Cbr250 Vs Ninja250 Vs Dtx250 @ Brc

[BigBikeBKK]

FYI, this is the "Bangkok Racing Circuit" as it's configured these days:

It could be a fun and profitable little track if they'd only invest a bit in fixing it up and maintaining it...

Oh yeah, TiT! :jap:

[BigBikeBKK]

This is how the BRC track used to be laid out before they "fixed" it...

Good fun, but a bit dangerous

Let the Good Times ROLL!

Tony

[dave_boo]

Nice report thanks.

Interesting that the ninja with aftermarket yoshimura was only 1.4 secs faster than the stock CBR, and that was with you not riding the CBR hard.

Sounds like changing the CBR suspension for the track would allow you to ride it like you did the ninja, wonder what the time difference would be then... and in which order.

Hi,

Both suspensions were factory set, and not altered.

:jap:

Er, yes.

And with all the aftermarket parts (and a genuine yoshi is quite a nice mod) and being ridden to the limit the ninjette couldn't get around 1.5 secs faster than a stock CBR that was being driven slow.

Could just be me, but that is a little embarrassing.

Have you ever been to the little BRC track? It was built primarily as a Go-Kart track...

It was small to begin with- now with nearly a third of it is CLOSED in it's present configuration it's TINY and the "straight" is maybe 200-300 yards long. As it stands now you will never get either bike out of second gear. In fact, on such a short twisty track the CBR should power out of corners faster than the Ninette thanks to its higher torque. In effect, that track more or less cancels out the Ninjette's higher Hp because there's really no where on the track you can wind up the little Kwacker and let her fly.

Lap times at BRC are dependent less on POWER, and more on HANDLING. It's good that both bikes were wearing the same rubber as a control. With both bikes wearing the notoriously hard and slippery IRC's it comes down to which bike can corner faster on those tires. On such a track the superior suspension and handling of the Ninjette gave it the edge over the CBR 250.

In the One-Make Honda CBR250 Races that have taken place thus far in Thailand the racers have had a hard time keeping the little thumper shiny side up on account of the CBR's weak suspension- time after time the front end washes out when pushed-

Pics from this weekend's Honda One-Make race... Embarrassing indeed

The little Ninjette on the other hand has excellent handling right out of the box and with some sticky tires it's amazing how well it corners-

Ride On!

Tony

Nice to see that you haven't given up your old tricks. What happened to your "It's not the bike, it's the rider"? Or is that only when it's in defense of the über alles Ninja, since I can't remember your discontinuation of this line of thinking when commenting on my riding of the Ninja (even though in my case it's true)? And if the CBR has a suspension that is so much worst, why was the contest so close when it was very apparent that the Ninja was ridden as far as it could and the CBR was not? A 2% difference in lap time for the supposedly superior Ninja (which I reiterate was ridden to the limits of the tyres) is a sad excuse for the believed increase in trackability. It's also at odds to what professional racers have discovered.

Furthermore let's count all the TV riders who've crashed their Ninjas. Me, the OP, JunSiang, your observation of a full 66% of Thai riders crashing out in Bira Fun Day (along with photographic evidence at another event), etc, etc. Also interesting that in both pictures of the CBR it sure appears that the stock tyres are being used; while that won't necessarily explain a high side, it sure would go a long way towards explaining a low side.

I haven't been to Bira, but how much of a straight is offered there? I'll refer back to the fact that Bard and the Aussie got both bikes up to 140 on the straight; and that was a stock CBR vs Bard's upgraded Ninja! Would you be willing to state on that track, which would be less dependent on cornering the Ninja would be faster? Because as it stands now, even with the Ninja's 'superior' handling (and, to flog a horse, that if not dead is at this point in mortal danger of expiring) combined with the fact that the CBR was not ridden (excuse the euphemism) scrotum out, on one if not the tightest track in LOS the Ninja could present a better showing that +2% of the CBR's lap times does not bode well in my book for the rest of the races they could be paired up in (unless you can find a NASCAR style oval....).

[BigBikeBKK]

Er, yes.

