Enough Is Enough

[cardholder]

Working with educated Thai's I find that many of the attitudes towards the way things are carried out are rather similar to western attitudes and these Thai's only differ slightly in their approach being less aggressive and often less open with their opinions.

Working with uneducated Thai's they are forced to take the Western, often safer approach to many applications, not because they choose to but because they have no choice. In this case I am sure they think we are idiots because there is always a simpler easier way to do something but the long term picture and safety is rarely factored in. In this circumstance the capacity to think outside one ‘box’ is certainly a major barrier.

Is the Western way of doing things better? I say it is, but in Thailand a slightly different approach may have to be taken to get this across. There is certainly a stubbornness that needs to be overcome before a Thai person would recognise the benefits of doing something a differently than he thinks he should. However, that could be said of a person of any intelligence from any nation .

There are many aspects where the Thai systems fail; safety, corruption, lack of law enforcement and lack of responsibility are the issues which stand out.

Thailand is a great place to live in spite of all this because in general the populace is inherently good natured, kind hearted and softly spoken. Recognising the negative aspects of society and life in Thailand does not represent any weakness on our behalf (as some have suggested) and it’s perhaps rather lame of the Thai Apologists to always draw this weak argument.

Suggesting that in some aspects Westerners methods are better is not knocking Thailand, many of my Thai friends recognise this difference and agree. However, along with them I also recognise that often the Thai way is less stressful in the short term. There is another thread running about forward thinking - Maybe there are links between these two topics....

One thing is for sure - 'Face' is certainly damaging to the development of this Nation. Even 'Not the Nation' (web based spoof new paper in Thailand) picked up on this with its 'Bumrungrad performs Thailands 1st face saving operation' topic....

Getting tired of Thailand for many may often mean getting fed up and tired of the B.S. associated with saving face.......

An excellent post. Clear and well-balanced.

I am one who believes that I can add value to the development of Thais. Equally, I have no desire to change or Westernise anybody and I also recognise that there are many things that I have learned from Thais.

The difficulty (for me) lies in communicating, or getting acceptance to, the fact that 'another' (Western?) way MAY be better. I think responsibility for that attitude is in early years indoctrination that everything Thai is wonderful. This is not the thread to harp on about the inadequacies of the Thai education system.

Worse than this (and perhaps a contributing factor) is when I see the 'Farang is always right' approach. Such arrogance is not condusive to the Thai's learning process.

The danger is that these discussions often degenerate in the Thai Apologists vs the Thai Bashers. Neither extreme is constructive.

[zzaa09]

So....what became of the OP? Run off already?

[personchester]

H

What I was indicating was that life in a village here in Isaan can be better for all. Have you ever lived in a small Thai village, if so you would understand.

The village that I live in is composed of 2 families. Each with about 12 people per family! Amongst those two families their is jealousy, and a lot of it!

Bill

Perhaps instead of leaving Thailand completely you would be better off finding a slightly larger, more open environment that would allow you more breathing and thinking space?

That would not be suitable for him, the fact that he is living in a small village in Isaan is indicative of a very dull and depressing life style and in order to deal with this he wanted some life activity, hence his intention to offer some novelistic culture to the local people in the village which was of course rejected and resulted in some sort of neighbourhood quarrels, given this position he should leave this rural area now and move into a large city in order to get a life, which is bound to change his current view on Thailand.

Moreover, farangs should not disregard their own culture in order to please Thais, the old rule "when in Rome do as the Romans "... is no longer applicable in foreign countries, thus Brits and other Westerners should keep this in mind.

As far as Brits are concerned do not forget .... Rule Britannia, Britannia Rule the waves, Britons never, never, never shall be slaves ...

Edited May 5, 2011 by personchester

[zzaa09]

H

What I was indicating was that life in a village here in Isaan can be better for all. Have you ever lived in a small Thai village, if so you would understand.

