Organized Service Exchange Program For Expat Individuals

[Jingthing]

I'm posting this to talk about a program now going on in America that helps a lot of people of good will, and a program that because of the very, very limited rights we have as foreigners in Thailand, we almost certainly cannot legally do here. I think it's an interesting example of the reality of being a foreigner living in Thailand for expats to consider, and potential expats to consider even harder.

The program I am talking about is an ORGANIZED people helping people program. A kind of non-money BARTER system. It works something like this. There is a central organization keeping track of TIME CREDITS for all the participants. People communicate (probably over the net) to a large network of mostly strangers about the types of services they would like to offer and also perhaps the types of services they would like to consume. Each service hour is EQUAL. It is a time value and everyone's time is valued the same. There is NO MONEY ever involved. But there is WORK, lots of WORK involved.

For example, suppose you teach French to an expat for 10 hours. You have just earned 10 hours of credit in the barter system. You've banked them.

Supposing next week, you need an English speaking techno nerd to help you out with something on your computer for two hours. You then spend two hours of your banked time.

In these tough economic times for many countries and individuals, anyone can see the value in such a scheme. It helps everyone and it also builds good will and new relationships with new people.

Of course, people can INFORMALLY involve themselves in closed reciprocity circles with their friends. People everywhere do that, and it's unlikely that would ever cause a problem with the work permit laws here.

However, as I'm sure you can see, an organized TIME CREDIT earning, spending, and service sharing scheme would clearly be in violation of the law here about foreigners working (nobody is getting a work permit for a casual French teaching gig). It clearly would be seen as work, and the people organizing it would probably be seen as big criminals.

Doing something for good will and the benefit of our expat communities of people, in Thailand, for us foreigners, FORBIDDEN.

Off my soap box now.

Edited March 24, 2011 by Jingthing

[wintermute]

Interesting system but i'd bet the primary issues in Thailand would be that foreigners would end up screwing each other over in a heart beat rather than the authorities giving a crap about something as complex and mind boggling to them as this.

[whybother]

Bartering isn't looked on very highly by most Western governments, since there is no money changing hands and therefore no tax to collect.

Edited March 24, 2011 by whybother

[garyh]

Bartering isn't looked on very highly by most Western governments, since there is no money changing hands and therefore no tax to collect.

Isn't that the only reason these schemes exist to avoid tax and big brother?

[Jingthing]

Bartering isn't looked on very highly by most Western governments, since there is no money changing hands and therefore no tax to collect.

Isn't that the only reason these schemes exist to avoid tax and big brother?

No! These days it's about people being cash poor and wanting to share with their community in a fair way. The reason this is growing in America is because the economy is historically horrible and people are being creative in sharing without cash. The impulse does not have to be corrupt! This is about PRIVATE PEOPLE, not about small business sharing services. See the difference?

I bring it up in the Thai context to show another example of how tight our leashes are here. Not saying such a program would be well used in Thailand or not. I think it might in large expat areas, but it can't even be tested. Before you say, it's the same for expats in every country. No, I really think that's false.

I am not saying don't move to Thailand because we can't do this thing here. I am obviously pointing to a larger view of our legal rights situation here. It isn't so good. Recently someone posting a survey about how unwelcome immigrants and diverse peoples were in Thailand compared to most of the rest of the world. With Thailand now officially no longer "cheap" I just want to add that thought to people considering moving here. It used to be quite frankly the cheap factor trumped everything else for many people, but now that it isn't cheap, Thailand can be compared with other expat destinations that are also not so cheap more OBJECTIVELY.

Edited March 24, 2011 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Interesting system but i'd bet the primary issues in Thailand would be that foreigners would end up screwing each other over in a heart beat rather than the authorities giving a crap about something as complex and mind boggling to them as this.

I don't agree. It would definitely find attention of the authorities. The program's existence would need to be widely publicized. At least one person would need to be behind the web services/hour credit record keeping system, etc. Clearly that person would be legal target number one.

[garyh]

Cash was invented to get away from the limitations of these systems.

[Jingthing]

Cash was invented to get away from the limitations of these systems.

It doesn't eliminate cash. It opens up different options. People already are involved in informal reciprocity networks among people they know. This just opens it up to a larger network and organizes it with record keeping. The idea of an hour is an hour is also rather an ideological message, which definitely differs from cash systems.

It's academic anyway. I am assuming people agree that I'm correct, we can't do this here, right?

