"oil" Or "oy"?

RDN · September 16, 2005

Once again the subject of oil - cooking oil - was mentioned, while my g/f was preparing breakfast.

She said: "We need some more oy".

I said: "It's pronounced 'Oil', dear".

She says: "No. It's 'Oy' ".

"No", I say, "You must try to say 'Oil' ".

"No", she says, "Thai people say "Oy".

So I think for a while and write down what I think is how "Oil" should be spelt in Thai. I show it to my g/f.

"Darling, how do you say this word?".

I show her what I wrote: ออยล์

She says: "Oil".

I said: "Perfect. That is how you pronounce 'Oil' ".

"No", she says, "It's pronounced 'Oy' ".

Totster · September 16, 2005

Well.... I surprised she didn't say " Oiyun "..

totster

middlepath · September 16, 2005

Love to hear my wife say oil in english, yep oy.

Cooking oy

car oy

olive oy

Dara · September 16, 2005

I show her what I wrote: ออยล์
She says: "Oil".

I said: "Perfect.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The word written in Thai should be pronounced "oy" since the l-sound letter has a silencer over it.....

Abandon · September 16, 2005

try 'crisps' or 'film'

Mr. Farang · September 16, 2005

I show her what I wrote: ออยล์

She says: "Oil".

I said: "Perfect.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The word written in Thai should be pronounced "oy" since the l-sound letter has a silencer over it.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is often confusion of the "silencer" over "Law Ling" , when transcripting English, it can be used to indicate that the consonant should be aspirated normally, not aspirated as an "ending sound."...

The English word "Oil" , in Thai is actualy:

น้ำมัน์

One Thai phonetic spelling of the English word "Oil" is exactly as RDN suggested:

ออยล์

so the ending "L" sound is correctly aspirated as "L" and not as "N" (recalling, hopefully correctly that the ending sound of "Law Ling" sounds like an "N"). In this case, the mark above "Law Ling" indicates it should be aspirated as a "beginning sound" not an "ending sound" if the Thai speaker wants to pronounce the English word correctly in Thai.

However, since Thai does not have an ending "L" sound, it is uncommon for Thai speakers to aspirate the "odd sound from English which they do not have"... so, in Thai, the symbol is a "silencer".

In other words, Both of you are correct - from different perspectives.

Silence
The silence character is placed over a consonant which is not pronounced. It is frequently used in loanwords (words borrowed from another language and spelled phonetically with the Thai alphabet) to indicate that the original word had a letter which the Thai do not pronounce. There are also a Thai few words in which the final consonant or vowel (or occasionally even a non final consonant) is silent although not marked with the gaaran

There are other special cases.......

So, if I was going to teach a Thai speaker to pronounce the English word "Oil" I would spell out loud:

"Awe Ang" "Awe Ang" "Yaw Yuck" "Law Ling" "Gaaran" and the Thai speaker would aspirate this as "Oil."

However, if they read it as a Thai word, they will aspirate it as Oay (Oy).

Both are correct - demonstrating the complexity of transcribing languages that do not have the same tones......

The same can be said of the English consonant "V".... there is no "V" sound in Thai. Once, I spent a full hour teaching a Thai monk to pronounce "Victory" but everytime (in the beginning" he aspirated "Wictory"..... we laughed and laughed and then, for fun, I made up a new consonant calling it "Vaw Vee" to contrast to "Waw Wan" (using the style of Thai consonant) and that did not work.

Finally, I had to work on teaching my dear Brother to make a "V" sound with his lips, working tiny step-by-step muscle movements until my Most Honorable Brother made a "V" sound, for the first time in his life. ((( Think how the mouth and lips (and tongue) move for "W" and then for "V"... the motion is very different - Try it at home! )))

Then, he said "Victory" and we both laughed until tears came to our eyes.

I absolutely love Thai people and the Thai language....... some of greatest, most happy times in life have been working out some of these types of differences. There is so much beauty in diversity, and much happiness in enjoying how diverse we are - without attachment to one perspective (English) or the other (Thai). Both perspectives are great!

