Vegetarianism and Buddhism

[CuriousGeorge77]

I feel that 2 answers are necessary. First, I would answer that in the world of humans, where we are, literally, that that would be, to say the least, unpleasant. It makes sense to have injunctions against eating humans in modern society. i am culturally bound to find the idea repulsive - although there have been other cultures that do not share this idea, and there have been other instances where canabalism has saved lives. Is eating something that saves your life sin? If so, then the only proper thing to do is to kill ourselves now.

The real reason, though, I alluded to earlier in the thread with the Canyonlands story

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=1851653

What is your body except for a bunch of chemicals? When it gets into another organism, it remains the same thing. What are you? if someone eats you, what are they doing? What is really going on? Is your body more special than someone else's, fuindamentally? Certainly your 'attatched' to it, but if you are objective, then I would say no, there isn't anything fundamentally wrong with it. of course, killing people to eat them is another matter. Entirely disrespectful!

[Pepe']

If you see that you can be strong and healthy without killing and eating animals, why do it?

I am 56. Do the work of at least two people and look at least 10 years younger than my age.

And believe me I had more than my fare share of "wine, woman and song."

If more people had to slaughter and butcher their own animals before eating them, I guarantee there would be many more vegetarians.

I challenge you to try it and see. Start killing your own chickens, pigs and if you've got a chance

cows, monkeys, dogs, snakes?

Report back. I guarantee we'll see more vegetarians. Guaranteed.

Living at the expense and pain of innocent animals really can an should be avoided for the sake of ahimsa...

[CuriousGeorge77]

Simply for the sake of playing the Devil's advocate, but what makes animals innocent? If they did something to you (killed your mother, bit off your leg, peed on your blue suede shoes....), would that make a difference? What if they are painlessly killed?

[Plus]

You need to commit some kind of crime to become guilty, until then you are innocent. Mosquitoes attacking me are not innocent. The drew blood first.

[rockyysdt]

I challenge you to try it and see. Start killing your own chickens, pigs and if you've got a chance

cows, monkeys, dogs, snakes?

Report back. I guarantee we'll see more vegetarians. Guaranteed.

Living at the expense and pain of innocent animals really can an should be avoided for the sake of ahimsa...

Hi Pepe.

I'm one of those who would be horrified if I had to butcher my own meat. I could never do it.

Regarding diet though, I'm not totally sure.

I think that there are several body types in our gene pool and each can cope differently when it comes to diet.

I suspect some people may thrive on a non meat diet whilst others wouldn't do so well.

Many of us speak through personal experience and you appear to be one of those types who does well with a non meat diet.

Do you supplement it with eggs, fish, & dairy?

Others may not thrive as well eating the same foods as you do.

This is my only concern.

[bankei]

1 of the 227 rules for Theravada monks to observe: prohibition on consumption of 10 types of meat which are human, elephant, horse, snake, dog, lion, tiger, hyena, bear, leopard, no reason is provided. Many discussions why it must be this specific flesh, some gave the reason that they are big animal, elephant and horse are royal animals, some are about smell, etc. but no conclusion, just possibility of the reason.

Hi Virin

I believe this rule exists, but it is not in the Patimokha, (ie not one of the 227) but from the suttas - maybe Mahavagga.

Bankei

[Pepe']

Simply for the sake of playing the Devil's advocate, but what makes animals innocent? If they did something to you (killed your mother, bit off your leg, peed on your blue suede shoes....), would that make a difference? What if they are painlessly killed?

----------------------

It has been explained to me by my teachers. Animals do not make karma. They are here and in that kind of body to work off karma.

They are lower down on The "rung" of evolution and are gradually being promoted to the human form so they will have the chance to pursue self realization again...

[Pepe']

You need to commit some kind of crime to become guilty, until then you are innocent. Mosquitoes attacking me are not innocent. The drew blood first.

-----------------------

Interesting that you say that. There is an old saying I've heard for many years.

"Even the wise man and the monk rejoice at the killing of an insect that drinks blood or a poisoness snake."

[bankei]

Simple question is it ok to eat chicken,duck,goose etc eggs.

Yes.

[Pepe']

I challenge you to try it and see. Start killing your own chickens, pigs and if you've got a chance

cows, monkeys, dogs, snakes?

Report back. I guarantee we'll see more vegetarians. Guaranteed.

