Older(?) Socal Style Building System In Thailand?

[klikster]

When I remodeled a 70's era house in Southern California about 15 years ago, I was surprised to see that it had no chipboard sheathing. (I think the newer builds require it.) Just "stuccoed" chicken wire, some diagonal steel wire (16 ga?) holding the builders paper in place, the studs, then the the wallboard.

So I got to wondering about issues with the same building "system" here in Thailand. One difference could be replacing the wooden studs with galvanized steel (electrogalv) because of the termites.

Seems it would make a tidier package, wiring in walls, piping in walls (heavier schedule), air con ducts in walls, etc.

I can imagine some of the negatives, but I wonder if the negatives outweigh the(my) perceived benefits

Any expert opinions?

[Riley'sLife]

It would seem to me to be a good building construction method for the Tropics, especially because it can be used in conjunction with the contemporary Thai favourite method using reinforced concrete pillars and beams. It could be used as a non-loadbearing “curtain wall” between these concrete structural members.

The low-mass of the wall would be a distinct advantage as it would not retain as much latent heat and would consequently cool down rapidly after sunset unlike a high-mass brick or block wall.

As it is essentially a “dry” method, the build time would be greatly reduced. I would use Smartboard externally with joints silicone filled (calking I think you say in SoCal!) and also covered with a vertical Shera wood strip, which would eliminate the need for the external render wet trade.

With a layer of insulation, maybe foil encased fibreglass and dry-lining plasterboard internally on the galvanised channel studs, the job could be completed rapidly.

One point, however. I am uncertain of where in the wall assembly both a vapour barrier and breather paper should be placed in the Tropics. I would be very concerned about the correct placement of these materials, especially if aircon was to be fitted which can create the perfect conditions for interstitial condensation to form within the assembly (warm moist air coming into contact with cooler surface within the fabric of the wall, the air reaching dew point and condensing unseen, within the wall), which, apart from being detrimental to the integrity of the wall, could pose a serious health hazard.

The wall would need to be fully sealed to prevent ingress of bugs, insects, jingjoks, rodents etc., of course!

-What negatives are you imagining, and what benefits do you see?

[klikster]

Hi Rileys'sLife,

Thanks, some nice answers.

As far as my imagined negatives, I think it would take a savvy construction manager to get Thai tradesmen to comprehend the system. Obviously some specialty power tool would be needed to make the job get up to speed. I also wonder about getting the interior guys to do a first-class job on taping the wallboard, doing a good skim coat, etc.

Another might be if the place ever flooded due to faulty plumbing or natural causes.

I hear you about the condensation problem. Frankly, I'm just not smart enough to address that. I was hoping an architect or two might thrash it around a bit.

Benefits: Speed of construction, hidden wiring, lower cost(?), better acoustics (possibly).

Also, I don't know much, er .. okay, anything, .. about Smartboard or Shera wood strip.

[Riley'sLife]

I’ve seen Thais use dry-lining and on the jobs I’ve seen up close, the nail spotting and joint taping couldn’t be faulted. Most shopfitting teams are experts at whipping up the galvanised metal framing, and the galvanised suspended ceiling tracks.

From my own direct experience in Thailand, I think that raising the floor level on concrete pillars and beams, even just a minimum of 1 metre, would be the wisest approach, to enable all services to be installed below the floor. The only service I would consider in the wall cavity would be the electrics. The only possible negative seems to me to be the problem of flooding caused by a faulty washing machine or dishwasher. My wife's house was mildly affected by flooding recently - we had maybe 1" of water on the floor in one room where I had built an internal stud wall with plasterboard both sides of galv metal studs, and half a tile upstand as a skirting. Fortunately there was no damage at all to the plasterboard because the tiles totally protected it.

I’m going to be starting a very small project soon and I have been considering using the system I mentioned for half of the build that will have natural ventilation and no aircon - open-plan living/dining/kitchen areas. (mainly because I reckon I can do it myself). The other half of the build will be Q-con block walls and will be airconditioned - two bedrooms. I do need to get a definitive answer to the condensation problem first though.

