Cover-Up

[IanForbes]

Now, we could also have the young man put in prison. But, what purpose would that serve, other than revenge?

Revenge is when an individual takes the law into his own hands. Justice is the role of government.

You are joking, right? Osama Bin Laden comes to mind.

[happyrobert]

The police know and are complicit in this. I understand it was their suggestion. As far as I know alcohol was not an issue. Just carelessness. The driver had his backpack on his left shoulder. It slipped off his shoulder down his arm. While adjusting it he lost control and crashed.

[happyrobert]

The police know and are complicit in this. I understand it was their suggestion. As far as I know alcohol was not an issue. Just carelessness. The driver had his backpack on his left shoulder. It slipped off his shoulder down his arm. While adjusting it he lost control and crashed.

Well, PJ, if this were the States and you withheld this knowledge, you would be an accessory-after-the-fact in a homicide (yes, you nitpickers, vehicular manslaughter, or neg driving resulting in a death IS a homicide). The driver was negligent. Someone died.

But this is Thailand, so who knows?

If it were me, I would be bound by personal integrity and honor to inform the dead boy's parents. Preferably in a way that would not cause all hell to break loose in my own life. A letter perhaps, anonymous, of course.

A boy died here. Maybe Thai and some of the other posters here take it lightly, mai pen rai, but I do not.

And I do not think you do either, do you?

[SteeleJoe]

I'll have to agree with Ian on this one.

A couple of years ago, the daughter of one of my neighbour and her friend, both of them was 14 at this time, had a motorcycle accident. The girl was driving and was badly injured, the passenger died. Same as the OP, the dead girl was officially identified as the driver.

What good will it make to make the girl responsible ? They both were where they shouldn't be, they both were drunk, the girl has no money, her family doesn't have any money either. The girl has been in and out of the hospital for the past few years, she will probably never walk properly again.

What good will it make to tell the "truth" ?

PS : Both families know what really happen, they both agree on the police report.

The last sentence is what makes this case completely different.

If both families agreed to this, then maybe I could agree with it...

[happyrobert]

Now, we could also have the young man put in prison. But, what purpose would that serve, other than revenge?

Revenge is when an individual takes the law into his own hands. Justice is the role of government.

You are joking, right? Osama Bin Laden comes to mind.

I am talking within the rule of law. OBL was extrajudicial.

[SteeleJoe]

Now, we could also have the young man put in prison. But, what purpose would that serve, other than revenge?

Revenge is when an individual takes the law into his own hands. Justice is the role of government.

You are joking, right? Osama Bin Laden comes to mind.

I am talking within the rule of law. OBL was extrajudicial.

Maybe. But is this the place to get into that?

[IanForbes]

Maybe. But is this the place to get into that?

No it's not. I'm just pointing out that so called justice can be a nebulous item and it changes depending on who makes the rules.

[happyrobert]

Maybe. But is this the place to get into that?

No it's not. I'm just pointing out that so called justice can be a nebulous item and it changes depending on who makes the rules.

And you want to make your own here?

What do you think the dead boy's parents want?

[hhgz]

"The sons of civil servants with a cop in the family never go to jail. Am I right?"

No, not at all. The only reason that the particular individual did not go to jail was the fact that people lied for him. If they told the truth, the guy might have gone to jail. Thailand has its own rules, and here are a couple examples. Recently, a young woman, without a driver's license and without her parent's permission, caused a traffic accident that killed 9 people. During her preliminary hearing she cried, apologized, her family gave the victims' families money...and that was it. Even more recently, a guy took his father's car without permission, drove recklessly, killed a young girl, and fled the accident scene. Days later he returned to apologize, and his father provided compensation to the girl's family...and that was it. In Thailand, apparently, apologizing absolves the guilty party of any wrongdoing.

Several months ago, a 14-year old boy burned down his school, claiming that he was tired of going to school. Immediately, the government investigated on why schools gave too much homework. Neither the boy nor his family were ever charged with anything. In Malaysia, they have a different perspective. A couple months ago, a 14-year old boy assaulted a teacher, breaking her nose. The student was oh-so-sorry and, despite apologizing profusely and promising never ever to do anything like that in the future, was convicted and sentenced to 7 years in jail.

