I Thought I Could Get Away From This

[ChiangMaiFun]

Wonder what the reaction here on TV would be if these signs were quoting the Koran in a similarly aggressive way ??

I made that point earlier... or Zoroastrians or Scientologists or Satanists - isn't it illegal to put up signs on public posts anyway? I have nothing against Christians but I am against 'preachers' and especially in a Buddhist country - that is the bit I think is arrogant - to come over here to 'save' people and the signs ARE offensive as they speak of FEAR etc.

Edited April 18, 2011 by metisdead
Use the standard default font color.

[daoyai]

The signs were put up just around the time a car with a loudspeaker was driving around with the same message. There were also these newspaper-like pamphlets with a big picture of hell on the cover (not that appealing) being handed out. Apparently it's a localized Thai church that's doing it.

No matter how you feel about it, why get all upset and emotional about it? The fact is, we have to share this planet with people who have different beliefs and ideas. When they express those beliefs and ideas, why act like it's some violation of our rights?

Religious groups usually have a political agenda.

[james24]

Thanks guys

I guess the way to find out if there was a Jewish community around would be to keep the eyes peeled for a kocha butchers, cant say I've seen one though.

In actual fact I've never really seen Judaism in E, S.E Asia.

James,

There is a Chabad House located on Changklan Road just south of Pantip Plaza. It, along with the other Chabad Houses throughout the world, is run by the Chabad-Lubavitch which is a more fundamentalist branch of Judaism than the Reform or Conservative branches. I don't know of any other Jewish organizations or groups in Chiang Mai and only know of this one because it is near where I live and I pass it often on the way to and from other places.

David

Ah thats interesting to know, actually quite surprised.

Regarding religions having a political agenda look into the Vatican and Nazi connection.

Buddhism is far from a philosophy in my opinion, it's a religion just like any other. For some reason they have sold the idea that there are no Gods in the religion which if you look into is actually incorrect. Ceremonies, offereings etc etc are no different from any other religion, its just marketed a different way

Edited April 18, 2011 by james24

[uptheos]

The signs were put up just around the time a car with a loudspeaker was driving around with the same message. There were also these newspaper-like pamphlets with a big picture of hell on the cover (not that appealing) being handed out. Apparently it's a localized Thai church that's doing it.

No matter how you feel about it, why get all upset and emotional about it? The fact is, we have to share this planet with people who have different beliefs and ideas. When they express those beliefs and ideas, why act like it's some violation of our rights?

When they wickedly scare young innocent children, by telling them that they are already miserable sinners and will go to hell, with its fires, tortures and damnation for ever, if they don't constantly praise and worship some supernatural mystical being in the sky, that sees and monitors their every action 24 hours a day....then it's a violation of children's rights, of which we should all be concerned.

Edited April 18, 2011 by uptheos

[Beetlejuice]

I always feel at a disadvantage if approached by Jehova's witnesses in the street. Because there are no doors I can slam in their faces.

Edited April 18, 2011 by Beetlejuice

[jackr]

No matter your religious belief, or absence of:

"Until you have done something for humanity you should be ashamed to die." – Horace Mann

Actually - Thats a very good quote and may prove to be the best common sense on this post today!

Substitute humanity with Planet Earth and then you'd have something to be proud of.

As an agnostic, I can truly say that if I were to be given a choice of 'religion' it would be Buddhism. No God to worship, just be nice to other people and you get a better life next time around.

Yes, but that's Buddhism for many of our hosts all over. Do something so that YOU may ultimately receive... luck for ME now, good health for ME now, a good life for ME next time around. I don't see much in the way of wholehearted giving. But that's the MO for them all isn't it. Be good or YOU go to hell. Not, be a good person because that is the thing to do.

Who are you guys to say what a person believes are not believes.

But who are you to say what a person should believe! I have absolutely no qualms with people doing or thinking what they want... JUST STOP PUSHING IT ON OTHER PEOPLE!!!

---

Sometimes I really wish I were born a thousand years hence when, hopefully, all this crap will have been quashed or petered out so people can know the truth, but more importantly live for the now without fear of some ridiculous notion of damnation because some bloody book said so. The full workings of the universe will have been sussed out BY SCIENCE and there will be no room for religious hocus-pocus, little men in the sky, ad nauseum. That will be a fine time for humanity and everything else here.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I always feel at a disadvantage if approached by Jehova's witnesses in the street. Because there are no doors I can slam in their faces.

