Thai-Cambodia Clashes Continue, Toll Rises

[webfact]

Thai-Cambodia clashes continue, toll rises

SAMRONG, April 28, 2011 (AFP) - Heavy weapons fire pounded the Thai-Cambodian border for a seventh day on Thursday as officials confirmed a 15th death in the bloodiest fighting between the neighbours in decades.

Hopes appear to have faded for an imminent end to the violence around two disputed jungle temples, which has forced tens of thousands of civilians on both sides to flee their homes.

"One Thai soldier died during a clash this morning and four were wounded," Major Sukit Subanjui, deputy spokesman for northeastern region Thai army, told AFP.

Cambodian field commander Suos Sothea said the latest skirmishes had started in the early morning.

"The fighting is very heavy," he told AFP, confirming that it involved rockets and artillery fire.

The Cambodian Ministry of Defence said in a statement Thursday that the violence had spread to at least two nearby villages.

Both sides continue to blame each other for sparking the attacks and talks aimed at ending hostilities, which had been due to take place in Phnom Penh on Wednesday, were called off by Thailand's defence minister at the last minute.

Thai Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya left for Jakarta, chair of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) regional bloc, on Thursday and is due to discuss the clashes with his Indonesian counterpart Marty Natalegawa.

The US ambassador to Thailand, Kristie Kenney, urged the neighbours to return to the negotiating table and said she hoped ASEAN would help the talks.

Eight Cambodian and six Thai troops have died since fighting began on Friday along their shared border, prompting growing diplomatic pressure on the neighbours to end the conflict.

Bangkok has said a Thai civilian has also been killed.

"In the end this issue must be resolved by negotiation and there are still avenues for talks. War only cause losses, injures and deaths," Thai Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban told reporters on Thursday.

The Thai-Cambodian border has never been fully demarcated, partly because it is littered with landmines left over from years of war in Cambodia.

On Tuesday the fighting briefly spread to the 900-year-old Preah Vihear temple, which has been the focus of strained relations between the neighbours since it was granted UN World Heritage status in 2008.

In February, 10 people were killed near the Preah Vihear temple, which is 150 kilometres (90 miles) east of the two other ancient temple complexes at the centre of the current clashes, prompting a UN appeal for a permanent ceasefire.

The neighbours agreed in late February to allow observers from Indonesia into the area near Preah Vihear. But the Thai military has since said the monitors are not welcome and they have not been deployed.

The World Court ruled in 1962 that the temple belonged to Cambodia, but both countries claim ownership of a 4.6-square-kilometre (1.8-square-mile) surrounding area.

Cambodia has accused Thailand of using spy planes and poisonous gas in the recent fighting -- an allegation denied by Bangkok.

The fighting comes at a sensitive political time for Thailand, with Abhisit preparing to dissolve the lower house of parliament for elections he has said will be held by early July.

Abhisit said on Tuesday that the clashes would not derail his polls plan.

-- (c) Copyright AFP 2011-04-28

[anotheruser]

They are just pretending to fight for whatever reason. If they really wanted to fight they would have done so already.

[rubl]

They are just pretending to fight for whatever reason. If they really wanted to fight they would have done so already.

The two sides are shelling each other, but actually fighting like soldier against soldier? No idea and the information till now also doesn't seem to say ?

[wintermute]

They are just pretending to fight for whatever reason. If they really wanted to fight they would have done so already.

The two sides are shelling each other, but actually fighting like soldier against soldier? No idea and the information till now also doesn't seem to say ?

I bet both Cambodian and Thai soldiers have a high number of casualties with back wounds.

[Buchholz]

They are just pretending to fight for whatever reason. If they really wanted to fight they would have done so already.

The two sides are shelling each other, but actually fighting like soldier against soldier? No idea and the information till now also doesn't seem to say ?

There has been some up close and personal fighting...