/edit ... for more info visit http://www.thai-language.com/default.aspx?...special_symbols

Edited September 16, 2005 by Mr. Farang

Mr. Farang · September 17, 2005

Here is another illustrative example from http://www.thai-language.com/let/206

ฮัมมิงเบิร์ด ham ming beert noun, loanword, English [นกฮัมมิงเบิร์ด][transliterally, "hummingbird"]

Kindly note that a native Thai speaker would pronounce this, when following the formal rules of the special mark, correctly as: "hummingbird" .... picking up the "R" sound as a "non-Thai" tone.

On the other hand, some native Thai speakers might completely drop the "R" sound (perhaps they are not familiar with the English word) and might say, incorrect in English but (theoretically) correct in Thai, "hummingbit".... however, I doubt many Thai's would silence the "R" as they would, more than likely, recognize this as a borrowed word from English.

Edited September 17, 2005 by Mr. Farang

Tywais · September 17, 2005

I used to spell my name like this ไมเคิล์ where the garund indicated it to be a foreign word and to pronounce the ล as "L". However a Thai friend said it doesn't need the garund and should be just ไมเคิล. So my business card has the latter spelling on it now.

So what is my name? and which spelling do you think is correct.

meadish_sweetball · September 17, 2005

There is often confusion of the "silencer" over "Law Ling" , when transcripting English, it can be used to indicate that the consonant should be aspirated normally, not aspirated as an "ending sound."...
The English word "Oil" , in Thai is actualy:

น้ำมัน์

Nice contributions Mr. Farang, but allow me to correct your use of the word 'aspirate'. Above, you use it as a synonym of 'pronounce'. This is incorrect, it is better to use the word 'pronounce' here to avoid confusion.

'Aspirated' in phonetics terminology is used to distinguish the pronunciation of voiceless sounds (in English, the different quality of the 't' sounds in 'top' and 'stop', in Thai, the difference betwen ค (aspirated) and ก (unaspirated), ท (aspirated) and ต (unaspirated)).

In 'top', the 't' takes a puff of air afterwards (before the vowel sound), but in 'stop', there is no puff of air after t and before the vowel sound. More info here: Aspiration (phonetics) from Wikipedia.

One Thai phonetic spelling of the English word "Oil" is exactly as RDN suggested:
ออยล์

so the ending "L" sound is correctly aspirated as "L" and not as "N" (recalling, hopefully correctly that the ending sound of "Law Ling" sounds like an "N"). In this case, the mark above "Law Ling" indicates it should be aspirated as a "beginning sound" not an "ending sound" if the Thai speaker wants to pronounce the English word correctly in Thai.

That's not entirely true either. The function of the garan is to silence one or more letters, just as described in thai-language.com.

Phonetic transcription of English words in Thai school textbooks used for studying English does not have 'garan'.

'Garan' is used for the English words that have made their way into Thai or that occur in an all-Thai environment, such as newspapers. Of course, Thais who speak English well may choose to ignore the garan when reading out the word aloud, but most do not.

In the schoolbooks, to indicate that a letter should not be silent, Thai uses a small circle underneath the letter that should be pronounced. I don't know where to find this symbol on my keyboard, so I can't demonstrate it properly.

Also, น้ำมัน does not take a 'garan' - I assume that was a remnant caused by editing.

Mr. Farang · September 17, 2005

Nice contributions Mr. Farang, but allow me to correct your use of the word 'aspirate'. Above, you use it as a synonym of 'pronounce'. This is incorrect, it is better to use the word 'pronounce' here to avoid confusion.

Thanks Meadish! You are right, I was using the term too broadly:

aspirate:
# Linguistics.

1. To pronounce (a vowel or word) with the initial release of breath associated with English h, as in hurry.

2. To follow (a consonant, especially a stop consonant) with a puff of breath that is clearly audible before the next sound begins, as in English pit or kit.

Also, น้ำมัน does not take a 'garan' - I assume that was a remnant caused by editing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, I noticed that "cut and paste" error (the extra symbol), but ThaiVisa has some odd configuration about editing posts - you can't edit posts a few minutes after you post. I think this configuration should be modified. and people should be able to edit their own posts with more flexibility. BTW, I administer a different on-line technology forum with over 30,000 users, and we permit editing by posters anytime, to correct typos and errors.

