Sorry, Another Land Title Question!

[BangTaoBoy]

I know these kind of questions must be asked a lot in this forum, but I did search for a long time and didn't really find anything specific to my queries.

I just want to know why reputable websites (suposedly) sell land, like some I looked at recently in Phang Nga, with titles such as Tor Bor Hok. As far as I know, that pretty much equates to squatters rights! Now these plots had 'valid' blue books, but surely, you still wouldn't touch them with a barge pole would you?

Can anyone give me any reasons, why anybody would buy this land. Surely they would never get upgraded from that title? Is there something I am missing? Are the agents blatently selling a piece of land that will undoubtedly get taken away at some time in the future?

Any thoughts appreciated.

[InterestedObserver]

P.T. Barnum is reported to have said it nicely, "There's a sucker born every minute". Not only is there a question of land title, but I bet they don't have valid building permits either.The blue book counts for nothing as far as ownership of the property is concerned.

Edited April 19, 2011 by InterestedObserver

[katabeachbum]

P.T. Barnum is reported to have said it nicely, "There's a sucker born every minute". Not only is there a question of land title, but I bet they don't have valid building permits either.The blue book counts for nothing as far as ownership of the property is concerned.

most of Thailand does not require a buildinpermit, and house is issued Tabien Baan when completed

Squatter right it is, but one can squatter for generations with a Tabien Baan on the lower "non titled" lands as most people do in rural Thailand

Tabien baan does not say anything about ownership, but having a Tabien Baan on these sorts of land certanly establish your squatter rights

[sbk]

KBB is right, squatter's rights can work here, but why someone would buy this property I don't know. My FIL (Thai) would never purchase anything that is not chanote.

[BangTaoBoy]

P.T. Barnum is reported to have said it nicely, "There's a sucker born every minute". Not only is there a question of land title, but I bet they don't have valid building permits either.The blue book counts for nothing as far as ownership of the property is concerned.

most of Thailand does not require a buildinpermit, and house is issued Tabien Baan when completed

Squatter right it is, but one can squatter for generations with a Tabien Baan on the lower "non titled" lands as most people do in rural Thailand

Tabien baan does not say anything about ownership, but having a Tabien Baan on these sorts of land certanly establish your squatter rights

So how come they are saying that the vacant land plot has a blue book already?

I supose the agents aren't doing anything wrong selling it then (assuming they are telling prospective buyers the truth about the title, which would be unlikely)

So I guess it's a complete unknown. You could live happily on that land for the rest of your life, or you could get it fleeced from you in less than 6 months. Can't see how anybody, that was armed with the knowledge, of what the land title implied, would take the risk.

[BangTaoBoy]

KBB is right, squatter's rights can work here, but why someone would buy this property I don't know. My FIL (Thai) would never purchase anything that is not chanote.

Either someone being lied to about the title, or someone happy to take the risk because is in the financial position to do so, I guess. Not for me though.

[thaiwanderer]

There is absoutely no reason to give money to someone in relation to such land. I deliberately avoid using the word 'buy' as you are buying / have absolutely nothing here.

The only circumstances in which you could possibly end up using and enjoying the land is if no one else is ever interested in it which of course is highly unlikely / never going to apply to any land.

It would actually be better to save your money and just squat on land which no one else is currently interested (which would not be puported for sale such as in the OP) or more sensibly just buy proprietory rights that mean something.

[BangTaoBoy]

There is absoutely no reason to give money to someone in relation to such land. I deliberately avoid using the word 'buy' as you are buying / have absolutely nothing here.

The only circumstances in which you could possibly end up using and enjoying the land is if no one else is ever interested in it which of course is highly unlikely / never going to apply to any land.

It would actually be better to save your money and just squat on land which no one else is currently interested (which would not be puported for sale such as in the OP) or more sensibly just buy proprietory rights that mean something.

Agreed. Which is why I find it strange that large agencies have such listings. You would think it would be best for their reputation to stay well clear as well. Maybe I'm being too naive, when it comes to how low estate agents will go, to make a few quid!

