Thailand Rejects Foreign Election Monitors

[dananderson]

Nisa, I whole heartedly agree. I refuse to worry or waste time thinking about things that I have absolyly no control over. Threads like this do bring the Thai-bashers out of the wood work and it is interesting to watch the anonymous cyber egos thump thier chests. FUBAR comes to mind...

[SiangDeeMahk]

Well you cant blame thai people for not liking farangs. Alot of creepy old horny men coming to thailand for sex.

Wow.. you are like, SO off the mark.

You Do realize that a huge percentage of the girls that have sex in Thailand, are having that sex with creepy old horny THAI men (way, WAY more than they're having it with foreign men), yes??

Maybe you better read this:

http://en.wikipedia....ion_in_Thailand

And anyway, this isnt a story about how "many Thai people" said that they dont respect (or didn't like) farang, it's how the PM of a entire country (of 55+ Million people) outrageously said it, in public. While surrounded by other Asian countries that didn't say it, don't say it, and treat foriegner better than Thailand does. And at a time when precious foriegn dollars are getting harder and harder to come by, and they more and more frequently are going to other, more friendly, less scamfilled, more stable, less corrupted, better exchange rated nearby countries, instead of Thailand.

[Payboy]

Well you cant blame thai people for not liking farangs. Alot of creepy old horny men coming to thailand for sex.

Ouch!!!

[hitthegroundrunning]

Wait a minute. I'm British and I wouldn't want Thailand meddling with my political affairs either!

Reading some of my young Thai niece's schoolbooks it's no wonder they end up which such a twisted xenophobic view of reality. Taught (indoctrinated) from a very young age how special the Thai people are compared to everyone else.

Such a pity that such a beautiful country has such a high % of simpleminded fools populating it.

[Ricardo]

And anyway, this isnt a story about how "many Thai people" said that they dont respect (or didn't like) farang, it's how the PM of a entire country (of 55+ Million people) outrageously said it, in public.

I thought Suthep was Deputy-PM, and Abhisit PM, or did something change ? Agree that it was a silly thing to say.

[dunkin2012]

And anyway, this isnt a story about how "many Thai people" said that they dont respect (or didn't like) farang, it's how the PM of a entire country (of 55+ Million people) outrageously said it, in public.

I thought Suthep was Deputy-PM, and Abhisit PM, or did something change ? Agree that it was a silly thing to say.

FIY

Thai population is 67.764 Million People in 09. Now 2011 it should be close to 68-69 MP

Personally, He ain't an idiot abusin' Farangs by saying. "I don't respect Farangs". I wanna hear the original record......

[Naam]

Thai men do not want us in this country

is it because we Farangs have bigger peckers?

[swillowbee]

... of course they reject election monitors ... they reject observers on the Cambodian border ... they reject any independent 3rd party forensic investigation into the 'coincidental' deaths of 7 people at The Downtowner Hotel in Chiang ... and on, and on, and on. ... Thais reject anything that might reveal what an interminably corrupt and incompetent country Thailand is ... they are desperately fighting a losing battle against an unstoppable and distasteful revelation that will eventually reveal to Thais and the rest of the world the harsh reality of Thailand's truly inferior culture. ... holy, jeez, this is not the 'Land of Smiles' ... what a masterful deception it has all been. ... and the cretin who does not respect westerners? ... well ... consider the source ... just look at him ... an inbred Thai politician ... how much more dispicable and lower an animal is there on this earth?

....an unstoppable and distasteful revelation that will eventually reveal to Thais and the rest of the world the harsh reality of Thailand's truly inferior culture....

I am trying to digest your above statement, wondering at the same time, just how you could surmize that Thailand is a truly inferior culture? Do you mean that any culture that does not pattern itself after our technically very advanced western culture, is a truly inferior culture? So are you also implying that those of us who are here in Thailand on vacation, on biz transaction, on official state capacity, on personal relationships and affairs and others in Thailand for other not mentioned reasons; are submerging ourselves in a truly inferior culture? Frankly speaking, I disagree with you totally and absolutely. Perhaps, your perception in this respect is really delimited by your personal exposure and personal experience in living among multi-global-societies, such as communities in Bangkok, Chienmai, Haadyai et al. It takes some efforts to live successfully and happily within multi-global-societies, if one fails to successfully integrate into such community, the person surely have the option of leaving and moving on.... to one's own utopia.... wherever that utopia is. I am not criticizing you, ok? Just want to remind you that you are entitled to your opinion and that you have the option of moving on and moving out of this truly inferior culture, any time at your own convenience, ok? I'll also be happy to throw you a going away private party too.