Easier to just walk away though, same same as peddlers of other crap like people trying to sell you shirts or a tuk tuk ride.

[lannarebirth]

Whenever I see something like this, whether ot be a sign, or a street preacher, or Karen nuns, I always think to myeslf what a lovely and tolerant society this is that I live in. When I read these kinds of comments and think about the kinds of people that must be making them, that view is reinforced with respect to Thai tolerance.

you're missing the point.... they take advantage of that tolerance in a way Buddhists do not - it's disrespectful

The fact is that there are Thais of many different religious persuasions here; Buddhist, Christian, Catholic, Muslim, Mormon, Jehova's Witness, and so forth. They all respect and tolerate each other. It is the farang bible thumping morons that I can't stand. They are everywhere and in large numbers and in your face and aggressive.

lannarebirth re "You don't know about Buddhist hell, huh? Ever been to Wat Rong Khun?"

Is that the Wat in Phayao? I've got photos if anyone cares to see them. I was surprised when I saw it.

Hi, I would like to see them.

It is about 10 km south of Chiang Rai

[ChiangMaiFun]

It is about 10 km south of Chiang Rai

Look very interesting - but, of course, we know that their is no 'hell' in Buddhism - only the inevitable karma and you can make your own hell of course - but no God judging from on high! and NO saviour who can wipe out your misdeeds - we all have to pay the piper.

Edited April 18, 2011 by metisdead
Please use the default color black.

[elektrified]

Whenever I see something like this, whether ot be a sign, or a street preacher, or Karen nuns, I always think to myeslf what a lovely and tolerant society this is that I live in. When I read these kinds of comments and think about the kinds of people that must be making them, that view is reinforced with respect to Thai tolerance.

you're missing the point.... they take advantage of that tolerance in a way Buddhists do not - it's disrespectful

The fact is that there are Thais of many different religious persuasions here; Buddhist, Christian, Catholic, Muslim, Mormon, Jehova's Witness, and so forth. They all respect and tolerate each other. It is the farang bible thumping morons that I can't stand. They are everywhere and in large numbers and in your face and aggressive.

lannarebirth re "You don't know about Buddhist hell, huh? Ever been to Wat Rong Khun?"

Is that the Wat in Phayao? I've got photos if anyone cares to see them. I was surprised when I saw it.

Hi, I would like to see them.

I was thinking of Wat Sri Khom Kham in Phayao. Here are some photos.

[mallmagician]

And this is one of the images on the wall of the White Temple in Chiang Rai.

Make of it what you will. There were also images of superheros from comic books and movies. The designer/builder of the temple explained to me that this is to signify that we shouldn't be worshiping fictitious characters, and that the solution to the evil and wrongdoing in the world is within us all. Considering the religion motivated Twin Towers attack depicted, and his subsequent comment about not worshiping fictitious characters, I think he did a bloody good job arguing for atheism! Made me chuckle. Once again, another religious institution trying to claim that the inherent morality in us all can only be reached through the spreading of fear, and by accepting some divine being.

Edited April 18, 2011 by mallmagician

[elektrified]

And this is one of the images on the wall of the White Temple in Chiang Rai.

Make of it what you will. There were also images of superheros from comic books and movies. The designer/builder of the temple explained to me that this is to signify that we shouldn't be worshiping fictitious characters, and that the solution to the evil and wrongdoing in the world is within us all. Considering the religion motivated Twin Towers attack depicted, and his subsequent comment about not worshiping fictitious characters, I think he did a bloody good job arguing for atheism! Made me chuckle. Once again, another religious institution trying to claim that the inherent morality in us all can only be reached through the spreading of fear, and by accepting some divine being.

I forgot about that white temple in Chiang Rai. I've been there too. Very interesting. I tried to post more pics of Wat Sri Khom Kham but it said that I had used all my available space for posting pics. I didn't know there was a 'cap' on posting pics on TV. Seems like Ian Forbes found a way around this with his endless posting of pics of himself and his BG's.

