Thailand To Proceed With High Speed Rail Project

[tombkk]

It certainly won't stop in "most" Isaan provinces as one poster suggested because most Isaan provinces still don't have ANY rail service, and it's been over 100 years since the first tracks were laid in Thailand. Of the 19 Isaan provinces (20 if you count Bueng Kan) only eight have rail service: Korat, Khon Kaen, Udon, Nong Khai, Buriram, Surin, Sisaket and Ubon. Personally I'd rather see 'snail rail' introduced to every Isaan province than this high-speed link for a few. It's always struck me how the cheapest form of public transport isn't available to millions of the poorest Thais.

I think this rail project is not for the poorest of Thais, but for Chinese exports. Yunnan Province is landlocked, you see.

[tombkk]

Think of it as one leg of a Shanghai to Singapore line.

Correct.

I was surprised to see the check-in for trains to Hong Kong at Shanghai's main railways station. I leanred that it's a high-speed train and apparently successfully competes with the flights.

[tombkk]

Instead of being worried about high speed, let's worry aboutfixing the traffic for getting some speed in the streets. It seem it gets worseand worse, and the lack of discipline on the road also makes it worse anddangerous

I agree with you. As for sure they will spend millions on the planing of this project. Announce the starting and finishing date's then put it on hold. In the mean time, there will have been some nice little earners?

jb1

Sorry but you are both stuck in a last century mentality. The best way to improve traffic flow in a city like Bangkok and a country like Thailand is to provide cost effective, quick mass transit. We can't keep expanding roads forever, esp. as there is no space.

Traffic in BKK would be significantly improved once there is a critical mass of mass transit lines covering the city. Similarly, for highways around the country, once there are high speed rail lines it will take some of the freight and passenger traffic off the roads. The Thai Chamber of Commerce has been crying out for years for improvements to rail (as recently as 2 days ago). The railways have been negelected for decades whilst new roads have been built. Now it is time for rail transport in Thailand to catch up.

And this line will go ahead as the Chinese are funding it and will make sure it is done in 5 years. As with any project in Thailand (or any SE Asian country) - be it schools, highways or an airport - there will unfortuneately be a % of funds corruptly siphoned off for a select few.

However, in relation to driving standards no one will disagree that they are woeful. Which is why you don't want most drivers driving at a higher speed!

The rpoblems are a lack of training & public education, poor driver tests, and a lax rule of law (enforcement). As with many safety and standard issues in this country that requires a greater institutional & cultural challenge.

I agree that driver education is lacking in Thailand.

However, let's tay on topic, which is high-speed rail. From Pudong airport to Shanghai I was amazed to be carried at 431 km/h. It's the fastest scheduled rail service in the world. Long-distance high-speed trains typically go at 250-350 km/h.

[bangon04]

So the title of the OP appears to be misleading. It should read:

"Thailand will allow China to proceed with High Speed Rail Project at China's expense, as long as enough space is made in the trough for the right people in Thailand"

Edited March 22, 2011 by bangon04

[Sabre]

That's right, the Chinese referred to the Nanning-Singapore Economic Corridor in last year's ASEAN summit, linking down through Vietnam. Perhaps this railway is already part of a larger plan to culminate in the belated creation of a canal through southern Thailand, which is a very old idea and is the only way China will secure it's future energy and material needs.

Rumor has it that Singapore has already made sure such a canal will never happen ...

Nothing to do with Singapore. The Southern Thailand Canal has been scrapped because it does not make any economic sense. However, this has nothing to do with the ASEAN rail networks, whihc are going ahead.

It seems China may disagree with you ... some interesting reading here ... http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_307155.html ... but yeah, not really on topic...

[tombkk]

Below is one of the maps of the proposed route, with a spur across to Vientianne. It appears to wander down the coast of Vietnam via HCM then up to PP Cambodia and onto Poipet to connect with the line into Bangkok. Of course this is just one of the doodles of this project.

I think it is a great idea. but wyhy go through HCM if it's a China to Singapore project?

It just seems to follow existing trackage.

I don't know where you got that map from, but AFAIK the route is going straight from Kunming via the border at Tha Naleng/NongKhai to Thailand, and more or less parallel to route 2 to Bangkok. Branches off to Tavoy/Dawei in Burma (for the new port there) and to the South with ultimate destination Singapore.