A Thai soldier displays munitions seized during clashes with Cambodian troops at a news conference in Thailand's Surin province April 26, 2011. Thailand sent troop reinforcements to its border with Cambodia on Tuesday after four days of fighting killed at least 13 people in the bloodiest clashes between the neighbours in nearly two decades

REUTERS

http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/slideshow/photo//110426/ids_photos_wl/r982479897.jpg/

Thai Troops Seize Weapons from Cambodian Soldiers

The Thai army has reported seizing war weapons from Cambodian troops during the border clash near the ancient Ta Muen Thom Temple.

Prime Minister's Office Minister Ongart Klampaibul, along with head of the Region 2 Army Public Relations Office, Colonel Preeda Butratch, announced that Thai troops seized war weapons from Cambodian soldiers during the border clash near the Ta Muen Thom Temple on Sunday.

A paramilitary unit deployed at an army camp east of the Ta Muen Thom Temple confronted an advancing Cambodian military unit that was trespassing 50 meters into the Thai territory.

The two sides exchanged fire and the Cambodian troops eventually retreated.

After the gunfire, Thai soldiers seized a 60-mm grenade launcher, ten 60-mm ammunition rounds, an RPG-2 grenade launcher, four rocket-propelled grenades and 100 rounds of M-80 machine gun ammunition.

Edited April 28, 2011 by Buchholz

[webfact]

Defence Ministry spokesman confirms defence minister ready to negotiate with Cambodia but Cambodia must end all fighting /TAN_Network

US ambassador meets PM and asks Thailand and Cambodia to use restraint and return to the negotiating table /TAN_Network

[wintermute]

After the gunfire, Thai soldiers seized a 60-mm grenade launcher, ten 60-mm ammunition rounds, an RPG-2 grenade launcher, four rocket-propelled grenades and 100 rounds of M-80 machine gun ammunition.

If the Cambodians were Vietnamese they would have had the foresight to booby trap it so that the Thais would get a nasty surprise when they tried to do photo ops.

[Buchholz]

After the gunfire, Thai soldiers seized a 60-mm grenade launcher, ten 60-mm ammunition rounds, an RPG-2 grenade launcher, four rocket-propelled grenades and 100 rounds of M-80 machine gun ammunition.

If the Cambodians were Vietnamese they would have had the foresight to booby trap it so that the Thais would get a nasty surprise when they tried to do photo ops.

If the Cambodians were like the overwhelming vast majority of disciplined soldiers elsewhere, they never would have abandoned and leave their weapons and ammunition behind when they retreated.

That's a court-martial offense in many countries.

.

Edited April 28, 2011 by Buchholz

[webfact]

US ambassador discusses border dispute with Abhisit

US ambassador to Thailand Kristie Kenney visited Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva Thursday morning to discuss the Thai-Cambodian clashes.

Speaking to reporters after the meeting at the Government House at 8 am, the ambassador said she discussed the border dispute with the prime minister.

She said the US has been a long-time friend of both Thailand and Cambodia and the US government wants to see the two neighbouring countries settle the dispute with a peaceful means.

Kenney said the US government regarded that the dispute was bilateral problem of the two countries so Bangkok and Phnom Penh should return to the negotiating table as soon as possible.

-- The Nation 2011-04-28

[wintermute]

After the gunfire, Thai soldiers seized a 60-mm grenade launcher, ten 60-mm ammunition rounds, an RPG-2 grenade launcher, four rocket-propelled grenades and 100 rounds of M-80 machine gun ammunition.

If the Cambodians were Vietnamese they would have had the foresight to booby trap it so that the Thais would get a nasty surprise when they tried to do photo ops.

If the Cambodians were like the overwhelming vast majority of disciplined soldiers elsewhere, they never would have abandoned and leave their weapons and ammunition behind when they retreated.

That's a court-martial offense in many countries.

.

Both sides are made up of ragtag banana republic conscript armies fighting each other anyways. Inferior forces tend to grind each other down for years without any real ground being taken or given.

