Rubber Trees

[David006]

What kinds of acid or vinegar do y'all use on your farms? tried different ones?

Glenn,

we were recommended white vinegar, so went out and bought 5 x 4 .5 litre plastic cans of the stuff at 50 baht each. Disapointed, too weak and too slow, even upping the concentration markedly. Gone back to proper formic at 270 baht for a 5 litre plastic can. Has a red star on the label and funnily enough is called Red Star Nam Got. There are a couple of other well known brands sold locally (Bat - in a blue can and another one i forget) for similar money, but we stick with what we know, and like. Neat formic is not dangerous and will not burn you, unlike sulphuric which definetely will, and is nasty shit. That stuff they sell in brown glass bottles for 15-20 baht is straight sulphuric acid and is NASTY shit. Keep it well away from your trees, hands, eyes and nether regions. Highly unrecommended for wet cup and the long term health of your trees. Have you seen what that stuff does to concrete?!!

Mike.

Wife makes some obviously acidic liquid for adding to cups ....fruit skins & leafs in a bucket of water...will ask her what they are..seems effective when she forgets or runs out of acid..

..I sometimes run around, when it looks like rain or is raining, with an old water bottle with a few holes in the top giving a squirt..skins over/congeals latex by the time I walk on a dozen trees.

[scotbeve]

Jim,

never heard that before - putting formic in BEFORE tapping. I understood that the panel does'nt even like the smell of the stuff, the drips start slowing as soon as the formic is around, and generally wo'nt produce as much per cut. Up here, everyone who does wet cup; cuts/ waits (in an ideal situation ie it aint gonna pour down soon) till the cut has stopped "bleeding"/ pours in the mixed formic (not sulphuric) and swills/stirs around. I do it myself on the 500 trees the missus cuts to help her out. By the time i've done 3 trees, the first is pretty much congealed and does'nt even move, even turned upside down. I know others (Thai smallholders) who will put in a weak mix or so much, that it takes an hour to go off, but they trying to get their water content right up and diddle the buyers.

A couple of the bigger landowners around here have said they are going over to sheet next month once the rains have cleared, these are people who can afford to keep it a couple of months and hopefully sell at a higher price later. Their tappers are also fortunate enough to be able to hang on and wait for the money.

Unlike me at the moment, i need it fortnightly or at worst, monthly

Regards,

Mike.

Yep Jim. 15 - 18% acid, 18 - 24% ammonia, and some have used "hi-teur" bleach (not a good idea IMHO) but all AFTER cup is at it's normal level / been dripping or flowing for some time. I've liked the results with formic.

[glennb6]

Scot,

"Yep Jim. 15 - 18% acid, 18 - 24% ammonia, and some have used "hi-teur" bleach (not a good idea IMHO) but all AFTER cup is at it's normal level / been dripping or flowing for some time. I've liked the results with formic."

Not understand this one... acid and ammonia are opposites right? Shouldn't a mix just cancel each other out?

[jamescollister]

Think we have a miss understanding here, don't think I said formic acid, just acid. No idea what it is, but they call it organic acid.

We don't use it everyday just when you know the rain is coming, but you have time to start tapping. Not one of my to do's to go and watch when the rain is coming. As I said you don't get much, but it keep food on the table for the tappers and us. Jim

[gregj69]

Think we have a miss understanding here, don't think I said formic acid, just acid. No idea what it is, but they call it organic acid.

We don't use it everyday just when you know the rain is coming, but you have time to start tapping. Not one of my to do's to go and watch when the rain is coming. As I said you don't get much, but it keep food on the table for the tappers and us. Jim

Now I'm really confused too. Is it right that you are putting some acid in the cups before tapping if you think it will rain? If you are using vinegar type acid maybe it is a more concentrated form of acetic acid (white viegar is mostly just a weak solution of that); if you are using suphuric what concentration.

Cheers

Greg

[jamescollister]

Think we have a miss understanding here, don't think I said formic acid, just acid. No idea what it is, but they call it organic acid.

We don't use it everyday just when you know the rain is coming, but you have time to start tapping. Not one of my to do's to go and watch when the rain is coming. As I said you don't get much, but it keep food on the table for the tappers and us. Jim

Now I'm really confused too. Is it right that you are putting some acid in the cups before tapping if you think it will rain? If you are using vinegar type acid maybe it is a more concentrated form of acetic acid (white viegar is mostly just a weak solution of that); if you are using suphuric what concentration.