[tombkk]

That's right, the Chinese referred to the Nanning-Singapore Economic Corridor in last year's ASEAN summit, linking down through Vietnam. Perhaps this railway is already part of a larger plan to culminate in the belated creation of a canal through southern Thailand, which is a very old idea and is the only way China will secure it's future energy and material needs.

Rumor has it that Singapore has already made sure such a canal will never happen ...

Nothing to do with Singapore. The Southern Thailand Canal has been scrapped because it does not make any economic sense. However, this has nothing to do with the ASEAN rail networks, whihc are going ahead.

It seems China may disagree with you ... some interesting reading here ... http://www.pittsburg...b/s_307155.html ... but yeah, not really on topic...

Not really on topic, and the article linked dates back to 2005. My information is from a concerned Thai government official based in the Thai OTP, and as of last year. I am sure it has been in the news since, but I'm too lazy to google right now.

[bkk_mike]

Think of it as one leg of a Shanghai to Singapore line.

Correct.

I was surprised to see the check-in for trains to Hong Kong at Shanghai's main railways station. I leanred that it's a high-speed train and apparently successfully competes with the flights.

I thought they were still building the high speed train link in Hong Kong. So if they're selling tickets, you might have to change train at the border, and switch to a slow train (for the time-being at least).

Unlike the bits that are already finished in China, the Hong Kong section had to get past planning meetings, proper compensation to people that have to move, etc. Similar to the Channel Tunnel rail link in the UK. The French side was built when the tunnel opened. The UK side got finished many years later. (Maybe the UK should do as France does - and compulsory purchases of land should be at 150% of value, not at market values just).

[BigBikeBKK]

It's still gonna be real slow to get to Bangkok. Think how many places it is going to stop in Issan. There are 19 provinces, I would imagine it would have to stop in at least 7-8 of these to make it viable. Can not imagine the dozen or so Laos that jump the border to head to BKK everyday are going to keep a high speed train viable. Why NongKhai to BKK. Why not BKK-Pattaya or BKK-Chiangmai? Strange

Because the Chinese are paying for it... Duh

[BigBikeBKK]

If it's 'real' high speed rail (250-350 kph) it will be based on the Chinese CRH system which is standard gauge 1,435 mm (4 ft 8 ¹⁄₂ in).

At these speeds it is essential that nothing obstructs the track so much of the route will have to be elevated or in tunnel, imagine hitting a chang at 350kph!

I heard they were using "HornbyOO"

jb1

You snob I only had Triang....... This line runs parrallel with the Highway 2 all the way. imagine the hundreds of link roads crossing this line from the EAST side to join the A2. They will have to install gates/barriers, auto'''' wake the man up in his little box and give him a pension. What will the lady do with her washing, she will have to be an olympic sprinter to get the clothes in before the flying scotsman arrives,

HSR tracks are elevated in Asia, as far as I know. At least, I haven't seen any on ground level. I you have, please let us all know.

Is Japan part of Asia? I seem to recall the Shinkansen tracks are at ground level in many parts of Japan...

[LaoPo]

That's right, the Chinese referred to the Nanning-Singapore Economic Corridor in last year's ASEAN summit, linking down through Vietnam. Perhaps this railway is already part of a larger plan to culminate in the belated creation of a canal through southern Thailand, which is a very old idea and is the only way China will secure it's future energy and material needs.

Rumor has it that Singapore has already made sure such a canal will never happen ...

Nothing to do with Singapore. The Southern Thailand Canal has been scrapped because it does not make any economic sense. However, this has nothing to do with the ASEAN rail networks, whihc are going ahead.

It seems China may disagree with you ... some interesting reading here ... http://www.pittsburg...b/s_307155.html ... but yeah, not really on topic...

Indeed and 6 years old "news" as well.

LaoPo

[koratvinnie]

It certainly won't stop in "most" Isaan provinces as one poster suggested because most Isaan provinces still don't have ANY rail service, and it's been over 100 years since the first tracks were laid in Thailand. Of the 19 Isaan provinces (20 if you count Bueng Kan) only eight have rail service: Korat, Khon Kaen, Udon, Nong Khai, Buriram, Surin, Sisaket and Ubon. Personally I'd rather see 'snail rail' introduced to every Isaan province than this high-speed link for a few. It's always struck me how the cheapest form of public transport isn't available to millions of the poorest Thais.

I think this rail project is not for the poorest of Thais, but for Chinese exports. Yunnan Province is landlocked, you see.