[LanxangBillybob]

The signs were put up just around the time a car with a loudspeaker was driving around with the same message. There were also these newspaper-like pamphlets with a big picture of hell on the cover (not that appealing) being handed out. Apparently it's a localized Thai church that's doing it.

No matter how you feel about it, why get all upset and emotional about it? The fact is, we have to share this planet with people who have different beliefs and ideas. When they express those beliefs and ideas, why act like it's some violation of our rights?

When they wickedly scare young innocent children, by telling them that they are already miserable sinners and will go to hell, with its fires, tortures and damnation for ever, if they don't constantly praise and worship some supernatural mystical being in the sky, that sees and monitors their every action 24 hours a day....then it's a violation of children's rights, of which we should all be concerned.

You make a valid point as far as preaching hellfire (a doctrine invented to keep churchgoers and those of other religions in line). My point was that the people here in Thailand aren't all up in arms over it. They are tolerant, they are emotionally intelligent (more so than many foreigners). Reading between the lines, some look at the Thais as naive, uninformed. Some have suggested that they're being taken advantage of. Give them more credit than that, please.

Also, as far as all the bashing on this thread, when I read the title 'I Thought I Could Get Away From This' I thought it would be attacking the very bigotry that this thread is now propogating. The other point, basically 'people should keep their own beliefs and ideas to themselves' is hard to take from someone using this thread to do just the opposite.

Edited April 18, 2011 by LanxangBillybob

[Dustoff]

~

I am not a huge fan of signs anyway but give them little notice except when they clutter the view when I am off into the mountains for a scenic motorcycle ride. I moved here a decade ago from the U.S. State of Hawaii where they have a law against roadside signs and billboards. I DO miss that unfettered view of awesome beauty!

I am also not a fan of people interrupting my peace at home with door-to-door sales or agendas. But for Girl Scout cookies, I figure that anything that has to be sold door-to-door is not something that I would normally be interested in.

When we purchased a license plate holder for our motorcycle here in CM, the paper plate that came with it had the number 666 in it so I cut it out and taped it to our front door. I occasionally see the fear-peddlers approach our gate but after a glance at the door, they don't bother to ring the bell.

In Hawaii I would simply open the door and let my 88Kg, 196cm (standing on his hind legs) Great Dane out. The look on their faces as he happily galloped out to greet them was almost as rewarding as watching them fall all over each other to be the first to get far, far away. He and I spent many happy hours discussing how they didn't really believe that their particular god was there to protect them ALL of the time..

I have nothing against any particular religion, just no interest in superstition or supernatural beings whatsoever.

[elektrified]

It's ironic, just a few minutes ago the born again were at my door! The last time they came knocking was about 2 1/2 years ago. Last it was the Thai Jehova's Witness, the young men with the pressed white shirts and black ties, the women with the long skirts, being driven around in an air conditioned, brand new car. This time it was the hill-tribe; 4 to a motorcycle. They tried to communicate in an unknown dialect and then left 2 books replete with illustrations, one in Thai and the other in English, "The End of the World..."

What do these people think the church will do for them now that they have been saved - presumably by the farangs?

[ableguy]

Here's an idea: Let's determine who wins the great ThaiVisa religion war by seeing which side expresses more tolerance, compassion, and understanding for the other in this thread. Winner gets eternal salvation, online bragging rights, and a Reuben sandwich on cardboard rye at the Duke's. Ready? 1...2...3...go!

I would sell my soul for a New York deli reuben sandwich right now.

[ChiangMaiFun]

The signs were put up just around the time a car with a loudspeaker was driving around with the same message. There were also these newspaper-like pamphlets with a big picture of hell on the cover (not that appealing) being handed out. Apparently it's a localized Thai church that's doing it.

No matter how you feel about it, why get all upset and emotional about it? The fact is, we have to share this planet with people who have different beliefs and ideas. When they express those beliefs and ideas, why act like it's some violation of our rights?

When they wickedly scare young innocent children, by telling them that they are already miserable sinners and will go to hell, with its fires, tortures and damnation for ever, if they don't constantly praise and worship some supernatural mystical being in the sky, that sees and monitors their every action 24 hours a day....then it's a violation of children's rights, of which we should all be concerned.