I think all your mentioned benefits are valid, but, from my experience in my wife’s house, rendered higher mass blockwork or brickwork would be better for deadening sound than any stud wall, but maybe you mean the actual reflected acoustics within the room, if so, then I can’t make any constructive comments.

The Smartboard and Shera wood products are cement fibre and suitable for external use and are termite resistant too.

I don’t mean to hijack your thread here Klickster, but if anyone knows where breather paper and impermeable vapour barriers are supposed to be fitted in an external stud wall in the Tropics, please add your knowledge here.

[klikster]

I'm not sure about Q-Con but a double panel wall is often better than a much more dense homogeneous mass because of the decoupling provided by the air space. One of the reasons I like stuccoed chicken wire is because it tends to act more like a limp mass, it has high density, and has "permanent" color, assuming a color coat stucco is used. I haven't seen any Sound Transmission Loss curves for Q-Con, but bricks and normal concrete blocks transmit pretty well in form octave bands. Double (overlapped) 5/8" wall boad is a prety darned good second barrier. In most housed, the doors and windows are weak links.

You make a really good point about the services being under the floor. As a matter of fact, my favorite house would be a Hawaiian plantation style (I think that's the term) elevated 2 meters. So lots of services like plumbing, some of the electrics and gas lines (I also like gas water heaters) could run under the floor.

About hijacking the thread, hijack away. Draws more interest and more valuable input.

[Riley'sLife]

Hey Klickster….Very interesting to see your inspirational Hawaiian design on your link.

My project’s design is quite similar but without the walkaround deck. My roof overhangs will be slightly deeper at 3m using colorbond metal sheets with factory applied and bonded insulation and reflective foil on the underside and Sherawood ventilated soffits below, the aim being to totally eliminate direct sun falling on the external walls. The east overhang will actually be 4m! The main roof will be traditional steep-pitched Thai style, with both room and roof void ventilation via the main roof end gables and four dormer roofs, all with radiant foil barriers and 6” fibreglass above the ceiling plasterboard, with high cathedral ceilings, exception in the study which will be 2.4m as it will be the only room to have aircon. (- as the wife has decided she doesn’t want aircon in the bedrooms). There will be covered decks on the North and East elevations. Like your Hawaiian design, it’s raised on pillars, with parking ,laundry, a guestroom with en-suite, and shaded communal area below the main house. The stairs will be internal for security reasons, which is also why it won’t have walkround decks.

Although the design concept of my project is almost the same as your favorite Hawaiian one, I drew my inspiration from a combination of Australian Tropical design and Traditional Thai design. The idea of using Smartboard with sherawood cover strips externally on the stud wall came from a hotel in NZ that a friend of mine built, although he used marine ply and hardwood coverstrips on timber-frame, but that would be the equivalent of inviting all the local termites for dinner if I built like that here! Coincidentally, a few of the designs in your link appear to show the upper external walls to be timber sheet with vertical cover strips.

The “no-painting required” aspect of render on wire that you mention is very appealing and can’t be over-emphasised. Anything cutting down on maintenance gets my vote everytime!

I really have no knowledge about acoustics at all Klickster, but I discovered a product today called Cylence by SCG, the same co. that makes Smartboard. They have developed a range of acoustic products including Zoundblock open cell mats sandwiched in a stud wall with double (overlapped) layers of what looked like smartboard fixed each side then these Cylence panels. In my local HomeMart SCG have a great new display including an entertainment room fully soundproofed using this system, as well as all their other products. If you don’t have a HomeMart close then check it out on www(dot)siamfiberglass(dot)com

[juehoe]

[...] My roof overhangs will be slightly deeper at 3m using colorbond metal sheets with factory applied and bonded insulation and reflective foil on the underside and Sherawood ventilated soffits below, the aim being to totally eliminate direct sun falling on the external walls. [...]

I am using this insulated roof material for my Thai kitchen. I works quite fine and is far cooler than the original semi-transparent plastic roof. But the surface temperature on the underside is still about 10 °C higher than the ambient temperature so you feel the radiant heat.

To reduce this, I plan to cover the underside with a Sherawood or Conwood - perhaps with an additional insulation layer between.