I understand that. What I'm saying is, given the choice (and I know no such choice exists) I would prefer to see a rail service, however slow, extended to all Isaan provinces as opposed to a high speed rail link which, according to many of the posts on here, mainly seems to be for the benefit of the Chinese. Does it not strike you as remarkable that it's now 111 years since Korat railway station opened and yet eleven of the nineteen Isaan provinces have never had any rail service?

[blazes]

That's right, the Chinese referred to the Nanning-Singapore Economic Corridor in last year's ASEAN summit, linking down through Vietnam. Perhaps this railway is already part of a larger plan to culminate in the belated creation of a canal through southern Thailand, which is a very old idea and is the only way China will secure it's future energy and material needs.

Rumor has it that Singapore has already made sure such a canal will never happen ...

Nothing to do with Singapore. The Southern Thailand Canal has been scrapped because it does not make any economic sense. However, this has nothing to do with the ASEAN rail networks, whihc are going ahead.

It seems China may disagree with you ... some interesting reading here ... http://www.pittsburg...b/s_307155.html ... but yeah, not really on topic...

Strange how most of the intelligent contributions to this thread are failing to mention the military advantages to China of a rail link that connects virtually the whole of Asia.

Let's not forget that it was the Americans, in the Vietnam War, who built Highway N2 to Khon Kaen (that is, made it into a dual carriageway) to facilitate easier access to the airport at KK, which was a staging post for Vietnam. Transportation links that helped the imperial cause to ...erm...stop the "domino effect".

[LaoPo]

Strange how most of the intelligent contributions to this thread are failing to mention the military advantages to China of a rail link that connects virtually the whole of Asia.

Military advantages to China.........really ?

A few saboteurs and the whole high speed rail track is gone into pieces in case the Chinese want to use it for military reasons.

Apart from that, every single country will demand free inspection access to the containers/wagons and/or could easily stop trains.

LaoPo

[jackr]

Sorry but you are both stuck in a last century mentality. The best way to improve traffic flow in a city like Bangkok and a country like Thailand is to provide cost effective, quick mass transit. We can't keep expanding roads forever, esp. as there is no space.

Traffic in BKK would be significantly improved once there is a critical mass of mass transit lines covering the city. Similarly, for highways around the country, once there are high speed rail lines it will take some of the freight and passenger traffic off the roads. The Thai Chamber of Commerce has been crying out for years for improvements to rail (as recently as 2 days ago). The railways have been negelected for decades whilst new roads have been built. Now it is time for rail transport in Thailand to catch up.

And this line will go ahead as the Chinese are funding it and will make sure it is done in 5 years. As with any project in Thailand (or any SE Asian country) - be it schools, highways or an airport - there will unfortuneately be a % of funds corruptly siphoned off for a select few.

However, in relation to driving standards no one will disagree that they are woeful. Which is why you don't want most drivers driving at a higher speed!

The rpoblems are a lack of training & public education, poor driver tests, and a lax rule of law (enforcement). As with many safety and standard issues in this country that requires a greater institutional & cultural challenge.

You know, one can sound smart and informed without jumping down others' throats!

While this is the way forwards, it's jumping the gun somewhat don't you think? Thailand's current rail network is woeful and needs to be addressed before high-speed lines are added to ultimately improve the lot of another country, China. The main line between CM and Hat Yai is still only one line and needs to be sorted out, as do the other radials. This one route will improve that part of the country to some degree, but will detract from the rest.

Although emphasis has been on the road system, they are also woeful. Major routes to Bangkok need to be of the motorway type, ie properly bypassing all towns with the removal of traffic lights. This would dramatically improve times between cities (and safety) and also speed up commuting by bus, which most Thais use. The locals are not all of a sudden going to jump on trains with minimal stations. Look at where you are... cars and buses will be king for a long time yet, high speed trains or no.

These points need to be addressed before money is thrown at a high-speed rail line that only serves one part and allow the Chinese (to get their army in quicker ). One needs to walk before one can run.

[whybother]

<snip>

Although emphasis has been on the road system, they are also woeful. Major routes to Bangkok need to be of the motorway type, ie properly bypassing all towns with the removal of traffic lights. This would dramatically improve times between cities (and safety) and also speed up commuting by bus, which most Thais use. The locals are not all of a sudden going to jump on trains with minimal stations. Look at where you are... cars and buses will be king for a long time yet, high speed trains or no.

<snip>

Building bigger roads just moves the bottle necks. Moving them quickly between the cities just means the cities get more congested.

