Meltdown Likely Under Way At Japan Nuclear Reactor

[JulianLS]

Thanks Julian.. I see the same here..

I don't know why the TV system would not read the frame reference...when apparently people can do the same approach in linking to YouTube videos and such... I'm using the frame link item provided by MS SkyDrive...

When you go to the one linked image, can you see the other images in the same folder... or only the one linked image alone?

After following the link, I can access 6 images in that folder.

[jfchandler]

Here's a fuzzy NHK image of the water spraying on Reactor No. 3, taken from their helicopter flying at a distance of 30+ Km away.

http://cid-0304a2786...on%20No%203.jpg

Also, regarding the question of confusing and conflicting radiation reports, NHK just clarified that the microsievert numbers they've reported for last night and this morning were measured at the plant's west gate... not directly at the reactors themselves.

http://cid-0304a2786...te-Thur-Fri.jpg

Edited March 18, 2011 by jfchandler

[jfchandler]

After following the link, I can access 6 images in that folder.

OK...so a web link to any one of the images in the folder gives everyone access to all of the images in the same folder...

[powderpuff]

Your link works fine John. I can see & enlarge any of 6 images.

[SurfRider]

.

Tokyo flight triggers O'Hare radiation detectors

Federal officials found traces of radiation on United and American airlines jets that arrived at Chicago's O'Hare International Airport from Tokyo Wednesday, but later determined that the planes' cargo and passengers were not at risk.

As concerns mount about the radiation spewing into the atmosphere from Japan's crippled nuclear reactors, U.S. Customs and Border Protection said it had begun monitoring airline and maritime traffic for radiation contamination "out of an abundance of caution."

Customs officials detected trace elements of radiation on cargo containers on two flights that landed at O'Hare from Tokyo's Narita International Airport, Wednesday, and an additional flight operated by American Airlines into Dallas-Ft. Worth International Airport.

Officials quickly determined that the packages were safe, sources said. On the two American flights, the isotope discovered was consistent with that emitted by medical devices, and the jets were quickly returned to service, said Tim Smith, spokesman for the Dallas-based carrier.

http://chicagobreaki...on-dectors.html

http://www.chicagobr...0,4216493.story

.

[powderpuff]

Lapan also detailed Defense Department assistance to Japan from the U.S. Northern Command, based at Peterson Air Force Base in Colorado Springs, Colo., and ongoing assistance from U.S. Navy ships in the region.

A nine-member expert planning team from Northcom was scheduled to arrive in Japan today, Lapan said.

"The team will provide technical advice on chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear and hazardous material, as well as medical and logistical [support]," he said. "They will report to the commander of U.S. Forces Japan and work closely with the Japanese military to evaluate and assess whether more U.S. help is needed."

As a precautionary step for U.S. service members, Lapan said, the Defense Department is moving supplies of potassium iodide and possibly other compounds from the continental United States in case they are needed. Potassium iodide is used in radiation emergencies to help in protecting the thyroid gland from poisoning with radioactive iodine, one of the products released during a nuclear accident.

U.S. ships in the region continue to provide assistance in the area, Lapan said.

Full article from the US DOD here.. http://www.defense.g...e.aspx?ID=63199

They might get sent back for not having work permits.

[jfchandler]

Thanks PP...

Your link works fine John. I can see & enlarge any of 6 images.

[Tywais]

I don't know why the TV system would not read the frame reference...when apparently people can do the same approach in linking to YouTube videos and such... I'm using the frame link item provided by MS SkyDrive...

The frame link image will not work as the forum software does not allow embedded HTML. The below is the code by right clicking on the image and Copy Image Location. The 2nd is the code pasted into the Insert Image control box.

Youtube is supported directly by the forum software.

http://public.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pQ21OHW1g9PrxpiaYsnb4U9e2Rzt4_EC8kwNk0sw_e-5WBrbW1TyIOr8Gi6DL7BKScJPFnfgsKBYDawVeuHA7Hg/NISA%20Common%20Radiation%20Chart.jpg?psid=1

[jfchandler]

BTW, for anyone who has a hankering for Japanese TV, NHK World can be watched online at several different web links... One of them is:

http://live.nicovide...atch/lv43583382

Another is via CNN:

http://edition.cnn.c...e.html?stream=1

PS - The NHK translator is talking about the fire trucks "doushing" the reactor... I think she means "dousing." But it ends up sounding like something entirely different..