Cheers

Greg

No idea what the stuff is, they call it organic acid, not very strong by the smell of it. It seems to just congeal the latex a bit and when the rains hit and fill the cups to overflow the latex that's there remains. Will try and find out more, but as I said not a thing we do all the time, better to tap in the day time if the rain has stopped. Jim

[jamescollister]

May be a bit of light in the tunnel.

Thai USS3 Rubber Prices Rise; Rain Curbs Tapping (Sept 3)

Physical prices of Thai USS3 rubber climb to THB77.29-THB77.77/kg from THB76.11-THB76.76/kg Friday, tracking strong gains on Tocom and Shanghai; arrivals are also low under 100 tons due to rain in south Thailand recently, which limits tapping. Outside the central markets, factories are paying around THB80/kg.

Sales in Thailand’s three main central markets total around 67.6 tons Monday versus 42.9 tons Friday: 0.6 tons in Hat Yai, 40 tons in Surat Thani, 27 tons in Chandee.

Source : Dow Jones

[Mosha]

Rain curbs tapping? 555 That is what is known as an understatement 1 day tapping in 3 weeks

[glennb6]

FYI, collected from farm this morning (ok but not great) and ran it to the factory to sell. I think wife got 69b drc kee, but what I was surprised at is their very low level of kee inventory. Normally it looks like a few football fields of kee piled two meters high, today they didn't even have half that.

Supposedly good news is that latex may be flowing sufficiently from our trees to start making mat. The not great news is that one worker when I asked him gee-meet (how many taps) and he says see-meet and holding up three fingers....

[thaiguzzi]

Wife makes some obviously acidic liquid for adding to cups ....fruit skins & leafs in a bucket of water.

David,

Yeah, my missus did something similar last year. Bought a seasonal fruit, about 500 baht's worth - a lot - looks like a large lemon, cut them up, added a bunch (lot) of sugar and got a 200 litre barrel and filled it 3/4 full with water and mixed it all up, after a week it was fermenting, we kept a lid on it, and used it throughout last year on the 450 trees she cut. Worked very very well. And a bonus being it's completely natural. Smelled good too, and possibly could have even been drunk.

Mike.

[cobbler]

Think we have a miss understanding here, don't think I said formic acid, just acid. No idea what it is, but they call it organic acid.

We don't use it everyday just when you know the rain is coming, but you have time to start tapping. Not one of my to do's to go and watch when the rain is coming. As I said you don't get much, but it keep food on the table for the tappers and us. Jim

Hi Jim,Are you feeding your workers at night when they are tapping?Or was that just a figure of speach

[cobbler]

Just as a matter of interest.You guys have tappers from down here working at your area.Actually they are Myanmar.Meanwhile our mountain farm neighbour ,who happens to be a doctor,has tappers from Udon area Issan.This is the 3rd lot of workers from Issan he's had and all of them have stollen from him in the 12 months since we've had that farm..This 1 is even worse than the last 1.He is stealing yang from the owner,and to make it more interesting he's lazey as well.But you should see his vegie garden,it's awsome..

The doctor is now selling his yang farm.

Cheers Cobbler

Edited September 4, 2012 by cobbler

[jamescollister]

Think we have a miss understanding here, don't think I said formic acid, just acid. No idea what it is, but they call it organic acid.

We don't use it everyday just when you know the rain is coming, but you have time to start tapping. Not one of my to do's to go and watch when the rain is coming. As I said you don't get much, but it keep food on the table for the tappers and us. Jim

Hi Jim,Are you feeding your workers at night when they are tapping?Or was that just a figure of speach

No, just when times are hard people need to eat and a little money is better than none. Tonight the tappers started tapping at sundown, rain may come in the morning, but better to tap and get some income. Things will get better, but to most Thais it's live in the moment, if you have money today spent, tommorrow will be OK. Jim

[SonnyWaxmo]

Hi Cobbler

This prick kee gnoo you talked about, have you planted them between rubber trees, or somwhere else?