Getting more people off the roads with better rail transport will improve times between cities and speed up the bus trips.

[whybother]

<snip>

Don't forget that freight/containers will be shipped at a much higher speed than now via ocean shipping.

<snip>

How long will trains need to be to replace a single ship?

[DP25]

While this is the way forwards, it's jumping the gun somewhat don't you think? Thailand's current rail network is woeful and needs to be addressed before high-speed lines are added to ultimately improve the lot of another country, China. The main line between CM and Hat Yai is still only one line and needs to be sorted out, as do the other radials. This one route will improve that part of the country to some degree, but will detract from the rest.

It doesn't mention it in this article, but they are also currently spending billions of dollars upgrading the entire rail network in Thailand to 120km/h average speed as well as double tracks. They're not just building the high speed line.

[tropiccapricorn]

50 billion dollars for around 650km of line, three or four stations, rolling stock.

Dual track line at a million a kilometre is 1.25 billion (approx)

Four stations at 20 million each (generous)

Eight trains (maximum) at 800 million each (Siemens prices)

Less than eight billion.

Who gets the rest?

Loan will be paid back by the fare structure, I assume. Over (say) 25 years.

Eight to ten journeys each way, each day, with 300 pax average.

5-6,000 pax per day (if they're lucky)

25 x 365 x 5,000 = 45,625,000 pax trips (one-way)

To pay back 50 billion (no interest calculated) each pax must pay more than US $ 1,000 per one-way journey.

And do you think that every day for the next 25 years more than 5,000 people will want to make that journey? Every day?

Typical Thailand - nobody has checked the figures. All pie-in-the-sky idiot thinking.

That's the problem. In Japan and Europe, where these fast trains run, they connect big cities with a very large

population which also can afford to buy the rather expensive tickets necessary to maintain and run such a TGV

in a save way. I don't think Thailand has got that and since the mantality here seems such that anybody

who can afford it, buys a car, so first priority will be the road.

The present railway in Thailand is good enough to throw away for a new one with normal trackgauge but

when one hears the amounts involved, I suppose it will never happen.

By the way I know of two derails, one in France where the train went off the rails at a very high speed,

stayed intact and after a long distance came to a stop without fatalities.

A IC in Germany had the same problem, but due to a different construction the carriages turned sidewards

and unfortenately, a concrete pillat got in their way resulting in many deaths.

[Lakegeneve]

Instead of being worried about high speed, let's worry aboutfixing the traffic for getting some speed in the streets. It seem it gets worseand worse, and the lack of discipline on the road also makes it worse anddangerous

I agree with you. As for sure they will spend millions on the planing of this project. Announce the starting and finishing date's then put it on hold. In the mean time, there will have been some nice little earners?

jb1

Sorry but you are both stuck in a last century mentality. The best way to improve traffic flow in a city like Bangkok and a country like Thailand is to provide cost effective, quick mass transit. We can't keep expanding roads forever, esp. as there is no space.

Traffic in BKK would be significantly improved once there is a critical mass of mass transit lines covering the city. Similarly, for highways around the country, once there are high speed rail lines it will take some of the freight and passenger traffic off the roads. The Thai Chamber of Commerce has been crying out for years for improvements to rail (as recently as 2 days ago). The railways have been negelected for decades whilst new roads have been built. Now it is time for rail transport in Thailand to catch up.

And this line will go ahead as the Chinese are funding it and will make sure it is done in 5 years. As with any project in Thailand (or any SE Asian country) - be it schools, highways or an airport - there will unfortuneately be a % of funds corruptly siphoned off for a select few.

However, in relation to driving standards no one will disagree that they are woeful. Which is why you don't want most drivers driving at a higher speed!

The rpoblems are a lack of training & public education, poor driver tests, and a lax rule of law (enforcement). As with many safety and standard issues in this country that requires a greater institutional & cultural challenge.

no, the posters are not stuck in the last century, Thailand is.

just because there is a high speed rail system it doesn't relate to traffic success. You need a wide train network system i.e. somewhat like Japan's JR & private subway system

to really ease traffic. Just because there is one high speed line connecting BKK to NongKhai is no where near solving Thailand traffic woes.

Yes of course you need a network with decent coverage! But you have to start somewhere, the SNCF had to first build that first TGV line between Paris and Lyon before expanding it. Thailand needs to provide an alternative for freight and pax to road based transport and rail has been neglected for decades with a lack of investment hence the large capital costs to modernise the network. This first line, and the 3 others which are planned over the next 10-15yrs, will provide decent geographical coverage for the main trunk transport corridors. You made the correct point that Thailand is stuck in the last century due to the obsession with the care and thus this is the opportunity to attempt to bring it partially into the current century.