The village that I live in is composed of 2 families. Each with about 12 people per family! Amongst those two families their is jealousy, and a lot of it!

Bill

Perhaps instead of leaving Thailand completely you would be better off finding a slightly larger, more open environment that would allow you more breathing and thinking space?

That would not be suitable for him, the fact that he is living in a small village in Isaan is indicative of a very dull and depressing life style and in order to deal with this he wanted some life activity, hence his intention to offer some novelistic culture to the local people in the village which was of course rejected and resulted in some sort of neighbourhood quarrels, given this position he should leave this rural area now and move into a large city in order to get a life, which is bound to change his current view on Thailand.

Moreover, farangs should not disregard their own culture in order to please Thais, the old rule "when in Rome do as the Romans "... is no longer applicable in foreign countries, thus Brits and other Westerners should keep this in mind.

As far as Brits are concerned do not forget .... Rule Britannia, Britannia Rule the waves, Britons never, never, never shall be slaves ...

How quaint. Mr. Kipling would be blushing....

[personchester]

H

What I was indicating was that life in a village here in Isaan can be better for all. Have you ever lived in a small Thai village, if so you would understand.

The village that I live in is composed of 2 families. Each with about 12 people per family! Amongst those two families their is jealousy, and a lot of it!

Bill

Perhaps instead of leaving Thailand completely you would be better off finding a slightly larger, more open environment that would allow you more breathing and thinking space?

That would not be suitable for him, the fact that he is living in a small village in Isaan is indicative of a very dull and depressing life style and in order to deal with this he wanted some life activity, hence his intention to offer some novelistic culture to the local people in the village which was of course rejected and resulted in some sort of neighbourhood quarrels, given this position he should leave this rural area now and move into a large city in order to get a life, which is bound to change his current view on Thailand.

Moreover, farangs should not disregard their own culture in order to please Thais, the old rule "when in Rome do as the Romans "... is no longer applicable in foreign countries, thus Brits and other Westerners should keep this in mind.

As far as Brits are concerned do not forget .... Rule Britannia, Britannia Rule the waves, Britons never, never, never shall be slaves ...

How quaint. Mr. Kipling would be blushing....

Mr Kipling ... it is now a well known brand name owned by Rank Hovis McDonald for their patisserie section, and therefore the name "Mr Kipling" has become Britain's famous cake character.

In addition, there is of course Rudyard Kipling 1865-1936 a famous British poet, and this is no doubt the one you are referring to, and not the cake character.

Rudyard Kipling was born and did spend most of his time in Asia, and thus Westerners here, and in particular "Brits", should bear in mind his famous writing ... "The White Man's Burden".

[RueFang]

What I was indicating was that life in a village here in Isaan can be better for all. Have you ever lived in a small Thai village, if so you would understand.

Bill

RueFang nailed it.

He sure did.

That would be "She nailed it" Thanks

And Op, in 5 years of living in a village I've seen only about 6 farang, so I think I "understand" I'm definitely not on the 'everything Thai is perfect and wonderful' train, and have worked and lived and married a Thai, so I understand very well issues like short term thinking vs long term, but again I emphasise, it's just a different way of thinking, not better or worse.

[selftaopath]

Hey Bill,

I empathize with you immensely. The basic Thai culture is challenging to manyof us foreigners. It might be especiallydifficult for individuals who believe in honesty, fairness, consequences formis-deeds etc. – I’m one of these. Apartfrom not having rights because we are not Thai nationals it seems we don’t haverights as human beings either. Thai’s recognizing the rights of others in Lackof Sanctions (LOS) are not easy to see. Thai’sseem to claim they have many freedoms, but certainly without rights. Surefreedoms from consequences, freedom to be disruptive, freedom toovercharge/swindle, freedom to discriminate, freedom to act like Thai women’sonly purpose is to serve the Thai male. So yes I think I do understand some ofwhat you are feeling. This “save face” mentality is also so bizarre. Ah I couldgo on and on but I suspect you know all this. I think this country will gofurther down in international appeal/respect etc.

