British Ecstasy Dealer Sentenced To 7 Years Jail

[Heng]

As they say, Thai prisons are built to jail the poor and the stupid. Apparently this fellow was both.

[rcalsop]

People have a choice whether they buy drugs such as E or not.  The risk of death from allergic reaction is tiny.  People don't have a choice if they get raped, scarred or killed.

The sentences should be very different.  Thai legal system still has a lot to learn before it can be classed as "developed" and "fair".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The risk of death from allergic reaction is tiny ( a murder is mostly 1 person at a time , a rape is one person at a time) no risk of death by another hand is acceptable .

Written from the perspective of a father who had his 18 year old daughter killed by being slipped drugs ( she knew she had severe allergic reaction to all sorts of things and carried special medication so knew experimentation was not an option )

The dealer who believed she was only a party pooper when she said NO to trying a drug ( his words ) slipped her drugs so she could loosen up and become his customer.... He was a murderer . This was in Spain the British /European justice system failed this time and to cut a long story short when he returned to Spain many expats and locals were very unhappy I had some good friends there..

The dealer is no longer a dealer , and he no longer parties

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then this person should have been dealt with to the full power of the law, murder or possibly manslaughter would have been wholly appropriate charge IMHO.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you misunderstand ,between the Spanish police ,and the UK system stupidities and technicalities meant the system failed to achieve a correct result , apologies and regrets by the powers that be were privately expressed to me ,but when the guy was released and recommenced his trade he had overstepped the rules of the local syndicates /mafia underworld for want of a better description . I was quietly advised that he died of an overdose of a lethal cocktail of drugs and would no longer be a problem . There are rules and codes of behaviour at all levels.

[LivinLOS]

LivinLOS

I find it very hard to believe that you know MANY people who have been caught with 50 - 100 pills and got non custodial sentences.  There is no way you would get away with a simple possession charge for that, it would be supplying.  Even a suspended sentence for that amount would be unusual and would certainly lead to the police/CPS appealing against the sentence.  Yes it is possible to receive a non custodial sentence, but that is based on previous good character, pleading guilty and  co-operating on where you bought them from etc.  This is the exception rather than the norm.

Well lets say 3 or so that I know of in the low end of that range that were close and a few others not so close.. Also 80 LSD tabs for a non custodial etc..

Some of these people had priors but priors for non class A drugs (pot etc).

A woman I know in Holland was given a simple warning for 80 E's in an Amsterdam club.. She lost her driving licnce because she failed a later pre dated drug test (can you image how stupid she would have to be to fail a drug test when they tell you week in advance you WILL have a test on this date ?!?!?!

As to the comments that if caught in a club you will always be charged with.. In general if caught in a club security just poaches them and farms them out to their own boys.

[Heng]

Same drug those creeps in Aruba gave the Holloway kid.  Along with booze, it apparently mows down all defenses.

Off topic, but how do you know she was drugged? Is this net rumour or did those kids confess to it at some point?

[LivinLOS]

I think you misunderstand ,between the Spanish police ,and the UK system stupidities and technicalities meant the system failed to achieve a correct result , apologies and regrets by the powers that be  were privately expressed to me ,but when the guy was released and recommenced  his trade he had overstepped the rules of the local syndicates /mafia  underworld for want of a better description . I was quietly  advised  that he died of an overdose of a lethal cocktail of drugs and would no longer be a problem . There are rules and codes of behaviour at all levels.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guessed the subtext first time..

My comment was that I do not in any way advocate tolerance for the act he commited and in a suitable system he should have been charged very heavily..

I disagree with heavy sentancing for drug use simply due to the fact that for all the years of 'wars on drugs' its never worked.. Holland also shows that its not really necessary.. If the money spent on drug 'wars' was spent on drug education, drug counselling, drug rehabilitation, etc.. If the supply side was clean.. If those markets were taxes and those taxes used to pay for all of the above society as a whole would benefit..

My condolences for your daughter, it was a tragedy and an unneccessary waste of a life. That said drug use is not bad for all people.. Just as there is responsible drinking there is responsible drug use.. You could argue that a great many artistic legacies and improvements to many peoples lives through those legacies are all very attributable to 'drugs'..

[silk123]

That brit was lucky he did not have lots of money in his room or that it's now and not 3 years ago or he would be dead and have fell down a well or commited suicide of a building.

I notice in phuket that it is always only tiny amount of drugs that are reported found from the dealers.

[Maejo Man]

I feel sorry for the guy. Drugs nearly killed me and certainly made me do things ............... Have some compassion for this poor guy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No sympathy what so ever! He made his choice to be a drug dealer, and you made yours. Nobody twisted his arm to do it.