... vont ... first ... I made a minor omission in my statement, having a huge impact on my meaning ... published elsewhere in this forum, I have written that I am convinced Thailand suffers from inferior cultural VALUES ... I did not intend to say "inferior culture," as I misstated above ... a mistake I greatly regret, which I can imagine would cause you and others to take exception.

... with that correction, I am prepared to accept your challenge, defending my view that Thailand suffers from "inferior cultural values."

... though, I wish I were a professionally credentialed forensic sociologist, to better describe what I believe are generations of manipulation and corruption of major Thai institutions (political, spiritual, educational, judicial, social, economic, and on, and on, and on) to produce what now serve as the institutional infrastructure of Thai society.

... I also identify cultural values as the bricks and mortar from which institutional infrastructure is made and upon which any society relies ... I consider that cultural values define the collective personal behaviors accepted and valued by the majority of a society, whether a primitive tribe, or the finely polished Utopia to which you refer ... the superior society being one which lifts up its members, allowing them to have better quality lives, however they choose to define that.

... cultural values include such ideals as honesty, sacrifice, courage, forgiveness, generosity, humility, empathy, compassion, self-discipline, tolerance, curiosity, magnanimity, justice, honor, defense of the young, old and less fortunate ... there are others.

... they are personal traits, but I believe their endorsement or rejection by a society as a whole gives rise to these behaviors becoming institutionalized at the cultural level.

... some might counter this list a manifestation of an arrogant west, shortsighted by a Judeo-Christian bias ... to which I would defend that many of these characteristics are held in common by all groups that succeeded through the millennia, their survivals depending upon the individual behaviors of their members ... lacking quality cultural values, evolving tribes and villages ( and now, nations) fall prey to the harsh Darwinian discipline of pestilence, disease, drought, war, the Ice Age, whatever ... the fall of Rome (from within) would be an example.

... with regard to your suggestions about living successfully in multi-global-societies ... my best years now past, I count 10 countries in which I've lived since I was 13 ... I was raised with the very clear understanding that I was a guest in each country and should be judicious in my criticisms ... I've lived by that rule until recent years here in Thailand.

... a guest in other countries, I then had no legitimate standing to criticize ... that changed 10 years ago in Thailand when I accepted the opportunity and responsibility to be a foster father to Thai children, all abandoned by their wretched families ... 5 kids now, the youngest of which was 1-1/2 years old when he came to me ... I consider them my own, and my devotion to them is absolute.

... so, my friend ... I, too, have been upcountry ... a lot ... I am long past merely enjoying the local cuisine, customs, the flora and fauna, and hospitality ... my reasons for going are a bit more serious these days ... I don't have to dig too deep to smell the fetid social decay and view the damage done ... it is ugly and far more pervasive than many imagine ... so, you see, my foster children give me a very personal interest in the success, or failure of Thailand.

... being silent and venerating entitled Thai elites has not worked so very well for generations of Thais ... reflected by its cultural values, Thai society has propagated generations of suppressed (and oppressed), a system fashioned by Thailand's ruling feudal lords, designed to assure their continued dominance.

... you might now understand more clearly my outspoken opinion on Thai cultural values ... I love your open-mindedness and enthusiasm, a privilege of youth, idealism, innocence, inexperience, whatever (sometimes I wish I had that back) ... but, unless a person's hands have been dirtied, they have no ability to understand, much less defend, Thai cultural values.

... now, if you choose to defend Thai cultural values, any banal rectitudes about accepting the behaviors of inferior cultures and "respecting their right" to be whatever they choose is great from where a person can easily get back to the safety of shallow waters ... living up close and personal with the consequences of Thai inferior cultural values, I am unprepared to burden my kids with the price of such privileged opinions ... the cost is just too great ... these kids live in the deep water, where you cannot touch bottom.