And with all the aftermarket parts (and a genuine yoshi is quite a nice mod) and being ridden to the limit the ninjette couldn't get around 1.5 secs faster than a stock CBR that was being driven slow.

Could just be me, but that is a little embarrassing.

Have you ever been to the little BRC track? It was built primarily as a Go-Kart track...

It was small to begin with- now with nearly a third of it is CLOSED in it's present configuration it's TINY and the "straight" is maybe 200-300 yards long. As it stands now you will never get either bike out of second gear. In fact, on such a short twisty track the CBR should power out of corners faster than the Ninette thanks to its higher torque. In effect, that track more or less cancels out the Ninjette's higher Hp because there's really no where on the track you can wind up the little Kwacker and let her fly.

Lap times at BRC are dependent less on POWER, and more on HANDLING. It's good that both bikes were wearing the same rubber as a control. With both bikes wearing the notoriously hard and slippery IRC's it comes down to which bike can corner faster on those tires. On such a track the superior suspension and handling of the Ninjette gave it the edge over the CBR 250.

In the One-Make Honda CBR250 Races that have taken place thus far in Thailand the racers have had a hard time keeping the little thumper shiny side up on account of the CBR's weak suspension- time after time the front end washes out when pushed-

Pics from this weekend's Honda One-Make race... Embarrassing indeed

The little Ninjette on the other hand has excellent handling right out of the box and with some sticky tires it's amazing how well it corners-

Ride On!

Tony

Nice to see that you haven't given up your old tricks. What happened to your "It's not the bike, it's the rider"? Or is that only when it's in defense of the über alles Ninja, since I can't remember your discontinuation of this line of thinking when commenting on my riding of the Ninja (even though in my case it's true)? And if the CBR has a suspension that is so much worst, why was the contest so close when it was very apparent that the Ninja was ridden as far as it could and the CBR was not? A 2% difference in lap time for the supposedly superior Ninja (which I reiterate was ridden to the limits of the tyres) is a sad excuse for the believed increase in trackability. It's also at odds to what professional racers have discovered.

Furthermore let's count all the TV riders who've crashed their Ninjas. Me, the OP, JunSiang, your observation of a full 66% of Thai riders crashing out in Bira Fun Day (along with photographic evidence at another event), etc, etc. Also interesting that in both pictures of the CBR it sure appears that the stock tyres are being used; while that won't necessarily explain a high side, it sure would go a long way towards explaining a low side.

I haven't been to Bira, but how much of a straight is offered there? I'll refer back to the fact that Bard and the Aussie got both bikes up to 140 on the straight; and that was a stock CBR vs Bard's upgraded Ninja! Would you be willing to state on that track, which would be less dependent on cornering the Ninja would be faster? Because as it stands now, even with the Ninja's 'superior' handling (and, to flog a horse, that if not dead is at this point in mortal danger of expiring) combined with the fact that the CBR was not ridden (excuse the euphemism) scrotum out, on one if not the tightest track in LOS the Ninja could present a better showing that +2% of the CBR's lap times does not bode well in my book for the rest of the races they could be paired up in (unless you can find a NASCAR style oval....).

Dave, Dave... Been out in the desert serving up the slop a bit too long methinks...

Perhaps I misread the review, but weren't both bikes ridden by the same rider? If that's the case doesn't it make your "It's not the bike, it's the rider" nonsense moot?

Why is it "apparent that the Ninja was ridden as far as it could and the CBR was not?" Because the Ninja crashed? Like the OP said, the superior handling of the Ninja led him to push it farther than what the IRC's could handle, hence the lowside. I got the impression that the crash happened well after the "testing" laps were complete, but again, perhaps I misread the review?

"66% of Thai riders crashing at "Bira Fun Day""?! Where in the world did you get that?! Oh, you must mean the pair of Ninja 250R's that went off the track because they were pushing hard trying to keep up with Ninja 650Rs and ER6n's? Hey- hats off to them for having the courage to take their ~33Hp 250's out against ~66Hp EX650's! Yet the CBR 250's have been conspicuously absent from all recent open-make track days such as the last Pirelli Track Day at BIRA and the recent 250cc open race at Bonanza Circuit...