Edited March 24, 2011 by Jingthing

[lannarebirth]

It would be a good idea if you could reach something near true value. let's take a mechanic for instance. Go to the dealer's shop and they charge you something like $98/hr. the true value being maybe a quarter of that. Doctor's, being a closed shop charge whatever they like. I can see it working between a guy that fixes your computer and a guy that paints your porch but most stuff is mispriced so bartering for it wouldn't be any better tha buying it IMO.

[Jingthing]

I think people are missing the core of the idea. It isn't the same as small business barter exchanges. It's more of a good hearted private people oriented community service. People with big capital investments like auto service shops wouldn't be the typical kind of participant in the kind of program I am talking about (based on my impression of a media report). I am not saying this might not be overlap with a traditional business barter vs. personal community type barter, but there really are major differences. It's also not about attracting people who are totally anal that they might be getting ripped off, my decorating suggestions are worth more than your editing advice, BOO HOO.

OK, this is getting silly now, frankly the main reason (which I was totally open about) I posted this was to illustrate another example of the constraints we are under here as foreigners.

If someone thinks we actually COULD do this here legally, that would change things, and we could discuss the concept in more detail. But to be sure, the concept is NOT a traditional commercial business barter program!

Edited March 24, 2011 by Jingthing

[jdinasia]

When local labor is just so cheap, and considering the reason they give retirement visas (to bring foreign currency into the local economy) this just doesn't make sense in Thailand (to me)

[Jingthing]

When local labor is just so cheap, and considering the reason they give retirement visas (to bring foreign currency into the local economy) this just doesn't make sense in Thailand (to me)

Maybe you're rich. A lot of expats are finding Thailand NOT cheap anymore. Yes, we know we are wanted here largely for our money, but this isn't about what's good for Thailand, it's about something that might be good for expats that I believe WOULD be possible in other expat destinations legally, and which I think it is clear we can't do here. Is my point not clear enough?

[jdinasia]

When local labor is just so cheap, and considering the reason they give retirement visas (to bring foreign currency into the local economy) this just doesn't make sense in Thailand (to me)

Maybe you're rich. A lot of expats are finding Thailand NOT cheap anymore. Yes, we know we are wanted here largely for our money, but this isn't about what's good for Thailand, it's about something that might be good for expats that I believe WOULD be possible in other expat destinations legally, and which I think it is clear we can't do here. Is my point not clear enough?

Your point is clear and clearly something I wouldn't participate in. The very idea of letting some skint foreigner into my home for any reason when local labor and services are so cheap doesn't make any sense (to me.) What is legal in other places is absolutely inconsequential to me as well. I choose to live in Thailand and not Borneo, so what you can do in Thailand is pretty much all that matters.

Like I said, your point is clear. I think mine are as well.

[Jingthing]

OK, JD, (more) than enough said ...

I find the tone of your post snobbish. Was that your intention to project yourself that way? What do you get out of posting that way; does it make you feel even more superior?

Never mind. IF such a program could be done in Thailand, people with your attitude would definitely NOT be a match.

Edited March 24, 2011 by Jingthing

[jdinasia]

Nope -- my post is intended as practical, not snobbish

[Jingthing]

Nope -- my post is intended as practical, not snobbish

You're a card.

OK, I surrender. This thread is a DUD. Can't win 'em all ...

Edited March 24, 2011 by Jingthing

[mario299]

Nope -- my post is intended as practical, not snobbish

You're a card.

OK, I surrender. This thread is a DUD. Can't win 'em all ...

Jingthing, not so sure your thread is a dud, and in fact I think the Thai village people already do the barter system pretty much as a regular thing becuae they don't have a lot of extra cash laying around. Many times I have seen people in our local area do trades for trades...i.e. labor for rice, loan money for rice, etc., but it just wouldn't (doesn't) work for us farang because we do have money. If I understand your point correctly, you are saying that this system sounds (and could be) practical, but not for farang in Thailand. Yes?

mario299

[Thailaw]

Bartering isn't looked on very highly by most Western governments, since there is no money changing hands and therefore no tax to collect.

Isn't that the only reason these schemes exist to avoid tax and big brother?

No! These days it's about people being cash poor and wanting to share with their community in a fair way. The reason this is growing in America is because the economy is historically horrible and people are being creative in sharing without cash. The impulse does not have to be corrupt! This is about PRIVATE PEOPLE, not about small business sharing services. See the difference?

I bring it up in the Thai context to show another example of how tight our leashes are here. Not saying such a program would be well used in Thailand or not. I think it might in large expat areas, but it can't even be tested. Before you say, it's the same for expats in every country. No, I really think that's false.