Living at the expense and pain of innocent animals really can an should be avoided for the sake of ahimsa...

Hi Pepe.

I'm one of those who would be horrified if I had to butcher my own meat. I could never do it.

Regarding diet though, I'm not totally sure.

I think that there are several body types in our gene pool and each can cope differently when it comes to diet.

I suspect some people may thrive on a non meat diet whilst others wouldn't do so well.

Many of us speak through personal experience and you appear to be one of those types who does well with a non meat diet.

Do you supplement it with eggs, fish, & dairy?

Others may not thrive as well eating the same foods as you do.

This is my only concern.

----------------

Three years ago I tried some different kinds of seafood in Pattaya while vacationing with my at the time wife and sister-in-law. I didn't like it.

I have eaten some eggs, rarely. when I felt very tired or "protein deficient", not sure if it helps or not but hey taste good and I think I feel stronger.

Dairy I love and am in a constant effort not to eat, but it's soooo good!

Reality, I teach clinical nutrition, it is a well established fact that any human can be healthy probably healthier on a vegi diet.

Definitely a multiplul Complex, 3000 mcgs or sublingual B12 and an occasional amino acid complex...

[sabaijai]

If you see that you can be strong and healthy without killing and eating animals, why do it?

I am 56. Do the work of at least two people and look at least 10 years younger than my age.

And believe me I had more than my fare share of "wine, woman and song."

If more people had to slaughter and butcher their own animals before eating them, I guarantee there would be many more vegetarians.

I challenge you to try it and see. Start killing your own chickens, pigs and if you've got a chance

cows, monkeys, dogs, snakes?

Report back. I guarantee we'll see more vegetarians. Guaranteed.

Living at the expense and pain of innocent animals really can an should be avoided for the sake of ahimsa...

It's not logical to assert 'if you can't kill the animals, you shouldn't eat meat killed by others'. It's like saying, 'if you can't fill your own teeth, you shouldn't have your teeth repaired.'

I don't do my own dentistry either. Or make my own belts and shoes.

[lannarebirth]

I also feel that many of those self-same arguments are just an extension of anthropomorphism. Vegetarianism vs eating animals breaks down into a matter ofdegree - how "far down the chain" is ok to eat? I don't really see the chain as such.

Your line of reasoning suggests to me that if one chooses to eat meat, then any kind of meat is acceptable, even human meat.

That's not the way I see it. I eat meat, but here in Thailand I've stopped eating pork. I stopped eating pork because in my estimation the life of a pig here is suffering from beginning to end. I don't have an anti meat argument, but I don't want to contribute to the needless suffering of other sentient beings.

[Brucenkhamen]

It's not logical to assert 'if you can't kill the animals, you shouldn't eat meat killed by others'. It's like saying, 'if you can't fill your own teeth, you shouldn't have your teeth repaired.'

I don't do my own dentistry either. Or make my own belts and shoes.

You're right, but I know if I had to be involved in the slaughtering process I couldn't do it, I'd become vegitarian for sure, which I think is the point.

[Brucenkhamen]

That's not the way I see it. I eat meat, but here in Thailand I've stopped eating pork. I stopped eating pork because in my estimation the life of a pig here is suffering from beginning to end. I don't have an anti meat argument, but I don't want to contribute to the needless suffering of other sentient beings.

I'm not sure chickens have it any better. Good on you for following your concience.

[rockyysdt]

Dairy I love and am in a constant effort not to eat, but it's soooo good!

Reality, I teach clinical nutrition, it is a well established fact that any human can be healthy probably healthier on a vegi diet.

Definitely a multiplul Complex, 3000 mcgs or sublingual B12 and an occasional amino acid complex...

What vegetarian food should those with intolerance/allergy to dairy and gluten eat to remain in balance, especially on retreat?

I suspect certain people have genetic prediposition to a "hunter gatherer" diet and thrive best on meat, fish, nuts, fruit, and greens.

I analysed diets eaten by groups like Hari Khrishna and understand they balance their vegetarian diet with gee (clarified butter), custard, lassi, and other dairy products.

If you remove dairy from their diet, it becomes severely deficient.

How would a dairy intolerant person cope with a deficient vegetarian diet, especially on retreat?

What vegetarian alternatives would they/could they be offered at a Thai retreat in order to remain healthy?