Let there be no doubt that in the hands of a competent rider, the Ninja 250R can be a wicked fast little bike that can carry amazing speed into corners and flick through chicanes with ease-

This Ninja 250R surprised the hell out of me!

Bard is a BIG GUY, not a fatty like you, just BIG and the Aussie who reviewed the CBR was apparently a lard butt perhaps similar in build to you Dave, but since we don't know how much either rider actually weighs it's impossible for us to know how their weight affected the performance of their bikes, right? And with you being "mister numbers" I shouldn't have to tell you that power to weight is critically important when comparing the performance of relatively low powered bikes like the Ninjette and CBR 250. The less power the bigger the impact of weight, right? That's why Bard ended up with an R1- when you've got 180+Hp on tap it doesn't matter so much what you weigh- the bike is gonna haul ass whether you're big or small, get it?

Funny thing is Dave, I'm a HUGE Honda fan. I've owned a bunch of Hondas over the years, starting way back with a Honda Hurricane (predecessor to the CBR), then a CBR 600F2 and another F2 after the first one crashed and burned. Awesome awesome bikes. For years I admired the VFR 750 and then the VFR 800; both winners of Bike of the Year year after year after year.

I'm not saying there's anything WRONG with the new Honda CBR 250, but your stubborn insistence that this bland new general purpose CBR 250 is somehow "better" than the Ninja 250R really is rather laughable. The reviews have been pretty consistent and I tend to agree with them- they are both good bikes. The CBR is said to be better for city riding and beginners while the Ninjette is said to be better for highway, twisties and track. Why does that offend you so? Is the Honda better because it's cheaper? Sure, here in Thailand the MSRP of the Honda is significantly lower than that of the Kwacker (but as we've seen, finding the Honda at the AP Honda MSRP can be quite a challenge and Thai Honda dealer prices seem to be creeping inexorably up and up towards the fixed price of the Ninjette). In other markets where the bikes are priced identically I just can't think of any reason to choose the Honda over the Kwacker. And here in Thailand where the Kwacker is a bit more expensive, if I were in the market for a 250 I'd happily pay a bit more to get the better bike.

But hey, that's just me. To each their own. Live to Ride, Ride to Live!

Happy Trails!

Tony

Edited March 28, 2011 by BigBikeBKK

[dave_boo]

Nice to see that you haven't given up your old tricks. What happened to your "It's not the bike, it's the rider"? Or is that only when it's in defense of the über alles Ninja, since I can't remember your discontinuation of this line of thinking when commenting on my riding of the Ninja (even though in my case it's true)? And if the CBR has a suspension that is so much worst, why was the contest so close when it was very apparent that the Ninja was ridden as far as it could and the CBR was not? A 2% difference in lap time for the supposedly superior Ninja (which I reiterate was ridden to the limits of the tyres) is a sad excuse for the believed increase in trackability. It's also at odds to what professional racers have discovered.

Furthermore let's count all the TV riders who've crashed their Ninjas. Me, the OP, JunSiang, your observation of a full 66% of Thai riders crashing out in Bira Fun Day (along with photographic evidence at another event), etc, etc. Also interesting that in both pictures of the CBR it sure appears that the stock tyres are being used; while that won't necessarily explain a high side, it sure would go a long way towards explaining a low side.

I haven't been to Bira, but how much of a straight is offered there? I'll refer back to the fact that Bard and the Aussie got both bikes up to 140 on the straight; and that was a stock CBR vs Bard's upgraded Ninja! Would you be willing to state on that track, which would be less dependent on cornering the Ninja would be faster? Because as it stands now, even with the Ninja's 'superior' handling (and, to flog a horse, that if not dead is at this point in mortal danger of expiring) combined with the fact that the CBR was not ridden (excuse the euphemism) scrotum out, on one if not the tightest track in LOS the Ninja could present a better showing that +2% of the CBR's lap times does not bode well in my book for the rest of the races they could be paired up in (unless you can find a NASCAR style oval....).

Dave, Dave... Been out in the desert serving up the slop a bit too long methinks...

