Do Thais Truly Accept Gays?

[noctiluca]

I hope it is ok for me to join discussions on this board. I noticed someone mentioned Thais are very accepting of gays. I am a Thai, but I don't think I would claim I am the typical representation or have authority on Thai gay men. I agree that Thais in general are very tolerant of someone else's lifestyle, religion, belief, race, etc, if you compare to others in the world. But is it the truth or just the perception that Thais do open hearts and arms to embrace gay people? I mean including lesbians, transvestites, transsexuals, bisexuals. Or is it reserved for only gay farangs? For me personally, I do not think "accept" is the right word. I think, generally, Thais seem or at least try to take the "middle path", according to Buddhist teaching. I think that's why Thais tend not to have "extreme" ideas like considering something to be liberal or conservative, left or right, black or white. If you ask a Thai if they are liberal or conservative, they would probably make a blank stare at you. To me, Thais seem to take the grey area better than, perhaps, westerners? Also, since we believe in karma and reincarnation, that helps explain how gays, or whatever word you want to use, come to be. I'm not a strict or devout Buddhist so I may not understand or explain this correctly, but I'm sure you can find out from library, bookstore, or even Internet what Thais believe about gays, traditionally. I admit gays always exist in Thai history, like any culture, but it's not always gay friendly, though. I know a lot of my "gay" friends feel the pressure to conform to Thai tradition of how men and women should behave or act. The pressure and restriction are real, however varying from one background to another. I'm not sure if this is because we were influenced by western "modernization" or not. I see that nowadays it seems to be much easier for young gays to come out or act out than when I was growing up. I heard that gays or katoeys now are considered popular in schools even, but I'm not sure if that's because of the western influence either, or if it's just a fad. I know a lot of people, though are more familiar and tolerant of gays, still do not wish their children to grow up gay, and will do anything to prevent it. I have a friend, who in his youth, slept with so many men he lost count, but now married a girl, so he could have a "family" he always wanted. If the society truly "accept" gays and treat them equally, would he be married to a girl in order to have a "family"? I am in no position to judge him, and I know he has his own reason, perhaps of which I do not understand. I'm just wondering if "acceptance" is exactly we Thais embrace gays with. And I mean all spectrums of gays, not just katoeys.

What do you think? I would particularly like to read westerners/foreigners/farangs' ideas. For me, it's always fascinating to hear from outsiders, I don't mean as exclusive, but someone from another culture, perhaps. What is your opinion on us Thais? I welcome both agreement and disagreement from Thai or non-Thai. How about your experience?

(Sorry if I may be a bit too serious on this topic, and pardon me for my babbling.)

[ProThaiExpat]

Welcome, Noctiluca. May I compliment you on your command of the written English language. The best I have seen in this forum from a Thai, or one who acknowledges it, at least.

Your balance in handling a very complex societal issue is laudable. Once you get past the "people are people are people" premise, one is left with seeking out "causitive factors" to explain, perhaps, what might be a cultural bias, as you did referring to Thai Buddhist heritage affectiing attitudes towards gays.

The Christian-Judean heritage of many western countries, particularly when you add the Puritan influence in the U.S., is certainly a major factor in prejudice towards gays there.

Sweeping generalities are not very accurate or desireable when describing social issues, in my view, as there are so many "exceptions".

I would like to pose a simple example and elicit your Thai response.

The sharpest contrast in "attitude" backed up by "action" I noticed when first coming to Thailand was the number of "straight men" working in the gay sex trade.

This seems to me, a much less condemming attitude to gay sex by most Thai men. In the U.S., most straight men have a very deep seated fear or discomfort level with gay sex and often react violently when faced with it on a personal level. Granted, the level of education of the individual is a major factor.

In Thailand, it seems men can have a casual gay sex experience and think nothing of it. Gay sex workers have wives and children and often return to home, hearth and wife after "working" a gay sex shift.

My Thai, who is a skillful conversationalist, can through innuendo and allusion on a high level, seduce most straight Thai men and does so for his gay friends as a favor, as he is monogamous with me.

