65,000 Monthly Income Method

[mojaco]

I meant stock sale, since corrected.

Gains in stocks are not realized unless and until you SELL them.

So I am guessing you would think a 3,000 capital gain on a gross stock sale of 10,000 would be considered income, but not monthly income, so not usable for the embassy form?

I still don't understand this issue about stock sales; maybe I need to start a new thread about it sometime, as I can't rely on the opinion of one person for something so important.

Actually all of us are agreeing that whatever makes Thai Immigration happy is the main point. I am just one of those people that are (overly perhaps) careful about signing legal documents.

Regarding stock gains . . . If I remember right, doesn't the Thai Immigration disallow having the 800,000 (if one uses this method) tied up in stocks because the actual value at any time is indefinite? Hence the 800,000 has to be in a fixed deposit or savings? So what would happen if one sold one stock for a 3,000 gain and another one for a loss of 5,000? Was there a negative "income" that year?

Anyway I think the point is to be able to satisfy Immigration that for the coming year, one will have an "income" of 65,000 or 800,000 3 months already in a Thai bank, or some such combination. Just because one had a stock sale gain of 3,000 last year doesn't mean this can be relied on for the coming year does it? It is the COMING year that Immigration is concerned with, not the past one I think.

[Jingthing]

The monies for the Thai bank account method are a separate thing than I am talking about. Using the combo method, banked money PLUS income.

The point about past income vs. projected current year income is interesting. I suppose you could project you WERE going to make a stock sale of certain amount that year; it might be more defensible if you sold the same amount year after year. Certainly you can project rental income and other kinds of income, etc.

To people who don't think it's worth considering the details of stating income, so be it, but I don't think telling people to just put down any number you like is going to be satisfactory for most people.

I am actually more confused about these issues than when this thread started. Oh well!

Edited March 20, 2011 by Jingthing

[mojaco]

Of course we could even get into "disposable income" which is "income" we might have left over that is available for us to use in Thailand if we wish. Someone could have most of his "incomes" tied up in alimony, tax liens, past debts and the like and not have much left over to live on here in Thailand.

But, for me, so far so good. I love living in Thailand, and hope none of us retirees (or married) have problems with satisfying Immigration in the coming years.

So, farewell for now.

[DPGumbypgh]

1: The IRA income will be valid and available and can always be withdrawn. Early withdrawal might incur the 10% IRS early withdrawal penalty, but that is not a factor anybody considers. The income is still being generated. Just like any other income money, there may be tax consequences. People that have pension income, also pay taxes on that, and the tax rates etc.. are not part of any declaration.

You can avoid the 10% early withdrawal penalty by using SEPP substantially equal periodic payments within the meaning of 72(t)(2)(A)(iv) of the Internal Revenue Code which would then be a regular income.

There is a website SEPP than explains the exception. For paranoid people just google 72T.net

[Sophon]

The monies for the Thai bank account method are a separate thing than I am talking about. Using the combo method, banked money PLUS income.

The point about past income vs. projected current year income is interesting. I suppose you could project you WERE going to make a stock sale of certain amount that year; it might be more defensible if you sold the same amount year after year. Certainly you can project rental income and other kinds of income, etc.

To people who don't think it's worth considering the details of stating income, so be it, but I don't think telling people to just put down any number you like is going to be satisfactory for most people.

I am actually more confused about these issues than when this thread started. Oh well!

I think I am more or less in agreement with you on this matter.

To me capital is capital whether it's placed in stocks or cash, so selling USD 10,000 worth of stocks wouldn't make it income, it would just convert your savings into another type of capital. Dividends from stocks or interest on bank accounts are (to me) clearly income. Capital gains (again to me) falls into a grey area, so if the aforementioned stocks were originally purchased for USD 8,000 the gain of USD 2,000 may or may not be considered income.

I'm not well versed in how IRAs work, but from what has been written in this topic I don't see them as fundamentally different than other types of pension accounts in other countries. As long as the account hasn't matured and has started paying out the funds in the account can in no reasonable way be considered income, even if the money can be taken out prematurely (with or without a penalty). As long as the money stays in the account and the account is still an unmatured retirement account the funds are capita not income. And until the account matures any gains on the pension account whether being interest or dividends or capital gains from stocks (or other types) can also not be considered income as it's not readily disposible until the account matures.

But that's just my opinion. Obviously, on a complicated matter like this people's perception may differ.

Sophon

[whopper]

It is a good thing that Thai immigration never reads this website, or else they might get some ideas from all this information that is shared. But dont worry, they would never look at this website. So just keep on discussing certain loopholes or changes that are needed to make it even more difficult to stay in Thailand.