[Riley'sLife]

hi juehoe,

The closed cell foam insulation that is part of the factory applied metal system is of minimal thermal resistance, but one reason I use it is to reduce the possibility of condensation forming on the underside of the metal sheet, which a foil barrier alone does not do.

Using a metal roof in any situation where it is covering a room or deck, I wouldn’t cover the underside without also fitting 6” of StayCool leaving an air gap of at least 50mm below the foil barrier.

I even considered incorporating StayCool in all my metal roofed overhangs, but decided to only use it on the parts of the metal roof that cover the decks, because the purpose of the remaiming overhangs in my design is to just shade the external walls, as the walls themselves have a high level of thermal insulation.

The big advantage of metal is that it cools rapidly when it rains or after sundown, and that it can be used on a low pitch, and can be fitted without drilling fixing holes. Is your kitchen inside or outside?

You will notice a huge difference by fitting StayCool, and your temp should drop to ambient, until you start cooking of course!

[juehoe]

hi juehoe,

The closed cell foam insulation that is part of the factory applied metal system is of minimal thermal resistance, but one reason I use it is to reduce the possibility of condensation forming on the underside of the metal sheet, which a foil barrier alone does not do.

Using a metal roof in any situation where it is covering a room or deck, I wouldn't cover the underside without also fitting 6" of StayCool leaving an air gap of at least 50mm below the foil barrier.

I even considered incorporating StayCool in all my metal roofed overhangs, but decided to only use it on the parts of the metal roof that cover the decks, because the purpose of the remaiming overhangs in my design is to just shade the external walls, as the walls themselves have a high level of thermal insulation.

The big advantage of metal is that it cools rapidly when it rains or after sundown, and that it can be used on a low pitch, and can be fitted without drilling fixing holes. Is your kitchen inside or outside?

You will notice a huge difference by fitting StayCool, and your temp should drop to ambient, until you start cooking of course!

Hi Riley

Thank you for the additional suggestions!

My Thai kitchen is outside and has a more or less flat roof which is exposed to the sun until mid-afternoon. The situation is fare more better than before but you still feel the higher radiation level when entering the kitchen from the house. In the house, the surface temperatures are as ambient and about 10 degrees higher ambient under the roof (taken with an infrared temperature meter).

I am planing a "weekend house" in the Roi-Et province. Thermal comfort is my major concern. For the roof I already thought about a set-up similar what you are proposing (perhaps with even thicker insulation). I will start a post when the plans are "ready for discussion".

[Riley'sLife]

I can empathise with your kitchen problem. My wife’s house has a small area outside which has an overhanging cement sheet roof covering. The height of the roof is quite low,sloping from 2.5m down to 2m – it wasn’t built like that, but the floor level was raised a few years ago to stop flooding problems. Anyway, from about 11am onwards the heat from the roof makes it almost unbearable to sit in that area. It heats my head and I get a thumping headache. I had a small amount of 3” StayCool left over from some internal stud walls I had built and I just casually fixed the Staycool on a couple of roofing battens below the roof to see the result. It made an amazing difference. So I’m confident you won’t regret doing it, even though it is outside.

My aim is to design for living without aircon, (but I will have one room with aircon for the times when I just can’t handle the heat). I am in the early planning stages too. I look forward to reading about your weekend house plans.

[bbradsby]

Hi All,

Just catching up on this thread, very interesting indeed!

First up, the wall system originally mentioned is great for the coastal/desert (rare combination of biomes in one place) of SoCal with its minimal annual rainfall - I've designed & built there as well as in NorCal among other locales.

But design for tropics requires attention to the copious amounts of rain, humidity & ambient heat. Cement plaster is intrinsically hygroscopic even without cracks (and it always cracks) and the vapor barrier must be properly placed for the temperature curve that occurs within the building assemblies (walls, roofs, floors, ceilings) themselves. General rule is that vapor barriers are to be placed on the warm side of the assembly, but a proper analysis & design effort are required to attend to the rainscreen function of stucco/plaster (especially without sheathing of some sort), where to stop the moisture & route it down & out of your building envelope, as it WILL get past the plaster! ...and not least the condensation management issue.

Low thermal mass is best for tropical buildings, so a metal stud system is ideal assuming you can get the site expertise to get it built properly. Many residential contractors have never worked with a light-gauge metal framing system, though the merchant builders' ceilings are leading the charge in BKK.