Regards

Sonny

Between the rubber trees.They don't go well in full sun/.Leaves go all curly.This is why they are 200 baht per kilo wholesale price in dry season and 90 to 100 baht per kilo in low times.They should be ready to pick chillis in february next year.Pickers are paid on a percentage of sale price from local middle men,which is less than price we will be selling them for at a main market.Our trees are spaced 3 meters apart and rows are 7 meters apart..We clear a strip down te center of the row and put 2 lines of chillis spaced 1 meter apart to allow pickers to walk down the center.We also have bananas down the center too.I can't see rubber prices improving any time in the next 2 to 3 years.So we like to make extra money.So far we have 2000 seedlings in the ground with another 3000 seedlings still in the nursery boxes. Really it's quicker and easier and the plants are tougher younger if you just plant the seeds straight into the cleared rows between the trees.Good if the soil is wet at time of planting..Really I'm tempted to fill the whole 20 rai with chillis between the trees,but not sure I can do it all.My wife is already working too hard.We will see what happens.

Thank you for this very detailed reply, let us hear later how it develop.

Thanks

Sonny

[cobbler]

Yes Jim I understand.Sometimes I wonder how the workers survive.If not getting much mats for what ever reason they don't have much money.If you can see that your workers are good and not spending all there money on whiskey ,then you can't help but feel for them.It's a bit of a balancing act,for the worker and the owner.We have a Mon (Myanmar from no mans land in Myanmar) He's a really good family man.Has wife and 2 month baby girl.Price of yang is shit and not getting much mats.I don't know how he copes with the stress.He's been digging banana holes for the new trees we are getting so that's a bit extra for him.But still I guess it's much better that what they come from.

Keep yall posted on prik progress

Cheers Cobbler

[Mobaan]

Something a bit different:

Is there anything like TOO TALL rubber trees .?

Last Junw our trees were exactly 1 year old -time for some statistics. The average hight came to just over 3 meters ,with some trees pushing to near 4 meters and a bunch of stragglers who did not yet reach the 2 meter mark.

We added compost in the planting holes ,watered during the Dry , and I liked to wlk the trees with a bucket of fertilizer in hand , giving some encouragement to the ones who seem to need it.

We planted 251 and replaced what needed with 600 ( could not get any 251 any more ). We had to put 2.5 meter bamboo stakes with the trees to keep them up . Some , even thou about 4-5 cm thick stems , were so week they lay flat on the ground (and some broke slap off ) without the supports.

I have held back on the N fertilizer ,but still add P andK .

Any comments ?

[jamescollister]

Something a bit different:

Is there anything like TOO TALL rubber trees .?

Last Junw our trees were exactly 1 year old -time for some statistics. The average hight came to just over 3 meters ,with some trees pushing to near 4 meters and a bunch of stragglers who did not yet reach the 2 meter mark.

We added compost in the planting holes ,watered during the Dry , and I liked to wlk the trees with a bucket of fertilizer in hand , giving some encouragement to the ones who seem to need it.

We planted 251 and replaced what needed with 600 ( could not get any 251 any more ). We had to put 2.5 meter bamboo stakes with the trees to keep them up . Some , even thou about 4-5 cm thick stems , were so week they lay flat on the ground (and some broke slap off ) without the supports.

I have held back on the N fertilizer ,but still add P andK .

Any comments ?

You need to put supports up for the trees, but only some of the way, let the tops hang down , they will grow stronger as they reach for the sun. Ain't call rubber trees for nothing. 251s bend and brake in the wind or just fall over. A few light lines will keep them up right, as in thin rope or string. It's a problem, but they will grow as long as they don;t snap or uproot. If they up root just pull the up again and use stay ropes until they get their roots re established. That's why you need to be around, the Thais will normal just leave them to their own future. Jim

[scotbeve]

Something a bit different:

Is there anything like TOO TALL rubber trees .?

Last Junw our trees were exactly 1 year old -time for some statistics. The average hight came to just over 3 meters ,with some trees pushing to near 4 meters and a bunch of stragglers who did not yet reach the 2 meter mark.

We added compost in the planting holes ,watered during the Dry , and I liked to wlk the trees with a bucket of fertilizer in hand , giving some encouragement to the ones who seem to need it.

We planted 251 and replaced what needed with 600 ( could not get any 251 any more ). We had to put 2.5 meter bamboo stakes with the trees to keep them up . Some , even thou about 4-5 cm thick stems , were so week they lay flat on the ground (and some broke slap off ) without the supports.