Perhaps I misread the review, but weren't both bikes ridden by the same rider? If that's the case doesn't it make your "It's not the bike, it's the rider" nonsense moot?

Why is it "apparent that the Ninja was ridden as far as it could and the CBR was not?" Because the Ninja crashed? Like the OP said, the superior handling of the Ninja led him to push it farther than what the IRC's could handle, hence the lowside. I got the impression that the crash happened well after the "testing" laps were complete, but again, perhaps I misread the review?

"66% of Thai riders crashing at "Bira Fun Day""?! Where in the world did you get that?! Oh, you must mean the pair of Ninja 250R's that went off the track because they were pushing hard trying to keep up with Ninja 650Rs and ER6n's? Hey- hats off to them for having the courage to take their ~33Hp 250's out against ~66Hp EX650's! Yet the CBR 250's have been conspicuously absent from all recent open-make track days such as the last Pirelli Track Day at BIRA and the recent 250cc open race at Bonanza Circuit...

Let there be no doubt that in the hands of a competent rider, the Ninja 250R can be a wicked fast little bike that can carry amazing speed into corners and flick through chicanes with ease-

This Ninja 250R surprised the hell out of me!

Bard is a BIG GUY, not a fatty like you, just BIG and the Aussie who reviewed the CBR was apparently a lard butt perhaps similar in build to you Dave, but since we don't know how much either rider actually weighs it's impossible for us to know how their weight affected the performance of their bikes, right? And with you being "mister numbers" I shouldn't have to tell you that power to weight is critically important when comparing the performance of relatively low powered bikes like the Ninjette and CBR 250. The less power the bigger the impact of weight, right? That's why Bard ended up with an R1- when you've got 180+Hp on tap it doesn't matter so much what you weigh- the bike is gonna haul ass whether you're big or small, get it?

Funny thing is Dave, I'm a HUGE Honda fan. I've owned a bunch of Hondas over the years, starting way back with a Honda Hurricane (predecessor to the CBR), then a CBR 600F2 and another F2 after the first one crashed and burned. Awesome awesome bikes. For years I admired the VFR 750 and then the VFR 800; both winners of Bike of the Year year after year after year.

I'm not saying there's anything WRONG with the new Honda CBR 250, but your stubborn insistence that this bland new general purpose CBR 250 is somehow "better" than the Ninja 250R really is rather laughable. The reviews have been pretty consistent and I tend to agree with them- they are both good bikes. The CBR is said to be better for city riding and beginners while the Ninjette is said to be better for highway, twisties and track. Why does that offend you so? Is the Honda better because it's cheaper? Sure, here in Thailand the MSRP of the Honda is significantly lower than that of the Kwacker (but as we've seen, finding the Honda at the AP Honda MSRP can be quite a challenge and Thai Honda dealer prices seem to be creeping inexorably up and up towards the fixed price of the Ninjette). In other markets where the bikes are priced identically I just can't think of any reason to choose the Honda over the Kwacker. And here in Thailand where the Kwacker is a bit more expensive, if I were in the market for a 250 I'd happily pay a bit more to get the better bike.

But hey, that's just me. To each their own. Live to Ride, Ride to Live!

Happy Trails!

Tony

Ignoring your infantile personal attacks, let's look at the facts. the OP's statements namely: "the bike felt so stiff", "I was scared to ride the CBR hard", "me sucking", "I'm no expert reviewer". I remember quite clearly you pointing out that it was not only the Ninja's fault I crashed, but rather my infamiliarity with that bike and my inexperience in general. I.E., YOU stated that the Ninja could be ridden much harder much more safely than I did or am currently doing. You've also pointed out that I was very comfortable about my CBR 150R (which is also true) and thus implying that the Ninja was too much for me or some sort of drivel like that. Care to explain how this does not apply for someone else? Would the rider who's not comfortable on the CBR for whatever reason not ride it to its full capability? What if there would have been a raced prepped NSR250 for the comparison....would the OP have been comfortable enough with it to outpace both street bikes? My guess is the answer would be a resounding no since he would not be comfortable on it; I'd put good money that it would be slower than both tested bikes for him.