[Jingthing]

It is a good thing that Thai immigration never reads this website, or else they might get some ideas from all this information that is shared. But dont worry, they would never look at this website. So just keep on discussing certain loopholes or changes that are needed to make it even more difficult to stay in Thailand.

I think they do read this website. However, I don't agree with you that this is about loopholes at least in this thread. I think it's much more about trying to determine the precise meaning of the actual rules, which are indeed vague.

[mojaco]

I think I am more or less in agreement with you on this matter.

To me capital is capital whether it's placed in stocks or cash, so selling USD 10,000 worth of stocks wouldn't make it income, it would just convert your savings into another type of capital. Dividends from stocks or interest on bank accounts are (to me) clearly income. Capital gains (again to me) falls into a grey area, so if the aforementioned stocks were originally purchased for USD 8,000 the gain of USD 2,000 may or may not be considered income.

I'm not well versed in how IRAs work, but from what has been written in this topic I don't see them as fundamentally different than other types of pension accounts in other countries. As long as the account hasn't matured and has started paying out the funds in the account can in no reasonable way be considered income, even if the money can be taken out prematurely (with or without a penalty). As long as the money stays in the account and the account is still an unmatured retirement account the funds are capita not income. And until the account matures any gains on the pension account whether being interest or dividends or capital gains from stocks (or other types) can also not be considered income as it's not readily disposible until the account matures.

But that's just my opinion. Obviously, on a complicated matter like this people's perception may differ.

Sophon

Back when I was still working, the company put in 60 cents for every dollar that I put into an (untouchable) savings plan. Then the year I turn 70.5 (not long now) I have to withdraw from the built up savings at a minimum rate (or more) set by the government (USA). In my mind, when I draw out, say, $8,000 a year from those savings, $5,000 of that is what I put in but $3,000 is "income" that I now get to take deferred from all those years ago. And if there were some miracle that caused those savings to increase in value, those increases will be "income" also. So I will have more "income" when I begin to withdraw from that savings plan.

At least that is they way I am thinking, right or wrong.

And for the individual (Whopper) that is unhappy that we are talking about what constitutes "income", he shouldn't have a problem. Just put down whatever he thinks is right. As for me I am glad there was some discussion on this. It looks like I will have a little more "income" to use shortly to guard against the weakening dollar.

[Jingthing]

I personally think the gross amount of an IRA withdrawal can be viewed as income. The IRS sees it that way for taxation purposes (if its a Roth I think it's still seen as an income event, though in that case, a non-taxable income event). Money in an IRA isn't "normal" money. Withdrawing it is an income event. The internal ebbs and flows aren't ever taxed or seen as income; only withdrawals.

Edited March 21, 2011 by Jingthing

[mojaco]

I personally think the gross amount of an IRA withdrawal can be viewed as income. The IRS sees it that way for taxation purposes. Money in an IRA isn't "normal" money. Withdrawing it is an income event. The internal ebbs and flows aren't ever taxed as income; only withdrawals.

That would help even more. In my case 15% of the contributions I made were "after tax" and the rest were "pre-tax" including the "company match" so the rest (85%) will be taxable, and following your reasoning (which seems right) that 85% will be "new" "income" as the IRS defines it. But even the "already-taxed income" was never available to me as "income", so I believe your are correct and the entire 100% is "income". Thanks!

[Jingthing]

Well don't thank me. That's how I see it and if I was doing IRA withdrawals I personally would be comfortable claiming the gross amount income for the embassy letter. My rationale is that I would report the gross amount as taxable income on my US tax return. The acid test of course would be if Thai immigration officers see it that the same way in any case where they did ask for more info/documentation for an income letter claim. The only way we can learn about this is from personal experience or reports people post about it.

Of course, maybe I'm wrong about this. Do others (who understand IRAs) see it differently?

Edited March 21, 2011 by Jingthing

[TacoBoy]

Bottom line:

A Certified Letter of Income from an Embassy or Consulate is a valid legal document from your home Country. This is where the referance of income from your Government is applicable. The income is "Certified" by your Government thru the Embassy or consulate. IMHO, You do not need to justify the means to the end result of your income letter certified by a foreign embassy to immigration. This letter is a legal document from your government. Whether they require all proof or not is up to the individual Embassy or Government.

There can be implications if you claim income that is not valid and true, but that is another story and subject to legal interpritation by your home country.

Edited March 21, 2011 by TacoBoy

[Jingthing]

Bottom line:

A Certified Letter of Income from an Embassy or Consulate is a valid legal document from your home Country. IMHO, You do not need to justify the means to the end result of your income letter certified by a foreign embassy to immigration. This letter is a legal document from your government. Whether they require all proof or not is up to the individual Embassy or Government.