I am not saying don't move to Thailand because we can't do this thing here. I am obviously pointing to a larger view of our legal rights situation here. It isn't so good. Recently someone posting a survey about how unwelcome immigrants and diverse peoples were in Thailand compared to most of the rest of the world. With Thailand now officially no longer "cheap" I just want to add that thought to people considering moving here. It used to be quite frankly the cheap factor trumped everything else for many people, but now that it isn't cheap, Thailand can be compared with other expat destinations that are also not so cheap more OBJECTIVELY.

From the US Internal Revenue Service website (www.irs.gov):

"Barter Exchanges

Bartering is the trading of one product or service for another. Usually there is no exchange of cash. Barter may take place on an informal one-on-one basis between individuals and businesses, or it can take place on a third party basis through a barter exchange company. A barter exchange is any person or organization with members or clients that contract with each other (or with the barter exchange) to jointly trade or barter property or services. The term does not include arrangements that provide solely for the informal exchange of similar services on a noncommercial basis.

Unlike one-on-one bartering, members of exchanges are not obligated to barter or purchase directly from a seller. Instead, when a barter exchange member sells a product or a service to another member, their barter account is credited for the fair market value of the sale. When a barter exchange member buys, the account is debited for the fair market value of the purchase.

Internet-based Barter

The Internet provides a new medium for the barter exchange industry. Pure Internet-based barter companies differ from traditional, organized trade exchanges in that they do not have a physical office. In modern Internet barter exchanges, there is an agreement or process in place to value goods and services exchanged, which is facilitated by the barter exchange for a fee. A barter exchange functions primarily as the organizer of a marketplace where members buy and sell products and services among themselves.

Trade Dollars

Barter exchanges have their own unit of exchange, usually known as barter or trade dollars. Trade dollars or barter dollars are valued in U.S. currency for the purposes of information returns. Trade dollars allow barter to take place between parties when one party may not have a simultaneous need or desire for the goods or services of the other members. Barter exchanges act as the bookkeeper for keeping track of trade dollars that participants accumulate. Earning trade or barter dollars through a barter exchange is considered taxable income, just as if your product or service was sold for cash.

Requirement for Barter Exchanges to File Information Returns

Barter exchanges are required to issue Form 1099-B Proceeds from Broker and Barter Exchange Transactions, annually to their clients or members and to the Internal Revenue Service. Learn more about information return filing requirements for barter exchanges."

Barter transactions (except causual exchanges of similar services on a non-commercial basis (e.g., I agree to cut your grass while your away on vacation in exchange for your cutting my grass while I am away for business)) constitute "work" and generate "income". In the US, the income from a barter exchange is taxed, and in Thailand that work is prohibited for foreigners resident in Thailand unless they hold a work permit. The fact that cash is not involved is not relevant, not in the US and not in Thailand. Nothing new.... Next.

Edited March 24, 2011 by Thailaw

[Jingthing]

The media I saw on these community people helping people hour for hour setups didn't mention compliance or non-compliance with IRS codes but my strong impression was non compliance so you do bring up an excellent wrinkle. The people talking were mainly about the joy of giving to the community and not so much about what they're getting. They don't have barter dollars per se, all participating is valued equally based on time. I realize organized commercial barter exchanges are nothing new; this concept was presented as something somewhat new, but I can see that is debatable. Are they testing IRS law, haven't a clue. Another thing to consider, for unemployed people (and there is massive unemployment in the US), taxation issues often become not so relevant, 30 percent of 0 is 0. In any case, I agree we can't do this as foreigners in Thailand, so next indeed.

Edited March 24, 2011 by Jingthing

[surayu]

JT i have been doing some researches myself sometimes ago, if there is a way to create something which would help the aliens of Thailand, not something to make a profit, something with the only purpose to really create a better environment, which in the ends will benefit not just the expats community it would be for but also our host country, unfortunately these kind of "initiative" will be required to pay large sums of money to the goverment as if they were profitable businesses....and if you don't comply then you are officially breaking the law with all the attached problems, so, i gave up.

Also there is no way i would join the biggest fishes on this sector, as often, donations made in good faith will only help the ones high up the scale to purchase a bigger car instead to reach the real targets of their cause...or worse, as the donations for the thai Tsunami demonstrates

[Jingthing]

JT i have been doing some researches myself sometimes ago, if there is a way to create something which would help the aliens of Thailand, not something to make a profit, something with the only purpose to really create a better environment, which in the ends will benefit not just the expats community it would be for but also our host country, unfortunately these kind of "initiative" will be required to pay large sums of money to the goverment as if they were profitable businesses....and if you don't comply then you are officially breaking the law with all the attached problems, so, i gave up.