Edited March 18, 2011 by jfchandler

[jfchandler]

Sounds like the Friday power restoration plans have now become Saturday restoration plans...

NHK:

Reactors may restore cooling systems by Sat.

Tokyo Electric Power Company says it hopes to restore power to two of its troubled reactors by Saturday to activate the cooling systems in a bid to prevent the nuclear crisis from worsening.

The utility company announced this at a news conference on Friday morning.

At the Fukushima Daiichi Power Plant, three reactors lost their cooling capabilities due to a power outage and the failure of emergency power generators after last week's earthquake and tsunami.

The company says it has been working to lay a new power line to the plant since yesterday.

It is aiming at restoring the cooling systems at the No. 1 and No.2 reactors. It has so far installed a distributor panel at an office next to the No. 1 reactor. It is now trying to connect the power line to a transformer at the No. 2 reactor via the No. 1 reactor.

The workers are carefully watching radiation levels, which remain high -- up to 20 millisieverts per hour at some points.

Tokyo Electric says it hopes to complete laying the cable on Friday afternoon and to connect power lines to the two reactors by Saturday.

Friday, March 18, 2011 13:13 +0900 (JST)

Edited March 18, 2011 by jfchandler

[Lopburi99]

<snip>

PS - The NHK translator is talking about the fire trucks "doushing" the reactor... I think she means "dousing." But it ends up sounding like something entirely different..

On that note, it's time to call it a night John - G'nite from Michigan.

Edited March 18, 2011 by Lopburi99

[jfchandler]

deleted

Edited March 18, 2011 by jfchandler

[JulianLS]

Previously in the week, the concern about unit #3 was very much about the reactor itself, and whether the reactor vessel might have been breached. But now it seems that the concern for unit #3 has switched to the storage pools (at least, judging by the reports on NHK regarding the reason for spraying water).

Was the explosion at unit #3 definitely caused by the venting operation carried out shortly before? The fact that venting in #2 was also followed by an explosion my suggest it was. But the explosion at #4 surely must have resulted from the storage pool itself, given that reactor #4 was in cold shutdown and had no fuel rods at the time. Suggesting that #3's explosion just might have involved, or even be caused by, it's storage pool.

That said, even if the explosion at #3 was triggered by the venting, the magnitude of the explosion earlier in the week could well have compromised the integrity of the storage pool.

Why has the concern about #3 reactor abated, and the concern about #3 storage pool increased? Any theories?

[jfchandler]

Julian, you got me... It's another example of some things here being hard to follow..

No. 3 does have the mixed plutonium fuel component, unlike the other reactors.. Which probably makes it more of a potential hazard.

But beyond that, at least for me, it gets muddy...

Perhaps they're worried about part plutonium fuel rods in No. 3's cooling pools causing emissions or other problems...in the absence of adequate cooling...

Perhaps the No. 4 cooling pool rods, despite supposedly being a larger quantity, are deemed as less of a risk because (maybe) there isn't plutonium there and/or because the rods there are older and less active, having been out of the No. 4 reactor since November.

Perhaps they flipped a coin...

I guess the other thing to note about the fire truck water spraying is... I can understand that they might have some effect on cooling and damping down the cooling pool activities...

But I haven't heard or seen anyone saying that kind of spraying will do anything to cool down the actual reactors in Units 1 - 3, because presumably, those are already contained within the reactor containment vessels and not readily accessible via water sprayed from outside???

[jfchandler]

Edited March 18, 2011 by jfchandler

[lopburi3]

The above post is text only - no 'posted image'.

Edit: Or did you mean you have posted an image to the previous offsite file?

[brahmburgers]

The (Air Force) personnel were scrubbed down with soap and water, then declared contamination-free.

Sounds like a job some Thai professional women would be good at. I bet the aviators wouldn't mind.

