Innocents In Thai Prisons, How Does It Usually Happen?

[Jingthing]

I recall reading that Thaksin has stated that a shockingly large percentage of prisoners in Thai prisons are completely innocent. This was while he was PM and has no relation to recent controversies of red shirt protesters in prison. While I am no fan of Thaksin, I reckon he is probably right about that. It really is a shame that this isn't a much higher profile issue in Thailand; it is truly a tragic thing to send so many innocent people to prison like that.

I thought of this again in response to this excellent film

Presumed Guilty

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1320254/

about the Mexican justice system. In Mexican justice, you are presumed guilty and must prove your innocence. Also, in Mexico, well over 90 percent of convictions are based on witness testimony only. Of course anyone who knows how fallible eyewitnesses are understands how that kind of subjective evidence often comes with a huge dose of reasonable doubt (not to mention those witnesses lying to save themselves or gang members or those just intimidated by corrupt police).

How does that compare to the Thai justice system? Are accused presumed guilty here as well? I have heard yes and no to that question in the past, so I am asking again.

http://theactivistwriter.com/2010/07/27/presumed-guilty-the-injustices-of-mexicos-justice-system/

Edited March 14, 2011 by Jingthing

[stander]

I imagine if you were to ask the inmates you would find that 90% are innocent, but in reality it’s probably more like 1%. The answer you will never know because of the system of justice here.

[bunta71]

While living in Chiang Mai a few years back, my good friend was living with a beautiful Ahka hilltribe girl. She would go nightly to the downtown night bazaar and don her costume and sell braclets,etc with her compatriots. She tells this story:

If any of these girls wander out of a very specific area, they are arrested and incarcerated in the Womens prison north of Chiang Mai. No charges, no trial. There they are made to make hill tribe souveniers that are then sold by Thai "businessmen" as authentic hill tribe products all around Thailand. As it was explained to me, if you buy the products from the girls wandering around the various night markets, the products are not made by the girls in the prison. Most other hilltribe products such as in the malls come from the prison women who get zero from their work. These are very good reliable friends whom I have no reason to doubt. What say you UG? ever hear about this sad story?

[Jingthing]

I imagine if you were to ask the inmates you would find that 90% are innocent, but in reality it’s probably more like 1%. The answer you will never know because of the system of justice here.

?!? I don't think so.

That sounds like a stereotype based on a belief that the police are almost always right, the police are almost never corrupt and sometimes don't just arrest any loser to solve a case to look like they are doing their job, that the poor get good lawyers (or that there aren't many corrupt incompetent lawyers even to those that pay lots for them), that the trial system is usually efficient and just. Come on! This is Thailand! A country with a lot of similarities to Mexico in the corruption department, but obviously a lot of differences. I didn't say the percentage I read from the Thaksin quote, because I don't have a link as I read it in a book so I can't provide a link. But I do remember something like 20 to 30 percent stuck in prison being innocent (also of course many die due to poor prison conditions/violence/brutality or are killed by the death penalty), and really horrible prisons at that.

OF COURSE, in every country in the world there are innocents in prison. OF COURSE, convicts often claim innocence to outsiders (they are often more honest with each other). But numbers DO matter in issues with this kind of thing. Each innocent person there is a tragedy but if it's a pervasive thing effecting a large percentage, it is only logical that there is something terribly wrong with the entire process of the JUSTICE SYSTEM in any country where that has happened.

While I am no expert on Thai justice, just casual reading about the processes here tell me something is not quite Kosher here in that regard. But like I said, I am no expert, and can't even answer if the accused are legally presumed guilty here, or not.

I am hoping that some people who have more knowledge (rather than reactionary guff assuming anyone in prison MUST be guilty) about this can comment.

Edited March 15, 2011 by Jingthing

[stander]

I feel quite comfortable that 99% of prison inmates are in the right place and I can accept anything up to 5% error............such is the lottery of life.