Are complex multi vitamins, and or complex amino acids derived from animals and therefore not vegetarian?

[jdinasia]

Has the order of Bhikkhuni arrived in Thailand?

Do you mean Mae Chi?

I do mean Mae Chi. Sorry, but I never realised that there was a difference.

There isn't any bhikkhuni in Thailand then ? Excuse my ignorance of the subject.

There are ordained nuns in Thailand from at least 2 sects. neither sect is part of the Thai Sangha.

[sabaijai]

How would a dairy intolerant person cope with a deficient vegetarian diet, especially on retreat?

What vegetarian alternatives would they/could they be offered at a Thai retreat in order to remain healthy?

Are complex multi vitamins, and or complex amino acids derived from animals and therefore not vegetarian?

I've rarely seen dairy products at Thai Buddhist retreats.

[Plus]

How would a dairy intolerant person cope with a deficient vegetarian diet, especially on retreat?

Maybe these people were not meant for retreats in the first place?

It's not very democratic, but not everyone has god given abilities to lead such a life. Vitamin deficiency is just one of a miriad of possible problems.

[rockyysdt]

I've rarely seen dairy products at Thai Buddhist retreats.

What do meals generally consist of at Thai Buddhist retreats?

Edited March 20, 2008 by rockyysdt

[Brucenkhamen]

I've rarely seen dairy products at Thai Buddhist retreats.

What do meals generally consist of at Thai Buddhist retreats?

Dairy products don't figure much in the Thai diet anyway, so hardly surprising you don't get them in retreats.

At Suan Mokh and Wat Kow Tahm it's vegetarian, brown rice, vege and tofu curries and stir fry. At Wat Ram Poeng you eat what the Thai's eat so salty fish, white rice etc. At Wat pah Nanachat there is a big variety to choose from. That's if things haven't changed in the 10years since I've been to these places.

If someone can't survive 10 days without dairy products they are a rare person indeed.

[jayhech]

They can eat but they cannot kill so they can eat. They are monks and have to accept whatever it is that's offered in their bowl. In the old days, rice and different types of food offered got mixed up in one bowl that made it look like leftover in doggy's bag and they had to eat it as received.

[Pepe']

If you see that you can be strong and healthy without killing and eating animals, why do it?

I am 56. Do the work of at least two people and look at least 10 years younger than my age.

And believe me I had more than my fare share of "wine, woman and song."

If more people had to slaughter and butcher their own animals before eating them, I guarantee there would be many more vegetarians.

I challenge you to try it and see. Start killing your own chickens, pigs and if you've got a chance

cows, monkeys, dogs, snakes?

Report back. I guarantee we'll see more vegetarians. Guaranteed.

Living at the expense and pain of innocent animals really can an should be avoided for the sake of ahimsa...

It's not logical to assert 'if you can't kill the animals, you shouldn't eat meat killed by others'. It's like saying, 'if you can't fill your own teeth, you shouldn't have your teeth repaired.'

I don't do my own dentistry either. Or make my own belts and shoes.

-------------------

Then it's "logical" if you want someone killed just get someone else to do it and then you have no connection, responsibility or karma correct?

[jdinasia]

Baa

Obviously SanDiego is far from the real world

try ordaining as an American Monk in Thailand. You will quickly tire of Pizza and McDonalds that get offered to you by benefactors/people that invite you to their homes.

[Pepe']

Baa

Obviously SanDiego is far from the real world

try ordaining as an American Monk in Thailand. You will quickly tire of Pizza and McDonalds that get offered to you by benefactors/people that invite you to their homes.

---------------------

Yes San Diego is one big sound stage.

Thailand is many small stages...

[sabaijai]

If you see that you can be strong and healthy without killing and eating animals, why do it?

I am 56. Do the work of at least two people and look at least 10 years younger than my age.

And believe me I had more than my fare share of "wine, woman and song."

If more people had to slaughter and butcher their own animals before eating them, I guarantee there would be many more vegetarians.

I challenge you to try it and see. Start killing your own chickens, pigs and if you've got a chance

cows, monkeys, dogs, snakes?

Report back. I guarantee we'll see more vegetarians. Guaranteed.

Living at the expense and pain of innocent animals really can an should be avoided for the sake of ahimsa...