[kamalabob2]

I have CPAC 12.5 blocks for all exterior walls in our home, and 95% of the interior walls were 7.5 CPAC blocks. One bedroom was too large so we spent 10,000 baht including materials and labor to have the gypsum ceiling crew make a very large closet but with no door, only an opening. Plenty of surface cracks on many of our CPAC walls, no cracks on the gypsum walls. The house was designed in 2006 and built in 2007 and the first 7 months of 2008. I wish I had attended the annual architect expo presented at Impact Convention Center each year in early May in 2006 or 2007. I attended for the first time that free show in 2008, then again in 2009 and 2010 and I would have changed many building materials selected had I seen with my own eyes what is actually available for ANY part of Thailand at that expo. It is NOT a sales type expo such as a HomeWorks or HomePro expos which really have a limited selection of building materials.

This year the Expo is called BuildTech'11 and they have a web site. http://buildtechexpo.com/ They offer free shuttle transportation from and to Mo Chit BTS and plenty of metered taxis are always available when you depart. Most every booth has TECHNICAL staff as well as head sales officers who UNDERSTAND and SPEAK English and you can get a much wider picture of what is actually readily available in Thailand. It seems to me that many building merchants are "authorized dealers" for many more building materials than you see as you walk about most building materials stores.

I have no affiliation with this event, but I 100% recommend any expat (or Thai person) thinking about building a home or remodeling a home to take advantage of this annual event. It is worth the effort to find out what is actually possible for your home building project and no need to blindly accept what is offered you by the normal Thai builder. Often the building materials firms will train staff of your construction project FREE if the material is not in common use. CPAC holds numerous "instructional seminars" at HomeMarts throughout the Kingdom, for various types of building materials.

Every insulation supplier will have a booth and every possible wall system that is actually for sale in Thailand will have booths, not just tile, pipe, electrical, window or steel suppliers. It is being held May 4th to May 8th and you can sign up at the door for free admission or register on line in advance for free admission. It is open from 11a.m. to 9p.m. each of those days.

[klikster]

I have CPAC 12.5 blocks for all exterior walls in our home, and 95% of the interior walls were 7.5 CPAC blocks. One bedroom was too large so we spent 10,000 baht including materials and labor to have the gypsum ceiling crew make a very large closet but with no door, only an opening. Plenty of surface cracks on many of our CPAC walls, no cracks on the gypsum walls.

Kamalabob2, thanks for this post.

Hmm .. maybe a better system for me would be using standard concrete blocks (is that the CPAC 12.5?) for exterior walls then steel stud and double gypsum board interior layer .. extending it slightly out past the columns. Room for flush mounted and hidden electricals. No rendering? Also nice air gap for insulation and better noise reduction. What are the standard stud sizes, 4" or thereabouts?

How nicely done was the room, re, plumb, square, finish, etc? I assume that the job went pretty fast?

Edited April 20, 2011 by klikster

[kamalabob2]

You would be better advised to attend the Architect Expo Builder Tech in Bangkok May 4th to 8th to meet with genuine building materials experts and see the actual products readily available in Thailand. In our experience we had the ceiling gypsum crew throw that CLOSET up with no hung door, no electric in the walls and no plumbing, The wall is 4" wide, nothing to rave about. In our case the building had all the electric wifes inside conduit, all vertical plumbing pipes (I would have chosen such different pipes had I attended the Architect Expo prior to approving our pipes), and all a/c piping and wiring; INSIDE the CPAC interior or exterior blocks, then rendered. They used a router to make a groove to install the conduit, pipes or a/c lines, then "chicken wire" over the pipes and then rendered it and let it set a few weeks prior to painting.

I spent a lot of money in an "upgrade" to have CPAC Ultra Kool insulation installed under the CPAC Monier roof tiles by our builders normal staff. The small birds in our attic just love to tear at the insulation. The small birds gained access to our attic due to one aspect of a retrofit to the correct size of rain water "valley". The builders cut open near the roof fascia board too large of an opening and never fixed that issue. Just one of the projects to fix long after a builder is gone. In our case the architect was tricked by a large builders merchant on which specific CPAC valley to specify in our building materials list. Just part of the "joy" of building a home in Thailand or any other Country for that matter. Just less zeros at the end to fix problems here as few seem to have a bond or liability insurance. License, degrees, sure, but insurance for an error, we are not in Kansas anymore.