... if you want to get real about Thai cultural values, take some time and go to hear the individual stories of the children who find their way to Mercy Centre, Father Joe Maher's Khlong Toey Orphanage (http://www.mercycentre.org/) ... I would suggest that visit to anyone, as a personal challenge, to test their convictions and of what they are made ... Mercy Centre is always open to visitors (no obligation, and I guarantee you a deeply moving and uplifting experience) ... then, multiply what you witness there by thousands, and thousands, and thousands... these are the results of Thai inferior cultural values ... and these kids are all over Thailand ... horrid stories ... not all, but MOST of which have few equals in countries with superior cultural values.

... I am not alone in voicing more loudly my dissension with Thai society's status quo ... Thais are finding their voices ... read Voranai, a very clear-thinking BKK Post Op-ed writer, whose social commentaries are published each Sunday ... he is a loud clear voice in a relatively silent room ... hopefully more Thais will follow his example in standing and facing the root causes of Thailand's problems (values), rather than denying they exist, or merely treating the symptoms and calling it meaningful change ... with them, I will continue voicing my criticisms of Thai cultural values.

... and why not? ... should we not all do what we can to give Thai kids a world in which they are lifted up, allowing them to have better quality lives, however they choose to define that? ... you think the likes of a total abject crook as Suthep has any thoughts of anyone beyond his own fetid, stinking self, his feudal family and his criminal 'tribe'?

Edited April 1, 2011 by swillowbee

[random]

That one Suthep statement (of obviously dubious translation) has set off a furious 20plus pages of bickering is a revelation of the mindset and expectations that bedevil the huge farang mass in Thailand. Why don't the westerners just pack up and leave if they don't find the so-called respect they like to be shown ? On the other hand, if they are stuck here for work or pleasure and find it difficult or impossible to go away, the simpler option is to shut up and put up. That's what Asian immigrants go through in the west. Might do some good to take a leaf from their books. One poster calls Suthep a fool and another thinks he made a smart retort by commenting that was an apt representation of his people ??!! So what were you trying to say ? All Thais are fools, huh ? Thank the web for the anonymity it gives you.

I say take a lesson from the Thais and not worry and complain so much. Learn to relax and be content regardless of issues outside your control. Especially when the issue is something like this were we know there is a translation issue as well as a different culture involved.

the fact that they think issues are out of the control is the big problem, 'why care when I can't fix it anyway'???

This attitude from the voters mean the country will never move forward, and you think this is a good attitude to have??

I am guessing you have not been in Thailand long and still think everything is quaint and charming

[SiangDeeMahk]

And anyway, this isnt a story about how "many Thai people" said that they dont respect (or didn't like) farang, it's how the PM of a entire country (of 55+ Million people) outrageously said it, in public.

I thought Suthep was Deputy-PM, and Abhisit PM, or did something change ? Agree that it was a silly thing to say.

FIY

Thai population is 67.764 Million People in 09. Now 2011 it should be close to 68-69 MP

Personally, He ain't an idiot abusin' Farangs by saying. "I don't respect Farangs". I wanna hear the original record......

For YOUR information: When you see "55+ Million", the plus sign indicates "OR MORE". If there are now exactly 55 million, or 55,000,001 (or any number greater than 55 million) people in Thailand, then "55+" properly addresses such census figures.

And, I'll stop short of saying he's an idiot, and instead say that it's idiotic for ANY high-ranking political or legal representative of a country, especially when that country has longtime ties to numerous western countries (including the (still) most powerful country on the face of the earth), to SAY that they don't respect an entire RACE of people. Imagine a standing POTUS saying that he didn't respect Mexicans, or Canadians, or Greeks, or Jews, or poor Haitians, or rich Arabs? There would be instant (and warranted) worldwide outrage and condemnation. Why should one of the leaders of Thailand not be held to the same standard of decency, and diplomatically considerate speech? I think anyone (even world leaders) is entitled to not respect people(s) based on the (locally unpopular) religious, social, or political choices those people make (although they should probably keep that opinion to themselves), but to be a leader and then to not respect someone based on their ethnicity (something they didn't choose, but instead, were BORN with), is utterly reprehensible in this modern, globalized world.. Then again, culturally elitist xenophobes would have a hard time NOT saying that.