[Jingthing]

I feel quite comfortable that 99% of prison inmates are in the right place and I can accept anything up to 5% error............such is the lottery of life.

Mai bpen <deleted> rai, innit?

I do agree one percent is better than five percent or twenty percent or thirty percent, and that the exact percentage is unknowable.

However, again looking at the Mexican system which is less than perfect, analysts can actually pinpoint the specific systematic problems that increase the percentage of innocents convicted. I am pretty sure all countries have room for improvement in this regard and some have systems that are much more flawed than others, as Mexico's is. I strongly suspect Thailand is in the class of very flawed systems, though I can't prove it of course.

Thailand doesn't seem to be a culture big on investigative reporting either, there is so much corruption here, its just too dangerous (and many would say un-Thai) to challenge the status quo.

I reckon you'd change your tune if it was you (100 percent) or a loved one involved.

BTW, the film I mentioned from Mexico has been a strong influence in a transition to a major change in the Mexican justice system. By 2016, accused there will no longer be presumed guilty (and now must prove their innocence rather than the other way around).

Edited March 15, 2011 by Jingthing

[Wallaby]

I hear your frustration Jingthing.

I prefer a system where a lot of the guilty are set free because of reasonable doubt as opposed to a system a little less stringent that finds many innocents in jail.

Whilst I'm sure there are innocents in jail here in oz it is also quite diffucult to get a conviction because all 12 jurors must find the person either guilty or not guilty. There is no majority rule. If it isn't all 12 agreeing then the prosecution has to decide, in the interests of justice to both the victim and the accused whether it is worth having a retrial. Usually, for the minor crimes it will go a second time but after that they would usually just discontinue it.

I would hate to be wrongly accused and have my fate determined by a majority instead of 100%. I suppose they use the 'all 12' verdict to ensure it is actually 'beyond reasonable doubt'. Though there have been calls for a jury verdict to be accepted at 11-1. I'm not against that.

I'm sorry I can't directly answer your question and, like you, even if it was just 1 innocent person in jail, it would be 1 too many for the unlucky person.

[NALAK]

In Samui a high profile crime like rape or murder of a tourist always met with a quick arrest, usually Burmese fisherman who i am 99% sure were inoccent

[Jingthing]

In Samui a high profile crime like rape or murder of a tourist always met with a quick arrest, usually Burmese fisherman who i am 99% sure were inoccent

Not surprised, and I am also enjoying the rare opportunity to agree with Thaksin on something. I am so open minded.

[mstribling]

One flaw is the lack of jury and judges picking and choosing which evidence to review.

[Wallaby]

In Samui a high profile crime like rape or murder of a tourist always met with a quick arrest, usually Burmese fisherman who i am 99% sure were inoccent

Not surprised, and I am also enjoying the rare opportunity to agree with Thaksin on something. I am so open minded.

I gave you kudos on another thread, if I do so again your head won't fit in the bar. But I shall fear no more because you give yourself enough for both of us.

[Mario2008]

There are innocent people convicted in jail or even have been executed all over the world. Some countries have better safe guards than others, but it happens all over the world.

Prosecuting is the art of story tellling. The story doesn't have to be right, it has to be convincing in order to convict someone. The task of a lawyer is to try and shoot holes in the story of the prosecuter.

Don't forget, a judge reviews the law, that is his expertise. He is is not an expert in evaluating evidence or determining who tells the thruth.

[mstribling]

But in Thailand that is exactly what the judges do.

[NALAK]

i cant beleive all these confessions you see on Thai news and crime reconstuction the so called criminals go through, imagine in a western countries saying yes i did i reinacting the crime before it even gets to court. must be a reason for that. does not give the defense lawyer much to work on

[Jingthing]

I gave you kudos on another thread, if I do so again your head won't fit in the bar. But I shall fear no more because you give yourself enough for both of us.

Yeah, but I was being ironic.