Just wondering: The core reactor containment vessels are metal, are they not? If you dump cold water on super hot metal of a car motor, you crack the block. I assume the experts on the scene have their bases covered, ...though they appear to have done some bloopers thus far.

[bkkjames]

The (Air Force) personnel were scrubbed down with soap and water, then declared contamination-free.

Sounds like a job some Thai professional women would be good at. I bet the aviators wouldn't mind.

Just wondering: The core reactor containment vessels are metal, are they not? If you dump cold water on super hot metal of a car motor, you crack the block. I assume the experts on the scene have their bases covered, ...though they appear to have done some bloopers thus far.

probably pumping boiling water onto it in the hopes of reducing the temps and avoiding your scenario above ?

[JulianLS]

Julian, you got me... It's another example of some things here being hard to follow..

No. 3 does have the mixed plutonium fuel component, unlike the other reactors.. Which probably makes it more of a potential hazard.

But beyond that, at least for me, it gets muddy...

Perhaps they're worried about part plutonium fuel rods in No. 3's cooling pools causing emissions or other problems...in the absence of adequate cooling...

Perhaps the No. 4 cooling pool rods, despite supposedly being a larger quantity, are deemed as less of a risk because (maybe) there isn't plutonium there and/or because the rods there are older and less active, having been out of the No. 4 reactor since November.

Perhaps they flipped a coin...

I guess the other thing to note about the fire truck water spraying is... I can understand that they might have some effect on cooling and damping down the cooling pool activities...

But I haven't heard or seen anyone saying that kind of spraying will do anything to cool down the actual reactors in Units 1 - 3, because presumably, those are already contained within the reactor containment vessels and not readily accessible via water sprayed from outside???

If the primary reactor containment vessel is intact, then it would probably help little. But if the vessel is breached, then it could in theory help to increase the water level within the vessel. But based on the information from Japan, I suspect they really don't know the status of the reactor containment vessels. If the pressure in the vessel is above atmospheric, then it might imply the vessel is still intact. But I don't know how many of the information systems are still working at this point in time. Certainly initial reports suggested they were getting pressure readings from the reactor vessels (which lead to the venting operations).

[JulianLS]

The (Air Force) personnel were scrubbed down with soap and water, then declared contamination-free.

Sounds like a job some Thai professional women would be good at. I bet the aviators wouldn't mind.

Just wondering: The core reactor containment vessels are metal, are they not? If you dump cold water on super hot metal of a car motor, you crack the block. I assume the experts on the scene have their bases covered, ...though they appear to have done some bloopers thus far.

The reactor containment metals are indeed metal, steel I believe.

But I wouldn't expect the reactor vessels to be that hot. Bear in mind that they contain a large volume of water (albeit perhaps not enough water). As the vessel is pressurised, it could be above 100 degrees. But very high temperatures would have caused the vessel to go boom due to steam pressure alone. After previous venting, pressures in the vessels returned to normal, implying that the vessels are nowhere near white hot. It is also worth noting that hydrogen production within the vessel, due to exposure of the fuel rods, was at least partially responsible for the pressure spikes, rather than steam pressure alone.

[Tywais]

As the vessel is pressurised, it could be above 100 degrees.

The BWR uses demineralized water as a coolant and neutron moderator. Heat is produced by nuclear fission in the reactor core, and this causes the cooling water to boil, producing steam. The steam is directly used to drive a turbine, after which it is cooled in a condenser and converted back to liquid water. This water is then returned to the reactor core, completing the loop. The cooling water is maintained at about 75 atm (7.6 MPa, 1000–1100 psi) so that it boils in the core at about 285 °C (550 °F). In comparison, there is no significant boiling allowed in a PWR (Pressurized Water Reactor) because of the high pressure maintained in its primary loop—approximately 158 atm (16 MPa, 2300 psi).

Boiling Water Reactor

[jfchandler]

NHK adding that the value of the unpaid salary obligations for their customers is about $1.5 BILLION. And the total unprocessed transactions valued at something like $8 BILLION...

The bank president is apologizing...