We’ve also had difficulties with one family in my wife’svillage. Even she emphasized how these people lack any social learning. Theirbehavior was so troubling I’m amazed we lived next to them for 6 month. Interestinghowever, others in the village KNOW what kind of people they are so I feelsomewhat vindicated that it’s not “only me.” As most of us Westerners living in Land of Scams, I too have numerous storiesdepicting the topics you mentioned. This is real and this certainly seems to bethe “Thai way.” I am no one of the “ifyou don’t like it leave” brigade. I haveno time for those types. Some things Ican change and some things I can not. I strongly guard personal boundaries,which is not widely accepted to Thai’s or perhaps Westerner’s either. J I won’t “step on your foot” and I don’twant you (figuratively speaking) to step on mine. Challenges abound, but I haveno immediate plans to leave. There surely are things enjoyable here, but it’snot an easy place to live for some of us.

Do you know where you are going next? My thought is to have a place, far removedfrom neighbors, and be somewhat self sufficient i.e. not needing various workersetc. My experience has been that if Iwant something fixed so it work after “fixing” I have better learn how to fixit otherwise it’s a “crap shoot.”

I’m fortunate that I found one of the few honest Thai womento be my partner. She really lives the Buddhist’s way.

[cardholder]

What I was indicating was that life in a village here in Isaan can be better for all. Have you ever lived in a small Thai village, if so you would understand.

Bill

RueFang nailed it.

He sure did.

That would be "She nailed it" Thanks

I imagine you were flattered that newtronbomb thought you were thinking like a bloke !

I did like your summary that the way of thinking etc was 'different' and not 'better or worse'.

I think the conflict comes in the fact that it is DIFFERENT (for both sides) and that can lead to misunderstand and frustration.

[jazzbo]

I'm fortunate that I found one of the few honest Thai womento be my partner. She really lives the Buddhist's way.

Honest? Icouldn'tlivewithawomanwhotookawaymyspacebar.

[surayu]

Once you understand the simple fact that Thais are not farang, don't think like farang and don't live like farang, you magically seem to fit in a whole lot better.

And once YOU find out, that helping someone else to achieve something in an easier way and improving their lifes as a comsequence of this, in the end is going to create a better world.

Everyone is a unique and precious element that can contribute in a way or another to the whole of society, many skilled people could really make a difference here, but they are forbidden by some of the craziest laws i have ever seen, denying this it's not going to help, or better say improve lifestyle for the majority of the people, as a little part of society in fact can benefit in keeping the masses poor and without access to a proper education, many people here have clearly expressed on which side they prefer to stay.....

[jazzbo]

many skilled people could really make a difference here, but they are forbidden by some of the craziest laws i have ever seen, denying this it's not going to help,

A few years back after many KFC stores were set afire in India, some high-level government person said (in effect) "We welcome people to come to India for technology transfer ... we already know how to make fried chicken."

If you are a truly skilled person with proper credentials it is possible in many circumstances to work out an arrangement ... the 'expert extension' under the present guidelines does not allow one to self-proclaim that 'I am an expert at ...' or the 'I'm a swell fella' exemption to work permit.

Edited May 6, 2011 by jazzbo

[Squigy]

Hey Bill,

I empathize with you immensely. The basic Thai culture is challenging to manyof us foreigners. It might be especiallydifficult for individuals who believe in honesty, fairness, consequences formis-deeds etc. – I'm one of these. Apartfrom not having rights because we are not Thai nationals it seems we don't haverights as human beings either. Thai's recognizing the rights of others in Lackof Sanctions (LOS) are not easy to see. Thai'sseem to claim they have many freedoms, but certainly without rights. Surefreedoms from consequences, freedom to be disruptive, freedom toovercharge/swindle, freedom to discriminate, freedom to act like Thai women'sonly purpose is to serve the Thai male. So yes I think I do understand some ofwhat you are feeling. This "save face" mentality is also so bizarre. Ah I couldgo on and on but I suspect you know all this. I think this country will gofurther down in international appeal/respect etc.

