Immigration Arrests 31 Foreigners For Gem Trade

[george]

Gem trade group seeks clear rules on foreigners

BANGKOK: -- The Thai Gems and Jewellery Manufacturers Association has urged the government to issue a clear policy on foreign traders who come to Thailand to purchase cut precious stones, according to president Chirakitti Tangkatat. The Immigration Police Bureau arrested 31 foreigners from India, Pakistan, Iran, Indonesia and the US at a gem-trading market in Chanthaburi last Friday on grounds of buying and selling in Thailand without work permits.

An industry source said seven of the foreigners were later released without any charge because they had already held work permits to do business in Thailand while the rest were released on bail. However, none of them was deported.

The source claimed the police had prodded them into confessing that they had conducted both buying and selling activities in Thailand. In fact, he said, the foreign traders purchased cut gemstones from Chanthaburi in order to sell them in their countries and thus did not conduct any illegal activity as charged.

The association yesterday issued a letter urging the prime minister to guarantee that no such action would be taken against foreign traders again and asked him to investigate the incident.

Mr Chirakitti said in the letter that the incident had created confusion and mistrust of the government's free trade policy.

''Some foreigners had just come to do business in Thailand for the first time and were put behind bars for two nights in Chanthaburi and one night in Bangkok. They were treated like criminals. This will create a negative image for Thailand,'' the letter noted.

Mr Chirakitti said Chanthaburi had been known the world over for half a century as a gem-trading centre where direct business could be conducted between small gem cutters and foreign traders. The market in the eastern province provides an alternative to small traders who do not want to deal with major traders in Chanthaburi or Bangkok.

''The practice of government officials has undermined the country's economy and the Thai gems and jewellery industry,'' the letter said.

The association said it was looking forward to a clarification as soon as possible so it could brief customers abroad before they moved their business elsewhere.

Sabahat Ellahi, the president of the Thai-Pakistan Chamber of Commerce, said the government should have a clear and simple regulation on this trade practice and give the business community advance notice of any adjustments before putting them into effect.

Related associations and embassies should also be informed of any new rules so traders coming to Thailand can follow the procedures properly, he said.

However, Mr Ellahi is not in favour of foreigners on tourist visas doing business. They should instead get a non-immigrant visa that allows them to do business in Thailand, he said.

--Bangkok Post 2005-10-05

[stoneman]

As I understand it, using this line of logic, any foreign buyer that comes to Thailand for a trade show or to work with manufacturers without a work permit or a "B" visa, is breaking the law and subject to arrest...

I came to Thailand 6 times a year for over 20 years to buy and place orders and inspect merchandise prior to shipment And I always got a 30 day tourist visa at the airport and I know many many guys doing the same thing...

I hope common sense prevails...If the guys in the Brown suits start making arrests at the next jewelry show in March, could be interesting...

Maybe I just mis-read the article....

Stoneman

[ovenman]

I hope common sense prevails...If the guys in the Brown suits start making arrests at the next jewelry show in March, could be interesting...

That would be a hoot, eh?

I don't get the impression from anything I have read in the past that imnmigrations makes it a point to actively go out and pursue this sort of stuff. As you point out, they could go to any trade show and probably arrest the majority of foreigners in attendance on some such immigrations violation. It's more likely that some ahem, competitive business interest, filed a complaint against these gem traders and immigrations was compelled to follow it up.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

The 30 day permit is a guaranteed lockup and deportation if sprung

[bossman]

You would think with the way the Thai economy is that they'd be eager to have foreign merchants come in to buy. Instead they're trotting out antiquated "work permit" rules to scare all the foreign money away. Good going there. I don't know what the goal of this strategy is but it seems mighty stupid. Foreigners would rather do business in places without draconian visa rules or retarded roadblocks set up to deter capitalism.

[Firefan]

I just bought 6 cans of Singha that I plan to bring back to Scandinavia planning to give them away but might even sell them for a PROFIT (not that THAT matters - even if I give them away I am "doing work").

I am probably in deep trouble now....

Cheers!

[Sphere]

I just bought 6 cans of Singha that I plan to bring back to Scandinavia planning to give them away but might even sell them for a PROFIT (not that THAT matters - even if I give them away I am "doing work").

I am probably in deep trouble now....

Cheers!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You sure are if you're buying Singha instead of Chang....

[ovenman]

You would think with the way the Thai economy is that they'd be eager to have foreign merchants come in to buy. Instead they're trotting out antiquated "work permit" rules to scare all the foreign money away.

That's the bureaucracy hard at work. One or more government agencies may be doing all they can to promote foreigners to come to Thailand and trade in gemstones while another agency has erected roadblocks that makes doing so difficult or arduous. There are countless examples of government agencies being at cross-purposes.