It's not logical to assert 'if you can't kill the animals, you shouldn't eat meat killed by others'. It's like saying, 'if you can't fill your own teeth, you shouldn't have your teeth repaired.'

I don't do my own dentistry either. Or make my own belts and shoes.

-------------------

Then it's "logical" if you want someone killed just get someone else to do it and then you have no connection, responsibility or karma correct?

Not at all. Stick with my analogy. I don't want to perform dentistry but I want its benefits. I don't want to do my own butchery (for food), but I want to enjoy its benefits.

I don't harvest my own rice either. It's just work I'm not cut out for and am willing to pay others to do.

As for karma, I can find nothing in the Tipitaka that suggests that eating meat is akusala kamma.

[Pepe']

If you see that you can be strong and healthy without killing and eating animals, why do it?

I am 56. Do the work of at least two people and look at least 10 years younger than my age.

And believe me I had more than my fare share of "wine, woman and song."

If more people had to slaughter and butcher their own animals before eating them, I guarantee there would be many more vegetarians.

I challenge you to try it and see. Start killing your own chickens, pigs and if you've got a chance

cows, monkeys, dogs, snakes?

Report back. I guarantee we'll see more vegetarians. Guaranteed.

Living at the expense and pain of innocent animals really can an should be avoided for the sake of ahimsa...

It's not logical to assert 'if you can't kill the animals, you shouldn't eat meat killed by others'. It's like saying, 'if you can't fill your own teeth, you shouldn't have your teeth repaired.'

I don't do my own dentistry either. Or make my own belts and shoes.

-------------------

Then it's "logical" if you want someone killed just get someone else to do it and then you have no connection, responsibility or karma correct?

Not at all. Stick with my analogy. I don't want to perform dentistry but I want its benefits. I don't want to do my own butchery (for food), but I want to enjoy its benefits.

I don't harvest my own rice either. It's just work I'm not cut out for and am willing to pay others to do.

As for karma, I can find nothing in the Tipitaka that suggests that eating meat is akusala kamma.

--------------------

Then you should be good to go...

[rockyysdt]

Not at all. Stick with my analogy. I don't want to perform dentistry but I want its benefits. I don't want to do my own butchery (for food), but I want to enjoy its benefits.

I don't harvest my own rice either. It's just work I'm not cut out for and am willing to pay others to do.

As for karma, I can find nothing in the Tipitaka that suggests that eating meat is akusala kamma.

Hi sabaijai

Your analogy is some what flawed.

Performing dentistry, or harvesting rice don't involve buthering of live animals.

Butchering animals is quite a violent act.

Live pigs for example are slung upside down on conveyor belts with their necks exposed and can hear and smell the butchery occurring to their fellow pigs prior to their turn.

I do believe butchers who perform such acts become desensitised to slaughter. Desensitisation is contrary to the practice of contemplation which is all about increasing our awareness.

If one feels comfortable for others to perform butchery on their behalf, then perhaps they might be descensitised to this act or lack actual experience of such acts.

Maybe performing one's own butchery, at least once, could be a prerequisite, before progressing to having others slaughter for us. This would allow everyone to make informed decisions.

I know I would think twice if I had to kill.

Edited March 23, 2008 by rockyysdt

[Brucenkhamen]

Your analogy is some what flawed.

Performing dentistry, or harvesting rice don't involve buthering of live animals.

Butchering animals is quite a violent act.

Live pigs for example are slung upside down on conveyor belts with their necks exposed and can hear and smell the butchery occurring to their fellow pigs prior to their turn.

I do believe butchers who perform such acts become desensitised to slaughter. Desensitisation is contrary to the practice of contemplation which is all about increasing our awareness.

If one feels comfortable for others to perform butchery on their behalf, then perhaps they might be descensitised to this act or lack actual experience of such acts.

Maybe performing one's own butchery, at least once, could be a prerequisite, before progressing to having others slaughter for us. This would allow everyone to make informed decisions.

I know I would think twice if I had to kill.

I agree with you. I'm perfectly comfortable asking someone else to perform dentisty or grow rice on my behalf, I'm not so comfortable asking someone to butcher animals on my behalf, I'd be even less comfortable if I had to do it myself.

[Pepe']

Ahimsa = nonviolence...

[Plus]

Perhaps he's been desensetised.