[katabeachbum]

P.T. Barnum is reported to have said it nicely, "There's a sucker born every minute". Not only is there a question of land title, but I bet they don't have valid building permits either.The blue book counts for nothing as far as ownership of the property is concerned.

most of Thailand does not require a buildinpermit, and house is issued Tabien Baan when completed

Squatter right it is, but one can squatter for generations with a Tabien Baan on the lower "non titled" lands as most people do in rural Thailand

Tabien baan does not say anything about ownership, but having a Tabien Baan on these sorts of land certanly establish your squatter rights

So how come they are saying that the vacant land plot has a blue book already?

I supose the agents aren't doing anything wrong selling it then (assuming they are telling prospective buyers the truth about the title, which would be unlikely)

So I guess it's a complete unknown. You could live happily on that land for the rest of your life, or you could get it fleeced from you in less than 6 months. Can't see how anybody, that was armed with the knowledge, of what the land title implied, would take the risk.

Tabien Baan (blue book) is only valid as long as a house exists on the land. Tabien Baan is never issued to land, only buildings. And Tabien Baan with registered resident(s) in building on untitled/low titled land works as proof of occupation, thus protection against other occupants

If they sell vacant land with no Tabien Baan/no house with house number, there is no way to know if someone else has the right to squatter/occupy the land. It takes one full year of "buyers" occupation before the other possible occupants loose their right to the land.

Chanote and NS3G is nice, but actually most of Thailand consist of these kind of property "ownership", and thus many Thais are lead to believe Tabien Baan is important for ownership.

[InterestedObserver]

P.T. Barnum is reported to have said it nicely, "There's a sucker born every minute". Not only is there a question of land title, but I bet they don't have valid building permits either.The blue book counts for nothing as far as ownership of the property is concerned.

most of Thailand does not require a buildinpermit, and house is issued Tabien Baan when completed

Squatter right it is, but one can squatter for generations with a Tabien Baan on the lower "non titled" lands as most people do in rural Thailand

Tabien baan does not say anything about ownership, but having a Tabien Baan on these sorts of land certanly establish your squatter rights

Most Thais only have possessory rights land + tax documents, not Land Department title deeds such as NS4J (Chanote), NS3K, NS3G or NS3. That is the reason why most Thais do not have building permits for their property .They are not squatters, but only have possessory land papers.

[katabeachbum]

P.T. Barnum is reported to have said it nicely, "There's a sucker born every minute". Not only is there a question of land title, but I bet they don't have valid building permits either.The blue book counts for nothing as far as ownership of the property is concerned.

most of Thailand does not require a buildinpermit, and house is issued Tabien Baan when completed

Squatter right it is, but one can squatter for generations with a Tabien Baan on the lower "non titled" lands as most people do in rural Thailand

Tabien baan does not say anything about ownership, but having a Tabien Baan on these sorts of land certanly establish your squatter rights

Most Thais only have possessory rights land + tax documents, not Land Department title deeds such as NS4J (Chanote), NS3K, NS3G or NS3. That is the reason why most Thais do not have building permits for their property .They are not squatters, but only have possessory land papers.

Requirement to apply and have granted buildingpermit is not connected with the land tiltle, but depends on the capacity of the local Or Bor Tor or Tessabaan. In several villages Land Office has caught up with the que of land title applications to Chanote, but buildingpermits are still not required even on Chanote land.

[sbk]

Most Thais only have possessory rights land + tax documents, not Land Department title deeds such as NS4J (Chanote), NS3K, NS3G or NS3. That is the reason why most Thais do not have building permits for their property .They are not squatters, but only have possessory land papers.

guess it depends on where you live.

[InterestedObserver]

Katabeachbum, The sum total of what you are saying is that a foreigner who purchases property such as the OP described will never be able to register ownership of his house at the land office to protect his investment since there is a total lack of documentation acceptable to the Land Department.

[thaiwanderer]

P.T. Barnum is reported to have said it nicely, "There's a sucker born every minute". Not only is there a question of land title, but I bet they don't have valid building permits either.The blue book counts for nothing as far as ownership of the property is concerned.

most of Thailand does not require a buildinpermit, and house is issued Tabien Baan when completed

Squatter right it is, but one can squatter for generations with a Tabien Baan on the lower "non titled" lands as most people do in rural Thailand

Tabien baan does not say anything about ownership, but having a Tabien Baan on these sorts of land certanly establish your squatter rights

So how come they are saying that the vacant land plot has a blue book already?