[StateSix]

LivinLOS

I find it very hard to believe that you know MANY people who have been caught with 50 - 100 pills and got non custodial sentences.  There is no way you would get away with a simple possession charge for that, it would be supplying.  Even a suspended sentence for that amount would be unusual and would certainly lead to the police/CPS appealing against the sentence.  Yes it is possible to receive a non custodial sentence, but that is based on previous good character, pleading guilty and  co-operating on where you bought them from etc.  This is the exception rather than the norm.

Well lets say 3 or so that I know of in the low end of that range that were close and a few others not so close.. Also 80 LSD tabs for a non custodial etc..

Some of these people had priors but priors for non class A drugs (pot etc).

A woman I know in Holland was given a simple warning for 80 E's in an Amsterdam club.. She lost her driving licnce because she failed a later pre dated drug test (can you image how stupid she would have to be to fail a drug test when they tell you week in advance you WILL have a test on this date ?!?!?!

As to the comments that if caught in a club you will always be charged with.. In general if caught in a club security just poaches them and farms them out to their own boys.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would suggest that they were very lucky and must have pleaded guilty etc as, in my experience, the courts tend to take a dim view, especially of those who don't plead guilty. I bet the police were extremely unhappy about a non custodial sentence for 80 LSD tabs, especially as they are class A.

Regarding the club 'security' guys, I worked in one of the largest busiest clubs in Manchester for 6 years and know what you mean. Our guys were pretty straight, but I know some of the other clubs were a nightmare. Look at what happened at the Hacienda. The irony is that if you confiscate all the drugs and hand it all over to the police, the Licencing department look to close you down because you attract drugs.

[Neeranam]

QUOTE(Neeranam @ 2005-10-06 10:21:24)

I feel sorry for the guy. Drugs nearly killed me and certainly made me do things ............... Have some compassion for this poor guy.

*

No sympathy what so ever! He made his choice to be a drug dealer, and you made yours. Nobody twisted his arm to do it.

Compassion is not the same as sympathy.

I don't want to get off topic even more, but...

I was never a bad guy when I was doing the things I did because of drugs, I was sick.

Many drug dealers don't make a choice, they have no option due to their sickness.

Many drug dealers are pure evil. I don't know what this guy was/is. Don't even know if he was an addict.

I work with drug addicts and they are not bad people, they are sick people trying to get better. Many of them go on to prison, many of them die, a few are getting better.

I have a choice whether to help these people or let them commit crime and rot in jail. I have made the decision to help.

[slim]

If you have 18 pills in your personal possession in a club then you are definitely getting arrested for, and almost certainly charged with, possession with intent to supply. I know that tolerance builds and heavy users can get through many pills in a night, but there is something suspicious about having 18 in your possession in a club. Even if he was holding them for friends the law still views this as an intention to supply them. Were they all for personal use, or was he holding them for friends? Ecstacy is also a class A substance in the UK and as such dealing has a maximum sentence of life imprisonment. 4 years seems a bit long but possible reasons for it are he pleaded not guilty and he had previous for this or similar offences. Was he actually found guilty of possession, or possession with intent to supply?

Very good StateSix. He was holding them for friends and he was charged with dealing despite the evidence to the contrary and he refused to plead guilty to something he hadn't done.

Besides 18 pills over 12 hours is not really a lot if you're a regular user (he was busted at Danny Tenaglia's magnificent 12 hour set at Sankeys Soap in Manchester).

He had no previous convictions for any offense.

So 4 years wasn't a bit harsh it was ludicrously harsh so much so that the prosecution counsel was so shocked they argued with the judge that the sentence was ridiculous for a first offence but it stood nonetheless.

But this is losing site of the original point I was making in answer to britmaverick's post.

Unfortunately no different in the West - probably would have got off scott free. Influence/dosh in most cases will always get you out of trouble.

He cant be talking about the UK here as trying to bribe your way out of trouble with the Uk police is a certain recipe for imprisonment and does he really think a UK copper is going to throw away his career and freedom for a few quid?

Edited October 6, 2005 by slim

[idiomist]

Can we be logical?

If we ban drugs which change people's behaviour or place their health at risk, we should include alcohol and nicotine.

If we prosecute the man that sells E, we should also prosecute the local supermarket for selling 100 pipers.