You make a valid point as far as preaching hellfire (a doctrine invented to keep churchgoers and those of other religions in line). My point was that the people here in Thailand aren't all up in arms over it. They are tolerant, they are emotionally intelligent (more so than many foreigners). Reading between the lines, some look at the Thais as naive, uninformed. Some have suggested that they're being taken advantage of. Give them more credit than that, please.

Also, as far as all the bashing on this thread, when I read the title 'I Thought I Could Get Away From This' I thought it would be attacking the very bigotry that this thread is now propogating. The other point, basically 'people should keep their own beliefs and ideas to themselves' is hard to take from someone using this thread to do just the opposite.

they are emotionally intelligent

[jackjones]

I just feel I might have more respect for the christian missionaries if they would try a more difficult option than coming over here and living in nice houses with maids and gardeners, shopping in high end supermarkets for western food, going to MacDonalds, temporarily adopting some native kids, sending their own kids to expensive private schools and driving expensive cars while all the time receiving a nice salary from home with the promise of more advancement when they return and then trying to convert people from a peaceful and non confrontational religion. It seems to have come a long way from the poor, simple, misunderstood, persuecuted guy in a basic cloth trying by example, to get a unifying message of peace and goodwill to all men over to the masses. I would try to have some respect for these missionaries if they were hungry, thin and barefoot and knocking on doors in say, Afghangistan, Baghdad or somewhere a bit more challenging than Thailand. Just my opinion.

Edited April 18, 2011 by jackjones

[jdinasia]

they are emotionally intelligent

Yeppers, they are. It is also not disrespectful to Thai culture for missionaries to be here, but it is disrespectful to Thai culture to not be tolerant of people with different religious beliefs

[uptheos]

I just feel I might have more respect for the christian missionaries if they would try a more difficult option than coming over here and living in nice houses with maids and gardeners, shopping in high end supermarkets for western food, going to MacDonalds, temporarily adopting some native kids, sending their own kids to expensive private schools and driving expensive cars while all the time receiving a nice salary from home with the promise of more advancement when they return and then trying to convert people from a peaceful and non confrontational religion.

Maybe they missed the bit that says "sell what you have and give to the poor" or "it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven" or "take no thought for the morrow and follow me".

But of course they will counteract with "we are doing god's work and he always wants the very best for his children" .

Edited April 18, 2011 by uptheos

[elektrified]

I just feel I might have more respect for the christian missionaries if they would try a more difficult option than coming over here and living in nice houses with maids and gardeners, shopping in high end supermarkets for western food, going to MacDonalds, temporarily adopting some native kids, sending their own kids to expensive private schools and driving expensive cars while all the time receiving a nice salary from home with the promise of more advancement when they return and then trying to convert people from a peaceful and non confrontational religion. It seems to have come a long way from the poor, simple, misunderstood, persuecuted guy in a basic cloth trying by example, to get a unifying message of peace and goodwill to all men over to the masses. I would try to have some respect for these missionaries if they were hungry, thin and barefoot and knocking on doors in say, Afghangistan, Baghdad or somewhere a bit more challenging than Thailand. Just my opinion.

I agree with what have to say with the exception of "...temporarily adopting some native kids..." I don't believe that is the case. I've talked to quite a few Christian Missionaries with adopted Thai kids because there are so many of them living around me. It is not that easy to adopt a child here. It costs a lot of money and involves a few trips down to Bangkok for interviews with police and psychologists and so forth. It is definitely not a temporary thing.

[Ulysses G.]

I just feel I might have more respect for the christian missionaries if they would try a more difficult option than coming over here and living in nice houses with maids and gardeners, shopping in high end supermarkets for western food, going to MacDonalds...

Sure, there are some hypocrites, but I know a number of them who do not have a pot to piss in, but they have been here for years living in crappy little houses, eating nothing but cheap Thai food, doing Christian works and not bothering anybody.

Many of them are actually good people who are Christians in the truest sense and that is more commendable than many of the other foreigners who wash up here.

Edited April 18, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[jackjones]

Sorry, I was using a bit of artistic licence about the temporarily adopting Thai kids part. I have never actually and never intend to, talk to any of these missionaries, but have often observed them in Mac Donalds in Carrefour and similar places and they often have one or two thai kids with them ( even before they go shopping, so they are obviously not buying them from the shelves ) Perhaps they are just taking them out for the day to show them what they have been missing by not eating real proper decent God fearing food or maybe they are some sort of missionary accessory, or a device to help ease their way into people's homes. I really don't know. But joking aside, it does worry me. There are some strange people hiding under religious banners.