Mizuho Bank to Suspend ATMs on 3-Day Weekend

The trouble affects 620,000 salary remittances scheduled for Friday. Corporate clients cannot make remittances for settlements even at its outlets or over the Internet.

http://jen.jiji.com/jc/eng?g=eco

[jfchandler]

Lopburi...when I look at my post 1523 just above yours, I see the actual graphic of the evacuation map...

It didnt' work the first time... so I went back in, edited the post, and tried the image link another way.

Can you see the image now...or still not? Thanks.

The above post is text only - no 'posted image'.

Edit: Or did you mean you have posted an image to the previous offsite file?

[James3212]

chandler: I can see the pic, so it probably should be visible to most people now, thanks

[Chopperboy]

As a nine-member team from the Pentagon headed to Japan to help, Mr Jaczko said: "It would be very difficult for emergency workers to get near the reactors.

Jaczko said anyone who gets close to the plant could face potentially lethal doses of radiation.

"We believe radiation levels are extremely high," he said.

[jfchandler]

Thanks James, we've been trying to do a workaround, since the normal method of attaching image files in TVisa isn't working at present. It's meaning having to post the photos to some third party website somewhere, and then link to that site in the Thai Visa post.

chandler: I can see the pic, so it probably should be visible to most people now, thanks

[StreetCowboy]

As the vessel is pressurised, it could be above 100 degrees.

The BWR uses demineralized water as a coolant and neutron moderator. Heat is produced by nuclear fission in the reactor core, and this causes the cooling water to boil, producing steam. The steam is directly used to drive a turbine, after which it is cooled in a condenser and converted back to liquid water. This water is then returned to the reactor core, completing the loop. The cooling water is maintained at about 75 atm (7.6 MPa, 1000–1100 psi) so that it boils in the core at about 285 °C (550 °F). In comparison, there is no significant boiling allowed in a PWR (Pressurized Water Reactor) because of the high pressure maintained in its primary loop—approximately 158 atm (16 MPa, 2300 psi).

Boiling Water Reactor

The steels used in reactor pressure vessels are ductile, rather than brittle, and can probably take a lot of thermal stressing; though I suppose you would not want to find out exactly how much the hard way...

I suppose the big issue is keeping the various ponds and vessels topped up with water, and if a pond has a leak, that is not so straigthforward; whereas the pressure vessels, which are still largely intact, only need to worry about water that is boiled off to atmosphere; of course, there is also the worry that the steam will be contaminated - less so, if the fuel is covered by water, so that the steam comes from the surface of the water, and not the surface of the fuel...

SC

[Chopperboy]

The emergency workers focused their efforts on the storage pool at reactor 3, the only unit at the site that runs on mixed oxide fuel, which contains reclaimed plutonium.

Beddington said, that storage pools at reactors 5 and 6 were leaking. "We are extremely worried about that. The reason we are worried is that there is a substantial volume of material there and this, once it's open to the air and starting to heat up, can start to emit significant amounts of radiation."

[jfchandler]

It depends on when the NRC guy was being quoted and what the readings were at that time...

AFAIK, the highest publicly disclosed reading at the reactors themselves has been about 400 milli-sievert per hour...two or so days ago...after one of the explosions.

As of today, the Japanese are saying the at-reactor radiation levels are about 20 milli-sievert per hour.. Not good, but a whole lot better than 400mSv per hour, which would head into lethal territory if one had a sustained exposure at that level for 10 hours or more.

As a nine-member team from the Pentagon headed to Japan to help, Mr Jaczko said: "It would be very difficult for emergency workers to get near the reactors.

Jaczko said anyone who gets close to the plant could face potentially lethal doses of radiation.

"We believe radiation levels are extremely high," he said.

[jfchandler]

I haven't heard or seen any authoritative report indicating the fuel rod storage ponds in reactors 5 and 6 are leaking... What/where is the source of that info?

The emergency workers focused their efforts on the storage pool at reactor 3, the only unit at the site that runs on mixed oxide fuel, which contains reclaimed plutonium.

Beddington said, that storage pools at reactors 5 and 6 were leaking. "We are extremely worried about that. The reason we are worried is that there is a substantial volume of material there and this, once it's open to the air and starting to heat up, can start to emit significant amounts of radiation."