[Buchholz]

Bumped for the benefit of the last poster...

I don't think the translation is accurate.

The original ThaiRath article refers a verbatim quote from Suthep:

ผมไม่นับถือฝรั่งก็แล้วกัน ผมไม่เห็นว่าฝรั่งจะดีกว่าคนไทย อย่าเอาฝรั่งมาข่มคนไทย

This means

I don't respect western foreigners (farangs).

I don't think that western foreigners (farangs) would be better than Thai people (in overseeing the election).

Don't bring western foreigners (farang) here (into Thailand) to control Thai people.

The controversial first sentence here is concluded with ก็แล้วกัน which could be translated as "and that's that" or "if you want to put it like that". The statement is self-contained and even separated from the next sentence with a space which would not be necessary or would even be incorrect if there was any junction with the next sentence. In the second sentence Suthep may have tried to backtrack from the first, but the meaning "I don't esteem westerners as being better than Thai people" cannot be inferred here IMHO.

I think as well as respect, นับถือ can also mean 'look up to' in the sense of relative status, which isn't quite as harsh.

ผมไม่นับถือฝรั่งก็แล้วกัน ผมไม่เห็นว่าฝรั่งจะดีกว่าคนไทย could also be, 'I just don't look up to farang. Farangs aren't better than Thai', which was said in the context of the red shirt's request to bring in Western observers to monitor the elections and Suthep counters by saying that Thais are capable of monitoring them themselves.

Just an alternative take.

[Cross-posted with mikenyork].

K.Kantana,

Rather than an alternative take, I think you are rather spot on with your assessment of the translation. To not look up to someone, does not mean you look down on them either. In diplo speak, he's saying what every other national leader would when speaking about the integrity of their institutions to do a particular job.

[SanSaiExPat]

I agree with the deputy PM's assessment as well. Western NGOs and their members are often as crooked as they come and fronts for intelligence agencies.

I agree too. Having been in the US during the 2000 elections I was shocked to put it mildly when Gore was announced on TV news as the winner only to be overturned later when they found some more Bush votes to count in Florida which just happened to have GW's brother as governor. If the US is supposed to set the standard for free and fair elections why would any country want to let people in who potentially could have bee involved in the US 2000 elections?

Right, the US elections. The machines to count the voters were made by a company of Bush Father.

You are so smart and insightful. Those are the same machines that counted all the votes for the Marxist, Socialist, Commie Obama. http://commieblaster.com/ If US elections are fixed how did a commie like Obama ever become president?

[SanSaiExPat]

I agree with the deputy PM's assessment as well. Western NGOs and their members are often as crooked as they come and fronts for intelligence agencies.

This isn't about western NGOs. Why would you think that western NGOs would be involved? ASEAN has an election monitoring capability. The last ASEAN country to refuse monitors was Myanmar/Burma. Thailan by the way would have provided monitors had Myanmar/Burma agreed. The principal election monitoring groups involve the electoral commissions of other countries. Their conduct and integrity when acting as election monitors has never been questioned.

]

Quite the dishonest apologist that attempts to hide the reality of a Drug War gaff :

"UN is not my father" -- in a reply to a reporter when asked to comment on the Human Rights Office of the UN going to send officers to observe the implementation of the Thai Anti-drug scheme. [March 2003]

Thaksin Shinawatra wikiquotes

Again, more false allegations about Mr. Thaksin, We all know that you have an obsession with the deposed elected PM Thaksin. In this case, you have twisted the event out of context. There was never any intent to send officers. It never happened. This is your invention. It was Prime Minister Thaksin that requested a special envoy from the UN Human Rights Council. His comment was in the context that he had nothing to be afraid of since he was confident his government had behaved appropriately. This has been demonstrated by the successive investigations that showed no criminal wrongdoing on the part of the government at the time. The fact is that the military junta was doing everything possible to destroy Mr. Thaksin and yet try as it could, it found no Thaksin wrongdoing when it held its thorough inquiry. There were mistakes at the local level and that was due to the police and military commanders in their respective positions, not Mr. Thaksin.