As far as how "garan" is used in Thai textbooks you have seen, all textbooks I have seen use the "garan" for words when the tone is pronounced differently, and that is how I was also taught by Thai Monks (who were also commissioned by Thais to teach children of Thai officials abroad) - just like the ending "Law Ling" example, must use "garan" to be pronounced correctly, not as a final consonant - or a tone (sound) that does not exist in Thai.

Thanks for elaborating, BTW, Meadish. If you (or anyone reading) have any Thai textbooks that show English words (transcribed to Thai) without "garan" where there should be (according to Thai rules) then please scan and post the PDF file, so we can take a look! I suspect that some of these textbooks you mention have errors, but without a scanned page, it is not practical for me to comment further. I simply am restating the rule as I have been taught by Thais in formal education, and provided a reference link to a Thai site that has the exact same rules. This is the rule for "garan", as I was taught:

http://www.thai-language.com/default.aspx?...special_symbols

Yours sincerely,

Mr. Farang

Edited September 17, 2005 by Mr. Farang

loong · September 17, 2005

I used to spell my name like this ไมเคิล์ where the garund indicated it to be a foreign word and to pronounce the ล as "L". However a Thai friend said it doesn't need the garund and should be just ไมเคิล. So my business card has the latter spelling on it now.
So what is my name? and which spelling do you think is correct.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your name is Michael and as far as I understand ไมเคิล would be one of the correct? ways to spell it (without the Garen). All Thais that I know will pronounce it My-Kon not

My-Ke®n as ไมเคิล should be pronounced so I am not sure. I will have to look at my step-son's birth certificate as his name is Michael.

Mr. Farang · September 17, 2005

I used to spell my name like this ไมเคิล์ where the garund indicated it to be a foreign word and to pronounce the ล as "L". However a Thai friend said it doesn't need the garund and should be just ไมเคิล. So my business card has the latter spelling on it now.
So what is my name? and which spelling do you think is correct.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your name is Michael and as far as I understand ไมเคิล would be one of the correct? ways to spell it (without the Garen). All Thais that I know will pronounce it My-Kon not

My-Ke®n as ไมเคิล should be pronounced so I am not sure. I will have to look at my step-son's birth certificate as his name is Michael.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because "Law Ling" is pronounced in Thai as an "N" as a final consonant, to be formally correct, you must put the "gaaran" over the last "L" ("Law Ling") in the Thai transcription of Micheal, or Thai people will mispronounce your name with a final "N" sound.

Kindly find attached a text book extract from Thailand (in PDF) with a section on using "gaaran".

Also, please note that there is considerable "transcription controversy" in Thailand on how to transcribe final consonant sounds to English. Even very large Thai corporations, like Thai International Airways, makes errors in very public publications, like the inflight magazine. Many Thai people simply do not like to correctly transcribe final consonant sounds to English, and this creates considerable mispronounciations, time and time again.

The classic example is the TG mis-transcription of "SAWATDEE" (the TG in-flight magazine) where they transcribe, incorrectly, as "SAWASDEE" because, at one point in time, I assume, TG staff made this transcription error, and they will not correct it. The final sound for "S" in Thai is "T", never, "S" unless there is a "gaaran" over the Thai consonant.

Writing.Lesson.07.Sound.Killer.pdf

Edited September 17, 2005 by Mr. Farang

Tywais · September 17, 2005

Because "Law Ling" is pronounced in Thai as an "N" as a final consonant, to be formally correct, you must put the "gaaran" over the last "L" ("Law Ling") in the Thai transcription of Micheal, or Thai people will mispronounce your name with a final "N" sound.

That was my understanding, only changed because a Thai friend said otherwise. Need to make new business cards.

The final sound for "S" in Thai is "T", never, "S" unless there is a "gaaran" over the Thai consonant.

At least I got this one right โรดส์ my last name and no-one has said it was wrong yet.