The #1 thing I would have done different (and there are many) is to have paid the extra money to have Siam Services / CPAC install the roof as they would not have been tricked and they have a written real policy to come back and fix roof problems. But if you use a different typical building crew CPAC roofing services are smart and want nothing to do with repairs Up Country as they are walking into a hornets nest of previous problems.

We finally solved our roof problems by having two family members attend an informative free training session sponsored by CPAC roofing experts and held at the very reputable Surin HomeMart. The two family members they had a much better understanding how to fix problems and CLEAN out the leaves from the Metal roof valleys as leaves can cause a dam and lead to a "waterfall" in your attic.

[bbradsby]

I have CPAC 12.5 blocks for all exterior walls in our home, and 95% of the interior walls were 7.5 CPAC blocks. One bedroom was too large so we spent 10,000 baht including materials and labor to have the gypsum ceiling crew make a very large closet but with no door, only an opening. Plenty of surface cracks on many of our CPAC walls, no cracks on the gypsum walls.

Kamalabob2, thanks for this post.

Hmm .. maybe a better system for me would be using standard concrete blocks (is that the CPAC 12.5?) for exterior walls then steel stud and double gypsum board interior layer .. extending it slightly out past the columns. Room for flush mounted and hidden electricals. No rendering? Also nice air gap for insulation and better noise reduction. What are the standard stud sizes, 4" or thereabouts?

How nicely done was the room, re, plumb, square, finish, etc? I assume that the job went pretty fast?

Once you go to metal studs & interior gyp, the block becomes superfluous and a waste of floor area unless you need it for bullet resistance. Block's insulation properties are inefficient except for shaded thermal mass storage. So you may as well go all the way to modern, Western construction - assuming you or your crew have the skills. I'd then go to micro-fibre-entrained exterior cement plaster & lath over water-resistant membrane [must pass vapor], over proper sheathing, over metal studs w/ insulation, and finally to the gyp on the inside face. Many options & choices are implied therein, but this covers the framework w/o knowing project specifics.

[wpcoe]

One bedroom was too large so we spent 10,000 baht including materials and labor to have the gypsum ceiling crew make a very large closet but with no door, only an opening. Plenty of surface cracks on many of our CPAC walls, no cracks on the gypsum walls.

I may be mis-understanding the construction method, but if the closet walls are simply the aluminum framing covered by gypsum, is that strong enough to attach anything, like hanging rods, shelves or drawers? Or, will you just have free-standing wardrobes, drawer units and such?

[edited to correct formatting]

Edited April 21, 2011 by wpcoe

[Riley'sLife]

Yes wpcoe, it's plenty strong enough. But, it will be necessary to use proprietary plasterboard fixings and possibly spread the loading using battens depending what you want to fix to the wall. Everything you mentioned can be easily fixed provided you use the correct fixings and of course assuming the correct thickness of plasterboard has been used.

The fixings are inserted into the plasterboard after drilling the correct size holes. Then, when screw fixing your towelrail etc., the screw opens up two "wings" behind the plasterboard which close tight against the inner surface of the plasterboard securing the fixing in place. Other than these special plasterboard fixings no special tools or materials are required. For fixing larger items, first wooden battens can be fixed to the plasterboard using several of the special fixings I mentioned above, then simply use conventional screws to fix whatever you wish to the batten/s.

[kamalabob2]

We only put a one free standing metal cabinet and store some suitcases in that gypsum walled closet. In our garage we had some local wood guys make some closet furniture for another CPAC 7.5 thick interior walled walk in closet and built in wardrobes for other bedrooms. In America that sort of closet might be a tad out of reach and bracket hanging items from a discount Big Box retailer might be the way to go considering cost, but in Thailand things are different in some construction aspects.

[wpcoe]

Thanks. I wasn't sure just how strong the gypsum/metal framing was. I'd love to have a big walk-in closet like that.