Yes, it's apparent that the Ninja was ridden to the ragged edge of the tyre's adhesion...simply because the OP admits that "I was scared to ride the CBR hard". While it's probably not nice to say, a crash on the CBR also would alleviate any questions as to just how softly he had been riding it. I understood him to state that he had 7 laps on each bike; two warm-ups each and then 5 'racing' laps...no mention at all that he had any extra laps on the Ninja other than from this other post where he stated that he "Maybe 14 laps on the Ninja, 7 laps this day and 7 laps a few months back". So unless it took him a few days to run each of the laps on the Ninja except for the timed one, he lowsided during his testing.

I don't know why the CBR hasn't been raced by private owners yet; but wasn't Bonanza's track day before the 4^th and the Kawasaki MiniGP on the 19^th (or are you talking about the BMC&Pirelli Trackday on 6 Feb)? It took a bit of digging, but AFAIK the first CBRs were available 16 December 10. And with a claim of only 30 units a day being manufacturered it's not hard to understand why there's so few out there for racing purposes (only been out between 53 and 79 days depending on which race you're talking about).

Nobody's denying the Ninja's general handling; but since the OP has admitted that he was not an expert, let's defer to the experts who have stated that the CBR steers better.

And here's the article from the CBR's ride around Bira. Notice that it doesn't say that he's fat; merely that the "slender proportions" of the CBR was a nice "case of yin and yang compared to my good self". While I'm not an English major, I believe that the word 'slender' connotates size rather than mass.

As a number guy I can definitely state that wind resistance has more effect on speed than mass. But I'm glad you brought the whole discussion of kg/hp. According to Wikipedia the Ninja weighs 170 kg (26.4 HP) against the CBR's 161 kg (23.7 HP), meaning that the Ninja's has 6.4 kg/HP and the Honda has 6.79 kg/HP both without rider. Not that much different, and I'll admit that acceleration is affected, however as an example, a 70 kg rider on the CBR has the same weight/power that an 87 kg rider would have on the Ninja. For someone of my mass on a Ninja, anyone of 81 kg or less has the HP advantage on the CBR. And that's not getting into torque and gearing which are the real questions...

I'm going to flip the sript and ask why it offends you to admit that a purchaser of a 250cc bike can get as good of a bike for 37-12 000 THB less? How is paying such a premium for a Ninja over a bike that is better in 98-100% of riding a typical buyer will undertake (that includes touring since all review have mentioned the CBR's better seat and less buzz) make it a better bike? Please educate us 'dummies' how, contrary to all objective evidence, the Ninja is a 'better' bike. Other than a Kawasaki sponsored comparo, there has been no other to suggest it. A comparo by a board member who admitted to not riding the CBR as hard as it could have been only netted a 2% better Ninja...and that's with the Ninja's mods! It's easy to cherry pick select quotes and distort them to fit your need, as well as to compare to other markets, but looking up to the top of the browser page I see that I'm still on Thai Visa...meaning what does other market's pricing have to do with Thailand?

**edit**

Correcting some the grammar thingies and speelling mistakes.

Edited March 28, 2011 by dave_boo

[nikotin888]

you guys have way too much time!

[appropriate]

Funny how the baby ninja has gone from the better bike, to the better bike on the track, to the better bike on some tracks.

The poor lads are desperate.

[BigBikeBKK]

Funny how the baby ninja has gone from the better bike, to the better bike on the track, to the better bike on some tracks.

The poor lads are desperate.

You don't read so good...

The reviews have been pretty consistent and I tend to agree with them- they are both good bikes. The CBR is said to be better for city riding and beginners while the Ninjette is said to be better for highway, twisties and track.

[ttakata]

Wow, you guys are getting fierce, I love the passion.

My Ninja crash ended the testing, it was during a hot lap, halfway through the last one.

Hey both Ninjas and CBRs crash, all riders make mistakes, even Valentino Rossi.

I'm just saying in a competition, the CBR has a much greater ability to make you crash.

Numbers are nice, I look at all the specs of everything I buy, but actual reviews and testing are better.

Numbers wise my old Springfield 1911 .45 caliber pistol was a better gun than my 9mm HK or Glock for stopping power, but what do more cops and military use?