My guess is that, Thai straight men, like to see from a very slight to a more pronounced female element in behaviour in a Thai man inorder to provide a clue or sign that the other male is ready to assume the female role in a casual sexual encounter.

To be more precise, I think gay sex workers who are straight, have learned to perform the passive role in gay sex for money, while straight Thai men, having casual gay sex with other men, look for katoy or effeminate characteristics in other Thai men inorder to define the roles and make the event possible.

My view is that Thai men think of a casual sexual encounter with another receptive "female role playing" Thai man as "no big deal", just a quickie when a woman is not at hand or a friendly gesture. While in the West, such behaviour is condemend and the participants in such behaviour looked down upon. Perhaps Thai wormen just shrug off such behaviour as just something "men do" as long as it doesn't affect them. After all, the "second wife" acceptance in Thailand is likewise a more "liberal view' toward infidelitiy than in many western cultures.

Am I wrong in assuming this "casual" attitude among straight Thai men toward have a casual gay experience with another Thai man who is gay, only extends to his assuming the "active" role in the sex act and that a Thai straight man would have great difficulty playing the "female role" in such an encounter unless substantial incentive was present?

I am struck by the legalization of gay marriage in Spain recently. A Catholic country whose religion strongly condems gays. Perhaps this is more of a commentary of the influence of Chatholic dogma on Catholics, than on gay rights?

Anyway, your commentary was excellent on this subject and your a most wecome addition to this forum.

Edited September 17, 2005 by ProThaiExpat

[Bull]

I am struck by the legalization of gay marriage in Spain recently. A Catholic country whose religion strongly condems gays. Perhaps this is more of a commentary of the influence of Chatholic dogma on Catholics, than on gay rights?

Being Spanish...I might be able to throw some light into this...

Spain is not a "Catholic country", but rather a country of "Catholic Tradition". No religion enjoys the status of "state religion" such as Budhism in Thailand. Even the subject of "Catholic Religion" at school is an optional for students...and you can be sure you will never hear the president asking you to join his payers in any occasion, such as you can see in the US...Hence there is not such a thing as "our" religion.

Regarding the practising of religion, this is very low in the segment of population below 40, and the power and influence of the Catholic hierarchy in the country is insignificant nowadays.

Actually more and more people feel disturbed when Catholic authorities voice their opinions on issues such us gay marriage, divorce, abortion....and so on beyond their own circles, which have put them in a difficult situation in numerous occasions lately.

Apart from this, and undoubtedly due to the fact that we have a very young democracy and constitution (1978), Spanish law is very liberal when compared to many other countries in the world regarding this and many other aspects of life...

I just can say that I am glad that in this spirit the current Spanish government decided to legalize homosexual marriage in Spain last June...

Bull

Edited September 17, 2005 by Bull

[ProThaiExpat]

Congratulations, Bull, your country has drawn my admiriation,

especially after the last Pope "summoned" your Prime Minister to the Vatican for a lecture on gay marriage and then turned right around and enacted the legislation he advocated, despite the Pope's actions.

There have been much talk in the press of the decline in attendance in Europe in the Catholic church. The recent "summer" rally for Catholic Youth, mislabled as some form of generic event, seemed to me at the time as a party rather than a serious retreat by young Catholics.

Notwithstanding the foregoing, it is still appalling to see the readiness of young people to admire the current Pope, who has done nothing in his life but preach intollerance, bigotry and ancient fable dogma.

[astral]

I always remember seeing a group of mid teenagers, boys and girls

walking around a Mall in Korat together. One boy was obviously very

effeminate, but he was part of the group in way that could not happen in

any western country that I know.

On a more general level I suspect that Thai's, particularly parents, prefer

no to "see" what is going on. I know two girls who live together as a couple.

The parents of one girl are still trying to find her a husband, but she is not interested.

I think it is a mistake, in any culture, to rub you sexuality in other people's faces.