[webfact]

Foreign minister to visit Indonesia this afternoon to meet with Asean chairman on Thai-Cambodian conflict /TAN_Network

[webfact]

House Speaker Chai says attempt to seek discussion with Cambodian MPs about fighting must be approved by Thai Parliament first /TAN_Network

[geovalin]

House Speaker Chai says attempt to seek discussion with Cambodian MPs about fighting must be approved by Thai Parliament first /TAN_Network

Well, this highlights exactly the point of the Cambodian side. Why to speak with Kasit or even Abisith because they do not have the power to make any decision? Thais will promise a lot of things (even a ceasefire or foreign observers, etc.) and at the end we discover that the army / yellow and so on will obliged the gvt to betrayed its promise one more time. It makes Hun Sen (who by the way is qucik-tempered) absolutely crazy because when Thais breached their promises, he feels deeply / personally betrayed.

[webfact]

US urges Thailand, Cambodia to exercise restraint in resolving conflict

BANGKOK, April 28 – The United States has urged Thailand and Cambodia to act with restraint in resolving the border dispute through peaceful means and negotiation.

US Ambassador to Thailand Kristie Anne Kenney met Thai Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva at Government House on Thursday morning.

She said after the meeting that the US will not intervene as the two countries are obliged to hold bilateral talks. The dispute can be handled by existing mechanisms facilitated by the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN).

The US envoy also called for the two countries to return to the negotiation table.

Meanwhile, Thai Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya said before leaving to attend the 5th Asean Socio-Cultural Community (ASCC) Council Meeting in Indonesia on Thursday that Thailand still adheres to proactive diplomatic approaches in responding to Cambodia.

Mr Kasit was due to meet Indonesian Foreign Minister Marty Natalegawa as Indonesia is ASEAN chair to discuss Thai-Cambodian dispute and progress in drafting agreement on a plan to station Indonesian observers at Thai-Cambodian border.

The Thai foreign minister will also meet Asean Secretary General Surin Pitsuwan.

In other developments, the sound of gunfire was reportedly heard throughout the night Wednesday until dawn Thursday morning at the Thai- Cambodian border in the northeastern province of Surin. (MCOT online news)

-- TNA 2011-04-28

[mrparanoid]

After the gunfire, Thai soldiers seized a 60-mm grenade launcher, ten 60-mm ammunition rounds, an RPG-2 grenade launcher, four rocket-propelled grenades and 100 rounds of M-80 machine gun ammunition.

If the Cambodians were Vietnamese they would have had the foresight to booby trap it so that the Thais would get a nasty surprise when they tried to do photo ops.

If the Cambodians were like the overwhelming vast majority of disciplined soldiers elsewhere, they never would have abandoned and leave their weapons and ammunition behind when they retreated.

That's a court-martial offense in many countries.

.

Tell that to the countless Thai soldiers who have not only left their weapons behind, but also surrendered to the Cambodian soldiers on many occasions since 2008. It has been all over the news and is well documented by numerous pictures from different news agencies.

Where is the proof anyway that the weapons seized were Cambodian? The Thai Tahan Pran uses many of these weapons. It could have been from one of the early clashes as well last week and if these are seized weapons it could be from some of the dead soldiers. But then again. We will never know.

[dumball]

This is precisely the true gist of the matter , Thai keep pussy-footing , yes we will , no we cannot , have to talk to this one or that one , the army will not allow ad nausium . They have been offered so many choices to at least stop the loss of lives , even by countries not directly involved in this conflict , considering Thai have a great deal of difficulty even fixing internal problems , what else can one truly expect from a bunch of ministers that do not respect each other .

[wintermute]

'geovalin' timestamp='1303965953' post='4386738']

This is precisely the true gist of the matter , Thai keep pussy-footing , yes we will , no we cannot , have to talk to this one or that one , the army will not allow ad nausium . They have been offered so many choices to at least stop the loss of lives , even by countries not directly involved in this conflict , considering Thai have a great deal of difficulty even fixing internal problems , what else can one truly expect from a bunch of ministers that do not respect each other .