Drugs have been part of human existence since pre-history. Instead of knee-jerk reactions comparing drug-dealers to murderers, we should be agreeing on an intelligent policy of legalising all drugs and taxing them to cover education on proper drug use and on care for the minority who end up with damaged livers (alcohol), lungs (nicotine) and minds (occasional users of ecstasy).

[fatter than harry]

Can we be logical?

If we ban drugs which change people's behaviour or place their health at risk, we should include alcohol and nicotine.

If we prosecute the man that sells E, we should also prosecute the local supermarket for selling 100 pipers.

Drugs have been part of human existence since pre-history. Instead of knee-jerk reactions comparing drug-dealers to murderers, we should be agreeing on an intelligent policy of legalising all drugs and taxing them to cover education on proper drug use and on care for the minority who end up with damaged livers (alcohol), lungs (nicotine) and minds (occasional users of ecstasy).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very well said.

I don't feel sorry for the guy, as many have said; "When in Rome"

Am I right in thinking that Thailand is one of the opium producers of the world? Golden Triangle and all that?

[haha]

Totally rediculous sentancing..

Police estimate he probably brought in 1000 pills (nice round number) jusdging by the size of the container they found some others in ?!?!? &lt;deleted&gt; !!!

50 pills could be gone through in 5 - 8 sessions by a heavy user.. Hard night on E probably less damaging socially and physically than a hard night on cheap alchohol..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...the issue here is legality.

thailand says it's against the law. so, don't do it.

why is it so hard for some people to understand this?

it doesn't matter if the punishment may be considered too excessive by many. ..just don't do it.

it seems to be a no brainer to me.

[Welsh John]

If the fine is not paid what happens??? Extra years?? Not sure how the system here works with regard to unpaid fines.

[cclub75]

mmm your logic is basically flawed as this is Thailand and Thai law - not EU or Middle east

Tone it down

remember when in Thailand do as the Thais do

That's all my point !

Thai legal system is flawed, not my logic.

Your comment reminds me all the beautifulls minds in the UN, or Asean, about Darfur or Burma : "Domestic affairs, non ingerence, it's not our problem... it's their customs... It's the way they do, we have to respect cultural differences bla bla bla bla".

Sorry sir, Charia in Muslim countries is EVIL. I mean wrong, for any human being (especially women). And sending a poor guy in jail for a few pills, this is wrong. OK, i take 2 extremities: but basically it's the same logic.

I believe western countries should not be ashamed anymore of our values.

I love thailand, I live in thailand, but I don't deal with the rosy "land of smile" fantasy.

[thai3]

apparently mows down all defenses.  Seven years in the slammer isn't enough.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are on another planet... As said before, murderers can get bail... For 30 pills no... This is insane.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So what more injustice would not improve things, this idiot got off lightly. -peter

[cutter007]

I bought a bag of corn chips the other day, they were made by the company Nabisco, which is also the same company that owns Phillip Morrison, the largest producer of cigerettes in the US.

So should I go to prison because I am supporting the death of millions of people who smoke.

That is the arguement that people are trying to make when they say that a guy selling a couple pills should rot in prison because he is ruining peoples lives.

Why stop with this guy, lets lock everyone up that commits an act that causes someone else misfortune. Oops no one left on the other side to turn the key.

The guys in jail, because some Thai politican says drugs are bad now, maybe next week it will be something different.

I don't do drugs, but I hope/fear that I don't enjoy the activity that they chose next week or I might be in that jail with him.

He was stupid to sell drugs because the risk is not worth the return, but it is sad that we will lock him up, when so many people in the world run free to commit grave crimes against humanity.

[LivinLOS]

Its also kind of ironic that many of the big asian banks and trading houses as well as the current biggest drug dealers (the cig makers) sprung from Britians trading opium into China via HK out of the indian continent..

The whole silk and spice route was one of shifting opium from one territory and trying to get China as hooked on it as possible for trade4.. These families are the bankers and power elite of today..

[StateSix]

If you have 18 pills in your personal possession in a club then you are definitely getting arrested for, and almost certainly charged with, possession with intent to supply. I know that tolerance builds and heavy users can get through many pills in a night, but there is something suspicious about having 18 in your possession in a club. Even if he was holding them for friends the law still views this as an intention to supply them. Were they all for personal use, or was he holding them for friends? Ecstacy is also a class A substance in the UK and as such dealing has a maximum sentence of life imprisonment. 4 years seems a bit long but possible reasons for it are he pleaded not guilty and he had previous for this or similar offences. Was he actually found guilty of possession, or possession with intent to supply?

Very good StateSix. He was holding them for friends and he was charged with dealing despite the evidence to the contrary and he refused to plead guilty to something he hadn't done.