The Euro guns since they rarely fail or jam, luckily I never had to test this theory.

Like I said I'm no expert rider or journalist but I have been riding off and on for 10 years.

I got my motorcycle license in 2000 from Richard Pettiford who owns a superbike school in Colorado.

I have raced many pocketbikes for 3 years (no suspension at all) including a 10HP DM Telai that went 68Kmh with stock gearing and kept up with a full size KTM motard on the Rialto (California) go kart track.

I have also had a 1 on 1 track day with Doug Polen (4x WSB champion) on the Willow Springs big track (fastest track in the Western US).

It was just an open practice day but I was going 150Kmh in the big turns and 210Kmh down the straight on my old 2006 MV Agusta Brutale 750.

Considering a Brutale is a comfortable naked bike, it felt good passing a few full race slicked supersports on my BT016 street tires.

I'm not an expert since I don't have a racing license, but I'm not a complete noob.

I've driven an 18 speed farm tractor at 30kmh, a backhoe loader, a Larson 35' powerboat, various go karts, many cars and trucks, and even a steamroller so hard I stripped its gear.

I would have no hesitation trying to whip an NSR250 around BRC or really anything under 200 Kilos.

I think you guys with the CBRs need to go ride your bikes at a track before you say the CBR could compete against a Ninja 250.

If you have any track experience with other sportbikes, you'd likely want to sell your CBRs.

Speculation and theories based on numbers are not the same as reality.

All of these bikes have poor race ergos but at least the Ninja soaked up the bumps like a real sportsbike should at BRC.

The CBR rode like a body on frame 4x4 truck; reminded me of a Ford Expedition SUV at turn 1.

Had I pushed the CBR any further it would have crashed, it would not have been faster.

I used to run the recommended street 28psi on my DTX at BRC and the front tire slipped on me 2 separate days before.

This test day I dropped them to 22psi and they never slipped.

This Ninja had very high tire pressure, more than the recommended street PSI.

Had I set the Ninja's tire pressure correctly it would have gone much faster and maybe never crashed.

I did not reach the limits of the Ninja, I met the limit of the IRC tires.

If the Ninja had race tires I would have shaved a lot of time off, probably a few seconds.

Even if you added 100 horsepower and race tires, the CBR's suspension would still limit my confidence if not toss me off the bike.

If I had more time on both bikes, the Ninja would just get faster times, the CBR would not until the suspension was replaced.

I have little fear of hurting myself at BRC since its such a slow track yet the CBR was scary to ride exiting turn one.

No sport oriented bike should be scary going at such a slow speed.

That is why I feel the CBR should not be on a track.

Racing is measured in hundredths of a second, you can cover a lot of ground in a second.

If you raced both bikes on a bigger track, there'd be a big gap in times.

Or through 50 kilometers of mountain roads, the Ninja rider might have time to enjoy a relaxed beverage at the end while the CBR rider would show up later and be wiping the soil out of his underwear.

The CBR is pretty quick and although speed is nice; handling is what keeps you out of a wheelchair or 6' under.

A V-rod, V-max, or even a Dodge Ram SRT10 pickup truck are fast, but handling is what defines a sportbike.

The CBR cannot handle a track so I feel its a sheep in wolf's clothing.

I'm being harsh on the CBR because I'd hate to see someone else ~95kg looking to buy a track bike and end up with a CBR that might throw you off a tight track in only 2nd or 3rd gear.

Remember this is all in good fun, talking numbers and BS'ing about which bike makes you look like you have the biggest wang is what forums are all about

BTW, a 250cc bike does not increase wang size unless you're like 15 years old. (OK an NSR250 or other 2 stroke 250cc may actually add an inch).

Only a Ducati 1098, Speed Triple or MVAgusta are considered manly wang pumpers IMO, I think they double the size of your wang.

So I ride a fairy DTX and Nouvo, but the Thai girls don't seem to complain about my small wang so I'm all set.

Edited March 29, 2011 by ttakata

[dave_boo]

Wow, you guys are getting fierce, I love the passion.