The root of the matter here is that both sides are unscrupulous and are playing face games with each other. Not a single one of them is honest they are just jockeying to see what sort of concessions they can get out of it. This sort of thing can backfire if national sentiment gets inflamed. I can see it becoming a long grinding border war. This isn't something expats have to worry about because both sides are incompetent enough that the forces will just exhaust themselves without any real gain.

[Steely Dan]

They are just pretending to fight for whatever reason. If they really wanted to fight they would have done so already.

Certainly on a world scale this conflict scarcely registers, which supports the theory that it serves to further short term political goals on both sides of the border. This is not to say such brinkmanship is not dangerous, for instance a stray shell may accidentally hit a children's school causing multiple deaths and you quickly have a groundswell of anger where previously there was just frustration.

[Buchholz]

After the gunfire, Thai soldiers seized a 60-mm grenade launcher, ten 60-mm ammunition rounds, an RPG-2 grenade launcher, four rocket-propelled grenades and 100 rounds of M-80 machine gun ammunition.

If the Cambodians were Vietnamese they would have had the foresight to booby trap it so that the Thais would get a nasty surprise when they tried to do photo ops.

If the Cambodians were like the overwhelming vast majority of disciplined soldiers elsewhere, they never would have abandoned and leave their weapons and ammunition behind when they retreated.

That's a court-martial offense in many countries.

Tell that to the countless Thai soldiers who have not only left their weapons behind, but also surrendered to the Cambodian soldiers on many occasions since 2008. It has been all over the news and is well documented by numerous pictures from different news agencies.

It's unprofessional by any soldier that does so. Please provide examples of your assertions (the leaving weapons aspect, as surrendering is a wholly different issue).

.

Edited April 28, 2011 by Buchholz

[wintermute]

It's unprofessional by any soldier that does so. Please provide examples of your assertions (the leaving weapons aspect, as surrendering is a wholly different issue).

.

No one ever accused Cambodian or Thai soldiers of being actual professionals or disciplined to begin with.

[MegaMannow]

My girlfriend's family have had to leave home because of this stupid dispute, along with countless thousands.

This is all about 4.8sq kilometres and the Vihear Temple.

I'd be prepared to buy this land and pay each government 20 baht and allow access to all.

This is of course stupid, but so is this fighting!

Face! Face! Face!

The application of common sense is needed here, seemingly lacking on both sides!

How many more people have to die for what is a worthless piece of land?

Instead of soldiers, let's give each Prime minster a loaded pistol and let them fight it out

I dare say, under these circumstances, we would see a prompt resolution, probably by talking!!.

[elcent]

just try to analyze your quarrels/negotiations you have/had with your girlfriends/wifes. Pretty much the same motivations, accusations and pattern as in the conflict between the two nations.

I'll stay out of the mud-slinging.

This whole issue will be judged later when everything is over, maybe days, weeks, months or even years.

[webfact]

related topic

Ceasefire agreed after Thai and Cambodian military commanders meet : source

Follow this link:

[asiawatcher]

It would be a waste of time if it had not involved deaths. Now innocents from both sides are dying due to sheer stupidity of arrogant politicians playing mind games. They should all be instantly dismissed.

Edited April 28, 2011 by asiawatcher

[mrparanoid]

It's unprofessional by any soldier that does so. Please provide examples of your assertions (the leaving weapons aspect, as surrendering is a wholly different issue).

There are many accounts of Cambodian soldiers claiming this happened. (That Thai soldiers threw down their weapons and ran), but that isn't exactly proof, just like Thailand presenting some weapons and claiming they were seized from Cambodians is not proof. So no need to post links to those news reports as there is no proof it really happened.