I have held back on the N fertilizer ,but still add P andK .

Any comments ?

You need to put supports up for the trees, but only some of the way, let the tops hang down , they will grow stronger as they reach for the sun. Ain't call rubber trees for nothing. 251s bend and brake in the wind or just fall over. A few light lines will keep them up right, as in thin rope or string. It's a problem, but they will grow as long as they don;t snap or uproot. If they up root just pull the up again and use stay ropes until they get their roots re established. That's why you need to be around, the Thais will normal just leave them to their own future. Jim

Were your trees pruned properly? Normally, when the trees "seem too high and too flexible", it's an indication of too much fertilizer. I had about 300 trees like this and our manager said that he thinks there was too much fertilizer used.

[Mosha]

Sky's a funny colour, and there is a yellow UFO up there too.

[Mosha]

1st cut in weeks last night, 36 mats out of 800 trees

[glennb6]

Can a few of y'all post the price you're getting for RSS ?

thx

[scotbeve]

Can a few of y'all post the price you're getting for RSS ?

thx

5 days ago at the Rubber farmers assoc. office here in Chiang Mai the price for RSS was 84 baht and change.

[jamescollister]

Can a few of y'all post the price you're getting for RSS ?

thx

5 days ago at the Rubber farmers assoc. office here in Chiang Mai the price for RSS was 84 baht and change.

Scot was that what you were told they were paying, or was that what you were paid. From memory RSS never got over 82 Baht at the wholesale auctions.

Being told all the time of places paying good prices, but they never seems to be anyone who has got the cash in hand. Have sold some sheet through the co op, they were talking 90 Baht after the rubber was auctioned down south. 2 weeks and still no price set. Jim

[scotbeve]

Hi James,

Yes, this is what the rubber assoc. for Chiang Mai province was paying as of 5 days ago. This is posted on a sign in front of the office on the second ring road about 1 - 1.5 km from the Chiang Mai Salagan (provincial seat / office). Unfortunately, we're not doing RSS - we will do USS next year or crepe rubber. At the moment, it's STILL raining up in Mae Ai, Fang , and Chai Prakan no tapping done yet. We will be doing cup lump this year only.... last price known of cup lump (last week) in the north was 54 baht but was not posted with the RSS & USS prices I saw 5 days ago. My sister-in-law is one of the representatives of the north (head of 3 amphurs) and she gave us an estimate of 45 - 50 baht for cup lump last week. I'm still upbeat for long term decent profits for our 140 rai. I based our budget / profit on a 50 - 55 baht/kg for USS. Anything above that is a (holiday) bonus!

[jamescollister]

Hi James,

Yes, this is what the rubber assoc. for Chiang Mai province was paying as of 5 days ago. This is posted on a sign in front of the office on the second ring road about 1 - 1.5 km from the Chiang Mai Salagan (provincial seat / office). Unfortunately, we're not doing RSS - we will do USS next year or crepe rubber. At the moment, it's STILL raining up in Mae Ai, Fang , and Chai Prakan no tapping done yet. We will be doing cup lump this year only.... last price known of cup lump (last week) in the north was 54 baht but was not posted with the RSS & USS prices I saw 5 days ago. My sister-in-law is one of the representatives of the north (head of 3 amphurs) and she gave us an estimate of 45 - 50 baht for cup lump last week. I'm still upbeat for long term decent profits for our 140 rai. I based our budget / profit on a 50 - 55 baht/kg for USS. Anything above that is a (holiday) bonus!

This is where I find it hard to understand, if in fact they were paying 84 Baht, a person could go to the wholesale auction, buy truck loads at 80+ Baht, drive to the 84 Baht buyer and sell at a profit the next day.

Why would the buyers pay more for the rubber than they can at the auction.