Was just going through my storge area and forgot about this book. "The Fundamentals of the Thai Language" by Stuart Campbell and Chuan Shaweevongs. It is the first book I got to improve on my grammer, my basic Thai was fine but needed to expand on it. The definition of the garun in it is basic, silencer and usually used with foreign words. Will look at your recommended reading link.

Edited September 17, 2005 by tywais

Mr. Farang · September 17, 2005

Because "Law Ling" is pronounced in Thai as an "N" as a final consonant, to be formally correct, you must put the "gaaran" over the last "L" ("Law Ling") in the Thai transcription of Micheal, or Thai people will mispronounce your name with a final "N" sound.

That was my understanding, only changed because a Thai friend said otherwise. Need to make new business cards.

The final sound for "S" in Thai is "T", never, "S" unless there is a "gaaran" over the Thai consonant.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

At least I got this one right โรดส์ my last name and no-one has said it was wrong yet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well said. If you do not use a gaaran in your name, Thai speakers will mispronounce your name with a final consonant "T" sound. You absolutely need a gaaran if you do not want ot be called a different name :-)

I'm a bit unclear about your name,โรดส์. Could you write it in English for me and provide the way you pronounce your name so I can check the transcription?

Edited September 17, 2005 by Mr. Farang

loong · September 17, 2005

Rhodes?

I spose withothouit garang it would be Ro-dot

Edited September 17, 2005 by loong

Tywais · September 17, 2005

Rhodes?

You got it spelling and all, didn't go to my profile area did you

Edited September 17, 2005 by tywais

Mr. Farang · September 17, 2005

Rhodes?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You got it spelling and all, didn't go to my profile area did you

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Rhodes - yes, I would use gaaran. As Loong replied, unless you are OK with being called Rodot :-) ... which could be a very cool name

Mr. Farang · September 17, 2005

OBTW: Bambi gave a great example of the use of gaaran in transcription in this recent post:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=44908

gintOnic · September 17, 2005

"Darling, how do you say this word?".
I show her what I wrote: ออยล์

She says: "Oil".

I said: "Perfect. That is how you pronounce 'Oil' ".

"No", she says, "It's pronounced 'Oy' ".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am surprised your gf read the word ออยล์ as 'Oil'. In Thai that word is pronounced as 'Oy' not 'Oil'. Well I know that's not correct to say the word 'oil' in English but that's how Thai pronounce the word.

Just rememeber to say 'Oy' for 'Oil' to (some) Thai - or they will never get what you are trying to say at all

gintOnic

Tywais · September 17, 2005

"Darling, how do you say this word?".

I show her what I wrote: ออยล์

She says: "Oil".

I said: "Perfect. That is how you pronounce 'Oil' ".

"No", she says, "It's pronounced 'Oy' ".

I am surprised your gf read the word ออยล์ as 'Oil'. In Thai that word is pronounced as 'Oy' not 'Oil'. Well I know that's not correct to say the word 'oil' in English but that's how Thai pronounce the word.

Just rememeber to say 'Oy' for 'Oil' to (some) Thai - or they will never get what you are trying to say at all

gintOnic

Just used Thaisoft PC dictionary and it shows this ออยล no garuun but of course it was written by a Thai and the same rules of incorrect transliteration probably applies.

Mr. Farang · September 17, 2005

Just used Thaisoft PC dictionary and it shows this ออยล no garuun but of course it was written by a Thai and the same rules of incorrect transliteration probably applies.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For words where a final consonant is never (or rarely) used in Thai, some Thai transcribers have created a "pseudo post modern rule" where they drop the gaaran. This is not formally correct, but is used often in these situations by people who are "less than energetic" to write the gaaran symbol.

We do similar things in manners of speaking, like the polite Thai article "Krap" for male speakers. In most situations, people say "Kap" as to not "expend energy" to say the formal "R" sound. I suspect that this tendancy exists in transcription as well, especially in Thailand where dropping formality to "save energy" is normal. For this reason, and, others, people will often disagree on English-Thai transcription. My recommendation is to error on the side of "formal correctness" in spelling.