No snide comments, you know what I mean.

Normal signs of affection are OK, but anything more should be a private

matter. The macho attitude of telling everyone what you did on bed last

night is not acceptable, in my book, for anyone.

[ProThaiExpat]

Astral: I couldn't agree with you more on societies right to impose public behaviour rules upon its members as long as those rules are non-discriminatory. Does your "normal signs of affection" include same sex hand holding and kissing among men? In a society that permits that amoung straights, of course.

[The_Moog]

If a Thai person acquires the HIV virus and his relations finds out, there can be problems in Thai families.

I have experienced that reaction in two separate Thai families.

[Ijustwannateach]

Maybe you need to start using condoms!

Yes, that was in poor taste, and apologies. But so was your implication that "gay" automatically has associations with HIV that straight does not.

"Steven"

[Scott]

Thais are more tolerant of gays than many groups, but they are (or appear to be) less tolerant than 20 years ago. I think this is because of the rising middle-class, which historically is less tolerant of others.

In Thailand, however, people really would rather stay away from confrontation and expressing an opinion is likely to bring about a confrontation, so people tend to not say negative things about others unless they are reasonably sure no one will take offense.

Much of Asia, including the middle east have a different way than Western cultures of dealing with issues regarding sexual behavior. There is a tendency to segregate the sexes as a way of preventing sexual relations between male and female. This is most extreme in the middle eastern Muslim countries, but is also prevalent in Thailand. Good girls just are not seen with a boy (alone). Groups are somewhat tolerted, but boys will tend to stay with boys and girls with other girls.

In the past 10 years or so, you see more male-female hand holding in public and walking alone etc. Something you almost never saw before and if you did the assumption was that the girl was a prostitute.

Social segregation of the sexes tends to result in opportunistic sexual relations of the same-sex variety, thus Thailand has a history of male-male and female-female sex. This isn't necessarily seen as gay/lesbian, but as "normal" for young people. Without the gay identity, most families believe their sons/daughters will just "grow out of it."

[The_Moog]

Maybe you need to start using condoms!

angry.gif

Yes, that was in poor taste, and apologies. But so was your implication that "gay" automatically has associations with HIV that straight does not.

One was a straight girl (my ex-Girlfriend, infected by a heterosexual Thai man from Nakhom Pathom, who knew he was HIV+ and didn't bother to tell her), one was a gay guy....my Thai uncle (now deceased). Not that its any of your business.

...and you sir, are a jackass.

Edited September 19, 2005 by The_Moog

[Ijustwannateach]

Well, then, what DID that have to do with a gay thread?

I may well be a jackass, but you are at least as much one.

[The_Moog]

Ok to spell it out for IJWT.

....Its relevant because Thais in general totally accept gays, but if they get sick with HIV, the scenario may change, <and in fairness same applies to non-gays who get sick>. Oherwise gays fit in fine here. None are objectionable - with the possible exception of your goodself.

You sit there nitpicking and calling people names. Squealing 'homophobe' relentlessly.

You don't know what you're gassing on about. Ask Chris if he thinks the man behind the Moog is a homophobe. We had a fine time eating snacks and drinking beer on my balcony.

You could have joined us. Had you not been sociopathically nit-picking away on your computer. Obsessively refreshing and re-refreshing the 'view new topics' instead of meeting other folk.

[Ijustwannateach]

Moog,

HIV has nothing to do with being gay. It has everything to do with unsafe sexual practices. The thing I was objecting to was the implication that Thai's opinion of gays should have anything to do with HIV. As you noted in your own experience, half of those you personally knew who were infected were presumably straight. Thus it begs the question: WHY DOES THIS PERTAIN TO A THREAD ABOUT HOW THAIS VIEW GAYS?

You may (for all I know) be a perfectly personable chap. I confess that I've been quite impressed with many of your posts and you're obviously highly intelligent. But in the Gay Forum (or heck, anywhere) we shouldn't have to accept the normal, stereotypical crap that straights give us day in and day out through prejudice, misinformation, or ignorance. Viewing HIV as a "gay disease" is part of that crap, and I'm calling you on it.