[happyrobert]

Maybe. But is this the place to get into that?

Yes, we do. That is what this post is all about, Joe. Staying within the rule of law. Look what a mess things become, how much division is caused, when we do not. Especially when authorities do not...like the police in this matter. Revolting excuses for law enforcement. Rest asured they would not have done this for free.

Some things are cultural. Food, music, dance, literature, hand movements, etc. But honesty, integrity, courtesy, among others should be cross-cultural.

[SteeleJoe]

Maybe. But is this the place to get into that?

Yes, we do. That is what this post is all about, Joe. Staying within the rule of law. Look what a mess things become, how much division is caused, when we do not. Especially when authorities do not...like the police in this matter. Revolting excuses for law enforcement. Rest asured they would not have done this for free.

Some things are cultural. Food, music, dance, literature, hand movements, etc. But honesty, integrity, courtesy, among others should be cross-cultural.

I agree with all of that -- I've posted about some of thsoe things and "Rule of Law" specifically in posts in the last 2 days (one just 10 min ago) -- except the "Yes, we do"...

Do what?

I don't think this thread is the place to get into a debate about the legality of what happened with ObL. That debate, while a valid and important one, is inherently contentious, complex and lengthy and will lead to so may more things that have little or nothing to do with the OP.

The OP is asking a simple question about a matter that is already complex enough. I'm the last one to be rigid about keeping to topics -- I tend to think this place is too strict about that -- but there are times when I feel to do other wise is inappropriate and/or counterproductive; discussion of US foreign policy decisions,ROE, what we do and don't know about what actually happened in that compound and so on seems not only well off-topic to me but bound to overwhelm the original nature of the thread

[IanForbes]

This is Thailand we are talking about, not Europe or North America. Things are done differently in Thailand than in the west. Do I believe in justice... most definitely yes. Do I believe that lies get told all the time? Yes I do. Every case is different. Should the truth have been told at the beginning? Yes, I believe it should have. But, the case is ALREADY closed and I don't see any point in opening it because nothing will be resolved except more anguish, and possibly a jail term for a young man who most likely already feels terrible.

[F1fanatic]

"The sons of civil servants with a cop in the family never go to jail. Am I right?"

No, not at all. The only reason that the particular individual did not go to jail was the fact that people lied for him. If they told the truth, the guy might have gone to jail. Thailand has its own rules, and here are a couple examples. Recently, a young woman, without a driver's license and without her parent's permission, caused a traffic accident that killed 9 people. During her preliminary hearing she cried, apologized, her family gave the victims' families money...and that was it. Even more recently, a guy took his father's car without permission, drove recklessly, killed a young girl, and fled the accident scene. Days later he returned to apologize, and his father provided compensation to the girl's family...and that was it. In Thailand, apparently, apologizing absolves the guilty party of any wrongdoing.

Several months ago, a 14-year old boy burned down his school, claiming that he was tired of going to school. Immediately, the government investigated on why schools gave too much homework. Neither the boy nor his family were ever charged with anything. In Malaysia, they have a different perspective. A couple months ago, a 14-year old boy assaulted a teacher, breaking her nose. The student was oh-so-sorry and, despite apologizing profusely and promising never ever to do anything like that in the future, was convicted and sentenced to 7 years in jail.

Apologising AND being wealthy enough to afford to pay large sums to the victims's family absolves guilt....

[SteeleJoe]

This is Thailand we are talking about, not Europe or North America. Things are done differently in Thailand than in the west. Do I believe in justice... most definitely yes. Do I believe that lies get told all the time? Yes I do. Every case is different. Should the truth have been told at the beginning? Yes, I believe it should have. But, the case is ALREADY closed and I don't see any point in opening it because nothing will be resolved except more anguish, and possibly a jail term for a young man who most likely already feels terrible.

In any case, how things are done in the west is not the point (as you imply in your very first sentence) -- and it was you who brought the west into the thread in the first place.