Or was I ... ??? ...

[Ulysses G.]

I feel quite comfortable that 99% of prison inmates are in the right place and I can accept anything up to 5% error............such is the lottery of life.

I vehemently disagree and especially here. There are a lot of innocent people in prison and a lot of criminals in authority walking free.

[carmine]

I feel quite comfortable that 99% of prison inmates are in the right place and I can accept anything up to 5% error............such is the lottery of life.

I think it is quite alarming that anyone can have an opinion such as yours.

[carmine]

In Samui a high profile crime like rape or murder of a tourist always met with a quick arrest, usually Burmese fisherman who i am 99% sure were inoccent

Yes. Such arrests made for anything that can't be brushed under the carpet.

[gburns57au]

I feel quite comfortable that 99% of prison inmates are in the right place and I can accept anything up to 5% error............such is the lottery of life.

I think it is quite alarming that anyone can have an opinion such as yours.

As a prison Officer, I find that this is probably quite accurate. I have also worked in Criminal courts and again would agree that 5% is probably an accurate error rate on convictions.

You would be surprised how many "Innocent" crims are in my Jail.

[ableguy]

I imagine if you were to ask the inmates you would find that 90% are innocent, but in reality it’s probably more like 1%. The answer you will never know because of the system of justice here.

?!? I don't think so.

That sounds like a stereotype based on a belief that the police are almost always right, the police are almost never corrupt and sometimes don't just arrest any loser to solve a case to look like they are doing their job, that the poor get good lawyers (or that there aren't many corrupt incompetent lawyers even to those that pay lots for them), that the trial system is usually efficient and just. Come on! This is Thailand! A country with a lot of similarities to Mexico in the corruption department, but obviously a lot of differences. I didn't say the percentage I read from the Thaksin quote, because I don't have a link as I read it in a book so I can't provide a link. But I do remember something like 20 to 30 percent stuck in prison being innocent (also of course many die due to poor prison conditions/violence/brutality or are killed by the death penalty), and really horrible prisons at that.

OF COURSE, in every country in the world there are innocents in prison. OF COURSE, convicts often claim innocence to outsiders (they are often more honest with each other). But numbers DO matter in issues with this kind of thing. Each innocent person there is a tragedy but if it's a pervasive thing effecting a large percentage, it is only logical that there is something terribly wrong with the entire process of the JUSTICE SYSTEM in any country where that has happened.

While I am no expert on Thai justice, just casual reading about the processes here tell me something is not quite Kosher here in that regard. But like I said, I am no expert, and can't even answer if the accused are legally presumed guilty here, or not.

I am hoping that some people who have more knowledge (rather than reactionary guff assuming anyone in prison MUST be guilty) about this can comment.

There are many things here not quite kosher and the police are a good example I could list them but dont have a few hours to spare, I think you are still linked in with a Western mind set, still we all love it here.

[ableguy]

I feel quite comfortable that 99% of prison inmates are in the right place and I can accept anything up to 5% error............such is the lottery of life.

I vehemently disagree and especially here. There are a lot of innocent people in prison and a lot of criminals in authority walking free.

I agree most of them are in the army, police or government.

[stander]

I feel quite comfortable that 99% of prison inmates are in the right place and I can accept anything up to 5% error............such is the lottery of life.

I think it is quite alarming that anyone can have an opinion such as yours.

I more than comfortable with my opinion and if that alarms you then so be it.

[carmine]

I feel quite comfortable that 99% of prison inmates are in the right place and I can accept anything up to 5% error............such is the lottery of life.

I think it is quite alarming that anyone can have an opinion such as yours.

I more than comfortable with my opinion and if that alarms you then so be it.

I'm sure you are. I'm not surprised at your reply having read your initial statement.

If a member of your family was wrongly convicted and sent to the squalor of a Thai prison for life, then you would sit comfortably with that would you and just accept they were one of the unlucky ones.