I supose the agents aren't doing anything wrong selling it then (assuming they are telling prospective buyers the truth about the title, which would be unlikely)

So I guess it's a complete unknown. You could live happily on that land for the rest of your life, or you could get it fleeced from you in less than 6 months. Can't see how anybody, that was armed with the knowledge, of what the land title implied, would take the risk.

Tabien Baan (blue book) is only valid as long as a house exists on the land. Tabien Baan is never issued to land, only buildings. And Tabien Baan with registered resident(s) in building on untitled/low titled land works as proof of occupation, thus protection against other occupants

If they sell vacant land with no Tabien Baan/no house with house number, there is no way to know if someone else has the right to squatter/occupy the land. It takes one full year of "buyers" occupation before the other possible occupants loose their right to the land.

Chanote and NS3G is nice, but actually most of Thailand consist of these kind of property "ownership", and thus many Thais are lead to believe Tabien Baan is important for ownership.

TB doesn't legitimise occupation or establish any squatter or other rights if the occupation and or use is illegal to begin with.

[thaiwanderer]

Requirement to apply and have granted buildingpermit is not connected with the land tiltle, but depends on the capacity of the local Or Bor Tor or Tessabaan. In several villages Land Office has caught up with the que of land title applications to Chanote, but buildingpermits are still not required even on Chanote land.

Are you suggesting a building permit isn't required to legally build? (chanote or otherwise)

[katabeachbum]

Requirement to apply and have granted buildingpermit is not connected with the land tiltle, but depends on the capacity of the local Or Bor Tor or Tessabaan. In several villages Land Office has caught up with the que of land title applications to Chanote, but buildingpermits are still not required even on Chanote land.

Are you suggesting a building permit isn't required to legally build? (chanote or otherwise)

In most of Thailand a buildingpermit is not required to build one house legally, and Tabien Baan is issued for this house when completed

[katabeachbum]

Katabeachbum, The sum total of what you are saying is that a foreigner who purchases property such as the OP described will never be able to register ownership of his house at the land office to protect his investment since there is a total lack of documentation acceptable to the Land Department.

yes, a foreigner can only protect his investment in land and house for title deeds issued by land office.

[katabeachbum]

TB doesn't legitimise occupation or establish any squatter or other rights if the occupation and or use is illegal to begin with.

of course not, but having a Tabien Baan with registered residents certanly makes legal occupation of no/low title land more secure, as even if no occupants are visible others will easily be able to know it is already occupied

[thaiwanderer]

Requirement to apply and have granted buildingpermit is not connected with the land tiltle, but depends on the capacity of the local Or Bor Tor or Tessabaan. In several villages Land Office has caught up with the que of land title applications to Chanote, but buildingpermits are still not required even on Chanote land.

Are you suggesting a building permit isn't required to legally build? (chanote or otherwise)

In most of Thailand a buildingpermit is not required to build one house legally, and Tabien Baan is issued for this house when completed

While there are some exemptions I would suggest the requirement for a permit under the building control act applies to most of thailand rather than vice versa.

I have no idea what difference 'one house' makes?

[katabeachbum]

Requirement to apply and have granted buildingpermit is not connected with the land tiltle, but depends on the capacity of the local Or Bor Tor or Tessabaan. In several villages Land Office has caught up with the que of land title applications to Chanote, but buildingpermits are still not required even on Chanote land.

Are you suggesting a building permit isn't required to legally build? (chanote or otherwise)

In most of Thailand a buildingpermit is not required to build one house legally, and Tabien Baan is issued for this house when completed

While there are some exemptions I would suggest the requirement for a permit under the building control act applies to most of thailand rather than vice versa.

I have no idea what difference 'one house' makes?

so lets call it "a house"

Fact

Most Or Bor Tor (or Tessabaan) do not have the qualifications nor the staff to even consider a buildingapplication, and this goes for at least 2/3 of this countries land area. Villages as large as 10.000 residents still do not require buildingpermits, including my GF village. Tabien Baan is issued when roof is covered.