I'm sure no one said in the past, "oh we cannot build an airport in our country as there are no other airports" or "we cannot build the first highway as there are no others and we need a network of highways".

[Sateev]

US$50 billion. Wow that is alot of money. How is it going to be financed? No wonder they are keen to approve this; plenty of money to spread around...

High speed to Laos and then walk over the mountains to China

It's Thai Baht, 150 billion.

Anyone care to retry the math? THB150 billion = USD5 billion (at current exchange rates).

Unless the baht appreciates to 3/USD (or the USD depreciates, most likely)...

[Lakegeneve]

Sorry but you are both stuck in a last century mentality. The best way to improve traffic flow in a city like Bangkok and a country like Thailand is to provide cost effective, quick mass transit. We can't keep expanding roads forever, esp. as there is no space.

Traffic in BKK would be significantly improved once there is a critical mass of mass transit lines covering the city. Similarly, for highways around the country, once there are high speed rail lines it will take some of the freight and passenger traffic off the roads. The Thai Chamber of Commerce has been crying out for years for improvements to rail (as recently as 2 days ago). The railways have been negelected for decades whilst new roads have been built. Now it is time for rail transport in Thailand to catch up.

And this line will go ahead as the Chinese are funding it and will make sure it is done in 5 years. As with any project in Thailand (or any SE Asian country) - be it schools, highways or an airport - there will unfortuneately be a % of funds corruptly siphoned off for a select few.

However, in relation to driving standards no one will disagree that they are woeful. Which is why you don't want most drivers driving at a higher speed!

The rpoblems are a lack of training & public education, poor driver tests, and a lax rule of law (enforcement). As with many safety and standard issues in this country that requires a greater institutional & cultural challenge.

You know, one can sound smart and informed without jumping down others' throats!

While this is the way forwards, it's jumping the gun somewhat don't you think? Thailand's current rail network is woeful and needs to be addressed before high-speed lines are added to ultimately improve the lot of another country, China. The main line between CM and Hat Yai is still only one line and needs to be sorted out, as do the other radials. This one route will improve that part of the country to some degree, but will detract from the rest.

Although emphasis has been on the road system, they are also woeful. Major routes to Bangkok need to be of the motorway type, ie properly bypassing all towns with the removal of traffic lights. This would dramatically improve times between cities (and safety) and also speed up commuting by bus, which most Thais use. The locals are not all of a sudden going to jump on trains with minimal stations. Look at where you are... cars and buses will be king for a long time yet, high speed trains or no.

These points need to be addressed before money is thrown at a high-speed rail line that only serves one part and allow the Chinese (to get their army in quicker ). One needs to walk before one can run.

Interested to know exactly which aspect aspect is "jumping down others throats"? If calling others 'stuck in the last century' when they just illogically focus just on road based transport then I am happy to wear that. It is a common term in transport planning and advocacy for those who are still fixated upon the dominace of the car which ruled the later half of the last century. Present economic, environmental, social & space realities in the world dictate that mass public transport needs investment and this is the trend in most countries.

I don't see the logic in your jumping the gun assertion The rail network in Thailand has been neglected for the last 5 decades. It has been allowed to be run down with little investment in the nwtwork (until the last decade), rolling stock and infastructure. Billions of US$ which should have been invested were not while huge amounts of public money went towards road based transport with the associated extra negative costs on the community. You are of course right that the current network is woeful. Thus currently, derailments are common, service is poor, trains are often late, accidents are common at rail crossings etc. And the management of the SRT is a mess.

Hence the current duplication of lines (for the next 20 yrs) and plans to electrify and standardise the network and pruchase new rolling stock (30 yrs). However, building high speed trunk lines (as has been done in other countries) is a generational jump of the network both modernising it and saving those funds already allocated for duplication, electification and standardisation. Essentially, what was already a 30 yr plan is potentially achieved in the next 10-15 yrs but will high speed operability.

How is that jumping the gun? Is it not more playing catch up and having the foresight to invested in a required asset for the future???? Industry, businesses and regional communities have been demanding major improvements to the network for years and years.