There can be implications if you claim income that is not valid and true, but that is another story and subject to legal interpritation by your home country.

I find that too literal for reality.

Say you tell the embassy 20,000 income.

Then if the officer asks, what is that income, and you say, oh that's my pension. OK, please show the paper. Here's the paper, the paper says 10,000 income. In that case, if you're lucky your application gets declined only. Granted, it would be smarter to claim you don't have the documentation than to implicate yourself so obviously. The legal reality is that Thai immigration does have every right to demand extra documentation at their discretion. Do they usually? Pretty clearly, not. But that doesn't make fabricating numbers without a rationale smart.

As long as this subject is brought up, supposing immigration DID catch an applicant in a blatant lie about income. Then what? Beyond application rejection, what could/would happen exactly?

Edited March 21, 2011 by Jingthing

[TacoBoy]

Bottom line:

A Certified Letter of Income from an Embassy or Consulate is a valid legal document from your home Country. IMHO, You do not need to justify the means to the end result of your income letter certified by a foreign embassy to immigration. This letter is a legal document from your government. Whether they require all proof or not is up to the individual Embassy or Government.

There can be implications if you claim income that is not valid and true, but that is another story and subject to legal interpritation by your home country.

I find that too literal for reality.

Say you tell the embassy 20,000 income.

Then if the officer asks, what is that income, and you say, oh that's my pension. OK, please show the paper. Here's the paper, the paper says 10,000 income. In that case, if you're lucky your application gets declined only.

if you claim 20,000 and you only have 10,000 then you have legal implications with your government, not up to thailand. A Certified letter of income meets the Thai requirement, Period !

Jingting, You are making too much out of this. You are trying to be the devil's advocate and justify immigrations questioning of an official certified letter of income from your respective government. If they refuse to accept it, contact your embassy or consular official or an attorney.

This argument is no differnt from questioning a Doctors certification that you do not have elephantitis, or a Police proof that you are not a Criminal, or even them questioning any foreign governments official stamp or visa in your passport.

How about immigration check the validity of every bank statment, rental income, IRA's, on and on

The letter is "Official", Bottom Line.

it is up to the offical certifying your income letter to confirm and certify your income. I prove what income I state every time to my embassy.

The legal point is that the letter is an offical document certifying income from your coutries government.

I personally would not get in a tit for tat with immigration over the legality of my letter. I would simply refer back to the embassy or consular staff to deal with immigrations questioning the validity of my letter of income. And if need be, a Thai Attorney.

Immigration can ASSUME whatever they want, but the letter from yor embassy certified is legal.

Edited March 21, 2011 by TacoBoy

[Jingthing]

if you claim 20,000 and you only have 10,000 then you have legal implications with your government, not up to thailand. A Certified letter of income meets the Thai requirement, Period !

Jingting, You are making too much out of this. You are trying to be the devil's advocate and justify immigrations questioning of an official certified letter of income from your respective government. If they refuse to accept it, contact your embassy or consular official or an attorney.

I hear your position but personally I think it is off base. We have indeed had reports here of officers asking for documentation to support the embassy letters. We know for a fact that they know Americans don't need to prove anything to the embassy; that is no secret. So we will have to agree to disagree. I am clear on this, if you come with a letter, IF you are asked for more proof, and you can't prove it, you MAY have a problem. How big a problem, I have no idea.

In other words, you really can't assert that Thai immigration MUST accept the embassy letters as the only proof of income. They may usually accept them, but they are not legally obligated to. I don't NEED to justify what Thai immigration does. They will do what they will do; nothing to do with non-Thais. It's our job to manage dealing with their system.

Edited March 21, 2011 by Jingthing

[TacoBoy]

Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Kingdom of Thailand requirements:

. Required Documents

- Passport with validity of not less than 18 months.

- 3 copies of completed visa application forms.

- 3 passport-sized photos (4 x 6 cm) of the applicant taken within the past six

months.

- A personal data form.

- A copy of bank statement showing a deposit of the amount equal to and not less than 800,000 Baht or an income certificate (an original copy) with a monthly income of not less than 65,000 Baht, or a deposit account plus a monthly income totalling not less than 800,000 Baht.

- In the case of submitting a bank statement, a letter of guarantee from the bank (an original copy) is required.

- A letter of verification issued from the country of his or her nationality or residence stating that the applicant has no criminal record (verification shall be valid for not more than three months and should be notarised by notary organs or the applicant's diplomatic or consular mission).