Besides 18 pills over 12 hours is not really a lot if you're a regular user (he was busted at Danny Tenaglia's magnificent 12 hour set at Sankeys Soap in Manchester).

He had no previous convictions for any offense.

So 4 years wasn't a bit harsh it was ludicrously harsh so much so that the prosecution counsel was so shocked they argued with the judge that the sentence was ridiculous for a first offence but it stood nonetheless.

But this is losing site of the original point I was making in answer to britmaverick's post.

Unfortunately no different in the West - probably would have got off scott free. Influence/dosh in most cases will always get you out of trouble.

He cant be talking about the UK here as trying to bribe your way out of trouble with the Uk police is a certain recipe for imprisonment and does he really think a UK copper is going to throw away his career and freedom for a few quid?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ahhh Sankeys Soap. Had many a good night in that place in my younger, more carefree days.

Ok I will have it that 4 years for a first offence for possessing 18 pills is above what I would expect, and I bet the police involved were a bit shocked too. I would have expected that sentence to be cut if an appeal had been made.

However, he did commit the offence of possessing drugs with the intent to supply. The law does not discriminate between selling for profit and holding them for friends. The second he hands a pill to his friend (or admits he would have handed a friend one if asked) he is supplying in the eyes of the law. This would have been explained to the jury who really would have no option, from a point of law, but to find him guilty of the offence. By pleading not guilty (I am assuming that when interviewed by the police he admitted holding them for friends), he would p*ss the judge off a bit and they do substantially increase sentences to reflect this. His barrister would have been made fully aware of this by the judge before the case went to trial. If he had pleaded guilty he would never have received a sentence this harsh. It does seem unfair when you read about other people who viciously assault someone, nearly killing them and get a suspended sentence. Believe me I am have experienced first hand the inconsistency of sentencing in the UK and it is very frustrating.

Regarding being able to bribe your way out if jail in the UK, it is virtually impossible. You would need to have seriously influential connections to even contemplate getting away with something like that if it is a serious offence. Very, very few officers have the ability to influence a case like this (by losing evidence or intimidating witnesses etc), and there is a very high chance of getting caught and getting banged up yourself.

[Maejo Man]

I bought a bag of corn chips the other day, they were made by the company Nabisco, which is also the same company that owns Phillip Morrison, the largest producer of cigerettes in the US.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I used to play golf with Phillip morrison and I never knew he made cigarettes

My final post on the subject.....The law in Thailand is NO DRUGS! No if's but's or and's or "well it was only for my own use" If you want to sniff, snort, inject, swallow them, be prepared to face serious jail time. It's the law, and if you don't like it....don't do it, or better still, leave........

[carlthailand]

To easy to get dragged into a two sided argument.

Drugs are bad. M'Kay.

I think you will find the drug problem of the 19th century was rife with a snorting problem.

I say each to his own. Just not in a country with laws that are bad.

The old farts and goodie two shoes say, should of got more, should of this, should of that.

Bah humbug.

Wait to alcohol and cigs get banned. Then lets see you behave yourself.

Can see it now.

It's a peer pressure thing too.

This comes from several years experience in the club scene. Running a club that is.

Harsh sentence maybe in the west. However, TIT.

Leave the drugs and do them in your own country where the penalties aren't as severe FOR a user. DEALERS SOM NAM NA. Really.

###### they always catch the small dealers. NOT the true Mr Bigs of these operations.

Edited October 6, 2005 by carlthailand

[slim]

The law does not discriminate between selling for profit and holding them for friends.

Which, I believe, is something that is up for possible review and not before time.

As far as I know possession alone in Thailand will get you banged up.

Does anyone know anybody who has been caught with half a dozen pills and been cautioned?

I'd expect they'd use the old "we found an empty Paracetamol bottle in his hotel room that we imagine had contained Ecstacy and/or Ya Ba possibly..." ploy.

You can't even smoke a bit of puff these days without the fear of arrest so the advice has to be dont do anything.

Just go to Samui and buy some mushrooms - as far as I know they're not illegal (yet).

Edited October 6, 2005 by slim

[LivinLOS]

Ohh yes they are..

Reggae cafe was busted on Phuket a while back (very curious that as word is that thier supply get topped up from.. Ohh never mind) and they found dried mushrooms..

I have no idea if Thai law considers dried or processed mushrooms illegal v growining ones not.. In fact how could they consider growing wild shrooms on your land illegal ?? Mother Nature, your for it now luv..