Another example are "antique" consonants in the Thai alphabet. Many people will struggle to keep them, to be culturally correct and to keep the Thai heritage linkage. Others would be perfectly happy to abandon "those old dusty, rusty antique letters" .

In the final analysis, it is up to you to spell your name (in Thai) how you would like to spell it - and if you decide to drop the gaaran, so be it - many people will mispronounce and other may not. My experience is to use gaaran, and I have never known a native Thai speaker to complain or correct me when I spell with gaaran.

PS: Then again, I'm a bit "old fashioned" because I was formally educated by Thais who were very serious about maintaining Thai culture and heritage - and I have adopted this conservative worldview toward Thailand and Thai culture from my teachers and personal experiences.

Edited September 17, 2005 by Mr. Farang

gintOnic · September 17, 2005

That was my understanding, only changed because a Thai friend said otherwise. Need to make new business cards.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, just keep your business card as what it is. ไมเคิล is correct for being written in Thai. However, it is true Thai will pronounce 'L' in your name as 'N' but if you put a 'garun' on your name as ไมเคิล์ <<< this spelling is actually can't be read! So, the best way is, to give Thai your name card and tell them how to pronounce it correctly

I am surprised your gf read the word ออยล์ as 'Oil'. In Thai that word is pronounced as 'Oy' not 'Oil'. Well I know that's not correct to say the word 'oil' in English but that's how Thai pronounce the word.

Just rememeber to say 'Oy' for 'Oil' to (some) Thai - or they will never get what you are trying to say at all

gintOnic

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just used Thaisoft PC dictionary and it shows this ออยล no garuun but of course it was written by a Thai and the same rules of incorrect transliteration probably applies.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Even this ออยล with no garuun still it is read as 'Oy' If you really want to teach your Thai friend to say the word 'Oil', you may try with this reading 'ออย-เอล'

Let me know if it does work somehow!

gintOnic

Edited September 17, 2005 by gintonic

Mr. Farang · September 17, 2005

That was my understanding, only changed because a Thai friend said otherwise. Need to make new business cards.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, just keep your business card as what it is. ไมเคิล is correct for being written in Thai. However, it is true Thai will pronounce 'L' in your name as 'N' but if you put a 'garun' on your name as ไมเคิล์ <<< this spelling is actually can't be read! So, the best way is, to give Thai your name card and tell them how to pronounce it correctly

I am surprised your gf read the word ออยล์ as 'Oil'. In Thai that word is pronounced as 'Oy' not 'Oil'. Well I know that's not correct to say the word 'oil' in English but that's how Thai pronounce the word.

Just rememeber to say 'Oy' for 'Oil' to (some) Thai - or they will never get what you are trying to say at all

gintOnic

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just used Thaisoft PC dictionary and it shows this ออยล no garuun but of course it was written by a Thai and the same rules of incorrect transliteration probably applies.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Even this ออยล with no garuun still it is read as 'Oy' If you really want to teach your Thai friend to say the word 'Oil', you may try with this reading 'ออย-เอล'

Let me know if it does work somehow!

gintOnic

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, gintonic is not formally correct, as there are no spelling rules in any text books that I have ever seen that support his (strong) opinion.

Bambi can provide an excellent transcription for Micheal. Bambi, can you help Micheal with his Thai transcription?

Edited September 17, 2005 by Mr. Farang

Mr. Farang · September 17, 2005

BTW, I do agree with gintonic that this transcription:

ไมเคิล์ is not exactly correct.

Totster · September 17, 2005

That was my understanding, only changed because a Thai friend said otherwise. Need to make new business cards.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, just keep your business card as what it is. ไมเคิล is correct for being written in Thai. However, it is true Thai will pronounce 'L' in your name as 'N' but if you put a 'garun' on your name as ไมเคิล์ <<< this spelling is actually can't be read! So, the best way is, to give Thai your name card and tell them how to pronounce it correctly

I am surprised your gf read the word ออยล์ as 'Oil'. In Thai that word is pronounced as 'Oy' not 'Oil'. Well I know that's not correct to say the word 'oil' in English but that's how Thai pronounce the word.