So now there is a cycle in which rail will catch up and that requires a large amount of investment and has significant investments for the social and economic fabric of Thailand. As I mentioned before, it is not THE solution to transport probs in this country but it will be an increasing part of it. Yes car will still be king for many years but it will attract a number of people.

Yes there will be many problems, limitations (only a single line), corruption & teething problems. The first line will only be one line but a network has to start somewhere.

[jimbeam1]

Instead of being worried about high speed, let's worry aboutfixing the traffic for getting some speed in the streets. It seem it gets worseand worse, and the lack of discipline on the road also makes it worse anddangerous

I agree with you. As for sure they will spend millions on the planing of this project. Announce the starting and finishing date's then put it on hold. In the mean time, there will have been some nice little earners?

jb1

Sorry but you are both stuck in a last century mentality. The best way to improve traffic flow in a city like Bangkok and a country like Thailand is to provide cost effective, quick mass transit. We can't keep expanding roads forever, esp. as there is no space.

Traffic in BKK would be significantly improved once there is a critical mass of mass transit lines covering the city. Similarly, for highways around the country, once there are high speed rail lines it will take some of the freight and passenger traffic off the roads. The Thai Chamber of Commerce has been crying out for years for improvements to rail (as recently as 2 days ago). The railways have been negelected for decades whilst new roads have been built. Now it is time for rail transport in Thailand to catch up.

And this line will go ahead as the Chinese are funding it and will make sure it is done in 5 years. As with any project in Thailand (or any SE Asian country) - be it schools, highways or an airport - there will unfortuneately be a % of funds corruptly siphoned off for a select few.

However, in relation to driving standards no one will disagree that they are woeful. Which is why you don't want most drivers driving at a higher speed!

The rpoblems are a lack of training & public education, poor driver tests, and a lax rule of law (enforcement). As with many safety and standard issues in this country that requires a greater institutional & cultural challenge.

I agree that driver education is lacking in Thailand.

However, let's tay on topic, which is high-speed rail. From Pudong airport to Shanghai I was amazed to be carried at 431 km/h. It's the fastest scheduled rail service in the world. Long-distance high-speed trains typically go at 250-350 km/h.

Hello I agree with you. Lets stay on topic. Now correct me if I am wrong but I was under the Impression that this topic is about Thailand to proceed with highspeed rail link from Bangkok to Nong Khai? Not highspeed rail from, Pudong airport to Shanghai?

Are you seriously telling me/us that all highspeed track in Asia is elevated?

jb1

[jimbeam1]

So the title of the OP appears to be misleading. It should read:

"Thailand will allow China to proceed with High Speed Rail Project at China's expense, as long as enough space is made in the trough for the right people in Thailand"

That is how it is now looking to me.

jb1

[jimbeam1]

Pressed the wrong button??

jb1

Edited March 23, 2011 by jimbeam1

[jimbeam1]

Sorry but you are both stuck in a last century mentality. The best way to improve traffic flow in a city like Bangkok and a country like Thailand is to provide cost effective, quick mass transit. We can't keep expanding roads forever, esp. as there is no space.

Traffic in BKK would be significantly improved once there is a critical mass of mass transit lines covering the city. Similarly, for highways around the country, once there are high speed rail lines it will take some of the freight and passenger traffic off the roads. The Thai Chamber of Commerce has been crying out for years for improvements to rail (as recently as 2 days ago). The railways have been negelected for decades whilst new roads have been built. Now it is time for rail transport in Thailand to catch up.

And this line will go ahead as the Chinese are funding it and will make sure it is done in 5 years. As with any project in Thailand (or any SE Asian country) - be it schools, highways or an airport - there will unfortuneately be a % of funds corruptly siphoned off for a select few.

However, in relation to driving standards no one will disagree that they are woeful. Which is why you don't want most drivers driving at a higher speed!

The rpoblems are a lack of training & public education, poor driver tests, and a lax rule of law (enforcement). As with many safety and standard issues in this country that requires a greater institutional & cultural challenge.

You know, one can sound smart and informed without jumping down others' throats!

While this is the way forwards, it's jumping the gun somewhat don't you think? Thailand's current rail network is woeful and needs to be addressed before high-speed lines are added to ultimately improve the lot of another country, China. The main line between CM and Hat Yai is still only one line and needs to be sorted out, as do the other radials. This one route will improve that part of the country to some degree, but will detract from the rest.