Imagine if everytime someone mentioned their wife, girlfriend, or "straight issues" people brought up herpes. "Oh, we don't mind straight people- I just hope they don't go spreading their *HERPES* around." It doesn't exactly have the same cachet, but may help you get the idea.

If this seems nitpicky or too arcane for you to understand, you're free to ignore me or not read the gay forum. But these things ARE important to me, and I believe also to other gays. If you want to post alongside us, you're going to learn about them- better late than never.

As far as the crack about my social life- I have plenty of friends, thanks- perhaps too many of them at times to do them proper justice- and my life does not revolve around posting on this forum any more than yours does. I hope to share a drink with Chris before too long one-on-one. I dislike "outing" myself to too many forum people at once- the Bangkok scene is too much a small world- but perhaps even we will get together one of these days.

"Steven"

[PeaceBlondie]

Are some posters here saying that Thai culture is LESS accepting-tolerant of gay men than it was 20 years ago? My Thai ex-boyfriend says just the opposite is true.

Among my 12 and 13 year old male English students in Thailand, roughly 20% were already out of the closet as gays. Was that the case 20 years ago? No.

[noctiluca]

Thanks for everybody who replied, no matter whether it is relevant or not. I've been busy for a few days, and am glad to see some replies here to stimulate my brains. Thank you for your kind words, ProThaiExpat. Your post is very thoughtful. Well, I think my writing is working better than my speaking (because I can reread and go back to correct mistakes, at least I tried.)

I am kind of tired so my brain may not be working as it should. I agree most straight Thai men seem to be very lenient when it comes to having gay sex, as long as the other partners are more "feminine" and take "passive" sexual role. Of course, you would not normally find them bragging about it, unless they want to show they are more "macho" than the other guys, often in drinking circle. I wonder if that is because when it comes to sex, Thais tend to categorize sexual roles into strictly masculine and feminine. It's hard for them, perhaps, to acknowledge or imagine there is another role in between, or that anyone want to do role reversal. (It's kind of funny when you think that we take the grey area better in many other aspects.) I say this as an outward behavior, not touching upon the role "in bed" just yet. That is probably why we see prevalence of katoey in Thai gay society, unlike the western counterparts, or at least that's how it seems to be. Could the reason behind this be that there are far and few in between openly "gay role models" in Thailand? I do not intend to suggest negativity about katoey. I mean would it be possible this is because Thai gays only get to see the only outlet for them to express themselves is being katoey? I wonder if some of them truly believe that, in order for them to fit into what society deems as close to acceptable, the only way they can is to adopt the feminine role, to become katoey. Even among Thai gay men, it is almost an expectation that to be gay you would have to show katoey's traits, for a lack of the better word, no matter small or insignificant they are, if there is actually one; otherwise, you are accused of hiding your true self. Thai society seems ready to give the benefit of doubt to katoey. Many times you may hear straight people advise you, rightly or wrongly, not to hate but to take a pity on them instead. But when it comes to non-katoey gays, many Thais find it puzzling, if not repulsive, why a "regular acting" male would want to have a sexual relationship with another male of the same kind, or what we call "from the same forest." You may not see them saying it right in front of you, but they surely gossip about it behind your back. Would having a visible gay role model help take pressure of the attempt to fit into sexual categories I mentioned above?

I do realize there is always an exception. As I mentioned before in the topic above, it is easier now for Thai gays to come out and act out as much as they want to. So what I say here will likely not apply to everyone in every situation, especially for modern gay youth.

I am so sleepy now, so I figure I will get back to add more thoughts on this later.

Ciao!

[The_Moog]

Among my 12 and 13 year old male English students in Thailand, roughly 20% were already out of the closet as gays.

(Rather a stunning statistic- but if you've witnessed it, then fine)

Well that just goes to prove this is a tolerant society.