- A medical certificate issued from the country where the application is submitted, showing no prohibitive diseases as indicated in the Ministerial Regulation No.14 (B.E. 2535) (certificate shall be valid for not more than three months and should be notarised by notary organs or the applicant's diplomatic or consular mission).

The OP's original question was "who certifies the Income Certificate".

A person can either show immigration all their income, or go to their Embassy or Consulate for an Income Certificate to meet the requirements of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs

Edited March 21, 2011 by TacoBoy

[Mario2008]

The Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs has nothing to do with immigration and extensions of stay, which is part of the Royal Thai Police and falls under the Interior Ministry.

The Thai Foreign Ministry issues visas (permission to trvale to Thailand, but not a permision to enter and stay), the right to enter and stay in Thailand is granted by immigration.

[Jingthing]

Post 46 is about O-A visas obtained in your home country. Obviously, you wouldn't be going to YOUR embassy in your home country to certify income. This thread I assume is about annual extensions based on retirement obtained in Thailand. In that case, your embassy/consulate in Thailand is where you go for the income letter for immigration. Different countries have different requirements in granting you the letter, ranging from no info needed to convincing documentation.

[tutsiwarrior]

Here's the wording from the US Embassy letter:

"I also affirm that I receive in amount of US$_____ every month from the United States Government and/or other sources."

Pretty clear to me that "every month" disallows certain types of monies.

and no one sez that the funds have to be remitted to an account in Thailand...

when I went in a few months ago to change from a marriage extension to a retirement extension I came armed with my contract of employment...(ain't no law sez that you gotta obtain the required funds from 'retirement' sources; pension, investments, etc....being over 50 y/o is the only criterion...) and no one asked to see it for either the ACS certification or for the extension from the immigration office...

the otherwise kindly lady at BBK ACS eyed me up in a significant way and then had me swear an oath that the foregoing is true (I have a large monthly salary from a EU company...)...I got the same suspicious treatment at the immigration office...and I wuz well dressed an' all ...

worst case scenario would be for them to rip up the contract of employment in a gesture of extreme disrespect and demand to see bank statements instead...not totally unlikely given the prevailing concerns...

[TacoBoy]

The experienced and the so called wanna be advice attorneys have gotten off track and tried to make a mockery out of the fact that a letter from your Embassy or Consulate suffices as proof of income.

Nomenclature from the Minestry of Foreign Affairs is pretty much verbeitum to words used in Immigration etc for meeting visa requirments of income.

A challenge to an offical document certified by a foreign government should only be responded to by strict adhearance to principals and reported to your appropriate govenment, or an attorney. To succomb to this illegal challenge is improper and has to be delt with appropriately.

Immigration does not have a right to challenge a document they say they accept.

I can go on all day about many scams of money in the bank, income forms forged on and on. Those persons without income and proper funds know exactly how to do it. Please do not make me openly discuss it here, as some have made a mockey and questioned certain govenments verifying income. Want me to elaborate for all to see Dont think so, so BAK KANG !

Lets not get off topic and make problems without merit.

BTW, the OP did not say that this is for an extension of a current Visa. Do not Assume what you do not know.

A visa O-A can be obtained at any foreign Thai Embassy or Consulote following the rules of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Thai Embassy's worldwide.

An extension must meet similar if not exact conformity.

Edited March 21, 2011 by TacoBoy

[Jingthing]

The experienced and the so called wanna be advice attorneys have gotten off track and tried to make a mockery out of the fact that a letter from your Embassy or Consulate suffices as proof of income.

Nomenclature from the Minestry of Foreign Affairs is pretty much verbeitum to words used in Immigration etc for meeting visa requirments of income.

A challenge to an offical document certified by a foreign government should only be responded to by strict adhearance to principals and reported to your appropriate govenment, or an attorney.

Immigration doe not have a right to challenge a document they say they accept. If they do, they are liable.

I can go on all day about many scams of money in the bank, income forms forged on and on.

Lets not get off topic and make problems without merit.

BTW, the OP did not say that this is for an extension of a current Visa. Do not Assume what you do not know.

A visa O-A can be obtained at any foreign Thai Embassy or Consulote folling the rules of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

An extension must meet similar if not exact conformity.

Someone starting with an O-A who is permanently retiring in Thailand is normally going to enter the retirement extension system before too long, so the situation with retirement extensions is of interest to anyone planning retirement in Thailand.

As I said before, the situation is different for applying for O-A vs. extensions. For example, for the O-A medical form and police report required, extensions not. Also if qualifying using banked money, the money can be in the home country for O-A, for extensions it MUST be in a Thai bank account.

As far as your legal assertion that

Immigration doe not have a right to challenge a document they say they accept. If they do, they are liable.