Although emphasis has been on the road system, they are also woeful. Major routes to Bangkok need to be of the motorway type, ie properly bypassing all towns with the removal of traffic lights. This would dramatically improve times between cities (and safety) and also speed up commuting by bus, which most Thais use. The locals are not all of a sudden going to jump on trains with minimal stations. Look at where you are... cars and buses will be king for a long time yet, high speed trains or no.

These points need to be addressed before money is thrown at a high-speed rail line that only serves one part and allow the Chinese (to get their army in quicker ). One needs to walk before one can run.

Interested to know exactly which aspect aspect is "jumping down others throats"? If calling others 'stuck in the last century' when they just illogically focus just on road based transport then I am happy to wear that. It is a common term in transport planning and advocacy for those who are still fixated upon the dominace of the car which ruled the later half of the last century. Present economic, environmental, social & space realities in the world dictate that mass public transport needs investment and this is the trend in most countries.

I don't see the logic in your jumping the gun assertion The rail network in Thailand has been neglected for the last 5 decades. It has been allowed to be run down with little investment in the nwtwork (until the last decade), rolling stock and infastructure. Billions of US$ which should have been invested were not while huge amounts of public money went towards road based transport with the associated extra negative costs on the community. You are of course right that the current network is woeful. Thus currently, derailments are common, service is poor, trains are often late, accidents are common at rail crossings etc. And the management of the SRT is a mess.

Hence the current duplication of lines (for the next 20 yrs) and plans to electrify and standardise the network and pruchase new rolling stock (30 yrs). However, building high speed trunk lines (as has been done in other countries) is a generational jump of the network both modernising it and saving those funds already allocated for duplication, electification and standardisation. Essentially, what was already a 30 yr plan is potentially achieved in the next 10-15 yrs but will high speed operability.

How is that jumping the gun? Is it not more playing catch up and having the foresight to invested in a required asset for the future???? Industry, businesses and regional communities have been demanding major improvements to the network for years and years.

So now there is a cycle in which rail will catch up and that requires a large amount of investment and has significant investments for the social and economic fabric of Thailand. As I mentioned before, it is not THE solution to transport probs in this country but it will be an increasing part of it. Yes car will still be king for many years but it will attract a number of people.

Yes there will be many problems, limitations (only a single line), corruption & teething problems. The first line will only be one line but a network has to start somewhere.

First of all, before making hasty replies,to posts made by others. I think you should go back to the very beginning of this topic. Read again and tell us where either givenall or myself mentioned anything about focusing only on road based transport. Also can you please answer I question I put to you, after another of your quotes . Which was how is the highspeed link from Bangkok to Nong Khai going to Improve Bangkok's traffic problems. If you can not come back with a straight and simple answer. Would you kindly refrain from answering, in a negative manner, posts made by myself. Thankyou.

jb1

[metisdead]

One post using all caps has been removed, there is no need to shout. Kindly turn off the all caps in future.

[Humphrey Bear]

150 billion Baht is not US$50 billion, it is US$5 billion

Sorry, getting senile.

But with people criticising my figures, I'll rework.

>600 km overall.

So around 1250km for dual track.

9 million dollars per km (but I don't know if single or double track)(Say double track)

5,500 million for rail line (I believe that figure includes stations)

Rolling stock - I keep to my figure - 800 million per train - 8 trains. Thus 6,400 million.

Total over 12 billion, plus maintenance.

But I still cannot see that the fare-recovery will ever match up to the servicing and repayment of the debt.

[Lakegeneve]

First of all, before making hasty replies,to posts made by others. I think you should go back to the very beginning of this topic. Read again and tell us where either givenall or myself mentioned anything about focusing only on road based transport. Also can you please answer I question I put to you, after another of your quotes . Which was how is the highspeed link from Bangkok to Nong Khai going to Improve Bangkok's traffic problems. If you can not come back with a straight and simple answer. Would you kindly refrain from answering, in a negative manner, posts made by myself. Thankyou.

jb1

Au contraire jb1 but it is you who have been negative from the beginning without offering discussion on the merits or otherwise of this project. Givenall posted and you replied as follows;

Instead of being worried about high speed, let's worry aboutfixing the traffic for getting some speed in the streets. It seem it gets worseand worse, and the lack of discipline on the road also makes it worse anddangerous

I agree with you. As for sure they will spend millions on the planing of this project. Announce the starting and finishing date's then put it on hold. In the mean time, there will have been some nice little earners?

jb1

You said , "I agree with you". What was givenalls main point? Improving traffic and "gettign some speed on the streets." You didn't discuss issues of road v rail transport, the merits of the project, other transport, social or economic issues or engage in any critical analysis. You just referred in a glib way to pre project costs and the inference of corruption - a fairly obvious and ubiquitous issue. No mention of anything positive or potential benefits of the project in that post or any of your subseqent posts.