In more urban areas with better economy, buildingpermits area required, but this is hardly more than 1/3 of this countries area, probably less. But measured in population, I assume +50 million people live in areas where buildinpermits are required

Stats are available for those who seek

[BangTaoBoy]

I'm still missing one thing here. These adverts (I found one on TV classifieds last night) that say the land plot has a 'Blue house book' with it. If these can't be issued until the house is built, then is that a complete fabrication? Or is it a book from a house that existed previously on the land, and can be used again for the next build?

It's not relevent, I'm not contemplating buying anything with these titles, I'm just wondering if these agents are blatantly lieing about the blue book aspect.

[katabeachbum]

I'm still missing one thing here. These adverts (I found one on TV classifieds last night) that say the land plot has a 'Blue house book' with it. If these can't be issued until the house is built, then is that a complete fabrication? Or is it a book from a house that existed previously on the land, and can be used again for the next build?

It's not relevent, I'm not contemplating buying anything with these titles, I'm just wondering if these agents are blatantly lieing about the blue book aspect.

On one occasion my GF teared down an existing shack with Tabien Baan, and build a better concret/brick house. Dont know if old Tabien Baan should have been canselled and new issued. But in areas with no buildinpermit, there is no record of house size, design or shape, just stating "a house", which can be a shack.

[InterestedObserver]

I'm still missing one thing here. These adverts (I found one on TV classifieds last night) that say the land plot has a 'Blue house book' with it. If these can't be issued until the house is built, then is that a complete fabrication? Or is it a book from a house that existed previously on the land, and can be used again for the next build?

It's not relevent, I'm not contemplating buying anything with these titles, I'm just wondering if these agents are blatantly lieing about the blue book aspect.

You overlook the entire point! There is no land title deed or building permit, so the blue house book is used as part of the scam to entice foreign buyers into parting with their money for a house that they can never register ownership of. The blue house book is irrelevant to the land/house ownership issue, makes no difference where it came from..

[thaiwanderer]

so lets call it "a house"

Fact

Most Or Bor Tor (or Tessabaan) do not have the qualifications nor the staff to even consider a buildingapplication, and this goes for at least 2/3 of this countries land area. Villages as large as 10.000 residents still do not require buildingpermits, including my GF village. Tabien Baan is issued when roof is covered.

In more urban areas with better economy, buildingpermits area required, but this is hardly more than 1/3 of this countries area, probably less. But measured in population, I assume +50 million people live in areas where buildinpermits are required

Stats are available for those who seek

Well 'not required' here therefore means lack of enforcement of requirements.

What Thais in Nakhon Nowhere are practically currently able to do is not a real guide unless that's plainly stated.

(and as per a previous thread its the same as 'competent persons' err-ing)

[BangTaoBoy]

I'm still missing one thing here. These adverts (I found one on TV classifieds last night) that say the land plot has a 'Blue house book' with it. If these can't be issued until the house is built, then is that a complete fabrication? Or is it a book from a house that existed previously on the land, and can be used again for the next build?

It's not relevent, I'm not contemplating buying anything with these titles, I'm just wondering if these agents are blatantly lieing about the blue book aspect.

You overlook the entire point! There is no land title deed or building permit, so the blue house book is used as part of the scam to entice foreign buyers into parting with their money for a house that they can never register ownership of. The blue house book is irrelevant to the land/house ownership issue, makes no difference where it came from..

What do you mean there is no land title deed? Tor Bor Hok is a title deed, is it not? It's just the very bottom rung of the ladder, and worthless to a Farang. My understanding of it, is that Thais all over rural Thailand are living on such land. And as they have the deed that says they are the squatters on the land, and nobody else is, they are not breaking any laws by doing so. Although obviously by being squatters, they could be removed at any time by the powers that be. This surely, is where the problem arises for the Farang. Nobody has the desire to make some extremely poor Thai family living in a corrugated shack, in the middle of nowhere, homeless.A Farang however, living on a piece of land that is even remotely appealing, will draw the attention of people, who will seek to profit at their expense.

As for the blue book. I understand that it has nothing to do with the ownership rights of the land, that wasn't my question. My question was, Is the claim by the agent of a blue book, a complete fabrication, or is it possible that it exists from a house that stood on the land before, and then can be used for the next building to go up? According to KBB this could be the case, but perhaps a new one should have been applied for, when the new one went up.