My Ninja crash ended the testing, it was during a hot lap, halfway through the last one.

Hey both Ninjas and CBRs crash, all riders make mistakes, even Valentino Rossi.

I'm just saying in a competition, the CBR has a much greater ability to make you crash.

Numbers are nice, I look at all the specs of everything I buy, but actual reviews and testing are better.

Numbers wise my old Springfield 1911 .45 caliber pistol was a better gun than my 9mm HK or Glock for stopping power, but what do more cops and military use?

The Euro guns since they rarely fail or jam, luckily I never had to test this theory.

Like I said I'm no expert rider or journalist but I have been riding off and on for 10 years.

I got my motorcycle license in 2000 from Richard Pettiford who owns a superbike school in Colorado.

I have raced many pocketbikes for 3 years (no suspension at all) including a 10HP DM Telai that went 68Kmh with stock gearing and kept up with a full size KTM motard on the Rialto (California) go kart track.

I have also had a 1 on 1 track day with Doug Polen (4x WSB champion) on the Willow Springs big track (fastest track in the Western US).

It was just an open practice day but I was going 150Kmh in the big turns and 210Kmh down the straight on my old 2006 MV Agusta Brutale 750.

Considering a Brutale is a comfortable naked bike, it felt good passing a few full race slicked supersports on my BT016 street tires.

I'm not an expert since I don't have a racing license, but I'm not a complete noob.

I've driven an 18 speed farm tractor at 30kmh, a backhoe loader, a Larson 35' powerboat, various go karts, many cars and trucks, and even a steamroller so hard I stripped its gear.

I would have no hesitation trying to whip an NSR250 around BRC or really anything under 200 Kilos.

I think you guys with the CBRs need to go ride your bikes at a track before you say the CBR could compete against a Ninja 250.

If you have any track experience with other sportbikes, you'd likely want to sell your CBRs.

Speculation and theories based on numbers are not the same as reality.

All of these bikes have poor race ergos but at least the Ninja soaked up the bumps like a real sportsbike should at BRC.

The CBR rode like a body on frame 4x4 truck; reminded me of a Ford Expedition SUV at turn 1.

Had I pushed the CBR any further it would have crashed, it would not have been faster.

I used to run the recommended street 28psi on my DTX at BRC and the front tire slipped on me 2 separate days before.

This test day I dropped them to 22psi and they never slipped.

This Ninja had very high tire pressure, more than the recommended street PSI.

Had I set the Ninja's tire pressure correctly it would have gone much faster and maybe never crashed.

I did not reach the limits of the Ninja, I met the limit of the IRC tires.

If the Ninja had race tires I would have shaved a lot of time off, probably a few seconds.

Even if you added 100 horsepower and race tires, the CBR's suspension would still limit my confidence if not toss me off the bike.

If I had more time on both bikes, the Ninja would just get faster times, the CBR would not until the suspension was replaced.

I have little fear of hurting myself at BRC since its such a slow track yet the CBR was scary to ride exiting turn one.

No sport oriented bike should be scary going at such a slow speed.

That is why I feel the CBR should not be on a track.

Racing is measured in hundredths of a second, you can cover a lot of ground in a second.

If you raced both bikes on a bigger track, there'd be a big gap in times.

Or through 50 kilometers of mountain roads, the Ninja rider might have time to enjoy a relaxed beverage at the end while the CBR rider would show up later and be wiping the soil out of his underwear.

The CBR is pretty quick and although speed is nice; handling is what keeps you out of a wheelchair or 6' under.

A V-rod, V-max, or even a Dodge Ram SRT10 pickup truck are fast, but handling is what defines a sportbike.

The CBR cannot handle a track so I feel its a sheep in wolf's clothing.

I'm being harsh on the CBR because I'd hate to see someone else ~95kg looking to buy a track bike and end up with a CBR that might throw you off a tight track in only 2nd or 3rd gear.

Remember this is all in good fun, talking numbers and BS'ing about which bike makes you look like you have the biggest wang is what forums are all about

BTW, a 250cc bike does not increase wang size unless you're like 15 years old. (OK an NSR250 or other 2 stroke 250cc may actually add an inch).