*I tire of so many Farangs who understandably love their time in Thailand and what they get out of it who then, whenever somethign negative is pointed out, think 'Thailand is different and don't apply your western values here' is sufficient defense. The sentiment is in that statement is often a valid one and one I often share and espouse but most Thais I know and know of would agree that there are many ways in which Thailand should be more like the west -- Rule of Law being among them.

Perhaps the most surprising thing I've seen upon joining TV is how not uncommon it is to see people saying that corruption and poor enforcement of the law is one of the good things about Thailand. This "Things are done differently here" stuff is one of their blithe rationalizations

And as for the prevalence of lies being told (in general, worldwide?) then only a food would disagree but that too has nothing to do with anything and is useless as a justification for another lie.

[F1fanatic]

This is Thailand we are talking about, not Europe or North America. Things are done differently in Thailand than in the west. Do I believe in justice... most definitely yes. Do I believe that lies get told all the time? Yes I do. Every case is different. Should the truth have been told at the beginning? Yes, I believe it should have. But, the case is ALREADY closed and I don't see any point in opening it because nothing will be resolved except more anguish, and possibly a jail term for a young man who most likely already feels terrible.

Somehow I doubt that the guilty party will feel much anguish. Those with a conscience would have admitted the truth. Its only those without any feelings of guilt that blame somebody else.

[SteeleJoe]

This is Thailand we are talking about, not Europe or North America. Things are done differently in Thailand than in the west.

Things done differently in Thailand?

Maybe.

[richard_smith237]

Appalling that the police here are complicit in the filing of a false report and the wrongful apportion of blame. The family of the innocent guy are due compensation not just for his loss but also for death expenses such as the funeral. I would not be surprised if the coward that survived decides to pursue compensation from the family of the deceased.

I doubt the police know the truth - they will only know what they have been told by the survivors.

Presumably they were both drunk so neither family 'deserves' compensation...

Hopefully, the guilty party is not bad enough to claim compensation from the deceased's family.

The police know and are complicit in this. I understand it was their suggestion. As far as I know alcohol was not an issue. Just carelessness. The driver had his backpack on his left shoulder. It slipped off his shoulder down his arm. While adjusting it he lost control and crashed.

In light of these comments it appears as though this tragedy was an innocent but tragic accident. What's the reason for a cover up then?

[SteeleJoe]

Appalling that the police here are complicit in the filing of a false report and the wrongful apportion of blame. The family of the innocent guy are due compensation not just for his loss but also for death expenses such as the funeral. I would not be surprised if the coward that survived decides to pursue compensation from the family of the deceased.

I doubt the police know the truth - they will only know what they have been told by the survivors.

Presumably they were both drunk so neither family 'deserves' compensation...

Hopefully, the guilty party is not bad enough to claim compensation from the deceased's family.

The police know and are complicit in this. I understand it was their suggestion. As far as I know alcohol was not an issue. Just carelessness. The driver had his backpack on his left shoulder. It slipped off his shoulder down his arm. While adjusting it he lost control and crashed.

In light of these comments it appears as though this tragedy was an innocent but tragic accident. What's the reason for a cover up then?

Because (rightly or wrongly) the family of the dead boy might not be willing to let it go at that, as would be their right (and arguably understandable) -- and the police would actually have to enforce the law if they didn't?

That's the first reason that comes to mind.

Avoiding potential social stigma another.

Avoiding potential demands for compensation also a possibility (whose to say the police weren't rewarded for their complicity in this matter?)

[F1fanatic]

As I've said before, its unlikely the police know the truth - they will only know what they have been told by the survivors.

If the police knew, it would be down to compensating the victim. As this is not the case I suspect the police believe what they have been told.

[happyrobert]

This is Thailand we are talking about, not Europe or North America. Things are done differently in Thailand than in the west. Do I believe in justice... most definitely yes. Do I believe that lies get told all the time? Yes I do. Every case is different. Should the truth have been told at the beginning? Yes, I believe it should have. But, the case is ALREADY closed and I don't see any point in opening it because nothing will be resolved except more anguish, and possibly a jail term for a young man who most likely already feels terrible.

