will be secured as soon as possible. He also said he told the Japanese government that his agency is ready to send experts to survey the effects of radioactivity. Sunday, March 13, 2011 09:37 +0900 (JST) http://www3.nhk.or.j...lish/13_11.html Yukiya Amano (天野 之弥, Amano Yukiya?, born 9 May 1947) is the current Director General of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), having been elected to the position in July 2009. Amano previously served as a Japanese diplomat and international civil servant for the United Nations and its subdivisions. Edited March 13, 2011 by jfchandler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 (edited) The first explanation I've seen of what happened with the generators at the Fukushima Daichi plant... from NHK. The Tokyo Electric Power Company, the plants' operator, tried to restore depressurizing equipment using a mobile generator. But the plan failed as the equipment had already been damaged by tsunami waves. And the same account from the Prime Minister in his news conference yesterday: Prime Minister Naoto Kan says he will do his utmost to safeguard the health of residents near the unstable Fukushima No.1 nuclear power plant.At a news conference on Saturday, Kan said unexpectedly powerful tsunami waves interfered with the operation of back-up systems when the plant's operations were halted. Then, I believe NHK is referring to the separate Fukushima Daini plant, about 10 Km away, below: At the Number Two Plant, cooling water temperatures in its 3 reactors remain at 100 degrees Celsius--more than 3-times higher than the normal operating temperature.The utility is considering other options to restore failed cooling systems for these reactors. http://www3.nhk.or.j...lish/13_10.html Edited March 13, 2011 by jfchandler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadianasia Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 The first explanation I've seen of what happened with the generators at the Fukushima Daichi plant... from NHK. The Tokyo Electric Power Company, the plants' operator, tried to restore depressurizing equipment using a mobile generator. But the plan failed as the equipment had already been damaged by tsunami waves. And the same account from the Prime Minister in his news conference yesterday: Prime Minister Naoto Kan says he will do his utmost to safeguard the health of residents near the unstable Fukushima No.1 nuclear power plant.At a news conference on Saturday, Kan said unexpectedly powerful tsunami waves interfered with the operation of back-up systems when the plant's operations were halted. Then, I believe they're referring to the separate Fukushima Daini plant below: At the Number Two Plant, cooling water temperatures in its 3 reactors remain at 100 degrees Celsius--more than 3-times higher than the normal operating temperature.The utility is considering other options to restore failed cooling systems for these reactors. http://www3.nhk.or.j...lish/13_10.html Safety Design verses Costs, Does anyone remember the CAN-DO Reactors built in Canada using Heavy Water, if i remember correct that design stopped working if you lost the heavy water , maybe i am wrong, was just something in my mind from years ago, and the rest of the world went on to do it with out HEAVY Water as a lower cost . maybe they need think design again in earthquake areas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhrobertson Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Japan is a "hi-tech" well organised country, that has spent a lot of time, thought and money on dealing with earthquakes.... Imagine if this happened in another country with nuclear power plants! Warning, the bearded anoraks are out! BBC just interviewed a chap with a beard and an anorak saying that this should mean no more nuclear power plants and the existing ones should be de-commissioned! No doubt we shall get some balance with an interview with a nuclear power advocate? Personally, I suspect that Mitsubishi Heavy's reactors are rather more robust than their Russian counterparts...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elcent Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 just do a google search with tepco complaints. 60 000 results. Series of accidents, falsifying reports, faking documents even deaths have occured. Examples: There have been 199 cases in which data was altered at three nuclear power plants in order pass regular inspections, the Nikkei said. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Group to hit Tepco officials with criminal complaint IWAKI, Fukushima Pref. (Kyodo) A citizens' group said Tuesday that it plans to file a criminal complaint with investigative authorities against senior officials of Tokyo Electric Power Co., accusing the utility firm of various misdemeanors in connection with covering up defects at nuclear power plants. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ and so many more issues in the past ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deeral Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Japan is a "hi-tech" well organised country, that has spent a lot of time, thought and money on dealing with earthquakes.... Imagine if this happened in another country with nuclear power plants! Warning, the bearded anoraks are out! BBC just interviewed a chap with a beard and an anorak saying that this should mean no more nuclear power plants and the existing ones should be de-commissioned! No doubt we shall get some balance with an interview with a nuclear power advocate? Personally, I suspect that Mitsubishi Heavy's reactors are rather more robust than their Russian counterparts...... ...and they've STILL melted down! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elcent Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 some interesting findings here #Fukushima I Nuke Plant: TEPCO Press Release Doesn't Even Admit that there was an explosion that blew off half the building that houses the Reactor No.1. If you read the press release, you would think there was an earthquake at 3:36PM on March 12 and as the result there was some sound and smoke somewhere near the Reactor No.1 (they call it Unit 1). From their 2:00AM March 13, 2011 Press Release in English (their word): Unit 1(Shut down) - Reactor has been shut down. However, the unit is under inspection due to the explosive sound and white smoke that was confirmed after the big quake occurred at 3:36PM. - We have been injecting sea water and boric acid which absorbs neutron into the reactor core. The same Press Release in Japanese is more explicit (my translation into English): Unit 1 (Shut down) - Reactor has been shut down. At 3:36PM yesterday there was a large quake directly under [the Unit 1]. Afterwards, an explosive sound and white smoke were observed near the Unit 1. We are currently investigating the incident. Their 5:30AM Press Release repeats the same verbage. Hmmm. Checking the USGS site, I do find an earthquake at 3:36 PM (6:36AM UTC) on March 12. But it is off the coast of Iwate Prefecture. I think TEPCO is obfuscating by deliberately confusing the order of events - a fine Japanese tradition by the way, you just have to know how to spot it. The correct order of events is: there was an explosion at the Unit 1 -->the earth shook from the explosion --> the explosion was accompanied by a huge sound and white smoke. Source: http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/03/fukushima-i-nuke-plant-tepco-press.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lite Beer Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Water levels restored to plant 3 using the hoses from hire engines. Currently over 2m/RT@gakuranman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elcent Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Water levels restored to plant 3 using the hoses from hire engines. Currently over 2m/RT@gakuranman The fuel rods are 4 meters ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
appropriate Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 This has been mentioned in the other thread (now reserved for general EQ stuff) But it deserves mention here too... the Fukushima plant was built and designed to withstand up to a 7.9 mag quake, not the 8.9 (or whatever number they finally settle on) that actually occurred. Excerpted from the above WSJ link article.. Separately, company documents show that Tokyo Electric tested the Fukushima plant to withstand a maximum seismic jolt lower than Friday's 8.9 earthquake. Tepco's last safety test of nuclear power plant Number 1—one that is currently in danger of meltdown—was done at a seismic magnitude the company considered the highest possible, but in fact turned out to be lower than Friday's quake. The information comes from the company's "Fukushima No. 1 and No. 2 Updated Safety Measures" documents written in Japanese in 2010 and 2009. The documents were reviewed by Dow Jones. The company said in the documents that 7.9 was the highest magnitude for which they tested the safety for their No. 1 and No. 2 nuclear power plants in Fukushima Presumably that is for a 7.9 EQ directly under the plant. This one wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellow1red1 Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Quote: Three reactors at the plant lost their cooling functions in the aftermath of quake and tsunami because of a power outage. Oh the irony; reactors overheating because of power failure. Isn't that what they do; generate electricity? Actually I hope they don't melt down and everybody is safe; they have been through enough this week! that';s what I was wondering also,,, safe > but can't make weapons from it http://www.google.ca/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=0h&oq=&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ACAW_en___CA379&q=thorium+india Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictorOne Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Japan is a "hi-tech" well organised country, that has spent a lot of time, thought and money on dealing with earthquakes.... Imagine if this happened in another country with nuclear power plants! Change "another country" to Thailand and yes you would have a catostrophic disaster. They would probably not report the event "it would be bad for tourism" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 (edited) Updates from Reuters this morning: Officials said 22 people were known to have been exposed to radiation. A total of 190 had been within a 10-km (six-mile) radius of the reactor.Workers in protective clothing were scanning people arriving at evacuation centers for radioactive exposure. "They are working on relieving pressure and pumping in water into the No. 3 reactor," Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano told a news briefing. "This will result in some radiation leakage, although at a level that won't affect peoples' health. It will help stabilize the situation." He also said radiation from the No. 1 reactor was "low enough not to affect people's health." AND GOVERNMENT CRITICISEDThe government, in power less than two years and which had already been struggling to push policy through a deeply divided parliament, came under criticism for its handling of the crisis. "Crisis management is incoherent," blared a headline in the Asahi newspaper, charging that information disclosure and instructions to expand the evacuation area around the troubled plant were too slow. "Every time they repeated 'stay calm' without giving concrete data, anxiety increased," it quoted an unidentified veteran party lawmaker as saying. AND In Europe, environmentalists seized on the accident to press