Also there is no way i would join the biggest fishes on this sector, as often, donations made in good faith will only help the ones high up the scale to purchase a bigger car instead to reach the real targets of their cause...or worse, as the donations for the thai Tsunami demonstrates

Thanks for amplifying my core point. We are restricted here in some strange ways making it difficult to be all we can be as expats in Thailand. Of course, the same kinds of issues with volunteer work by foreigners for the Thai community. Yes long term people have realized this, but many people read this board who haven't made the leap here yet, and I think it's a good thing to expose both the pros and cons of moving to Thailand, as there are alternatives. Thailand was never for everybody, but I strongly feel it's the best choice for fewer people than before.

Depending on where you came from, Thailand is going to feel like a FREER country in some respects, but in other respects, it's eventually likely to feel much less free.

Edited March 24, 2011 by Jingthing

[DP25]

Sounds like a really good idea in the US where services are crazy expensive. Computer work for example is a very expensive service in the US, a store like Best Buy would charge you $50 just to install a stick of RAM that takes them 5 minutes of work, or $130 to update your PS3 console. Here the store would do it for free if you bought from them

Not really sure what services I'd be interesting in trading here if it were possible to set something like this up

[Thailaw]

JT i have been doing some researches myself sometimes ago, if there is a way to create something which would help the aliens of Thailand, not something to make a profit, something with the only purpose to really create a better environment, which in the ends will benefit not just the expats community it would be for but also our host country, unfortunately these kind of "initiative" will be required to pay large sums of money to the goverment as if they were profitable businesses....and if you don't comply then you are officially breaking the law with all the attached problems, so, i gave up.

Also there is no way i would join the biggest fishes on this sector, as often, donations made in good faith will only help the ones high up the scale to purchase a bigger car instead to reach the real targets of their cause...or worse, as the donations for the thai Tsunami demonstrates

Thanks for amplifying my core point. We are restricted here in some strange ways making it difficult to be all we can be as expats in Thailand. Of course, the same kinds of issues with volunteer work by foreigners for the Thai community. Yes long term people have realized this, but many people read this board who haven't made the leap here yet, and I think it's a good thing to expose both the pros and cons of moving to Thailand, as there are alternatives. Thailand was never for everybody, but I strongly feel it's the best choice for fewer people than before.

Depending on where you came from, Thailand is going to feel like a FREER country in some respects, but in other respects, it's eventually likely to feel much less free.

I agree that Thailand isn't going to attract as many foreign residents as it did before. That is primarily due to the increased cost of living that results from much reduced exchange rates for Dollars, Pounds and Euros. But few expats would engage in barter activities even if the opportunity was available, so their not being allowed will not dissuade many, if any. Thai law looks at employment as a "zero sum game" -- if a foreigner gains, a Thai is assumed to lose, except where the gains/benefits to Thais can be clearly demonstrated. There are many opportunities available to feel (and be) "useful", but they cannot come with personal gain, except for the satisfaction of helping others (technically, under the rules of the Ministry of Labor, charity work requires a work permit, but it is extremely rare that this requirment is enforced or that violators would be pursued/punished). Help the community -- volunteer your time to a school or children's home, organize a fund raising activity, help repair a damaged home or build a new one for a needy Thai (Jimmy Carter will love you), but don't expect/require anything of value in return (other than the satisfaction of helping others in need). Or do like most of the farang here, learn to play golf or play with the young girls (or boys) in the bars -- few seem to tire of that.

Edited March 25, 2011 by Thailaw

[pjclark1]

With Thailand now officially no longer "cheap" I just want to add that thought to people considering moving here. It used to be quite frankly the cheap factor trumped everything else for many people, but now that it isn't cheap, Thailand can be compared with other expat destinations that are also not so cheap more OBJECTIVELY.

I'm pretty sure it was the 'cheap shag' factor that trumped everything else, and it's still cheap!

[Thailaw]

I'm pretty sure it was the 'cheap shag' factor that trumped everything else, and it's still cheap!

it's pretty obvious from your post which brain you think with -- the one closest to your wallet (assuming you keep it in your pants).

[robblok]

JT i have been doing some researches myself sometimes ago, if there is a way to create something which would help the aliens of Thailand, not something to make a profit, something with the only purpose to really create a better environment, which in the ends will benefit not just the expats community it would be for but also our host country, unfortunately these kind of "initiative" will be required to pay large sums of money to the goverment as if they were profitable businesses....and if you don't comply then you are officially breaking the law with all the attached problems, so, i gave up.