[orang37]

Perhaps this might go up on signs all around the world: ... snip ...

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun JKO,

Just for the information of readers here, who may not be familiar with this famous teaching of the historical person, re-named 'Gautama the Buddha' (or 'the Tathagata' ... formerly Siddhartha, Prince of the Sakyas, formerly a world-renunciate ascetic yogi), it is the 'Kalama Sutta' (Pali "Kesamuttisuttaṃ"): it is Gautama's answer to a group of dignitaries from Kalamas, gathered at the village of Kesaputta, who had posed the question: "How can we know and recognize a true teacher ?"

Another translation:

'It is no wonder that a man gets puzzled and confused when he hears

teachings contradictory to each other, but I tell you this: don't accept a

thing merely because it is handed down by tradition, don't accept a thing

merely because many people repeat it, don't accept a thing merely on the

authonty of the sage who teaches it, don't accept a thing merely because it

is found in the so-called scriptures, don't accept a thing merely because

probability is in its favour, don't accept a thing merely because you have

imagined it, or that it is inspired by some supernormal agency.

After examination, after testing it for yourseff, if you find it reasonable

and is in conformity with your well being and the well being of others as

well, then accept it and follow it.'

Many westerners see in this (and we do), the essential spirit of empirical scientific inquiry that some find in the principle of William of Occam's "Razor" in western culture when "science" emerged from theo-philosophy, but with an added emphasis on the ethical concern for the "well-being of all."

best, ~o:37;

Edited April 18, 2011 by orang37

[Flatouthruthefog]

<br />'God botherers' of any type are a blight on the modern World.. Wonder when we will finally cast religion and all it's fairy tale nonsense into the trash and forget about it ?  Hasn't it caused enough death and misery. Apart from the US, Christianity is is becoming less and less popular it is struggling to find priests in Europe so they are now trying hard in Africa and the Far East.. They don't want to loose power and income.  Shame that the religious types will still be brainwashing kids from birth unless laws are enacted to prohibit religion untill later in life.. Alcohol, drugs and guns are all prescribed until adulthood and they have killed far less than religion..<br />

<br /><br /><br />

I'm fairly sure you meant 'proscribed', basically the opposite of 'prescribed' in this context.

I really really hope so!

[orang37]

... I forgot about that white temple in Chiang Rai. I've been there too. Very interesting. I tried to post more pics of Wat Sri Khom Kham

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Elektrified, fyi the "white Wat" by famous Thai National artist, Chalermchai Kositpipat, which many people consider both a Hindu and Buddhist temple, is Wat Rong Khun.

The closest Wat we know of that matches "Wat Sri Khom Kham," is in Payao, justly famous for the largest sitting Buddha image in northern Thailand, Phra Chao Ton Luang, 16 meters high, and 14 meters in width at the knee.

fyi: just to the left of that Wat's perimeter, as you face it, is one of the most excellent small museums in Thailand. It's called the "Cultural Exhibition Hall" and: "has displays of Phayao's ancient chronicles, cultures and traditions are shown. The hall is open Wednesdays-Sundays from 9.00 A.M. until 4.00 P.M. Tel. (054) 410058-9."

In that small museum is a two-meter high now jet-black-patinated bronze Buddha found in a river by a fisherman in modern times which is an absolutely stunning version of the style known as "Phra Song Khruen," or "Buddha in Royal Raiment," a style popularized in 15th. century Chiang Mai by King Tilokkaraja for many reasons, including a deliberate propaganda campaign backed-up by many imported Brahmins to validate his status as "dhammaraja," or "chakravartin:" in other words "uber-King by 'divine sanction' of his virtue (metta)" over the unruly feudal constantly warring Lanna city-states.