This however would be a little difficult to deny :

An official handover of captured Thai weapons.

(Cambodia Commander Colonel Chea Sopha (L) offers weapons captured during fighting last week to Thai commander Colonel Than. Picture: Reuters)

News article from Brunei Times

This photo shows Thai weapons allegedly captured by Cambodians in October 2008.

But apart from these being the same weapons as the Thais use, there is no evidence that they were captured from retreating Thai soldiers or if the soldiers surrendered and then

handed over the weapons..

Captured Thai soldiers (There were reports in some news articles that they abandonded their weapons and ran, and were later captured, but this is not possible to prove. They might have surrendered and given up their weapons. We will never know for sure.)

Even after these pictures surfaced the Thais denied any soldiers had surrendered or been captured.

(Hor Namhong said 10 Thai soldiers had been captured by the Cambodian military, but the Thai military said none of its soldiers were missing, according to Reuters.)

Captured Thai soldiers. (or soldiers that have surrendered?)

Captured Thai soldiers (2008)

These 4 soldiers (under) were released during a Thai-Cambodian meeting in february 2011 after being "captured" by Cambodian soldiers. For all of us who were not there it will be impossible to prove whether the Thais retreated, leaving their weapons and were then captured, or if they surrendered. All we have is the news reports and the propaganda from both sides..

There are also plenty of incidents where Thai soldiers have abandoned their weapons in the demonstrations in Thailand last year as well. Pictures went all around the world showing red shirt demonstrators with army guns seized from the Thai military. I guess it depends on what you think "captured" means. Did they surrender, or were they captured? I don't know. The only incident where the Thais acknowledge they have abandonded their weapons would be in the official handover in the first picture.

[thaihome]

...This is all about 4.8sq kilometres and the Vihear Temple.

...

It’s about a lot more then just a temple or even face. Broaden you scope a bit and do a bit of research.

Try a google on “cambodian overlapping gas fields”. This is about making sure you negotiate from a position of strength. Hen Sen and son have done a very good job with the Preah Vinear incidents to strengthen their positions. Now they have moved on to other temples that are on the Thai side of the watershed.

TH

[barrybankruad]

'geovalin' timestamp='1303965953' post='4386738']

This is precisely the true gist of the matter , Thai keep pussy-footing , yes we will , no we cannot , have to talk to this one or that one , the army will not allow ad nausium . They have been offered so many choices to at least stop the loss of lives , even by countries not directly involved in this conflict , considering Thai have a great deal of difficulty even fixing internal problems , what else can one truly expect from a bunch of ministers that do not respect each other .

The root of the matter here is that both sides are unscrupulous and are playing face games with each other. Not a single one of them is honest they are just jockeying to see what sort of concessions they can get out of it. This sort of thing can backfire if national sentiment gets inflamed. I can see it becoming a long grinding border war. This isn't something expats have to worry about because both sides are incompetent enough that the forces will just exhaust themselves without any real gain.

NOT SOMETHING THAT EXPATS HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT/ You must be joking. It's all very well for you Bangkok lounge lizards living in you air conditioned condominiums but what about the farangs that live here and have to worry about the safety of their families and themselves Get real.

[jimbeam1]

Hello, must have dozed off! I thought they had decided on a ceasefire?

jb1

[Ricci]

US ambassador discusses border dispute with Abhisit

US ambassador to Thailand Kristie Kenney visited Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva Thursday morning to discuss the Thai-Cambodian clashes.

Speaking to reporters after the meeting at the Government House at 8 am, the ambassador said she discussed the border dispute with the prime minister.

She said the US has been a long-time friend of both Thailand and Cambodia and the US government wants to see the two neighbouring countries settle the dispute with a peaceful means.

Kenney said the US government regarded that the dispute was bilateral problem of the two countries so Bangkok and Phnom Penh should return to the negotiating table as soon as possible.

man....i would kill someone for THAT cable on wikileaks