You must be a true humanitarian.

[mstribling]

I feel quite comfortable that 99% of prison inmates are in the right place and I can accept anything up to 5% error............such is the lottery of life.

I think it is quite alarming that anyone can have an opinion such as yours.

I more than comfortable with my opinion and if that alarms you then so be it.

I'm sure you are. I'm not surprised at your reply having read your initial statement.

If a member of your family was wrongly convicted and sent to the squalor of a Thai prison for life, then you would sit comfortably with that would you and just accept they were one of the unlucky ones.

You must be a true humanitarian.

That is exactly what Thais do.

Life isn't fair, but it does go on.

[stander]

Are there really innocent people in prison?

It’s impossible to come up with anything accurate with regards to how many “innocent persons” are in prison.

The victims’ of crime are the ones we should care about and not the fact that there "maybe" a few erroneous cases.

[sentogawa]

Are there really innocent people in prison?

It’s impossible to come up with anything accurate with regards to how many “innocent persons” are in prison.

The victims’ of crime are the ones we should care about and not the fact that there "maybe" a few erroneous cases.

That's completely illogical. Are not those 'few erroneous cases' also victims of a crime?

[stander]

Are there really innocent people in prison?

It's impossible to come up with anything accurate with regards to how many "innocent persons" are in prison.

The victims' of crime are the ones we should care about and not the fact that there "maybe" a few erroneous cases.

That's completely illogical. Are not those 'few erroneous cases' also victims of a crime?

Let’s say for arguments sake there is rate 5% of erroneous cases, therefore 95% are exactly where they should be, now that to me is a pretty good ratio.

As to whether the 5% of erroneous cases are victims, yes they are victims of circumstances, but no system is perfect and I for one can live with that.

[oldsailor35]

In Samui a high profile crime like rape or murder of a tourist always met with a quick arrest, usually Burmese fisherman who i am 99% sure were inoccent

Yes and they get a choice...........1) Plead guilty and get 2 years or

2) Plead not guilty and end up getting 6 years.

What would you do ? Anyhow it cleans up these cases much faster ! and the BIB look good.

[manarak]

There are two types of "innocents":

1- innocents who did nothing wrong all their life

2- "innocents" who are innocent of the crime they were done in for, but live a criminal life otherwise (i.e. known drug dealers, rapists, etc.)

I have no problem with category #2 sometimes going to prison for crimes they didn't commit. And the real culprit would probably be punished for some other stuff anyway...

So, no big damage here.

What I am really concerned about is category #1.

Who has examples of cases where allegedly innocent "good people" were found guilty by the Thai judicial system and imprisoned or executed?

[gburns57au]

I hear your frustration Jingthing.

I prefer a system where a lot of the guilty are set free because of reasonable doubt as opposed to a system a little less stringent that finds many innocents in jail.

Whilst I'm sure there are innocents in jail here in oz it is also quite diffucult to get a conviction because all 12 jurors must find the person either guilty or not guilty. There is no majority rule. If it isn't all 12 agreeing then the prosecution has to decide, in the interests of justice to both the victim and the accused whether it is worth having a retrial. Usually, for the minor crimes it will go a second time but after that they would usually just discontinue it.

I would hate to be wrongly accused and have my fate determined by a majority instead of 100%. I suppose they use the 'all 12' verdict to ensure it is actually 'beyond reasonable doubt'. Though there have been calls for a jury verdict to be accepted at 11-1. I'm not against that.

I'm sorry I can't directly answer your question and, like you, even if it was just 1 innocent person in jail, it would be 1 too many for the unlucky person.

Not quite right.......Judges can take a majority of 11-1 in Oz, obviously a 12-0 is preferred. I have personally seen this occur as a court worker on Jury trials.

Remember too that if the jury gets it right 95% of the time......That means less than 5% of people in jails are innocent, some get suspended sentences etc... but it also means that 5% that should be in jail are back on the streets.