If 12 year old UK schoolboys were so disposed likewise, (apart from in Public School, ...Eton, Harrow etc), they'd probably be pummelled by Bullies.

I'm sure the Thais must be intolerant of some other things. Cambodians and Burmese people perhaps.

[bkkmadness]

Are some posters here saying that Thai culture is LESS accepting-tolerant of gay men than it was 20 years ago?  My Thai ex-boyfriend says just the opposite is true.

Among my 12 and 13 year old male English students in Thailand, roughly 20% were already out of the closet as gays.  Was that the case 20 years ago?  No.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1 in 5 of your male Thai students were gay?

That seems like a lot, and assuming that some weren't out of the closet yet then that percentage is even higher right?

Thats a high ratio for gay people isn't it, 1 in 5, probably more?

[Ijustwannateach]

^20% is high according to typical surveys in the West (which more typically report 10%), but the surveys in the West must be taken in the context of self-identifying as gay being highly threatening in a hostile and homophobic society.

Adolescents in particular experience a fluid sexuality; it's probably perfectly normal with the hormone levels that high to be open to screwing anything on two legs.

It's hard to know (being impossible to experiment) how many people would self-identify as gay in a completely tolerant society.

As far back as the 60s, Kinsey's surveys showed that MOST adult men had indulged in some kind of homoerotic behavior at one point or another in life, just as most adult men had ALSO indulged in some kind of heterosexual behavior at one point or another (as most of the gay posters on this forum probably have). It was being ABSOLUTELY heterosexual or homosexual that was the most unusual case, in fact.

Edited September 20, 2005 by Ijustwannateach

[Scott]

Peaceblonde, I am the one who said I think it's less tolerant than it was 20 years ago. I stress that I THINK it is less tolerant. This is based on my experience over the years here.

I am sure attitudes have changed, but I am interested in knowing what others think. Maybe people are more vocal than they were. Maybe they choose not to see things more then. I am not absolutely sure. I do know I hear more negative comments about gays now than before, although, I must admit that these are very mild in comparison to any Western country.

Also, I haven't seen any overt (or not much overt) negative behavior toward gays then or now.

[Tyree D.]

1 in 5 of your male Thai students were gay

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

only that much? Today my school just had a day where the mayor (?) and some inspectors showed up to see the improvements of the campus. There was a western theme and the flaming M3 student who wears a bra dressed up as a gay elf and greeted the people. If that's not acceptance, I don't know what is. And the students English skills have improved and since I am the only foreign teacher, I take all the credit!

I always see the boys holding hands and the lesbians with hikeys and I'm sure they got it from other girls. If this is accepted openly at a Mathayom school, the answer to the OPs topic is yes.

[PeaceBlondie]

Okay, let me think. First school, the M1 class had 25 students, maybe 11 boys. No**, **am, P*m - three out of those 11 were out of the closet; everybody knew. My M4 class started with 2 obvious and one or two less obvious, out of about 10 boys. Second school, just one M1 class with 31 students, about 14 of them boys: two most obvious (used the girls´toilet) and three more that I´d be willing to bet were already out of the closet. That´s probably 8 out of 25 M1 boys - 32%, but maybe as low as 23%.

Both these schools were offering native English special programs in a northern province famous for its katoeys, and katoeys seem to want to learn English more than the boy-boys. So it isn´t a typical sample.

[The_Moog]

two most obvious (used the girls´toilet)

They weren't gay, just shrewd. <A schoolboy trick of getting access into the girls lavvies and seeing girls in their voluminous navy blue knickers>

Edited September 20, 2005 by The_Moog

[Guest endure]

I always see the boys holding hands and the lesbians with hikeys and I'm sure they got it from other girls.  If this is accepted openly at a Mathayom school, the answer to the OPs topic is yes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thai boys (and adult males) hold hands because they're friends. It's got nothing to do with being gay.