Somehow I doubt that the guilty party will feel much anguish. Those with a conscience would have admitted the truth. Its only those without any feelings of guilt that blame somebody else.

Thank you for that.

[happyrobert]

Maybe. But is this the place to get into that?

Yes, we do. That is what this post is all about, Joe. Staying within the rule of law. Look what a mess things become, how much division is caused, when we do not. Especially when authorities do not...like the police in this matter. Revolting excuses for law enforcement. Rest asured they would not have done this for free.

Some things are cultural. Food, music, dance, literature, hand movements, etc. But honesty, integrity, courtesy, among others should be cross-cultural.

I agree with all of that -- I've posted about some of thsoe things and "Rule of Law" specifically in posts in the last 2 days (one just 10 min ago) -- except the "Yes, we do"...

Do what?

I don't think this thread is the place to get into a debate about the legality of what happened with ObL. That debate, while a valid and important one, is inherently contentious, complex and lengthy and will lead to so may more things that have little or nothing to do with the OP.

The OP is asking a simple question about a matter that is already complex enough. I'm the last one to be rigid about keeping to topics -- I tend to think this place is too strict about that -- but there are times when I feel to do other wise is inappropriate and/or counterproductive; discussion of US foreign policy decisions,ROE, what we do and don't know about what actually happened in that compound and so on seems not only well off-topic to me but bound to overwhelm the original nature of the thread

Sorry, my bad. I meant, "Yes, it is...the place to get into it because this thread is all about doing things the right way. I did not bring up OBL, Ian did.

[SteeleJoe]

I did not bring up OBL, Ian did.

I know. And I said I didn't think this place to discuss that (and consequently your absolute statement of something as fact which actually isn't established as such), for reasons already detailed, and I still feel that way.

You disagree.

On the central issue we are in agreement it seems.

[manarak]

Accidents like that are situations where I don't really understand the necessity to always put the blame on someone.

The fact that there has been an accident does not necessarily mean the driver was at fault.

Responsible: yes, at fault: not necessarily.

The damage has been done, his friend died.

After that I don't really see any sense in sending the driver to prison.

Westerners are often obsessed by blaming people for tragic events.

If X or Y had done this or that, it wouldn't have happened.

Sure, in many cases people can be blamed for minor negligence that indirectly caused an accident.

On the prevention side, the amount of regulations, standards and insurances we have in Europe is just sickening, as well as the lawsuits going on for years.

I feel Thailand has more a "shit happens" approach, and after shit happened, one has to make the best out of it, even if it means changing the story about who drove the bike.

[SteeleJoe]

On the prevention side, the amount of regulations, standards and insurances we have in Europe is just sickening, as well as the lawsuits going on for years.

I feel Thailand has more a "shit happens" approach...

Problem is when you have a situation where there is no accountability then people and organziations are often not compelled to be as responsible as they should be in matters concerning others' safety.

Plenty of examples of that.

[pj123]

The police know and are complicit in this. I understand it was their suggestion. As far as I know alcohol was not an issue. Just carelessness. The driver had his backpack on his left shoulder. It slipped off his shoulder down his arm. While adjusting it he lost control and crashed.

Well, PJ, if this were the States and you withheld this knowledge, you would be an accessory-after-the-fact in a homicide (yes, you nitpickers, vehicular manslaughter, or neg driving resulting in a death IS a homicide). The driver was negligent. Someone died.

But this is Thailand, so who knows?

If it were me, I would be bound by personal integrity and honor to inform the dead boy's parents. Preferably in a way that would not cause all hell to break loose in my own life. A letter perhaps, anonymous, of course.

A boy died here. Maybe Thai and some of the other posters here take it lightly, mai pen rai, but I do not.

And I do not think you do either, do you?

No I don't. I thnk what kind of example is the father setting his children by condoing this. How can he have any credibility to give them guidance about their behaviour in the future? The excuse everyone in the family is giving is that he would go to jail. I would have more sympathy with them if this was true as I do not see the justice of putting him in jail for something like this. But I don't believe he is facing a jail sentence. Is this correct?