Only a Ducati 1098, Speed Triple or MVAgusta are considered manly wang pumpers IMO, I think they double the size of your wang.

So I ride a fairy DTX and Nouvo, but the Thai girls don't seem to complain about my small wang so I'm all set.

Firstly, all my comments are based solely on what's been posted here and around the internet; don't consider it an attack on you or your capability.

I would like to point out that the 45 was used by very few police forces; I think they may have been big in Texas, but that's par for the course. The 32 and 38 were standard issue around the country. When the forces finally went to semi-automatics rather than revolvers (90's timeframe) the military had already switched over to the M9 to standardise with the rest of NATO. This fact, combined with the quantity over quality thinking (more rounds with less stopping power per round---sound like the M16 all over again) resulted in the 9mm becoming the essential default. Note though that the JCP was going to go back to the 45 calibre. However everyone knows it's not the power, but the shot placement (which unfortunately for 45 advocates is easier with the 9mm because of the 'people friendly' nature of most of those 9mm guns).

Speculation and theories are just fine; especially when they're bourne out by reality. You were riding a Ninja with some 20 000 THB worth of mods on it and in your own words NOT pushing the CBR to the edge because you were not comfortable doing so, yet the Ninja could only get a 2% lap advantage. I've posted it before, but I'm going to do it again; here's the quote from an article where a winning racer tested both bike:

Well, we already knew what a cornering fool the little Ninja is. But we were a little surprised at how well the innocent-looking new Honda was able to keep up. Not only does it keep up with the Ninja, it actually ekes away from it corner by corner.

.......

And the beauty of the thing [Honda CBR 250R] is it continues to function at a high level even under expert floggage. Ridden by itself, the Ninja's a great corner carver. Ridden alongside the CBR, it's a bit squidgy/snatchy/plungey, and not as neutral or graceful.

Now there's two explainations; either the USM CBR has different internals on the forks or your test did not push the bike as hard as it could be. It's probably more diplomatic to state that the USM CBR has different setup, but there's no proof of that. Means there's really only one explaination. Just as there's no evidence that your setting of the preload on the two bikes was equal; by that I mean what if the CBR's preload was a higher rate than the Ninja's, even though they may have been set to the same number of ramps, and thus affected the adversely handling.

Also interesting to consider (speculate and theorise you could say) "If you raced both bikes on a bigger track, there'd be a big gap in times. Or through 50 kilometers of mountain roads, the Ninja rider might have time to enjoy a relaxed beverage at the end while the CBR rider would show up later and be wiping the soil out of his underwear." You mention the turn one as if that's where the CBR made you most aware of the CBR's abilities (in fact you used the word 'scary' for that turn). That's an essentially 90 degree turn after the 'straight'. The other turns are much slower turns with a tighter radius. Everyone knows that BRC is one of the smallest, if not the smallest, tracks in LOS. You also state that "The CBR is pretty quick" which is also mentioned in other reiviews; to the point that the CBR was winning drag races (even a youtube video that documents this). So I guess what I'm trying to say is that with a bike that has a higher output, has been modified (to the point that it cost the owner at least 37 000 THB more than if he had gotten a CBR), has a supposedly better suspension, etc it could only eek out a 2% win on a racetrack that should have favoured it; especially with a rider who is forthright about stating he was not comfortable on the CBR. Notice I say favoured it because you mention that the suspension was what tipped the balance towards the Ninja; would a bigger, and hence faster, track not level the playing field? According to your logic, the CBR was slowed down because it couldn't handle well; why wouldn't removing that from the equation make it just as fast (especially since at Bira, as I mentioned before, the CBR and Ninja reach the same velocity on the same section of track)?

As far as wang pumping goes; if that's what you take away from this, 'up to you'. And the comment about lack of complaints is curious since I've seen some really ugly gits get called a 'handsum man too much'....

[thaicbr]

i might suggest that the CBR just needs the fork oil checking. Seeing as how it's made by APe Honda there is NO guarantee that the fork oil is set up correctly or even the correct grade. Honda i like.

APe Honda sucks shit.