We've also had difficulties with one family in my wife'svillage. Even she emphasized how these people lack any social learning. Theirbehavior was so troubling I'm amazed we lived next to them for 6 month. Interestinghowever, others in the village KNOW what kind of people they are so I feelsomewhat vindicated that it's not "only me." As most of us Westerners living in Land of Scams, I too have numerous storiesdepicting the topics you mentioned. This is real and this certainly seems to bethe "Thai way." I am no one of the "ifyou don't like it leave" brigade. I haveno time for those types. Some things Ican change and some things I can not. I strongly guard personal boundaries,which is not widely accepted to Thai's or perhaps Westerner's either. J I won't "step on your foot" and I don'twant you (figuratively speaking) to step on mine. Challenges abound, but I haveno immediate plans to leave. There surely are things enjoyable here, but it'snot an easy place to live for some of us.

Do you know where you are going next? My thought is to have a place, far removedfrom neighbors, and be somewhat self sufficient i.e. not needing various workersetc. My experience has been that if Iwant something fixed so it work after "fixing" I have better learn how to fixit otherwise it's a "crap shoot."

I'm fortunate that I found one of the few honest Thai womento be my partner. She really lives the Buddhist's way.

I have about one month to work out which direction I will head of into. I have similar thoughts as your own.. to be without neighbors.. and I am aware of such a place.

I am a sea loving person and maybe that is part of the problem for me living in Isaan. I have been away from the sea for too long and have a longing to just walking along a secluded beach for hours on end, fishing,diving,sailing and surfing are on my list of priorities. Little or no authorities around telling you what you should be doing or should not be doing.

Yes that is most likely the direction I will be heading.. "sitting in a waiting room until my number is called"!!

As I said in my original posting I have enjoyed Thailand, but the time has come to leave and get back to things I like in life and not be told by others what I should be doing in life.

In my honest opinion the majority of rural Thailand's thinking will advance no further than what you have today. Rural Thailand needs a massive shift in education to come up to the standards of other SE Asian countries.

I do not see that happening in the village where I am ever. The kids get drunk at 7 or 8 are having "sex" at the same age when they get a little older around the 13 to 14 age group the will enter the world of local drugs along with alcohol just about every day ... exactly the way there for-bearers behaved and of course the cycle will continue with there kids. Nope not much hope around this way for a better educated life and a break in that cycle.

I have tried to make improvements but I am just pushing shit up hill and wasting my time.

Cheers

Bill

[trisailer]

Rural Thailand is just fine with or without you. If you go to anyplace on earth with the attitude you have I guarantee you you will get the same result.

The problem is with you.

I do agree that you would probably be better off in a large city where you will not be living under the microscope. Your comments make me wonder why you chose to live in a village in the first place. You have to learn to adapt to them not the other way around.

[isanbirder]

Rural Thailand is just fine with or without you. If you go to anyplace on earth with the attitude you have I guarantee you you will get the same result.

The problem is with you.

I do agree that you would probably be better off in a large city where you will not be living under the microscope. Your comments make me wonder why you chose to live in a village in the first place. You have to learn to adapt to them not the other way around.

I think this is true wherever you live. I've lived in cities all my life until the last three years when I've been in Isan in a small village. Yes, I find some of their ways a bit odd. Yes, they find my ways a bit odd too. But we live and let live... and I'm as happy here as I was in the cities. Of course there are things I miss, but there are gains too.

I said on another thread, If you live in a village, just be yourself.... but I'm afraid a lot of people simply don't like living with themselves; they prefer a lot of noise and distraction and activities around them so that they don't have to look at themselves too closely.