I've just read this on a website:

Sor Bor Kor: (Chanote Title)

A true title deed accurately surveyed. However the land may not be sold or transferred unless bequeathed in a will.

How can that be right?

[katabeachbum]

I'm still missing one thing here. These adverts (I found one on TV classifieds last night) that say the land plot has a 'Blue house book' with it. If these can't be issued until the house is built, then is that a complete fabrication? Or is it a book from a house that existed previously on the land, and can be used again for the next build?

It's not relevent, I'm not contemplating buying anything with these titles, I'm just wondering if these agents are blatantly lieing about the blue book aspect.

You overlook the entire point! There is no land title deed or building permit, so the blue house book is used as part of the scam to entice foreign buyers into parting with their money for a house that they can never register ownership of. The blue house book is irrelevant to the land/house ownership issue, makes no difference where it came from..

What do you mean there is no land title deed? Tor Bor Hok is a title deed, is it not? It's just the very bottom rung of the ladder, and worthless to a Farang. My understanding of it, is that Thais all over rural Thailand are living on such land. And as they have the deed that says they are the squatters on the land, and nobody else is, they are not breaking any laws by doing so. Although obviously by being squatters, they could be removed at any time by the powers that be. This surely, is where the problem arises for the Farang. Nobody has the desire to make some extremely poor Thai family living in a corrugated shack, in the middle of nowhere, homeless.A Farang however, living on a piece of land that is even remotely appealing, will draw the attention of people, who will seek to profit at their expense.

As for the blue book. I understand that it has nothing to do with the ownership rights of the land, that wasn't my question. My question was, Is the claim by the agent of a blue book, a complete fabrication, or is it possible that it exists from a house that stood on the land before, and then can be used for the next building to go up? According to KBB this could be the case, but perhaps a new one should have been applied for, when the new one went up.

I've just read this on a website:

Sor Bor Kor: (Chanote Title)

A true title deed accurately surveyed. However the land may not be sold or transferred unless bequeathed in a will.

How can that be right?

Occupied land upgrade to Chanote land title, which all Land offices has as a goal to complete in not to many years, can not be sold/transfered/register loan/lease/usufruct initial 10 years after upgrading

[katabeachbum]

so lets call it "a house"

Fact

Most Or Bor Tor (or Tessabaan) do not have the qualifications nor the staff to even consider a buildingapplication, and this goes for at least 2/3 of this countries land area. Villages as large as 10.000 residents still do not require buildingpermits, including my GF village. Tabien Baan is issued when roof is covered.

In more urban areas with better economy, buildingpermits area required, but this is hardly more than 1/3 of this countries area, probably less. But measured in population, I assume +50 million people live in areas where buildinpermits are required

Stats are available for those who seek

Well 'not required' here therefore means lack of enforcement of requirements.

What Thais in Nakhon Nowhere are practically currently able to do is not a real guide unless that's plainly stated.

(and as per a previous thread its the same as 'competent persons' err-ing)

not required means not required.

lack of enforcement is when you dont get fined for driving without helmet.

[thaiwanderer]

I'm still missing one thing here. These adverts (I found one on TV classifieds last night) that say the land plot has a 'Blue house book' with it. If these can't be issued until the house is built, then is that a complete fabrication? Or is it a book from a house that existed previously on the land, and can be used again for the next build?

It's not relevent, I'm not contemplating buying anything with these titles, I'm just wondering if these agents are blatantly lieing about the blue book aspect.

You overlook the entire point! There is no land title deed or building permit, so the blue house book is used as part of the scam to entice foreign buyers into parting with their money for a house that they can never register ownership of. The blue house book is irrelevant to the land/house ownership issue, makes no difference where it came from..

What do you mean there is no land title deed? Tor Bor Hok is a title deed, is it not? It's just the very bottom rung of the ladder, and worthless to a Farang. My understanding of it, is that Thais all over rural Thailand are living on such land. And as they have the deed that says they are the squatters on the land, and nobody else is, they are not breaking any laws by doing so. Although obviously by being squatters, they could be removed at any time by the powers that be. This surely, is where the problem arises for the Farang. Nobody has the desire to make some extremely poor Thai family living in a corrugated shack, in the middle of nowhere, homeless.A Farang however, living on a piece of land that is even remotely appealing, will draw the attention of people, who will seek to profit at their expense.