[manarak]

On the prevention side, the amount of regulations, standards and insurances we have in Europe is just sickening, as well as the lawsuits going on for years.

I feel Thailand has more a "shit happens" approach...

Problem is when you have a situation where there is no accountability then people and organziations are often not compelled to be as responsible as they should be in matters concerning others' safety.

Plenty of examples of that.

true.

but there are situations were accountability is good, and other situations where I don't see the point of going great lengths to find someone to blame, especially when there is no significant fault to be found and the blamed person's life can be made even more difficult.

Imagine your son in the same situation.

Police says the motorcycle was speeding at 60 instead of 50, the cause of the accident was a large wounded bird flying directly into your son's head, who was driving.

He loses control, the bike slides on its side, ejecting the passenger whose neck breaks against a signpost.

That's his story, because no trace of the bird can be found after the accident.

Your son is deeply shocked by what happened.

Normal procedure would be your son going to prison for a couple of years for reckless driving causing death.

But your wife, or maybe even the family of the deceased (if they are close friends) offers the switch.

What do you do?

[SteeleJoe]

On the prevention side, the amount of regulations, standards and insurances we have in Europe is just sickening, as well as the lawsuits going on for years.

I feel Thailand has more a "shit happens" approach...

Problem is when you have a situation where there is no accountability then people and organziations are often not compelled to be as responsible as they should be in matters concerning others' safety.

Plenty of examples of that.

true.

but there are situations were accountability is good, and other situations where I don't see the point of going great lengths to find someone to blame, especially when there is no significant fault to be found and the blamed person's life can be made even more difficult.

Imagine your son in the same situation.

Police says the motorcycle was speeding at 60 instead of 50, the cause of the accident was a large wounded bird flying directly into your son's head, who was driving.

He loses control, the bike slides on its side, ejecting the passenger whose neck breaks against a signpost.

That's his story, because no trace of the bird can be found after the accident.

Your son is deeply shocked by what happened.

Normal procedure would be your son going to prison for a couple of years for reckless driving causing death.

But your wife, or maybe even the family of the deceased (if they are close friends) offers the switch.

What do you do?

Sorry...went outside for a while....

First of all, if you are sure that your argument is sound for this case (otherwise, why would you make it), why make up a different scenario for your hypothetical situation with my son? Why not ask me what I'd do in this same case?

Secondly, in the scenario you describe I'm not all sure my son would go to prison for a couple of years. Nor am I certain it would apply in this one either (and I'm inclined to think not)

Third, I hope my son would exercise better judgment and moreover -- this make me a hypocrite because I spent much of my life in a passionate affair with motorcycles and started riding at 11-- I won't allow him to ride on the street or anywhere with a passenger (same rules I had to live with) as a minor. And I'd do my best to convince him to not do the latter until he had several years experience riding on the road.

Fourth, I was just saying to someone yesterday -- in reference to another issue and him saying "What if it was your daughter" - I always think these appeals to emotion are misplaced and serve poorly as a means to reach what can be considered the right stance: in the scenario you describe (and many others) I would do virtually anything I could to keep my son out of prison -- lying, bribery, maybe worse -- but I would be wrong to do so. If someone on TV posted about me doing it and said it was wrong, I'd never disagree.

It's like asking me whether what I would do if someone raped or killed my wife or children: I'd kill anyone who did that, without a qualm. But I'd obviously be breaking the law and while no doubt I'd prefer to get away with it, I do not want a society where a person is allowed to get away with such things as taking the law into their own hands.

In other words, whether it's my son or whomever's doesn't change what the right thing to do is (though clearly what that thing is is open to debate).

[manarak]

is truth always right?

I'm not sure.

[SteeleJoe]

is truth always right?

I'm not sure.

Nor am I. In fact I think sometimes perhaps it's not.

But we're not talking about "always". (At least I'm not). In this case? My feelings are mostly that the parents have a right to know and the boy needs to be held accountable (not necessarily punished) -- for his own sake, if nothing else.

[manarak]

accountable (not necessarily punished)

that rarely happens.

in general when they find a scapegoat, it will get slaughtered

justice is often revenge