Edited October 6, 2005 by LivinLOS

[meemiathai]

LivinLOS

I find it very hard to believe that you know MANY people who have been caught with 50 - 100 pills and got non custodial sentences.  There is no way you would get away with a simple possession charge for that, it would be supplying.  Even a suspended sentence for that amount would be unusual and would certainly lead to the police/CPS appealing against the sentence.  Yes it is possible to receive a non custodial sentence, but that is based on previous good character, pleading guilty and  co-operating on where you bought them from etc.  This is the exception rather than the norm.

Well lets say 3 or so that I know of in the low end of that range that were close and a few others not so close.. Also 80 LSD tabs for a non custodial etc..

Some of these people had priors but priors for non class A drugs (pot etc).

A woman I know in Holland was given a simple warning for 80 E's in an Amsterdam club.. She lost her driving licnce because she failed a later pre dated drug test (can you image how stupid she would have to be to fail a drug test when they tell you week in advance you WILL have a test on this date ?!?!?!

As to the comments that if caught in a club you will always be charged with.. In general if caught in a club security just poaches them and farms them out to their own boys.

I would suggest that they were very lucky and must have pleaded guilty etc as, in my experience, the courts tend to take a dim view, especially of those who don't plead guilty. I bet the police were extremely unhappy about a non custodial sentence for 80 LSD tabs, especially as they are class A.

Regarding the club 'security' guys, I worked in one of the largest busiest clubs in Manchester for 6 years and know what you mean. Our guys were pretty straight, but I know some of the other clubs were a nightmare. Look at what happened at the Hacienda. The irony is that if you confiscate all the drugs and hand it all over to the police, the Licencing department look to close you down because you attract drugs.

In HK, ketamine and ecstasies are almost served on the table in open view in some of the clubs(discos). Security there will never bother about it instead they try to ensure you take good care of the drugs and not get caught by the police.

And the owners of these clubs are the ones who sell drugs.

[meemiathai]

I bought a bag of corn chips the other day, they were made by the company Nabisco, which is also the same company that owns Phillip Morrison, the largest producer of cigerettes in the US.

So should I go to prison because I am supporting the death of millions of people who smoke.

That is the arguement that people are trying to make when they say that a guy selling a couple pills should rot in prison because he is ruining peoples lives.

Why stop with this guy, lets lock everyone up that commits an act that causes someone else misfortune. Oops no one left on the other side to turn the key.

The guys in jail, because some Thai politican says drugs are bad now, maybe next week it will be something different.

I don't do drugs, but I hope/fear that I don't enjoy the activity that they chose next week or I might be in that jail with him.

He was stupid to sell drugs because the risk is not worth the return, but it is sad that we will lock him up, when so many people in the world run free to commit grave crimes against humanity.

I like your post.

[gburns57au]

It is Thailand.....

It is their Law and their right to administer as they see fit to local and Farang alike....

If you go there and intend to break Thai laws then be prepared to face the system Thai style not Western style.

If you dont like it....dont go there

Simple really.

No sympathy

[Pattaya_Fox]

Absolutely agree gburns....this guy was not only greedy but stupid as well and in my opinion deserves whatever punishment he has been given...he`s dealt in the ecstacy now he`ll have to suffer the agony.

[britmaveric]

Absolutely agree gburns....this guy was not only greedy but stupid as well and in my opinion deserves whatever punishment he has been given...he`s dealt in the ecstacy now he`ll have to suffer the agony.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Either stupid or a nutter to mess w/any illegal narcotic in SEA -

[Fast Eddie]

The guy has clearly been very foolish, and to some extent i have a lack of sympathy as he must have known the severity of the punishment waiting for him, were he to be caught. But seven years is extremely harsh for what he has done. At the end of the day he has provided a substance of relatively low risk to the user, to consenting people who want to have a good time. Does he really deserve to lose seven years of his life?

[OlRedEyes]

They should outlaw small minds...

Forums are full of 'If you don't like it, leave'. Maybe thats why the suicide rate is so high.

'This is Thailand, obey the law'. Drinking after 2am in a bar? Partaking in the delicasies (sp) on offer in the prolific prostitution industry? Mmmm... no , that's ok.

'Its the damned poverty packers...'

Hypocrisy and one-sided thought permeates the forums like rotten treacle. (Does treacle go rotten?)

Because what you do isn't being cracked down upon, there can be no discussion. How f*in small-minded. Most of these self-rightous idiots wouldn't have survived during Prohibition.

Right or wrong, if you cannot discuss it, rather say nothing, that way the smallness of the mind is not revealed...

Is it illegal to discuss drugs, prostitution and culture?