On the other hand, as I stated above, I think that something else is going on in this particular situation that reeks of some other party harbouring a grudge.

[Abandon]

As I understand it, using this line of logic, any foreign buyer that comes to Thailand for a trade show or to work with manufacturers without a work permit or a "B" visa, is breaking the law and subject to arrest...

I came to Thailand 6 times a year for over 20 years to buy and place orders and  inspect merchandise prior to shipment  And I always got a 30 day tourist visa at the airport and I know many many guys doing the same thing...

I hope common sense prevails...If the guys in the Brown suits start making arrests at the next jewelry show in March, could be interesting...

Maybe I just mis-read the article....

Stoneman

[Foggy Bottom]

3 years ago, Thaksin said Thailand was going to be the gem & jewellery hub of Asia

Looks more like it's going to be the arrest and deport hub

......... it's been well on it's way to that for at least the last four and a half years (since TRT came to power).

[Pink Mist]

This aint the place to vent your spleen about the PM mate we all know how it workks here

[george]

My interpretation of the rules:

The Immigration rules are quite clear here: You need a Non-Immigrant "B" visa in order to conduct business in Thailand. Tourists "TR" or 30-days stamp on arrival "TR30" are not supposed to conduct business here.

[h90]

definitly you are in troubles now. But I tell you something.

I have a WP and a licence to destroy Singha.

So for a small fee, say 500 Baht per can, I am willing to destroy these 6 Singha for you.

what do you think about that offer?

I just bought 6 cans of Singha that I plan to bring back to Scandinavia planning to give them away but might even sell them for a PROFIT (not that THAT matters - even if I give them away I am "doing work").

I am probably in deep trouble now....

Cheers!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[barryofthailand]

If you conduct bussiness in Thailand you must have a work permit. Therefore if you are purchasing gems to sell in your own country, you are conducting bussiness in Thailand.

Barry

[aqua4]

Well if it goes wide spread it will have a knock on effect on the clothing industry. I know of many people who come just to buy clothing. If you had to tell them to get a "B" visa they will move onto China as they are already cheaper. Bottom line is you either want the money or not!

3 of my friends arrive 2-3 times a month just to ship out their clothing. The other one ships out 1-2 containers a month of fabric. However their margins are comming under pressure and China is looking more attractive at the moment.

So who knows. This crack down might just push some people over to the next market. Who looses out, factories, hotels, resturants, taxis and basically all! So go ahead demand work permits and "B" visas, they would just end up hurting themselves.

[~G~]

If you conduct bussiness in Thailand you must have a work permit. Therefore if you are purchasing gems to sell in your own country, you are conducting bussiness in Thailand.

Barry

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So do you expect all those trade visitors in BITEC, IMPACT, Sirigit, to line up in the Labour Department and apply for work permits first? I assume they should all set up 2M baht Thai companies or find an employer with 2M capital for each of them?

[ovenman]

If you conduct bussiness in Thailand you must have a work permit.

If one visits Thailand to attend a trade show, that could also be construed as work by the broad definition of the Thai law that decribes work. Therefore, all foreigners attending trade shows in Thailand should also have work permits...

Bottom line is that the if the Thai government ever decided that it was going to enforce these laws evenly, as written, across-the-board, it would be shooting itself in the collective foot. Many of the grandiose hub-of-the-week plans would be more doomed than they already are.

[~G~]

My interpretation of the rules:

The Immigration rules are quite clear here: You need a Non-Immigrant "B" visa in order to conduct business in Thailand. Tourists "TR" or 30-days stamp on arrival "TR30" are not supposed to conduct business here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe visas or work permits were not the point here, the article mentioned that even those with Work Permits were arrested (foreigner holding a 1,000 baht bill - auto arrest?).

MHO? just some decent members of the police wishing to give a nice present to the mia noi. Why should a Work permit deny an honest man from his extra cash?

[clbelljr]

It is a known flaw in the legal system in Thailand that any foreign visitor doing business with Thai companies needs a Work Permit. Forget the non-immigrant Visa as it does not give you a work permit.

I have been to Thailand many times as a Consultant working at Thai factories. I never had a Work permit and the companies told me I didn't need one. The Thai companies do not want the extra hassle - and it is a discusting hassle - to get a Work permit for foreign workers.

This latest change in behavior will cause many foreign Workers to forget Thailand. I have decided recently that except for holidays Thailand is taboo.

[kandt]

Thanks God, the number of stupid comments remain equal from subject to subject.

Thanks God for George, who remains the focal point of common sense.

Cheers........kandt

[kidtongue]

If you conduct bussiness in Thailand you must have a work permit.

If one visits Thailand to attend a trade show, that could also be construed as work by the broad definition of the Thai law that decribes work. Therefore, all foreigners attending trade shows in Thailand should also have work permits...