I guess we are back to having to agree to disagree. We have heard a number of reports over the years of immigration asking for further documentation than is in the specific listed requirements, including asking about income when there is an embassy letter.

Maybe this is a semantic thing for you. To me, if they sometimes ask, and as far as I know they DO have to right at any time to ask for additional information, that is a challenge to a document (although it may be seen instead as a challenge to the honesty of the person presenting the document).

Maybe one of our grand poobah official thaivisa gurus can settle this odd disagreement, or maybe, more likely, it's a trifle of a semantic difference of interpretation and isn't worth further comment!

Edited March 21, 2011 by Jingthing

[TacoBoy]

Go to Sleep Jingting. It is not worth it ! Let it rest............

We all know TIT, but does not mea we have to Khao Tao to everyting. Some may, but I will not on the subject of some local yocal questioning a legal valid document from my government per their own spec's ! No way Jose wilol I ever bow to that. I may Cahtort to many a thing in thailand, but this one.... never

I will take it up with a local immigration attorney or with my Embassy. Right is right and wrong is wrong, they can try, but they made the rule and wording.

BTW do you ever sleep ? You are on this forum 24/7 !:jap:

Edited March 21, 2011 by TacoBoy

[jazzbo]

It has been my personal experience over about 5 years that on several occasions -- before signing my affirmation of monthly income letter -- the US Consular Official will ask if I am aware that the Thai IMM Officer has the right to ask for corroborating documentation.

The US Embassy does not 'certify' anything; the affirmation letter just states that the person in question stated under under oath to a US government official that they claim such an income.

Edited March 21, 2011 by jazzbo

[jazzbo]

>... and Immigration Police Order 777/2551 -- before listing the documentation required for the 31 reasons for extension of stay -- says that these are "Criteria for Consideration of Granting an Alien Extension of Stay in the Kingdom." It does not say that any alien having such documentation is automatically granted such stay.

[alantheembalmer]

You can just imagine the implications if the US Embassy passed on your sworn statement details to the IRS.

You tell the IRS that your income is 1,500 dollars p.m., and then you swear at the embassy that your income is 2,500 dollars p.m., falsely, so that you can remain in Thailand.

Which figure do you think the IRS will believe? Oh, and by the way, remember that your government is trying to get every cent out of its citizens.

[Mario2008]

You can just imagine the implications if the US Embassy passed on your sworn statement details to the IRS.

You tell the IRS that your income is 1,500 dollars p.m., and then you swear at the embassy that your income is 2,500 dollars p.m., falsely, so that you can remain in Thailand.

Which figure do you think the IRS will believe? Oh, and by the way, remember that your government is trying to get every cent out of its citizens.

Well, either you made a false sworn statement and can be prosecuted for that or you can be prosecuted for tax evasion.

[Jingthing]

You can just imagine the implications if the US Embassy passed on your sworn statement details to the IRS.

You tell the IRS that your income is 1,500 dollars p.m., and then you swear at the embassy that your income is 2,500 dollars p.m., falsely, so that you can remain in Thailand.

Which figure do you think the IRS will believe? Oh, and by the way, remember that your government is trying to get every cent out of its citizens.

An interesting point, but I have never heard any reports saying people thought the embassy actually DOES share that form info with the IRS. Not saying it isn't possible.

[jazzbo]

There is nothing about the affirmation of income as issued by the US Embassy in Bangkok that would preclude that such income is from prior years' earnings which have been properly declared to the IRS and for which any taxes due have already been paid... and your current year's earnings as far as the IRS is concerned could be zero.

[phuketrichard]

You can just imagine the implications if the US Embassy passed on your sworn statement details to the IRS.

You tell the IRS that your income is 1,500 dollars p.m., and then you swear at the embassy that your income is 2,500 dollars p.m., falsely, so that you can remain in Thailand.

Which figure do you think the IRS will believe? Oh, and by the way, remember that your government is trying to get every cent out of its citizens.

Well u can report $2,500 on ur tax as Americans are alowed $82,000/year tax free if ur an expat.

[Jingthing]

You can just imagine the implications if the US Embassy passed on your sworn statement details to the IRS.

You tell the IRS that your income is 1,500 dollars p.m., and then you swear at the embassy that your income is 2,500 dollars p.m., falsely, so that you can remain in Thailand.

Which figure do you think the IRS will believe? Oh, and by the way, remember that your government is trying to get every cent out of its citizens.

Well u can report $2,500 on ur tax as Americans are alowed $82,000/year tax free if ur an expat.

US sourced income is not exempt for expats. Americans getting embassy letters for retirement visa qualification are typically using US based income streams.