Just rememeber to say 'Oy' for 'Oil' to (some) Thai - or they will never get what you are trying to say at all

gintOnic

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just used Thaisoft PC dictionary and it shows this ออยล no garuun but of course it was written by a Thai and the same rules of incorrect transliteration probably applies.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Even this ออยล with no garuun still it is read as 'Oy' If you really want to teach your Thai friend to say the word 'Oil', you may try with this reading 'ออย-เอล'

Let me know if it does work somehow!

gintOnic

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, gintonic is not formally correct, as there are no spelling rules in any text books that I have ever seen that support his (strong) opinion.

Bambi can provide an excellent transcription for Micheal. Bambi, can you help Micheal with his Thai transcription?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As I see it, gintOnic being Thai is perfectly qualified to answer. Not sure a Farang is qualified to disagree ?

totster

Mr. Farang · September 17, 2005

As I see it, gintOnic being Thai is perfectly qualified to answer. Not sure a Farang is qualified to disagree ?
totster

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You see it wrong. Many Thais make considerable and repeated English-Thai transcription errors. Two Thais, depending on their formal education and background, will repeatedly disagree. Bambi just corrected another Thai speaker in a different thread on Charles and Charlie. Bambi was correct.

You cannot say "all Thai people are right"... that is nonsense, totster. If all Thai people were "Right" on any topic, then there would never be a disagreement in the entire Kingdom of Thailand because all Thais would agree on every point, laughing out loud.

In English-Thai transcriptions, people who the most qualified have a formal education in both Thai and English. Their nationality is not important, their education is important.

Edited September 17, 2005 by Mr. Farang

Tywais · September 17, 2005

As I see it, gintOnic being Thai is perfectly qualified to answer. Not sure a Farang is qualified to disagree ?
totster

You see it wrong. Many Thais make considerable and repeated English-Thai transcription errors. Two Thais, depending on their formal education and background, will repeated disagree. Bambi just corrected another Thai speaker in a different thread on Charles and Charlie. Bambi was correct.

You cannot say "all Thai people are right"... that is nonsense, totster.

True, one Thai told me to use the garuun and another said not to, listened to the 2nd one for no particular reason.

Totster · September 17, 2005

As I see it, gintOnic being Thai is perfectly qualified to answer. Not sure a Farang is qualified to disagree ?
totster

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You cannot say "all Thai people are right"... that is nonsense, totster.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't say "all thai people are right".

I said that gintOnic was perfectly qualified to answer. I didn't think it was your place to disagree. If it's wrong then I'm sure a Thai who is suitably qualified will correct.

You have taken this all too seriously IMHO

totster

gintOnic · September 17, 2005

You see it wrong. Many Thais make considerable and repeated English-Thai transcription errors. Two Thais, depending on their formal education and background, will repeated disagree. Bambi just corrected another Thai speaker in a different thread on Charles and Charlie. Bambi was correct.
You cannot say "all Thai people are right"... that is nonsense, totster. If all Thai people were "Right" on any topic, then there would never be a disagreement in the entire Kingdom of Thailand because all Thais would agree on every point, laughing out loud.

In English-Thai transcriptions, people who the most qualified have a formal education in both Thai and English. Their nationality is not important, their education is important.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with you not all Thai are correct - depending on their formal education and background

However, what make you think Bambina should be better in Thai than me?

gintOnic

BambinA · September 17, 2005

I totally agree with ginTonic ...

well from THE Royal Instution (of TH)

Rhodes = โรดส์

Michael = ไมเคิล

IMHO , even we try to spell TH script for '''Foreign word''' it still make a prob when THais pronouce..

Better .. you guys farang should pronouce that word for TH when you wanna explain

example

OIL spell as ออยล์ pronouce in TH = oi/oy ออย but the correct sound from farang is 'ออย-เอล'

FIRE spell as ไฟร์ pronouce in TH = Fai ไฟร์but the correct sound from farang is 'ไฟ-เออะ'

Edited September 17, 2005 by BambinA

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