for an end to nuclear power. Up to 60,000 protesters formed a 45-km (27-mile) human chain in Germany to denounce the government's policy of extending the life of nuclear plants.Before news of the problem with reactor No. 3, the [Japan] nuclear safety agency said the plant accident was less serious than both the Three Mile Island accident in 1979 and the 1986 Chernobyl nuclear disaster. An official at the agency said it rated the incident a 4 according to the International Nuclear and Radiological Event Scale (INES). Three Mile Island was rated 5 while Chernobyl was rated 7 on the 1 to 7 scale. http://www.reuters.c...E72A0SS20110313 Edited March 13, 2011 by jfchandler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictorOne Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 This has been mentioned in the other thread (now reserved for general EQ stuff) But it deserves mention here too... the Fukushima plant was built and designed to withstand up to a 7.9 mag quake, not the 8.9 (or whatever number they finally settle on) that actually occurred. Excerpted from the above WSJ link article.. Separately, company documents show that Tokyo Electric tested the Fukushima plant to withstand a maximum seismic jolt lower than Friday's 8.9 earthquake. Tepco's last safety test of nuclear power plant Number 1—one that is currently in danger of meltdown—was done at a seismic magnitude the company considered the highest possible, but in fact turned out to be lower than Friday's quake. The information comes from the company's "Fukushima No. 1 and No. 2 Updated Safety Measures" documents written in Japanese in 2010 and 2009. The documents were reviewed by Dow Jones. The company said in the documents that 7.9 was the highest magnitude for which they tested the safety for their No. 1 and No. 2 nuclear power plants in Fukushima Presumably that is for a 7.9 EQ directly under the plant. This one wasn't. I like your thinking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lite Beer Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 U.S. government deploys two nuclear experts to Japan http://bit.ly/fblXhj/RT@WireUpdate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzMick Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Another Japanese nightmare... They always pretended that their nuclear power plants were earthquake-resistant and safe for any tremor that could shake the construction. Now we have another Chernobyl coming up, despite all what they are pretending that there is no immediate threat for the people. Why then evacuate them 20 km away from the plant? Melting is underway and nobody can stop it. It will continue to burn as in Chernobyl, until all nuclear fuel has been burnt and blown in the sky, poisening thousands of sq.km. land and/or ocean. A nuclear powerplant is not like a Toyota car which has been recalled for failing breakes... Will they ever learn??? "pretended that their nuclear power plants were earthquake-resistant " This plant was tested to an earthquake level of 7.9 which means it was actually designed to withstand a greater shock, and when hit with a quake ~11 times test strength has released a small amount of radiation. I would describe that as earthquake RESISTANT, without any pretence. The only parallel to Chernobyl is that they are both nuclear plants. The Chernobyl reactor was a much older and inferior design, and the system failure was compounded by operators who attributed it to instrument fault until it was too late, and even then were reluctant to report a problem or seek assistance. Even in the middle of the disaster which has struck their country, this is not the case here. Unlike Japan, Chernobyl's reactors were also Plutonium producers, which accounts for much of the long term pollution caused. Prevailing westerly winds will blow most of the pollution over the sea and should cause minimal harm. If some should reach the US west coast, the people there can reflect on Hiroshima, Nagasaki and the various Pacific atolls used for nuclear weapons atmospheric tests. Of course, there is always someone who will put on a chicken suit and run in circles screaming "the sky is falling!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djlest Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 Call it a theory of conspiracy But just for kicks Imagine if the powers that be had developed a way to cause 8.9 earth quakes to detonate from beneath the earths crust, which will in turn create tsunamis that target nuclear power plants... Im sure there are a few already a few theorists running to write a few books on the subject... The sad thing is that between global warming, and the above theory... both seem just as likely as the other... my heartfelt sympathy goes out to those who had to suffer such an event in a time where it seems odd we cant predict things like this, yet speculate so easily on a future which is so much more fragile and volatile than our past... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ding Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 where is the radiation going? Is it blowing towards North America? My question then is, will it be safe to fly? If one looks at the air routes, they seem to fly over Japan and through the radiation cloud. Please, someone tell me I am wrong. WIND CNN just had a professor on who explained that there is no melt dow... reactors are build failure-proof... the radiation from a scan are 100-1,000 times more than standing next to the reactor for an hour... In other words: Carry on, don't worry be happy. Nothing to see here folks, move along. Hi-Tech is limited, human insanity is not. - Who is his paymaster? Good point. Here's the wind link; http://www.stormsurfing.com/cgi/display_alt.cgi?a=npac_250 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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