The two meter Buddha in Payao we refer to is much less ornately "crowned and bejeweled" than other examples of the style, but, to our psyche, really has "the mojo." Perhaps contributing to the "otherness" of our encounter with this Buddha image, was the fact its story was explained to us by a dwarf monk (most likely pituarity dwarfism, we suspect), and that's most unusual since usually any physical deformity, or impairment, excludes ordination in the Sangha here. His moon-like face glowed with the most lovely happiness as he told us the story of how the farmer caught his fishing line, then swam down and felt a Buddha statue, hauled it out, put it in his field, then got "nervous," and went to see the Abbot of his local temple, who agreed it belonged in a temple, and gave him 2000 baht for it ! It's almost certainly 600-700 years old.

best, ~o:37;

Edited April 18, 2011 by orang37

[realthaideal]

Thanks for raising the bar, Khuns Orang ! I just read the last 3 pgs of this thread (mostly 'Ugh!' and clearly a sign of internet addiction in need of intervention) and I am excited to see a bit of intellectual side notes. I'm a big fan of Phayao and found myself there in my first mo in Thld. many years ago - 'cause it's a place most tourists don't go. I found it to be quite a fun little town with lovely sunsets over the lake every night. I've been to the temple you speak of but not into the museum. It's been a few years, maybe time for a Phayao retreat.

And on a back-to-the-drum-beating stint, some of my first friends here in CM were from Phayao and ran an internet cafe back in the day. I was in their shop the 2nd day of my first Loy Kratong, not realizing their would be more than one day of the insane amazing beauty and chaos that I'd encountered the first night. As I saw the parade lining up outside I told them I must go and asked them what time they would close the shop or how/when would they go 'do' Loy Kratong. They explained that they were Catholic and so it was of no concern to them. For that, in spirit, my heart sank. I have been raised around some people of various religions who thrive on the 'this is not for us' mentality and have seen intimately how this then gives rise to the us-and-them mindset. It's just sad. I pick pantheism (Go Life of Pi !) over exclusion any day. I am happy I can, as a guest, learn about and participate in a 'more native' cultural ritual than one brought here from other recent winds and open my eyes to new ways of celebrating and enjoying beauty and life.

By the way, my religion: plenty of good food, sex, and laughter. Regrettably, I am not always able to practice all aspects of my religion as often as I'd like.

[cdnvic]

I tried to post more pics of Wat Sri Khom Kham but it said that I had used all my available space for posting pics. I didn't know there was a 'cap' on posting pics on TV. Seems like Ian Forbes found a way around this with his endless posting of pics

A way around this:

Get a free hosting account with Flickr, Windows Live, etc and upload all your photos there, then you can Click the "Insert image" icon and past the link into it. That will display your photo without counting toward your attachment limit. This also works with photos uploaded to your Thaivisa gallery.

[ChiangMaiFun]

they are emotionally intelligent

Yeppers, they are. It is also not disrespectful to Thai culture for missionaries to be here, but it is disrespectful to Thai culture to not be tolerant of people with different religious beliefs

hahaha

[ChiangMaiFun]

I just feel I might have more respect for the christian missionaries if they would try a more difficult option than coming over here and living in nice houses with maids and gardeners, shopping in high end supermarkets for western food, going to MacDonalds, temporarily adopting some native kids, sending their own kids to expensive private schools and driving expensive cars while all the time receiving a nice salary from home with the promise of more advancement when they return and then trying to convert people from a peaceful and non confrontational religion. It seems to have come a long way from the poor, simple, misunderstood, persuecuted guy in a basic cloth trying by example, to get a unifying message of peace and goodwill to all men over to the masses. I would try to have some respect for these missionaries if they were hungry, thin and barefoot and knocking on doors in say, Afghangistan, Baghdad or somewhere a bit more challenging than Thailand. Just my opinion.

I agree with what have to say with the exception of "...temporarily adopting some native kids..." I don't believe that is the case. I've talked to quite a few Christian Missionaries with adopted Thai kids because there are so many of them living around me. It is not that easy to adopt a child here. It costs a lot of money and involves a few trips down to Bangkok for interviews with police and psychologists and so forth. It is definitely not a temporary thing.

One of the tings I like about Asia is that it is, largely, Buddhist. They don't need Christians prosthelytizing here trying to convert uneducated Hill-tribes etc. It is defended on this board as most posters are white and, whilst maybe not practicing, Christian and they see Buddhism as an 'interesting' and 'exotic' part of Asia without understanding it. Christians pick Africa and Asia as it's 'easy pickings' for their 'crusade' to save souls. I, personally, believe Christianity a rather 'immature' religion compared to Buddhism.