As for the blue book. I understand that it has nothing to do with the ownership rights of the land, that wasn't my question. My question was, Is the claim by the agent of a blue book, a complete fabrication, or is it possible that it exists from a house that stood on the land before, and then can be used for the next building to go up? According to KBB this could be the case, but perhaps a new one should have been applied for, when the new one went up.

I've just read this on a website:

Sor Bor Kor: (Chanote Title)

A true title deed accurately surveyed. However the land may not be sold or transferred unless bequeathed in a will.

How can that be right?

Blue books (just as land title deeds) can be issued incorrectly (whether by accident or design) and no liability attaches to the fault of a (in-)'competent person' in wrongly issuing them.

The land advertised may or may not have a blue book - doesn't mean it should or could legitimately have or have had one issued, and the existence of a blue book here means nothing.

The agent may be advertising correctly that it has a blue book but that book cannot be relied upon for anything.

There is a distinction between the likelihood of what a Thai may get away with as opposed to a Farang but this doesn't legitimise it.

NS4J / Chanote is the only ownership title deed (if issued correctly and legitimately).

The other common 'titles' are just records of occupation, possession or utilization which are useful so long as it is understood exactly what they stand for.

Lots of land is purportedly bought and sold which shouldn't be and cannot legitimately be.

[katabeachbum]

I'm still missing one thing here. These adverts (I found one on TV classifieds last night) that say the land plot has a 'Blue house book' with it. If these can't be issued until the house is built, then is that a complete fabrication? Or is it a book from a house that existed previously on the land, and can be used again for the next build?

It's not relevent, I'm not contemplating buying anything with these titles, I'm just wondering if these agents are blatantly lieing about the blue book aspect.

You overlook the entire point! There is no land title deed or building permit, so the blue house book is used as part of the scam to entice foreign buyers into parting with their money for a house that they can never register ownership of. The blue house book is irrelevant to the land/house ownership issue, makes no difference where it came from..

What do you mean there is no land title deed? Tor Bor Hok is a title deed, is it not? It's just the very bottom rung of the ladder, and worthless to a Farang. My understanding of it, is that Thais all over rural Thailand are living on such land. And as they have the deed that says they are the squatters on the land, and nobody else is, they are not breaking any laws by doing so. Although obviously by being squatters, they could be removed at any time by the powers that be. This surely, is where the problem arises for the Farang. Nobody has the desire to make some extremely poor Thai family living in a corrugated shack, in the middle of nowhere, homeless.A Farang however, living on a piece of land that is even remotely appealing, will draw the attention of people, who will seek to profit at their expense.

As for the blue book. I understand that it has nothing to do with the ownership rights of the land, that wasn't my question. My question was, Is the claim by the agent of a blue book, a complete fabrication, or is it possible that it exists from a house that stood on the land before, and then can be used for the next building to go up? According to KBB this could be the case, but perhaps a new one should have been applied for, when the new one went up.

I've just read this on a website:

Sor Bor Kor: (Chanote Title)

A true title deed accurately surveyed. However the land may not be sold or transferred unless bequeathed in a will.

How can that be right?

Blue books (just as land title deeds) can be issued incorrectly (whether by accident or design) and no liability attaches to the fault of a (in-)'competent person' in wrongly issuing them.

The land advertised may or may not have a blue book - doesn't mean it should or could legitimately have or have had one issued, and the existence of a blue book here means nothing.

The agent may be advertising correctly that it has a blue book but that book cannot be relied upon for anything.

There is a distinction between the likelihood of what a Thai may get away with as opposed to a Farang but this doesn't legitimise it.

NS4J / Chanote is the only ownership title deed (if issued correctly and legitimately).

The other common 'titles' are just records of occupation, possession or utilization which are useful so long as it is understood exactly what they stand for.

Lots of land is purportedly bought and sold which shouldn't be and cannot legitimately be.

guess you forgot NS3G, which legally is on par with Chanote, but not as exactly measured. Banks accept NS3G on par with Chanote for registered loans

[thaiwanderer]

guess you forgot NS3G, which legally is on par with Chanote, but not as exactly measured. Banks accept NS3G on par with Chanote for registered loans

No, didn't forget it. Its not quite ownership.