Edited September 20, 2005 by endure

[Guest endure]

If this seems nitpicky or too arcane for you to understand, you're free to ignore me or not read the gay forum.  But these things ARE important to me, and I believe also to other gays.  If you want to post alongside us, you're going to learn about them- better late than never.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If the Moog wants to post alongside 'us' he's perfectly entitled to post what he wants. You speak for yourself - not for 'other gays' - certainly not for me.

[Considered Opinion]

If a Thai person acquires the HIV virus and his relations finds out, there can be problems in Thai families.

I have experienced that reaction in two separate Thai families.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Truth be told, far less problems than those associated with fulung, both family and "friends".

At the end of the day most fulung are in LOS for reasons other than health, and usually revolve around beer, mates and bar girls, as opposed to the huge minority who are in loving long term stable relationships, and away from the beer and bright lights.

The prejudice against HIV extends to being against gays as well, but in a small village with several young people dying of HIV related infections it is interesting to see the interrelationships that form, develop and develop further after the death of the instigating point.

I have gone through the experience of having a friend die in a village where people knew we were friends and also knew we were not partners (for those of you with micro-minds), and were supportive not only of his elderly father with whom he lived, but also of my family, with whom he spent a lot of time.

In fact when I thought about it during the funerary provess over 5 days, every person in the village turned up and spent time with him. On the night he died the place next to the coffin was kept open for me, and I used it. Reaql Thai people who are used to the life of hard knocks at 5000 baht per month don't have time to express prejudice. They are too busy getting on with their lives.

And that is my considered opinion

[Ijustwannateach]

If this seems nitpicky or too arcane for you to understand, you're free to ignore me or not read the gay forum.  But these things ARE important to me, and I believe also to other gays.  If you want to post alongside us, you're going to learn about them- better late than never.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If the Moog wants to post alongside 'us' he's perfectly entitled to post what he wants. You speak for yourself - not for 'other gays' - certainly not for me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Up to you! Never claimed to to speak for other gays, just thought it likely that some might agree with my dim view of associating HIV with sexual orientation. That you don't is entirely up to you.

"Steven"

[mijan24]

I always see the boys holding hands and the lesbians with hikeys and I'm sure they got it from other girls.  If this is accepted openly at a Mathayom school, the answer to the OPs topic is yes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thai boys (and adult males) hold hands because they're friends. It's got nothing to do with being gay.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is not limited to Thais, include Vietnamese, Filipinos and I am sure the list goes on. I have personally experienced Thais holding my hand when walking around the Staff College many years ago and when you have 5 Farangs amongst 300 Thais it was just a test to suss out our reactions.

Acceptance is a very interesting "Topic" I am not gay but believe in the concept everyone to their own, it may suprise some "Gay Farangs" to know Thais accept/tolerate "Gays" amongst Thais - what they think and say about "Farang Gays" is an entirely different story.

Remember when we ask do Thais accept "Gays" we are not just limiting this question of acceptance? to "acceptance within the general Gay community" but acceptance by the community as a whole.

[Guest endure]

I always see the boys holding hands and the lesbians with hikeys and I'm sure they got it from other girls.  If this is accepted openly at a Mathayom school, the answer to the OPs topic is yes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thai boys (and adult males) hold hands because they're friends. It's got nothing to do with being gay.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is not limited to Thais, include Vietnamese, Filipinos and I am sure the list goes on. I have personally experienced Thais holding my hand when walking around the Staff College many years ago and when you have 5 Farangs amongst 300 Thais it was just a test to suss out our reactions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It applies to large parts of the Middle East too.

[orchis]

Tolerance and Acceptance are completely different things. I think Thai society tolerates well but accepts little.

Edited September 22, 2005 by orchis

[Tyree D.]

I always see the boys holding hands and the lesbians with hikeys and I'm sure they got it from other girls.  If this is accepted openly at a Mathayom school, the answer to the OPs topic is yes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thai boys (and adult males) hold hands because they're friends. It's got nothing to do with being gay.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

what about having their heads in another's lap and hands on their thingies? and for those of you that think Thialand is intolerant, have you ever been to another country?