Also there is no way i would join the biggest fishes on this sector, as often, donations made in good faith will only help the ones high up the scale to purchase a bigger car instead to reach the real targets of their cause...or worse, as the donations for the thai Tsunami demonstrates

Thanks for amplifying my core point. We are restricted here in some strange ways making it difficult to be all we can be as expats in Thailand. Of course, the same kinds of issues with volunteer work by foreigners for the Thai community. Yes long term people have realized this, but many people read this board who haven't made the leap here yet, and I think it's a good thing to expose both the pros and cons of moving to Thailand, as there are alternatives. Thailand was never for everybody, but I strongly feel it's the best choice for fewer people than before.

Depending on where you came from, Thailand is going to feel like a FREER country in some respects, but in other respects, it's eventually likely to feel much less free.

I agree that Thailand isn't going to attract as many foreign residents as it did before. That is primarily due to the increased cost of living that results from much reduced exchange rates for Dollars, Pounds and Euros. But few expats would engage in barter activities even if the opportunity was available, so their not being allowed will not dissuade many, if any. Thai law looks at employment as a "zero sum game" -- if a foreigner gains, a Thai is assumed to lose, except where the gains/benefits to Thais can be clearly demonstrated. There are many opportunities available to feel (and be) "useful", but they cannot come with personal gain, except for the satisfaction of helping others (technically, under the rules of the Ministry of Labor, charity work requires a work permit, but it is extremely rare that this requirment is enforced or that violators would be pursued/punished). Help the community -- volunteer your time to a school or children's home, organize a fund raising activity, help repair a damaged home or build a new one for a needy Thai (Jimmy Carter will love you), but don't expect/require anything of value in return (other than the satisfaction of helping others in need). Or do like most of the farang here, learn to play golf or play with the young girls (or boys) in the bars -- few seem to tire of that.

Thai's just fear the competition of better schooled and more creative foreigners. Its a shame for us but a fact. They will never understand that if a Thai looses out that money will still be spend in Thailand and it might even contribute more to the economy.

[samran]

two questions, why not run a poll? 5555

A quote by Adam Smith comes to mine as to why this won't work:

It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages

If you do not create the right incentives - even in the scheme you propose - it will fall in a heap quite quickly.

One of my hours to you may be worth four of your hours to me in return etc etc etc. Who is going to set that rate of exchange?

Suggest you read a book - Freakanomics - i think it was called, which outlined why schemes such as these can fall to bits really quickly, even with the best intentions. See the chapter on the babysitting service where people earned credits - but then the market for services quickly dried up amongst the main participants.

If you want to do nice things for people, go do stuff for a charity.

If you want to feel brotherly love, get a bunch of people together and sing Kum-ba-ya together.

Systems like your proposal generally don't work because peoples inherent self interest, and the lack of transparency about the value of the credits (ie a market!!) makes the whole scheme useless.

Edited March 25, 2011 by samran

[robblok]

two questions, why not run a poll? 5555

A quote by Adam Smith comes to mine as to why this won't work:

It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages

If you do not create the right incentives - even in the scheme you propose - it will fall in a heap quite quickly.

One of my hours to you may be worth four of your hours to me in return etc etc etc. Who is going to set that rate of exchange?

Suggest you read a book - Freakanomics - i think it was called, which outlined why schemes such as these can fall to bits really quickly, even with the best intentions. See the chapter on the babysitting service where people earned credits - but then the market for services quickly dried up amongst the main participants.

If you want to do nice things for people, go do stuff for a charity.

If you want to feel brotherly love, get a bunch of people together and sing Kum-ba-ya together.

Systems like your proposal generally don't work because peoples inherent self interest, and the lack of transparency about the value of the credits (ie a market!!) makes the whole scheme useless.

I will have to agree with Samran. Though here if it was allowed it might work better then somewhere else. Because this would be a way for a foreigner to work without a work permit and gain benefits (in other services). I do think it will never be allowed though.

[garyh]

Foreigner are allowed to stay in Thailand to spend money not to start taking the jobs of local people, There are plenty here that fix computers, give massages, read tarot cards and what ever other services that offered by these schemes.

[garyh]

Foreigner are allowed to stay in Thailand to spend money not to start taking the jobs of local people, There are plenty here that fix computers, give massages, read tarot cards and what ever other services that offered by these schemes.