I am not going to get into an argument about the attempt by Thaksin to prevent narco terrorists and organized drug criminals from taking over Thailand as the issue has been discussed in other threads. I will however point you to the fact that Mr. Thaksin was acting with the support of the nation and the King when the government tried to defend the nation against the poisoning of Thailand by Burmese drug lords. The issue here is the presence of election monitors. Did Mr. Thaksin ever block election monitors? Did he ever make a statement similar to the current DPM? I don't think so.

Thank you sir for an accurate and cogent response. I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Buchholz]

Thank you sir for an accurate and cogent response. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Perhaps then you'd be willing to address the un-responded-to replies to it in Posts #517 and #518... that were also made 14 days ago like your quoted post.

btw, nice how you solitarily bump this thread on an every 5-day schedule.

[morphic]

This Suthep <expletive deleted> should learn to respect his betters. Look at the state of Thailand! It is is corrupt, dirty, utterly dependent on tourism and other forms of low skill wage slavery. The country is devoid of involvement in any kind of advanced business at all. Unlike much of Asia, Thailand has been left behind by the rest of the Asian growth story. Are people like this <expletive deleted> getting upperty because they think this is Asia's time now? If so, he better think twice because Thailand isn't part of the success story, at best it has benefited by association but basically hasn't advanced at all.

So Suthep, just so you know, i don't respect you. In fact, I doubt many people, Thai, farang or Asian, respect you.

I won't say "I don't respect Thai's" because Im not an ignorant little racist. I will, as I said, just leave it at saying i don't respect YOU.

Edited April 10, 2011 by Maestro
Deleted expletives.

[Markaew]

This Suthep <expletive deleted> should learn to respect his betters. Look at the state of Thailand! It is is corrupt, dirty, utterly dependent on tourism and other forms of low skill wage slavery. The country is devoid of involvement in any kind of advanced business at all. Unlike much of Asia, Thailand has been left behind by the rest of the Asian growth story. Are people like this <expletive deleted> getting upperty because they think this is Asia's time now? If so, he better think twice because Thailand isn't part of the success story, at best it has benefited by association but basically hasn't advanced at all.

So Suthep, just so you know, i don't respect you. In fact, I doubt many people, Thai, farang or Asian, respect you.

I won't say "I don't respect Thai's" because Im not an ignorant little racist. I will, as I said, just leave it at saying i don't respect YOU.

I am amazed at the length of time this thread has continued. Must be a record.

I would like to string together two posts. Yours, and post # 2 by Insight.

Insight: "Suthep's comments might seem a bit harsh and inappropriate (they are!), but if you ask any Thai - who isn't an ardent red shirt - how they feel about foreign election monitors, you'll probably get a similar response!"

I would amend his statement by removing "foreign election monitors" to just "foreigners". Insight's statement sums it up for me.

As per your statement, I have concluded that what you have described is plainly "Thai Culture". They are proud of it, support it, and don't want to change it. Thais are in denial about the state of affairs in this country but all jointly support their "Thai Culture". Ask any of them if they would change Thai Culture, red or yellow shirt, they say no I would not want to change it.

[johnlandy]

Reading some of my young Thai niece's schoolbooks it's no wonder they end up which such a twisted xenophobic view of reality. Taught (indoctrinated) from a very young age how special the Thai people are compared to everyone else.

Such a pity that such a beautiful country has such a high % of simpleminded fools populating it.

And two years on nothing has changed (except that some faces have changed)

Has Thailand ever produced a Nobel Laureate "NO" has Thailand ever given the world an original thought "NO" A thousand "NO's" nothing, zilch, zero....

And on the subject of schooling, a 17 yo female friend in the school examination last week encountered the question "what should a boy do if he is horny?" The desired answer (multi choice) in the mind of whoever wrote the exam papers was "play a game of football"

Edited February 19, 2013 by johnlandy

[webfact]

we close the topic after 2 years

//CLOSED//

/Admin