Thus, my reply referring to your focus on road transport as being " stuck in a last century mentality" and I proceeded to highlight many of the postive elements of high speed rail whilst acknowledging the problems of corruption in any project in this country.

I also mentioned an urban, BKK, and intercity context as givenall used the term " streets" which suggests an urban context, he didn't say highways. But aside from that the fact is that both the urban BKK and the Intercity line are interelated. Thereafter, in your reply you erronenously stated, "Thailand does in fact already have mass transport lines covering the city." (Obviously you meant BKK but the incorrect part of the statement if that BKK does not have " mass transport lines covering the city"). No one anywhere would agree with that assertion, some 40kms of 3 lines hardly covers much of the city at all. I mentioned in my subsequent reply that there are plans for 14 metro lines by 2029 - that will be more akin to "covering the city". These proposed metro line preceed the NE high speed line proposal.

You then queried, "As far as I can see the high speed rail link is only from Bangkok to Nong Khai, not taking in the whole of City. So I fail to see how this will help to Improve Bangkok traffic." My reply (post #40) stated; "Whether or not you agree in whole or part with that sentiment, the point is that either in a BKK context with metro lines or a countrywide context with high speed intercity lines, there has been too much focus on roads to the detriment of good transport planning. And it does help BKK as you obviously don't know that hundreds of buses a day enter into and out of BKK to traverse this route. Good intergrated, mass transport with a HS line and a propoer metro network reduces the demand of car based traffic off the roads." Semeingly, in your haste you either didn't read this or neglected to respond to it.

Thus, I did reply and gave an example to you query. However, let me expand. Does it not make sense that an improved & speedy rail service will take a % of private cars, intercity buses and freight traffic off the roads ? Remembering that most of this line is about freight from the Chinese viewpoint. That is a basic concept which is accepted universally when new mass transport projects are proposed.

Thus, in the context of a proposed BKK to Nong Khai line where much of the passenger and freight traffic is originating or completing the journey in BKK it follows that whatever % of pax & freight moves from road based transport to mass transit then the consequences is a direct imoact upon BKK traffic by whatever %. Some of it will also move from air based transport if it is time efficient. Add in a large BKK metro network where people can take a metro, all or part of their journey, to Bang Sue or Makkasan for their journey to the NE and you have a further decrease, small that it will be. I would think that was fairly obvious is it not?

You have not discussed the merits of the project or critiqued various aspects of it. There are major logistical, economic, health and environmental benefits which flow from such a project and if not obvious they can be listed. There will be many shortcoming and problems and they require considered review, discussion and debate. However, that should be based on some attempted analysis, accepted principals & facts. The railways have been underfunded for the last 5 decades whilst massive amounts of money, with little comment, has gone into funding new roads. The huge increase in road traffic in BKK and Thailand has clear negative consequences in terms of economic inefficency, health and envrionmental costs just to name an obvious few..

Seemingly, underlying your negativity on this issue is a disposition that it is a waste of money. It may well be. But can you come up some decent arguments beyond the glib? Based on your disposition the new airport would not have been built, neither would most new highways, schools or the new govt complex as some examples.

There are many naysayers on forums who make glib remarks without debating the merits of a issue, discussing some of the pros & cons and who avoid engaging in some analysis. I wont ask you to refrain from posting, It is up to you how you in what manner you wish to post. However, I will invite to be more positive, consider some of the obvious benefits of this project and to take the time to critiquely analyse some of the issues being discussed.

[Crossy]

Are you seriously telling me/us that all highspeed track in Asia is elevated?

I don't have any figures for the Chinese system, but the Seoul - Busan High Speed Rail is 411km of which only 119km is at-grade (ground level) the rest is either elevated or in tunnels.

It is essential to keep obstructions (noodle carts, animals, vehicles, pedestrians) off the track and the easiest means is to elevate it either on concrete structures or with steep-sided embankments (or cuttings where appropriate), this also makes it easy to do away with level-crossings which are a serious accident hotspot. Any sections not elevated must be fenced to a sufficient level to prevent access to the tracks (we're not talking 3 strands of barbed wire here), this fencing must of course be maintained (with the ongoing costs).