This is just a general reflection, not aimed at any particular poster!

[zzaa09]

I'm fortunate that I found one of the few honest Thai womento be my partner. She really lives the Buddhist's way.

...."the few"? Aside from blind stereotypes and lack of broader exposure, I might suggest that 95% of Thai females belong to this honest-good girl class.

[zzaa09]

Rural Thailand is just fine with or without you. If you go to anyplace on earth with the attitude you have I guarantee you you will get the same result.

The problem is with you.

I do agree that you would probably be better off in a large city where you will not be living under the microscope. Your comments make me wonder why you chose to live in a village in the first place. You have to learn to adapt to them not the other way around.

I've been speaking of this forever. Locale and living situation has nothing to do with discontent, boredom, angst, etc. These are fabrications of the individual....and such to adjust {or not} themselves.

[zzaa09]

The problem is with you.

.... but I'm afraid a lot of people simply don't like living with themselves; they prefer a lot of noise and distraction and activities around them so that they don't have to look at themselves too closely.

:jap:

[surayu]

I might suggest that 95% of Thai females belong to this honest-good girl class.

I always thought that the good ones were 99,9999% and the only bad one was the same woman going around again and again, but is also known that she's not really a thai and was an illegal immigrant instead

[zzaa09]

I might suggest that 95% of Thai females belong to this honest-good girl class.

I always thought that the good ones were 99,9999% and the only bad one was the same woman going around again and again, but is also known that she's not really a thai and was an illegal immigrant instead

Exposure and experience are your most important learning tools.

[sarahsbloke]

Once you understand the simple fact that Thais are not farang, don't think like farang and don't live like farang, you magically seem to fit in a whole lot better.

And once YOU find out, that helping someone else to achieve something in an easier way and improving their lifes as a comsequence of this, in the end is going to create a better world.

That's worked very well in the West, nuclear weapons, banking disaster, international terrorism, world wars, ethnic cleansing, etc.

There is a lot to be said for a primitive agricultural society. So sad that many of those who come from the west can't fit in, then insist on trying to 'improve it'.

What I never understand, is why those who feel this way, just don't move to a country that suits them in the first place (or is it just me that thinks that they would be out of place anywhere in the world)..

Edited May 7, 2011 by sarahsbloke

[zzaa09]

There is a lot to be said for a primitive agricultural society. So sad that many of those who come from the west can't fit in, then insist on trying to 'improve it'.

What I never understand, is why those who feel this way, just don't move to a country that suits them in the first place (or is it just me that thinks that they would be out of place anywhere in the world)..

Perhaps the faint hint of colonialists DNA still runs it course.

One needs only to absorb a Western-centred historical interpretation of how things are.

[elwood]

I'm fortunate that I found one of the few honest Thai womento be my partner. She really lives the Buddhist's way.

...."the few"? Aside from blind stereotypes and lack of broader exposure, I might suggest that 95% of Thai females belong to this honest-good girl class.

zz..

Judged by his previous posts, actually conceding that there are a "few" honest Thai women, is probably the nicest thing this man has said about Thailand and the Thais.

Elwood

[sarahsbloke]

I'm fortunate that I found one of the few honest Thai womento be my partner. She really lives the Buddhist's way.

...."the few"? Aside from blind stereotypes and lack of broader exposure, I might suggest that 95% of Thai females belong to this honest-good girl class.

zz..

Judged by his previous posts, actually conceding that there are a "few" honest Thai women, is probably the nicest thing this man has said about Thailand and the Thais.

Elwood

I think it is very wrong (in a racist sort of wrong) to pick on Thai women as dishonest.

[kdc1899]

Most educated and/or motivated Thais understand that the other 95% are the foundation of the wealth and power of the 5%ers.

Uneducated, unmotivated, face saving, royal loving, not interested in the temporal, Buddhists, are the staple of the convoluted concoction that keeps the 5%ers where they are and the other 95% where the 5%ers believe they belong.