I'm a particular fan of the "Elfa" (not the only brand, but the one I'm most familiar with) component systems. I actually found one 6' system of that type about 8 years ago in HomePro and snatched it up. I built a lumber (2x4) frame with gypsum to surround the area and added sliding glass mirrors in front of it. I probably could have saved money had I known a simply metal frame/gypsum wall was so strong. Next time! Thais are very skilled at working with gypsum.

[klikster]

Once you go to metal studs & interior gyp, the block becomes superfluous and a waste of floor area unless you need it for bullet resistance. Block's insulation properties are inefficient except for shaded thermal mass storage. So you may as well go all the way to modern, Western construction - assuming you or your crew have the skills. I'd then go to micro-fibre-entrained exterior cement plaster & lath over water-resistant membrane [must pass vapor], over proper sheathing, over metal studs w/ insulation, and finally to the gyp on the inside face. Many options & choices are implied therein, but this covers the framework w/o knowing project specifics.

Hi Bbradsby,

Thanks. I hear you about the wasted floor space. I supposed the concrete pillars and cross members are structurally sufficient? I would love to see rooms without the crazy double corners created by 8" (or so) columns and 4" walls. What would be the most elegant solution for that? I can think of a few approaches but they are rater inelegant!

.. micro-fibre-entrained exterior cement plaster & lath over water-resistant membrane [must pass vapor], over proper sheathing ..

Are these materials readily available in major cities outside Bangkok? What is the water resistant membrane. Sheathing .. termite resistant?

Bbradsby, I do really appreciate your adding your professional expertise to this thread!

[klikster]

You would be better advised to attend the Architect Expo Builder Tech in Bangkok May 4th to 8th to meet with genuine building materials experts and see the actual products readily available in Thailand.

Hi Kamalabob2,

That's good advice and will probably update my 15 year old thinking.

I will go to that expo next year. My build is about 1 - 2 years down the road. At my age it will hopefully be my last home, so I want it to be right. I just like to know precisely what needs doing how it should be be done before I talk to an architect and a builder.

[bbradsby]

Once you go to metal studs & interior gyp, the block becomes superfluous and a waste of floor area unless you need it for bullet resistance. Block's insulation properties are inefficient except for shaded thermal mass storage. So you may as well go all the way to modern, Western construction - assuming you or your crew have the skills. I'd then go to micro-fibre-entrained exterior cement plaster & lath over water-resistant membrane [must pass vapor], over proper sheathing, over metal studs w/ insulation, and finally to the gyp on the inside face. Many options & choices are implied therein, but this covers the framework w/o knowing project specifics.

Hi Bbradsby,

Thanks. I hear you about the wasted floor space. I supposed the concrete pillars and cross members are structurally sufficient? I would love to see rooms without the crazy double corners created by 8" (or so) columns and 4" walls. What would be the most elegant solution for that? I can think of a few approaches but they are rater inelegant!

.. micro-fibre-entrained exterior cement plaster & lath over water-resistant membrane [must pass vapor], over proper sheathing ..

Are these materials readily available in major cities outside Bangkok? What is the water resistant membrane. Sheathing .. termite resistant?

Bbradsby, I do really appreciate your adding your professional expertise to this thread!

The beams should be designed to span freely between columns, but check with your engineer. BTW, I actually like the honesty of expressed structure & partition, and visual interest added by the separate beam & column lines/shadows much more than simple room volumes when these are all hidden. But to each their own...

As to materials availability, yes Thailand has modern building systems components... just look at the Bangkok skyline! And anything is easily shippable from BKK. I'd also recommend self-builders go to the builders show next week. WR membranes are those that pass water vapor molecules but hold back water droplets - very different sizes. Old school asphalt-impregnated kraft paper is the simplest. Sheathing is just a bridging/backing between studs to hold your stucco/plaster lathe or chicken wire. Gypsum sheathing is best and termites don't eat rock so its applicable in LOS.

Just remember you're swimming upstream to build modern systems in LOS, especially outside of a large city here, so these assemblies may not be for inexperienced or unadventurous self-builders. But if you're building a house in LOS, you're adventurous by definition!

All the best,

Edited April 30, 2011 by bbradsby