I only go by what I get in my hand, yesterday sold wet cup [wet weight] 33 Baht a kilo. Jim

[scotbeve]

Hi James,

Yes, this is what the rubber assoc. for Chiang Mai province was paying as of 5 days ago. This is posted on a sign in front of the office on the second ring road about 1 - 1.5 km from the Chiang Mai Salagan (provincial seat / office). Unfortunately, we're not doing RSS - we will do USS next year or crepe rubber. At the moment, it's STILL raining up in Mae Ai, Fang , and Chai Prakan no tapping done yet. We will be doing cup lump this year only.... last price known of cup lump (last week) in the north was 54 baht but was not posted with the RSS & USS prices I saw 5 days ago. My sister-in-law is one of the representatives of the north (head of 3 amphurs) and she gave us an estimate of 45 - 50 baht for cup lump last week. I'm still upbeat for long term decent profits for our 140 rai. I based our budget / profit on a 50 - 55 baht/kg for USS. Anything above that is a (holiday) bonus!

This is where I find it hard to understand, if in fact they were paying 84 Baht, a person could go to the wholesale auction, buy truck loads at 80+ Baht, drive to the 84 Baht buyer and sell at a profit the next day.

Why would the buyers pay more for the rubber than they can at the auction.

I only go by what I get in my hand, yesterday sold wet cup [wet weight] 33 Baht a kilo. Jim

Indeed, hopefully this is a bit of a paradigm that can catch on.... but in the mean time, it appears to be a paradox at first glance. Why don't you go down to the provincial rubber office and check out the sign in front. Take a picture and post it. I'll do the same at the Chiang Mai office. Any others that have time could do the same. These photos can then be compared with the website >>> http://www.rubberthai.com/emag/test.php This could prove very interesting and will give us an idea of any improper dealings throughout the country at provincial levels. I'll be back in Ch. Mai tomorrow and do just this!

[jamescollister]

Scot, have no idea what a provincial rubber office is. We have private buyers, Co ops and 2 Government agencies that buy. Only the private buyers set a price on sale. The Government buyers pay the wholesale auction price minus costs and an adim charge. The Co ops take the rubber to a bigger auction and on sale the price is set.

We have had both Gov and private buyers saying high prices, but when you go they down grade the rubber to grade 5, so never pay the advertised price.

As I said you can only go on what you get in your hand. Jim

[David006]

Hi James,

Yes, this is what the rubber assoc. for Chiang Mai province was paying as of 5 days ago. This is posted on a sign in front of the office on the second ring road about 1 - 1.5 km from the Chiang Mai Salagan (provincial seat / office). Unfortunately, we're not doing RSS - we will do USS next year or crepe rubber. At the moment, it's STILL raining up in Mae Ai, Fang , and Chai Prakan no tapping done yet. We will be doing cup lump this year only.... last price known of cup lump (last week) in the north was 54 baht but was not posted with the RSS & USS prices I saw 5 days ago. My sister-in-law is one of the representatives of the north (head of 3 amphurs) and she gave us an estimate of 45 - 50 baht for cup lump last week. I'm still upbeat for long term decent profits for our 140 rai. I based our budget / profit on a 50 - 55 baht/kg for USS. Anything above that is a (holiday) bonus!

This is where I find it hard to understand, if in fact they were paying 84 Baht, a person could go to the wholesale auction, buy truck loads at 80+ Baht, drive to the 84 Baht buyer and sell at a profit the next day.

Why would the buyers pay more for the rubber than they can at the auction.

I only go by what I get in my hand, yesterday sold wet cup [wet weight] 33 Baht a kilo. Jim

ouch ...we got 35bt/kilo day before yesterday here in the south..guess it's eggs and rice for a bit and no new truck till 2013..lol

Mind you still remember 24bt a kilo a few years back

Edited September 11, 2012 by David006

[Mosha]

David is that mats or kee yang?

[scotbeve]

Scot, have no idea what a provincial rubber office is. We have private buyers, Co ops and 2 Government agencies that buy. Only the private buyers set a price on sale. The Government buyers pay the wholesale auction price minus costs and an adim charge. The Co ops take the rubber to a bigger auction and on sale the price is set.

We have had both Gov and private buyers saying high prices, but when you go they down grade the rubber to grade 5, so never pay the advertised price.

As I said you can only go on what you get in your hand. Jim

Jim,

Every province (growing rubber) has a rubber office! Try the transliteration here... OngKan Yang Para and ask where it is in (Korat??) or (Udon??) - the province you live in. Just got back to CM and will be going down the road literally 4 km to the "rubber office" in the morning to take pics. Perhaps your govt. buyers are not what they appear to be.