This is there culture.

It has always been this way and always will>

If you are a "tell them how to change" farang

or

a "want to help them but not tell them how to live" farang

you're

both wrong.

MYOB

J

M

H

O

[Patronus]

I'm fortunate that I found one of the few honest Thai womento be my partner. She really lives the Buddhist's way.

...."the few"? Aside from blind stereotypes and lack of broader exposure, I might suggest that 95% of Thai females belong to this honest-good girl class.

zz..

Judged by his previous posts, actually conceding that there are a "few" honest Thai women, is probably the nicest thing this man has said about Thailand and the Thais.

Elwood

I think it is very wrong (in a racist sort of wrong) to pick on Thai women as dishonest.

It's a Thai forum !!

Would '(some/x% of) women in Thailand are dishonest' appease you ?

[zzaa09]

It's a Thai forum !!

Would '(some/x% of) women in Thailand are dishonest' appease you ?

Yes, it is a Thai forum. What a perfect conduit for those that find a critique towards every aspect of Thai society and their interaction thereof. More often than not, the punditry tends to be exaggerated to the extreme while the angst of inferior judgement takes it's toll unjustified. Observe any such Thai/Asian expat forum.....the themes are harmonious.

[isanbirder]

It's a Thai forum !!

Would '(some/x% of) women in Thailand are dishonest' appease you ?

Yes, it is a Thai forum. What a perfect conduit for those that find a critique towards every aspect of Thai society and their interaction thereof. More often than not, the punditry tends to be exaggerated to the extreme while the angst of inferior judgement takes it's toll unjustified. Observe any such Thai/Asian expat forum.....the themes are harmonious.

Harmonious? As in my boom lorry?

[onionluke]

It's a Thai forum !!

Would '(some/x% of) women in Thailand are dishonest' appease you ?

Yes, it is a Thai forum. What a perfect conduit for those that find a critique towards every aspect of Thai society and their interaction thereof. More often than not, the punditry tends to be exaggerated to the extreme while the angst of inferior judgement takes it's toll unjustified. Observe any such Thai/Asian expat forum.....the themes are harmonious.

Harmonious? As in my boom lorry?

Boing boing boing boing boing boing .

[wandrinstar]

Not much difference here than in England,its full of Asians,only here they dont moan so much,I love Thailand,they dont let all the riff raff in,30 years of happiness here,but some try to change things,and fail,then nock the system.Were Guests remember,those in the U.K. should realise they are Guests too.

[ESB7]

We Farang are really not wanted at all in Thailand, Thai's in the main are really only after our money.

Bill, has it really taken 5 years to realise this ?

I am not being critical but understanding our 'position' in Thai society is one of the fundamentals.

As far as 'contributing to society' is concerned, I would be interested to know what you would like to achieve in this regard.

I fear you may have set yourself too difficult a task.

Jezz,

No I found out the money bit early in the peace, I just thought that Thai's might have had a little bit of sense and realized that I was not about money. I did not mind at all to help out around the village in all aspects of village life.

I wished to contribute to the education of the villager's along with helping out at the local hospital, but alas I was always declined even though I had the correct qualifications for the job. I was quick to understand when I arrived that I could help these kids into a better life. But no no, I could not do that once again for the sake of "face"

It was all about "face". The Thai people did not like to have a Farang instructing them on better way's of doing things. Jealousy came into the picture on every turn in all events and the Thai people would not hesitate to dob you into the authorities all for the sake of "face".

Bill

Other side of the coin.............would a doctor or teacher in Europe 50 years ago allowed someone from the other side of the world into their school/hospitol to work???as that person obviously thinks they can offer something better than is already in practice............maybe there lies the problem, it seems to me you have the impression that you are superior than the locals........there are plenty of voluntary organisations or teaching posistions that you could apply for...'being corrected qualified' as you said you are....... why not try that,