Bottom line is that the if the Thai government ever decided that it was going to enforce these laws evenly, as written, across-the-board, it would be shooting itself in the collective foot. Many of the grandiose hub-of-the-week plans would be more doomed than they already are.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This will probably depend on who the trade show is sponsored by and who's axle is getting greased. Personally I favor arresting the tourists who even think about opening a business in Thailand (on the odd notion that planning is work). But we can make this an efficient model by just stopping the planes in the country of origination and demanding that all passengers pay the fines and plead guilty in advance. Doubtless the local Thai Embassy would be ready to assist.

[NextStationBangkok]

Look like all the tourists will be jailed soon for shopping in Thailand ?Toxin is digging grave for Tourism.

Edited October 5, 2005 by NextStationBangkok

[RickFarang]

So...it looks like my fiend who was just here on vacation, but checked his office email from his hotel room could be arrested and maybe fined and deported if he was ever caught.

We wouldn't want people coming over her and comitting that kind of crime. Spread the word.

[ovenman]

One don't even necessarily win in this situation with a work permit. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't a work permit specify the place where one can conduct work?

Example: I want to open OvenMan GemTraders with its office somewhere in Bangkok. I go through all the rigamarole of registering the company, paid-in capital, x number of Thai employees, blah, blah, blah. I apply for, and am granted, a work permit for myself. The work permit specifies my place of business as being my office in Bangkok. I attend some new gem show in Nakhon Nowhere, conduct some trade and am unfortunately busted in an immigrations sweep for working at a location other than that which is specified on my work permit.

Think this is a ludicrous made-up scenario? Think again. This actually happened a few years back to some foreign journalists who were attending a press conference (I believe). They weren't working at the place of business stated on their work permits (newspaper/magazine office). I believe this was settled quietly and in a friendly manner but it's a good example of the government using a difficult-to-follow, probably out-of-date, law to show everybody who is boss.

The point I am trying to make is that I feel the anachronistic laws remain as such for two reasons: 1) the powers-that-be simply cannot be bothered to update them to reflect the current business environment (i.e. good ol' governmental inertia); 2) the powers-that-be like the laws just as they are. The laws as written are handy for the inevitable crackdown that will be ordered from time to time.

[samran]

Thanks God, the number of stupid comments remain equal from subject to subject.

Thanks God for George, who remains the focal point of common sense.

Cheers........kandt 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

this and bargirl topics tend to get the most irrational comments. Personally I think the respondants to these posts are themselves here 'illegally' so to speak

[~G~]

One don't even necessarily win in this situation with a work permit.  Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't a work permit specify the place where one can conduct work? 

Example: I want to open OvenMan GemTraders with its office somewhere in Bangkok. I go through all the rigamarole of registering the company, paid-in capital, x number of Thai employees, blah, blah, blah.  I apply for, and am granted, a work permit for myself.  The work permit specifies my place of business as being my office in Bangkok.  I attend some new gem show in Nakhon Nowhere, conduct some trade and am unfortunately busted in an immigrations sweep for working at a location other than that which is specified on my work permit.

Think this is a ludicrous made-up scenario?  Think again.  This actually happened a few years back to some foreign journalists who were attending a press conference (I believe).  They weren't working at the place of business stated on their work permits (newspaper/magazine office).  I believe this was settled quietly and in a friendly manner but it's a good example of the government using a difficult-to-follow, probably out-of-date, law to show everybody who is boss.

The point I am trying to make is that I feel the anachronistic laws remain as such for two reasons: 1) the powers-that-be simply cannot be bothered to update them to reflect the current business environment (i.e. good ol' governmental inertia); 2) the powers-that-be like the laws just as they are.  The laws as written are handy for the inevitable crackdown that will be ordered from time to time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The funny thing is that sometimes foreigners become themselves part of this chaotic "law enforcement" - like that guy in the Business forum who sent the SET a complaint a few weeks ago, about a member who was discussing Stock Trading, while he did not posses a SET broker license or something of that kind

[Potato]

MMM Plenty of Farrang,with plenty of money,maybe quite naive of local law.

Boys in Brown looking for a fast buck ?

[ayakiawe]

he is such a jerk they need a special thread dedicated for this low life form

[ovenman]

he is such a jerk they need a special thread dedicated for this low life form

Say what???

[Artisan]

I just bought 6 cans of Singha that I plan to bring back to Scandinavia planning to give them away but might even sell them for a PROFIT (not that THAT matters - even if I give them away I am "doing work").

I am probably in deep trouble now....

Cheers!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You sure are if you're buying Singha instead of Chang....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Try "Red Horse" from the local San Miguel brewery....it's even stronger than Chang!!!